Valve Pipeline(pipeline.valvesoftware.com)
pipeline.valvesoftware.com
Valve Pipeline
http://pipeline.valvesoftware.com/
19 comments
Aren't high schoolers the wrong crowd? I mean it lets them get their feet wet, but most (read: 99.99%) of high schoolers won't be valuable employees to a technology company.
They are cheap and you can cycle them quickly without too much grief until you find the good ones.
We (little ISP) get them for a few hours each day after school and put them to work answering phones. They get some work experience and credit under the high school's "industry as shop class" scheme.
The better ones get a job for the summer and a raise. If they show the right blend of bordom doing phone support combined with motivation to learn systems stuff we promote them and give them sysadmin projects.
Worst case they end up with some clerical work experience in a office environment. Best case they learn some combination of Sysadmin/Netadmin/Coder. Either way it beats working fast food or stocking shelves.
We (little ISP) get them for a few hours each day after school and put them to work answering phones. They get some work experience and credit under the high school's "industry as shop class" scheme.
The better ones get a job for the summer and a raise. If they show the right blend of bordom doing phone support combined with motivation to learn systems stuff we promote them and give them sysadmin projects.
Worst case they end up with some clerical work experience in a office environment. Best case they learn some combination of Sysadmin/Netadmin/Coder. Either way it beats working fast food or stocking shelves.
Absolutely, what a great program to be running.
Speaking as a high schooler, I think there are plenty of us out there who would be plenty helpful to a company like Valve. (I like to think I would be one of them!)
As for this project, I, for one, would like to learn about 3D rendering -- that's always been something that I'd admired from afar.
As for this project, I, for one, would like to learn about 3D rendering -- that's always been something that I'd admired from afar.
If you're seriously interested in learning about 3D rendering and have some programming (and some linear algebra) experience, you should look into Udacity's CS291 course.
https://www.udacity.com/course/cs291
https://www.udacity.com/course/cs291
Awesome, thanks! Programming experience I definitely have, and some linear algebra... although I'll be taking that course soon. Again, thanks!
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Valve is a company that has the margin and the culture to support products that don't pay an immediate return. That said, I see some immediate benefits:
1. This will attract a large pool of young talent and some of them will make direct contributions and contributions through feedback and interplay of ideas.
2. This creates goodwill in the developer and education community which helps experienced industry professionals to think more highly of Valve. They will be more likely to apply or recommend applying.
3. This, as has been said, improves conditions at Valve and helps to shine light on more stultified areas of the company.
1. This will attract a large pool of young talent and some of them will make direct contributions and contributions through feedback and interplay of ideas.
2. This creates goodwill in the developer and education community which helps experienced industry professionals to think more highly of Valve. They will be more likely to apply or recommend applying.
3. This, as has been said, improves conditions at Valve and helps to shine light on more stultified areas of the company.
I was a full time dev at 16, and believe that I was quite valuable to the company. Some other comments tell similar stories, so it seems like its not that rare. I wouldn't be so quick to say that high schoolers aren't valuable at all, but I do agree that most of them probably aren't.
You forget that Valve's offices are in Microsoft's backyard.
I helped out at http://studentrnd.com/ a few times. Hooooly crap. Some of those 14 year olds can code! Having two Microsoft Devs as parents is a pretty good strategy if you want to grow up and be valuable to Valve.
I helped out at http://studentrnd.com/ a few times. Hooooly crap. Some of those 14 year olds can code! Having two Microsoft Devs as parents is a pretty good strategy if you want to grow up and be valuable to Valve.
If nothing else, they might be a good audience for Valve's older employees to bounce ideas off of. They could provide information about what teens (a big consumer of Valve's products) want and think are cool.
I wouldn't say so. I'm currently in high school and working at a small indie studio on our flagship game. Working with other professionals on a title that matters is invaluable experience, at least in my opinion.
Invaluable experience yes, but it's really the employer who is providing the value, which is backwards in business sense.
You, my dear friend, just described an internship. I'm one of two programmers on the game we're working on. I feel like I contribute a fair share as an employee to the game.
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Age has nothing to do with anything. Old or young, people can be intelligent, productive and very forward thinking. It is true that many people who have been in the industry a while have found a job and technologies where they're comfortable and don't want to change; but it's just as true that many continue to move forward and try new things.
Reading your post -- in particular the held-high observations of someone who was fired -- one would think that Valve was a relic of a company full of apparently useless seniors who are just waiting out their days until they can retire to go fishing. You know, the same Valve that is one of the most successful software companies operating, and is a company that is pretty much universally understood to have an incredible ability to execute.
It's a weird conflict, really. As others have said, there is a bitter taste of manifestly unwarranted ageism in your post.
It's a weird conflict, really. As others have said, there is a bitter taste of manifestly unwarranted ageism in your post.
The ageism in your post is disconcerting. On one hand you equate youth with innovation, age with stagnation, and on the other you posit that overworking youth for below market wages is simply a cost of doing business.
Youth haven't been conditioned and molded yet by their industries, they're young, stupid and make mistakes and in the process find new ways of doing things. Because they're young they don't have experience nor families to take care of, and thus will take low wages. They don't demand too many benefits, and you can work them like mules. They also flood the market and are over supplied and under demanded. The average game developer is a 31 year old white male. As soon as they start settling down and wanting to have a family they leave the industry. They burn out, and they are replaced.
It's not the "right" way for every company. Valve and other companies do the opposite. But for most of the industry it is a cost of doing business.
I could have chosen to be politically correct or realistic & honest. I chose realistic & honest.
It's not the "right" way for every company. Valve and other companies do the opposite. But for most of the industry it is a cost of doing business.
I could have chosen to be politically correct or realistic & honest. I chose realistic & honest.
> But for most of the industry it is a cost of doing business.
That's the part that is disconcerting. It's a despicable way to conduct your business.
That's the part that is disconcerting. It's a despicable way to conduct your business.
That's a gross over-generalization of youth. Age alone does not tell you anything about intelligence, experience or the likelihood of making mistakes. There may be a general correlation, but it is not causation. You may have a 20-year-old who's been programming and contributing to open-source projects since he was 10 against a 31-year-old who's been programming since he was 27. Who has more experience? Who's more likely to make mistakes? - Age has nothing to do with it.
You could say people new in the industry haven't been conditioned and molded yet. They're young in the industry and thus make stupid mistakes in the process and in the process find new ways of doing things. That would be far more accurate.
You could say people new in the industry haven't been conditioned and molded yet. They're young in the industry and thus make stupid mistakes in the process and in the process find new ways of doing things. That would be far more accurate.
"They burn out"
I think you misspelled "wise up"
I think you misspelled "wise up"
Now that Valve has caught on to this technique, other game companies are going to have to step up their game if they want to stay competitive. Working people like mules? Pssht, that's nothing. I suggest they take some advice from advisors of PhD students. Also, I'm willing to provide consulting services if/when I graduate.
Imagine how far a game company could go if it employed only 18 year-olds at minimum wage.
There are laws limiting the amount a teenager can work.
Yes, it's ageist, and so is Valve if they really have been cleaning house of older employees in favor of fresh college-age kids.
But, is that bad?
As ChrisNorstrom's sibling reply points out, companies really do want young workers in technology. They're more up to date on languages and tools. They'll produce more work and dedicate more time when unencumbered by family concerns. They don't have an expectation of or a lifestyle that requires a six-figure salary. Experience is less of a concern in game and entertainment development than in other industries; it doesn't matter so much if a young hotshot clutters up the codebase a bit or reinvents some wheel algorithm, when this game will be shipped and a new one begun within a year. Even bugs stemming from inexperience are less of a concern for Valve than anyone else, when they own the distribution platform that can automatically push patches and updates anytime.
It's also not illegal if the "older" victims are under age 40. The Age Discrimination in Employment Act only forbids age discrimination against workers 40 or older. http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/age.cfm
Sure, it sucks for the fired workers. Sure, it sounds ruthless and inhumane. And sure, if Valve is blindly firing everybody between age 30 and 40, then they're being dumb, since of course some programmers are still 10x animals at any age. But Valve is not a charity or a government, and is presumably smarter than that. It's a business in mission to make games and money. Every business should be seeking to replace low performers with fresh faces. And in game development, the performance and business value of an employee does bear an inverse correlation with age, so lower performers will skew older.
But, is that bad?
As ChrisNorstrom's sibling reply points out, companies really do want young workers in technology. They're more up to date on languages and tools. They'll produce more work and dedicate more time when unencumbered by family concerns. They don't have an expectation of or a lifestyle that requires a six-figure salary. Experience is less of a concern in game and entertainment development than in other industries; it doesn't matter so much if a young hotshot clutters up the codebase a bit or reinvents some wheel algorithm, when this game will be shipped and a new one begun within a year. Even bugs stemming from inexperience are less of a concern for Valve than anyone else, when they own the distribution platform that can automatically push patches and updates anytime.
It's also not illegal if the "older" victims are under age 40. The Age Discrimination in Employment Act only forbids age discrimination against workers 40 or older. http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/age.cfm
Sure, it sucks for the fired workers. Sure, it sounds ruthless and inhumane. And sure, if Valve is blindly firing everybody between age 30 and 40, then they're being dumb, since of course some programmers are still 10x animals at any age. But Valve is not a charity or a government, and is presumably smarter than that. It's a business in mission to make games and money. Every business should be seeking to replace low performers with fresh faces. And in game development, the performance and business value of an employee does bear an inverse correlation with age, so lower performers will skew older.
Your lawyerly response notwithstanding (it's not illegal if they're under 40!), you don't fire someone because they are old. You fire them because they are underperforming, whether they are old or young.
This philosophy is just another extension of the fetishization of youth. Just because someone is young doesn't mean they'll be better than an older employee (and vice versa, of course).
Judge people on their merits and what they actually achieve, not on what their birthday happens to be.
This philosophy is just another extension of the fetishization of youth. Just because someone is young doesn't mean they'll be better than an older employee (and vice versa, of course).
Judge people on their merits and what they actually achieve, not on what their birthday happens to be.
It seems that age is superfluous to your argument.
Fine job on the video, young Valve employees!
Can I make a suggestion? Make your email capture form immediately visible and give it equal emphasis with the video.
Don't let intrigued people leave without giving you a way to contact them later. People who offer their email address are your biggest fans, and having that information will be valuable to you almost instantly.
Can I make a suggestion? Make your email capture form immediately visible and give it equal emphasis with the video.
Don't let intrigued people leave without giving you a way to contact them later. People who offer their email address are your biggest fans, and having that information will be valuable to you almost instantly.
Every time I read something like this I just think, "My highschool experience sucked."
Depends on your age. When I was at highschool, IBM PCs were just hitting the market. So games developers were still very much a couple of nerds in their garage. This meant that the industry was relatively level pegged (ie I could leave highschool and write a relatively professional game). However these days kids don't have that opportunity (generally speaking of course. There's still your Minecrafts and other indie games that have gone on to be hugely successful for their developer(s)). These days the entry bar is so much higher that I think that's part of the reason so many students are drawn towards web development; where it costs next to nothing to set up a web dev workstation and anyone can throw together a professional looking site. And because of that, the more lower level programming industries are missing out on talented developers.
I appreciate that the Raspberry Pi foundation was set up in an attempt to readdress this issue, but I for one consider myself very luck -perhaps more so than this generation of kids- to have grown up in an era where school kids had the same (dis)advantages as the games studios. And I think it was that which cemented my desire to work in IT at such an early age - as I felt part of the industry even though I was just throwing together silly BBC / Amstrad BASIC, and later DOS games in Pascal, for my own amusement.
I appreciate that the Raspberry Pi foundation was set up in an attempt to readdress this issue, but I for one consider myself very luck -perhaps more so than this generation of kids- to have grown up in an era where school kids had the same (dis)advantages as the games studios. And I think it was that which cemented my desire to work in IT at such an early age - as I felt part of the industry even though I was just throwing together silly BBC / Amstrad BASIC, and later DOS games in Pascal, for my own amusement.
>I think that's part of the reason so many students are drawn towards web development; where it costs next to nothing to set up a web dev workstation and anyone can throw together a professional looking site.
You are absolutely right. I am currently in high school, and I enjoy doing lower-level stuff like game engines, compilers, OSes and hardware.
I am currently thinking of dropping out of school, but it will probably force me to do freelancing and web dev.
It's almost impossible to get a job in any of the areas I am interested without a University degree.
Back in the early days of PCs, I could easily make a hardware startup and earn a decent living, or maybe even get rich. But now it's virtually impossible to do so.
It costs billions of dollars to setup a semiconductor fab and the field is encumbered in patents and politics. Majority of games studios also have budgets with about the same number of digits.
You are absolutely right. I am currently in high school, and I enjoy doing lower-level stuff like game engines, compilers, OSes and hardware.
I am currently thinking of dropping out of school, but it will probably force me to do freelancing and web dev.
It's almost impossible to get a job in any of the areas I am interested without a University degree.
Back in the early days of PCs, I could easily make a hardware startup and earn a decent living, or maybe even get rich. But now it's virtually impossible to do so.
It costs billions of dollars to setup a semiconductor fab and the field is encumbered in patents and politics. Majority of games studios also have budgets with about the same number of digits.
Drop out of high school? Don't be stupid. You don't know nearly as much as you think you do.
Hi! I just graduated high school, but spent most of my time hanging out in research labs at a university. If you happen to live close to a public university/college, I would recommend seeing if you can take classes (some states in the U.S. allow for students to take university level classes for free, don't know what the policies are for where you live!) or working with some of the labs. High school is horribly dull, but if you find a way to make it work for you, it can lead to larger opportunities and allow for you to build up a CV/resume while enjoying teenager-y things like school clubs/sports.
Dropping out of high school, especially if you are interested in and want to work in computing, will be the worst mistake you ever make.
Whatever is making school unbearable for you, fix that problem instead (or ask for help to fix it) of trying to get away from it.
Whatever is making school unbearable for you, fix that problem instead (or ask for help to fix it) of trying to get away from it.
"Droping out of highschool" usually means getting your GED. Once you have your GED you'll be perfectly fine. If you don't get it though, you will be severely crippling yourself in society. If you have two years left of HS and you're struggling, then maybe a GED is the right option. If you're doing well, or you only have a year, just stick with it.
In general, I think dropping out of high school is a bad idea. I did so, however, now I am about to graduate with a 3.5 GPA in software engineering at Auburn University. I do feel that some high schools aren't worth going to. If that is the case you would have ended up learning more at a community college and then later a University. I'm sure I did at least.
It's totally possible to get a job in those areas without a degree.
Let me tell you a bit about myself.
I dropped out of high school at age 16 because it made me fucking miserable, and self-studied for two years to get myself into college. I had a GED, a 3 in AP Calc AB, and a 5 in AP Computer Science by the end.
They admitted me to the honors college at UMass Amherst. I did my undergrad there BSc Computer Science (with honors), specialized in the Programming Languages and Compilers Track.
Today I'm at Technion, Israel Institute of Technology, doing a research-track MSc.
You want to do stuff like compilers, OSes and hardware? Screw high school, get yourself to university as fast as possible, and once you're there double down on all of it. For specialized areas like these, even at a good undergrad institution you're going to have to take grad-level courses to get to the Real Deal.
You can do this! So hurry up and get to work!
EDITED to elide bragging. Stupid me.
I dropped out of high school at age 16 because it made me fucking miserable, and self-studied for two years to get myself into college. I had a GED, a 3 in AP Calc AB, and a 5 in AP Computer Science by the end.
They admitted me to the honors college at UMass Amherst. I did my undergrad there BSc Computer Science (with honors), specialized in the Programming Languages and Compilers Track.
Today I'm at Technion, Israel Institute of Technology, doing a research-track MSc.
You want to do stuff like compilers, OSes and hardware? Screw high school, get yourself to university as fast as possible, and once you're there double down on all of it. For specialized areas like these, even at a good undergrad institution you're going to have to take grad-level courses to get to the Real Deal.
You can do this! So hurry up and get to work!
EDITED to elide bragging. Stupid me.
Back in my day if you were at highschool and wanted attention from Valve you created a mod played by thousands of people!
Joking, of course, this is cool. I wonder how they'll recruit, whether it'll be from pre-existing modding community (does that still exist, given how relatively creaky their games are now?) or completely fresh. I imagine that these days, due to mobile apps and independent engines like Unity, there are more good young devs outside gaming/modding than before.
Joking, of course, this is cool. I wonder how they'll recruit, whether it'll be from pre-existing modding community (does that still exist, given how relatively creaky their games are now?) or completely fresh. I imagine that these days, due to mobile apps and independent engines like Unity, there are more good young devs outside gaming/modding than before.
Yep my Highschool had 1 class on programming an the teacher told us strait up not to become a programmer. I just wanted to GTFO of there.
Well, cool things are pretty much inherently outliers ^^;
Without watching the video, I have absolutely no clue what this is. I should not be required to watch a video to understand the site.
Also, for some reason, the header image doesn't show up in Safari.
Also, for some reason, the header image doesn't show up in Safari.
Header image is hotlinked from wallpapersus.com.
"This website was created entirely by teenagers..." -- Gabe (in the first 15 seconds)
Not the texture. The logo (http://pipeline.valvesoftware.com/images/logo_final_gray.png). The <div class="clearfix"> it's wrapped in ends up being 1x0 in Safari.
Works fine here. I'm using Safari 6.1, though.
Even after watching it, I don't get what it is.
Like, yeah it's supposed to help high school students familiarize themselves with commercial game development, but how? Do they visit your high school and hold a presentation? If it's just information on a website, why do you need to register? If it wasn't by Valve it'd sound like a scam.
Like, yeah it's supposed to help high school students familiarize themselves with commercial game development, but how? Do they visit your high school and hold a presentation? If it's just information on a website, why do you need to register? If it wasn't by Valve it'd sound like a scam.
The video stated there will be a forum set up for discussions with the students where you can get answers to questions and insight into the industry. Also said the site will be ever growing and content will be determined by questions people ask.
Don't really understand how it sounded like a scam, you just have to submit your email address to get updates.
Don't really understand how it sounded like a scam, you just have to submit your email address to get updates.
Looks like someone (Gaben) finally got around to reading Ender's Game.
Cool idea, but the page needs serious redesigning. Also, for the love of god put 'cursor: pointer;' on the FAQ links (or just make them links)
But yea, definitely awesome to see Valve wants to engage a younger workforce, though we'll see if they actually commit.
But yea, definitely awesome to see Valve wants to engage a younger workforce, though we'll see if they actually commit.
This is pretty awesome... I hope to see more tech companies try to connect with younger audiences and help foster growing interests in the engineering fields. Pair this with the quickly changing education landscape and we could see some big changes -- and hopefully big innovation -- in the near future as kids move away from the traditional college education structure and focus on developing skills around their interests earlier in life.
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Seriously, the website is crappy. No doctype, images for quotes, the hidden text in the FAQ is completely unnecessary and the site looks like crap on mobile devices. I'm 16 and I could do better than that. In fact, I claim that my websites already looked better when I was 14.
That said, the video looks quite nice.
That said, the video looks quite nice.
I didn't have any problems with it whatsoever. I think you're being too picky.
"I think you're being too picky." Oh well, screenshots following...
https://www.dropbox.com/s/cfftfq8ubq4rn5q/Foto%2013.07.13%20...
https://www.dropbox.com/s/axsg6e27byqy1y6/Foto%2013.07.13%20...
You took those with your phone, right? Do you always browse with your phone, or did you specifically pull it out just to test the site? (It's OK if you did, just curious.)
If you can explain it, I'd like to know why anybody ever browses on the phone unless you're literally travelling or on the toilet. I just don't get it. A tiny screen and no keyboard seems like a crappy way to experience the Internet when you could use a big screen, but everybody is saying it's the next thing. (Perhaps it is purely economic and I'm being a bit of a Marie Antoinette here?)
If you can explain it, I'd like to know why anybody ever browses on the phone unless you're literally travelling or on the toilet. I just don't get it. A tiny screen and no keyboard seems like a crappy way to experience the Internet when you could use a big screen, but everybody is saying it's the next thing. (Perhaps it is purely economic and I'm being a bit of a Marie Antoinette here?)
I browse websites often from my phone even when I've got a laptop 6 feet away from me. Usually when I'm on the sofa flicking through twitter or email etc...
It really doesn't take much to at least make sure your website is accessible. If it doesn't work properly it's likely I'll give up and not even bother trying anywhere else.
It really doesn't take much to at least make sure your website is accessible. If it doesn't work properly it's likely I'll give up and not even bother trying anywhere else.
That's an iPad.
I agree that if the site looks like that on a tablet, they need to fix it. It's not about being "too picky". There's no excuse for stuff like that.
I agree that if the site looks like that on a tablet, they need to fix it. It's not about being "too picky". There's no excuse for stuff like that.
I agree with what you said.
The main thrust of the critique as I saw it was that the OP could have done it when he was 14, which is what led to the "too picky" comment.
The main thrust of the critique as I saw it was that the OP could have done it when he was 14, which is what led to the "too picky" comment.
Your response to critique of a website's design is to question what use an entire industry is outside of entertainment when pooping. Its estimated that ~50m tablets were shipped worldwide in Q1 2013.
If you really want to understand why the PC industry is drowning and mobile is on the rise, go out into the world an interact with the people using these devices. The answer will be obvious at that point.
If you really want to understand why the PC industry is drowning and mobile is on the rise, go out into the world an interact with the people using these devices. The answer will be obvious at that point.
I mistakenly thought we were strictly talking about phones, not tablets. It's somewhat less perplexing to me with tablets.
> go out into the world an interact with the people using these devices. The answer will be obvious at that point.
I've done that, but I still don't get it. That said, I only really have close interaction with 2 people who use tablets (AFAIK). I see that with a tablet the screen is big enough to not be a pain. Isn't the on-screen keyboard a pain, though? Does it work just well enough to type URLs and fill out web forms? Or does it work well enough that people don't really care about not having a real keyboard?
> go out into the world an interact with the people using these devices. The answer will be obvious at that point.
I've done that, but I still don't get it. That said, I only really have close interaction with 2 people who use tablets (AFAIK). I see that with a tablet the screen is big enough to not be a pain. Isn't the on-screen keyboard a pain, though? Does it work just well enough to type URLs and fill out web forms? Or does it work well enough that people don't really care about not having a real keyboard?
I took these screnshots on an iPad. And yes, that was the first device I visited the site on, because in the morning during breakfast, I use it to read some news or look for interesting stuff on HN.
Anyhow, I would've contacted them directly and help them sort it out but I can't seem to find any contact details.
Excellent! Even though the program seems to be aimed at high schoolers, I hope it eventually expands to those (like myself) with experience in other industries who are either considering or trying to break into the video game industry.
Anyone noticed that related videos are very interesting? (About real pipelines).
I wonder how many students will be funneled through DigiPen's summer workshop programs. (https://projectfun.digipen.edu/summer-workshops/workshops-gr...) Students who have done some of those workshops would have a huge competitive advantage over those who haven't. (I'm told by a friend who teaches some of the Engineering workshops they get a good selection of bright kids too.)
Very cool, but they really should have had more women in the video.
It's hard to find high school girls who are really stoked about Valve. I suspect the video reflected that ratio.
As a high schooler myself who's working at a company (DIY) that's promoting the same ideas, this is extremely awesome. I totally think more companies should be doing this, so major kudos to them.
the reasons for this and the tradeoffs are covered in the Valve employee handbook
The Valve Employee Handbook was made public some time ago:
http://media.steampowered.com/apps/valve/Valve_NewEmployeeHa...
http://media.steampowered.com/apps/valve/Valve_NewEmployeeHa...
[deleted]
Free labor.
I would so choose this over Auto Shop.
How about shipping Half-Life 2 Episode 3? :)
1) Good for Valve. I think this is the beginning of an already awesome company evolving even further.
2) Jeri Ellsworth (fired valve employee) was right. Some of the older Valve employees really have been holding the company back in terms of culture and new hires. This seems to be Valve's response by fixing itself and focusing on recruiting new younger staff. The problem with being an awesome place to work is that employees don't leave even when they should. They might in turn refuse to let younger employees in out of fear that they'll be replaced. So slowly it destroys the natural cycle of replacement of old ideas with fresh new ones. It might not be set up as a recruitment platform but it sure can be used like one to Valve's advantage. They can support kids who want to get into the industry and at the same time snap up the best of the best before other companies do.
3) Also, Valve hires only the most experienced who can self manage themselves. This has allowed them to do a lot with only 300 or so people but expanding seems to be slow. Other companies hire juniors, work them hard, pay them below market wages, and can expand faster and create more IP. If Valve wants to launch more IP or expand they're going to have to change their ways. And it seems they've come to terms with that.