In the Bible Belt, Offering Atheists a Spiritual Home(nytimes.com)
nytimes.com
In the Bible Belt, Offering Atheists a Spiritual Home
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/24/us/in-the-bible-belt-offering-atheists-a-spiritual-home.html?_r=1&
4 comments
I really don't like it but I can't shake off my smug European sense of being weirded out when I read about how atheists are seemingly treated in America.
Is it really as bad as it's made out in this article or on Reddit? Do your neighbours really get into your hair because you don't have a faith?
Is it really as bad as it's made out in this article or on Reddit? Do your neighbours really get into your hair because you don't have a faith?
> I really don't like it but I can't shake off my smug European sense of being weirded out when I read about how atheists are seemingly treated in America.
That's OK, 'cause we Americans can be smug right back at you over the way Gypsies are treated in Europe.
Just as we treat atheists the way Europe did a century ago, Europe treats the Gypsies the way America treated black people a century ago. Actually, Europe doesn't seem all that friendly to blacks yet, either, at least judging by what soccer fans have been chanting at opposing team black players.
So...don't get too smug over there. :-)
That's OK, 'cause we Americans can be smug right back at you over the way Gypsies are treated in Europe.
Just as we treat atheists the way Europe did a century ago, Europe treats the Gypsies the way America treated black people a century ago. Actually, Europe doesn't seem all that friendly to blacks yet, either, at least judging by what soccer fans have been chanting at opposing team black players.
So...don't get too smug over there. :-)
From my experience as an agnostic I've been heckled more by my own family than anyone else. My world view is basically opposite of theirs and I've learned to just not open my mouth when they begin talking about it (politics, religion etc). It makes for very uncomfortable family gatherings for me :/
I've never really experienced any type of heckling, however, where I live (Missouri) most people just assume you are a Christian of some form. I do feel like if my employer knew I was an atheist I'd see some discrimination at work. Not to mention that, for the most part, you won't get elected to public office if you are a atheist. In fact in Texas an atheist can't run for public office.
> In fact in Texas an atheist can't run for public office.
Can you cite a source for that? Because it sounds like one HUGE violation of the 1st amendement.
Can you cite a source for that? Because it sounds like one HUGE violation of the 1st amendement.
Texas Constitution. Article 1, Section 4:
"Sec. 4. RELIGIOUS TESTS. No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office, or public trust, in this State; nor shall any one be excluded from holding office on account of his religious sentiments, provided he acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being." [1]
This doesn't actually say that an atheist can't hold office, but a non-believer can be excluded from office.
There are some particularly egregious examples of public-office tests listed in [2]; in particular Tennessee.
[1] http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/CN/htm/CN.1.htm
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_against_atheists...
"Sec. 4. RELIGIOUS TESTS. No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office, or public trust, in this State; nor shall any one be excluded from holding office on account of his religious sentiments, provided he acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being." [1]
This doesn't actually say that an atheist can't hold office, but a non-believer can be excluded from office.
There are some particularly egregious examples of public-office tests listed in [2]; in particular Tennessee.
[1] http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/CN/htm/CN.1.htm
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_against_atheists...
Visit Poland (or other ex-Warsaw pact countries, excluding Czech Republic). You're going to change your mind, fast.
Well, I am from Slovakia. I was never met with open criticism or any kind of aggression towards me for not being christian. I think majority of Europeans are only Sunday Christians.
The level of engagement I have seen in US is far beyond this.
The level of engagement I have seen in US is far beyond this.
Parts of the UK (e.g. Northern Scotland, Western Isles) could be pretty strict about some things - particularly observing the Sabbath. Even though my parents were "heathens" we didn't hang up washing outside on a Sunday or go out on bicycles - for fear of upsetting the neighbours.
If you've seen Lars von Trier's excellent Breaking the Waves you will get the idea.
[NB I don't think things are nearly as strict as they used to be.]
If you've seen Lars von Trier's excellent Breaking the Waves you will get the idea.
[NB I don't think things are nearly as strict as they used to be.]
30 years ago maybe. These days, America is much more atheist-friendly than religious-friendly.
> Is it really as bad as it's made out in this article or on Reddit?
It probably depends on where you live. Here in PA, it's been a non-issue for me.
But then, be careful. America is much larger than Europe, and while we are all part of the same country, we aren't the same people. There are big difference among the different parts of the country, and making them out to be all the same would be like me using a single country and extrapolating that out to all countries in Europe.
Even still, I have religious friends, and non-religious friends. It's never come up, and never been an issue.
It probably depends on where you live. Here in PA, it's been a non-issue for me.
But then, be careful. America is much larger than Europe, and while we are all part of the same country, we aren't the same people. There are big difference among the different parts of the country, and making them out to be all the same would be like me using a single country and extrapolating that out to all countries in Europe.
Even still, I have religious friends, and non-religious friends. It's never come up, and never been an issue.
"But then, be careful. America is much larger than Europe"
Europe (the continent) actually has a larger area (10,180,000 km² > 9,826,675 km²) and a much larger population (739.2 million > 313.9 million ) than the United States (the country).
I presume you mean the EU (which still has a much larger population) or maybe Western Europe? Or maybe North America (the continent)?
Europe (the continent) actually has a larger area (10,180,000 km² > 9,826,675 km²) and a much larger population (739.2 million > 313.9 million ) than the United States (the country).
I presume you mean the EU (which still has a much larger population) or maybe Western Europe? Or maybe North America (the continent)?
I read "larger" as meaning "more diverse". Not sure I agree though.
I think you'd have to be slightly delusional to feel that the USA is more diverse than the whole of the EU.
I think that's a bit harsh. In the case of the USA my impression is that the main source of cultural diversity is from immigrant communities whereas in Europe the main diversity is between long established communities - often at a level well below that of the current nation state (particularly noticeable in places like the UK and the other larger European states).
Personally, I think that Europe does have a lot more cultural diversity than the United States - but I can see that the point is arguable and that it's hardly a case of being "delusional" to argue the opposing point.
Personally, I think that Europe does have a lot more cultural diversity than the United States - but I can see that the point is arguable and that it's hardly a case of being "delusional" to argue the opposing point.
True, but then I'd go so far as to add that the USA is more diverse than any one country making up the EU.
And if that's the case, treating the USA as a comparable EU country in terms of diversity ignores that diversity found here. Which is what was being discussed in the first place.
And if that's the case, treating the USA as a comparable EU country in terms of diversity ignores that diversity found here. Which is what was being discussed in the first place.
I really did mean in area. The US dwarfs the EU nations. Apologies for using Europe instead of EU. I'd hoped the obvious context from the previous poster would help.
Still, I'd argue that the US is far more diverse than any single country of the EU, so treating the people of the US as all being the same is as silly as treating the people of the EU as all being the same.
Still, I'd argue that the US is far more diverse than any single country of the EU, so treating the people of the US as all being the same is as silly as treating the people of the EU as all being the same.
I was using it in the same context as the previous poster. So yes, EU.
Context, people, context.
Context, people, context.
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America is much larger than Europe
Only in land area, and much of that extra land area is very sparsely populated. Europe has over twice as many people.
Only in land area, and much of that extra land area is very sparsely populated. Europe has over twice as many people.
Yeah, so what? How does that relate to the context of the discussion? Are you really suggesting that any single EU country is more diverse than the USA?
If you're going to troll, please do it somewhere other than HN.
This article doesn't actually make it to be all that hard.
I mean, let's be reasonable. You are part of a community that strongly identifies with a set of beliefs and activities. You become disillusioned with said set of beliefs and activities. How are you going to stay part of that community? Doesn't matter if its NASCAR, hacking around in python, DIY bioengineering, whatever.
What happens is that there are situations where entire physical communities (in the sense of the set of people you will likely run into) also form a single actual community (in the sense of some sort of in-group), which is really unfortunate. I mean, no matter how welcoming and polite that ingroup is, your going to feel left out and somewhat alienated.
I mean, let's be reasonable. You are part of a community that strongly identifies with a set of beliefs and activities. You become disillusioned with said set of beliefs and activities. How are you going to stay part of that community? Doesn't matter if its NASCAR, hacking around in python, DIY bioengineering, whatever.
What happens is that there are situations where entire physical communities (in the sense of the set of people you will likely run into) also form a single actual community (in the sense of some sort of in-group), which is really unfortunate. I mean, no matter how welcoming and polite that ingroup is, your going to feel left out and somewhat alienated.
It really goes beyond this, because taking on some labels gets you labeled as a walking blasphemy, an immoral person who subscribes to a philosophy of mass murder. Atheism is understood as opposition to God (Satanism) in much of rural America. One area where Western Europeans really can be smug with justification.
Exactly. It's hard enough to be a male and not a sports fan in America.
"Ok, so you're an atheist. Wait, you're not a {local team here} fan!!!"
"Ok, so you're an atheist. Wait, you're not a {local team here} fan!!!"
I presume you don't have a strong connection between particular football teams and religion and therefore particular community allegiances?
Rangers/Celtic, Hearts/Hibs etc.
Rangers/Celtic, Hearts/Hibs etc.
Well, I don't mean both at the same time. What I'm saying is, it's more difficult socially and in terms of community if you are not a sports fan (at all, of any type) than it is to be an atheist. Most people are smart enough to avoid religion and politics so that leaves sports for the small talk.
No they don't. At least not anywhere that I've lived for an extended period of time (NJ, NY, NC, PA).
I grew up in Arkansas as an atheist (I guess that's "Bible Belt" though I find the term insulting), and really I don't have any problems that would cause me to seek out other atheists. I had minor problems as a teenager but that's probably because I had the view that christians cause all the world's problems, such as my inability to attract enough females. Realizing that was far from the truth was a big part of growing up I think.
The usefulness of the sense of community found in religious groups can be very powerful. People willing to help one another with things like taking care of children and elderly, having a group you can simply ask for help whenever there's a need, being aware of the lives of others around you, a place where your kids can meet other kids. It's a network you can depend on. A place to volunteer and be appreciated. I'm an atheist but I actually still participate at a church at non-religious church events for all of these reasons, although I think everyone knows my family is atheist. They also happen to have a very good Japanese language preschool, which is why we started going there. It's a wonderful place filled with wonderful people. In my opinion it's great not because of any spiritual reasons, but because of the community and the willingness of people to help each other.
This doesn't look like Hacker News to me...
“Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound source of spirituality. When we recognize our place in an immensity of light‐years and in the passage of ages, when we grasp the intricacy, beauty, and subtlety of life, then that soaring feeling, that sense of elation and humility combined, is surely spiritual. So are our emotions in the presence of great art or music or literature, or acts of exemplary selfless courage such as those of Mohandas Gandhi or Martin Luther King, Jr. The notion that science and spirituality are somehow mutually exclusive does a disservice to both.”