What is Happening in Brazil(medium.com)
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What is Happening in Brazil
https://medium.com/i-m-h-o/d2e5f1f632ef
13 comments
But the any constitution may have(read, HAS) things that are wrong. Constitutions were written by people too. People are fallible, and the possibility exists that going against what they wrote ten-score years ago is just plain wrong, and going against it is the correct thing to do. I don't think leaders should fear correcting the wrongs in the building blocks of their countries; it should be their utmost responsibility.
Now, this is not what is happening here. Not at all. But taking the constitution as sacrosanct and making going against it punishable by death is not a good idea. Is dogmatic and wrong. The responsibility of politicians is towards the people, not towards the constitution.
Now, this is not what is happening here. Not at all. But taking the constitution as sacrosanct and making going against it punishable by death is not a good idea. Is dogmatic and wrong. The responsibility of politicians is towards the people, not towards the constitution.
There's a pretty measurable difference between trying to fix the constitution and "abusing" it, which generally entails flagrantly ignoring it.
Personally, I don't think the death penalty should be used for anything less than willfully causing the death of of an innocent victim.
Personally, I don't think the death penalty should be used for anything less than willfully causing the death of of an innocent victim.
Before denying something as wrong, you should point out the concrete problems.
I agree that laws are made by men. But the US constitution was written for the living people. Corrupt leaders are corrupted because they in fact don't serve the living. Over time, the man-made laws have changed as well.
However, just like in math, it's possible to prove whether something is right or wrong by verifying on a fixed principle. All the answers are determined by the questions. So we can only tell if laws are right or wrong by evaluating them case-by-case.
If the equation in math changes, we will get many answers from a single question. That's why to evaluate truth and justice we need one principle, not many.
I agree that laws are made by men. But the US constitution was written for the living people. Corrupt leaders are corrupted because they in fact don't serve the living. Over time, the man-made laws have changed as well.
However, just like in math, it's possible to prove whether something is right or wrong by verifying on a fixed principle. All the answers are determined by the questions. So we can only tell if laws are right or wrong by evaluating them case-by-case.
If the equation in math changes, we will get many answers from a single question. That's why to evaluate truth and justice we need one principle, not many.
The responsibility of politicians is towards the people, not towards the constitution.
Do you mean to the current people? and/or the future generations? and/or the past ones?
Do you mean to the current people? and/or the future generations? and/or the past ones?
The current people, and the future generations inasmuch as their well-being is relevant and important to the current ones.
For example, what do you think about the current constitutional issues in Argentina? do you agree with the supreme court ruling?
Are we talking about the judicial system reform? I believe the current system of choosing the magistrate is quite bad, but the alternative that's being suggested is rife with it's own problems. As such, I don't think it's worth changing the constitution. I really like the current composition of the Supreme Court, and I trust their decision. I do think there are ways to change the system for the best, and I hope there'll be a joint effort to come up with a better alternative to the current system.
As a fellow brazilian, I totally agree with you. I believe we should not allow party flags to be raised right now. The truth is that politicians from all parties (supportive or not to the present government) were involved in some sort of corruption across Brazil.
As violent and absurd this may sound, I believe those who live in Brasília should go to undoubtedly corrupt politician's homes (like Renan Calheiros') and destroy it, the same way people have been doing with banks, telecom, and media companies (entities that literally have raped and manipulated us for decades) in several capitals.
Although I believe this may not prevent corrupt politicians from being in power in the future (only a properly educated population can ensure that), we need to act now. Our political system is broken and there is no way change will come from those in power - their own interest is holding control.
As violent and absurd this may sound, I believe those who live in Brasília should go to undoubtedly corrupt politician's homes (like Renan Calheiros') and destroy it, the same way people have been doing with banks, telecom, and media companies (entities that literally have raped and manipulated us for decades) in several capitals.
Although I believe this may not prevent corrupt politicians from being in power in the future (only a properly educated population can ensure that), we need to act now. Our political system is broken and there is no way change will come from those in power - their own interest is holding control.
I agree with gverri. Sorry, but your comment is very naive, nd not informed. These people with political flags were the people attacked by the police earlier, the people who started everything and now they are being attacked by the new protesters with poor political understanding.
Your notion of "party" is even inaccurate. A party don't need to participate in elections (there are lots of not electoral parties). And between parties who act in elections, there are those who do it not to be elected (in fact, they are almost never elected), but to spread their message in the TV during elections. Just trying to use the system against the system. Even there are parties (PT, PSOL), that are in fact a huge aggregation of different groups (like sub-parties), and those groups can be very diverse, some of them not wishing to concentrate in government, but acting with social movements.
The current acts against political parties in Brazil is a huge ignorance spread by right wing groups. Is indeed a very fascist thing.
Your notion of "party" is even inaccurate. A party don't need to participate in elections (there are lots of not electoral parties). And between parties who act in elections, there are those who do it not to be elected (in fact, they are almost never elected), but to spread their message in the TV during elections. Just trying to use the system against the system. Even there are parties (PT, PSOL), that are in fact a huge aggregation of different groups (like sub-parties), and those groups can be very diverse, some of them not wishing to concentrate in government, but acting with social movements.
The current acts against political parties in Brazil is a huge ignorance spread by right wing groups. Is indeed a very fascist thing.
You are so wrong. This only show how you must improve your knowledge of Brazilian politics.
Not all parties were involved in some sort of corruption. And those who didn't are the ones having their flags burnt by protesters.
Lot's of activists from PSTU died protesting against big farmers violence against the indigenous. Activists from PSOL, PSTU, and other left wing parties have a LONG history of protesting. Just search google: Pinheirinhos, Belo Monte, União Homoafetiva, Marcha das Vadias, Marcha da Maconha. They were always there, fighting for what they believed was right.
Not all parties were involved in some sort of corruption. And those who didn't are the ones having their flags burnt by protesters.
Lot's of activists from PSTU died protesting against big farmers violence against the indigenous. Activists from PSOL, PSTU, and other left wing parties have a LONG history of protesting. Just search google: Pinheirinhos, Belo Monte, União Homoafetiva, Marcha das Vadias, Marcha da Maconha. They were always there, fighting for what they believed was right.
> future generations of politicians will know now to upset the population to the point where they'll revolt and ask for their execution.
I agree with your post, except for this. If history has shown us anything, it's that they never learn.
I agree with your post, except for this. If history has shown us anything, it's that they never learn.
Then let them eat fate :P
A somewhat different analysis of the current situation, reaching quite different conclusions:
http://frombrazil.blogfolha.uol.com.br/2013/06/21/sao-paulo-...
I hadn't seen until I read that that the original organizers of the protest, the MPL, have actually pulled out and denounced some of the current protestors due to them being coopted by right-wing groups.
The blog post linked here makes a curious comment about "corruption... especially after the fall of the military regime". I'm not 100% sure if this is intended as a dog-whistle comment to the right, but it's a common sort of discourse among the right-wing, to excuse the dictatorship or even call for a new one by using corruption as the opening, since allegedly the dictatorship, for all its faults, was clean and got the trains running on time etc.
http://frombrazil.blogfolha.uol.com.br/2013/06/21/sao-paulo-...
I hadn't seen until I read that that the original organizers of the protest, the MPL, have actually pulled out and denounced some of the current protestors due to them being coopted by right-wing groups.
The blog post linked here makes a curious comment about "corruption... especially after the fall of the military regime". I'm not 100% sure if this is intended as a dog-whistle comment to the right, but it's a common sort of discourse among the right-wing, to excuse the dictatorship or even call for a new one by using corruption as the opening, since allegedly the dictatorship, for all its faults, was clean and got the trains running on time etc.
I'm not sure the blog post you linked to reached any conclusions. It merely observed that not all of the hundreds of thousands of protestors are all of the same mind and political ideology. It would be pretty shocking if that were not the case. It ended wondering what would happen next, not declaring what would. Mass movements are unpredictable. So is life.
You chose one line out of context from the original article to highlight a "dog whistle to the right" in support of a dictatorship while the rest of the article is an impassioned plea for human rights.
Any time there's a mass movement, many different people will try to co-opt it. It doesn't mean that you should avoid supporting the movement. It means that it is very important to vocally support the parts of it that you do agree with, so that the parts you don't remain on the fringes.
Acting like the whole movement is suspect because of a few strikes me as very counter-productive.
You chose one line out of context from the original article to highlight a "dog whistle to the right" in support of a dictatorship while the rest of the article is an impassioned plea for human rights.
Any time there's a mass movement, many different people will try to co-opt it. It doesn't mean that you should avoid supporting the movement. It means that it is very important to vocally support the parts of it that you do agree with, so that the parts you don't remain on the fringes.
Acting like the whole movement is suspect because of a few strikes me as very counter-productive.
I'm not intending to say that the whole movement is suspect; more that I'm wary of the particular linked blog post's analysis of the movement and what its aims are / should be.
Your link isn't working for some reason.
Keep in mind that it's common for governments and other political organizations to insert agitators for the purposes of attempting to discredit or change the message of a protest. Happens very frequently.
Also there is a large contingent of people that just like rioting. IE: "Now could be your only chance to torch a police car"
Keep in mind that it's common for governments and other political organizations to insert agitators for the purposes of attempting to discredit or change the message of a protest. Happens very frequently.
Also there is a large contingent of people that just like rioting. IE: "Now could be your only chance to torch a police car"
The link works for me. For those who can't access:
http://web.archive.org/liveweb/frombrazil.blogfolha.uol.com....
http://web.archive.org/liveweb/frombrazil.blogfolha.uol.com....
Quote from prosecutor's FB according to this blog post: “I’m trying to get home for the past two hours, but I can’t because there’s some protesters blocking off traffic […] please, somebody tell the police that this area is under the jurisdiction of my court and, if any of them kill a protester, I’ll just archive the case”.
Scary!
Yep.
I understand this as a humorous remark, no doubt, but there are certain positions of power from which I do not appreciate joking.
I understand this as a humorous remark, no doubt, but there are certain positions of power from which I do not appreciate joking.
It's a little more than just an humorous remark (EDIT: not that I'm assuming he would actually archive the cases); the original text seems much more hateful. The last part of the post is roughly:
Shitty petistas¹. Motherfuckers. (...) I miss the time when this kind of thing was resolved with rubber (sticks) on the backs of the cowards...
¹ Supporters of the Partido Trabalhista, as far as I can tell.
Shitty petistas¹. Motherfuckers. (...) I miss the time when this kind of thing was resolved with rubber (sticks) on the backs of the cowards...
¹ Supporters of the Partido Trabalhista, as far as I can tell.
>"there are certain positions of power from which I do not appreciate joking."
Exactly how I feel.
And no way it was a joke, since he used bad words in the original post I haven't translated, which indicates he was really pissed off and writing fluently.
Exactly how I feel.
And no way it was a joke, since he used bad words in the original post I haven't translated, which indicates he was really pissed off and writing fluently.
How is it possible for that to be taken as a humorous remark?
This has been a very depressing week. Regardless of the many fair causes being taken by the protesters to the street, as a Brazilian living in São Paulo, I was worried since the beginning that the whole thing would turn into the mess we can see now. And while I sympathize what many of these causes, the lack of a proper, unified list of demands makes the whole thing completely worthless in the best case, and quite dangerous in the worst.
On the bright side, it was funny the watch the national and foreign media trying to understand what was going on. And then my own friends and coworkers who supported the whole thing trying to explain what they thought it was about (each one with a different explanation).
On the bright side, it was funny the watch the national and foreign media trying to understand what was going on. And then my own friends and coworkers who supported the whole thing trying to explain what they thought it was about (each one with a different explanation).
> And while I sympathize what many of these causes, the lack of a proper, unified list of demands makes the whole thing completely worthless in the best case, and quite dangerous in the worst.
"Represent us, not yourselves" is the message delivered by these sorts of protests. It's more effective than an itemized list.
> And then my own friends and coworkers who supported the whole thing trying to explain what they thought it was about (each one with a different explanation).
This makes perfect sense amongst people who aren't being represented at all well by their government - the government isn't just doing one thing badly, so of course there isn't agreement over what they're doing wrong. It says something kind of ugly about you that you think it's "funny."
"Represent us, not yourselves" is the message delivered by these sorts of protests. It's more effective than an itemized list.
> And then my own friends and coworkers who supported the whole thing trying to explain what they thought it was about (each one with a different explanation).
This makes perfect sense amongst people who aren't being represented at all well by their government - the government isn't just doing one thing badly, so of course there isn't agreement over what they're doing wrong. It says something kind of ugly about you that you think it's "funny."
It is mind blowing to me that in a world where the internet makes it so easy to aggregate democratically the wishes of the masses, corrupt politicians that neglect the people they represent still thrive. If everybody would spent 10% of the time they spend on Facebook in order to express on a website the problems that they would like to be solved by the state and the solution to these problems that they support, the world we live in would be a much better one. I would guess that the value corruption takes away from the global economy is much higher than the value created by all of the startups that pretend to disrupt economies. Do you want to solve a global problem? Please solve corruption.
I was reading the European Convention on Human Rights recently and I was surprised to see that Article 2 explicitly allows for states to kill people to quell rioting or insurrection:
Article 2 – Right to life
:
2. Deprivation of life shall not be regarded as inflicted in contravention of this
article when it results from the use of force which is no more than
absolutely necessary:
:
c. in action lawfully taken for the purpose of quelling a riot or insurrection.
You have to read "riot" in context of "insurrection." Armed uprisings are put down with lethal force. That's not inconsistent with western thought. E.g. its one of the first things the fledgling U.S. federal government did in response to a rebellion in Massachusetts: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shays'_Rebellion#Rebellion.
Vis-a-vis riots, read in the context of "insurrection" you might interpret it as referring to the kind of riots you see in say Bangladesh: labor strikes where people bomb things.
Vis-a-vis riots, read in the context of "insurrection" you might interpret it as referring to the kind of riots you see in say Bangladesh: labor strikes where people bomb things.
Are there instances where this has been applied with commentary? That would be interesting to read; just based on the raw text, it seems to me this is closer to "if you have an allergic reaction to the legal application of tear gas while rioting and die, it's not our fault" and less like "if you're protesting and we don't like it, we can and will shoot you, and it's legal."
Interesting. Maybe that explains why dictatorships actually signed it too.Is that only in the European version ?
This article left me thinking about how big of a mess the 2014 world cup could be - a whirlwind of political protest, drunken fans and violence. Brazilian leadership really has their work cut out of them. However, in China, where oppression and corruption also exist, the 2008 Olympics was an event of unifying nationalism.
Then, as the article portrays, Arab countries can oust their leaders, but Brazilians choose to re-elect corrupt politicians.
Why does it seem like communist countries can inspire nationalism and pride, and the people of dictatorships can change leadership. Yet, Brazil, as a democratic country, is depicted as imagining disgrace (in world cup / Olympics) and unable to instigate political change?
Then, as the article portrays, Arab countries can oust their leaders, but Brazilians choose to re-elect corrupt politicians.
Why does it seem like communist countries can inspire nationalism and pride, and the people of dictatorships can change leadership. Yet, Brazil, as a democratic country, is depicted as imagining disgrace (in world cup / Olympics) and unable to instigate political change?
Simply electing leaders isn't enough in systems with winner-take-all dynamics. Brazil, Turkey, and Egypt all encapsulate this basic truth.
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/06/21/the_tyranny...
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/06/21/the_tyranny...
The most intelligent question ever raised that I saw. It left me thinking too, thank you.
The Left started the protests to attack the gov. of Sao Paulo one of largest city in Brazil that is in the hands of 'right' wing.
After the middle class joined the protest things changed because the middle class only see political 'right' or 'left' as:
which hand is stealing? If it is 'center' is both...
As the protest backfired agains the left and the president (left too) they are trying to get over the protest..
But it is a long way to put all sardines back in the can.
which hand is stealing? If it is 'center' is both...
As the protest backfired agains the left and the president (left too) they are trying to get over the protest..
But it is a long way to put all sardines back in the can.
Regardless of who started it, attacking peaceful demonstrators and journalists with that much tear gas is just wrong. When you add that those they attacked where chanting no violence and where running away, the police should have done nothing at all.
Stop this nonsense. Don't give voice to those people. Just the 1st paragraph shows he has no clue of what's happening.
Nobody protested because of 20cents. Those were yearly protests by movement free pass (passe livre). Their goal is free public transportation and they do demonstrations for at least 10yrs.
It's just for effect that they time the demonstrations to the fare raises.
And now, the media giving voice to that kind of people is what made the govt get away with 20c less on the fare for this issue. It totally undermined the movement and alienated newcomers.
Those people eager to appear in the media effectively destroyed the leadership and turned the protest into a headless occupy wallstreet kind of thing.
Yesterday there were talks of the military taking opportunity and throwing A COUPE... Highly improbable but since now nobody has any direction, even within the gov, it was a real fear for some in the workers party that heads govmnt currently.
Nobody protested because of 20cents. Those were yearly protests by movement free pass (passe livre). Their goal is free public transportation and they do demonstrations for at least 10yrs.
It's just for effect that they time the demonstrations to the fare raises.
And now, the media giving voice to that kind of people is what made the govt get away with 20c less on the fare for this issue. It totally undermined the movement and alienated newcomers.
Those people eager to appear in the media effectively destroyed the leadership and turned the protest into a headless occupy wallstreet kind of thing.
Yesterday there were talks of the military taking opportunity and throwing A COUPE... Highly improbable but since now nobody has any direction, even within the gov, it was a real fear for some in the workers party that heads govmnt currently.
So if it didn't start because of public transport, why did it, and what is it about?
Just my 2 cents, but saying "paying one of the biggest taxes in the world" is really exaggerated
Income tax might not be so high, but taxes for products are very high. Electricity: about 45%, gasoline: about 50%. Import tax/PIS/Confins/ICMS are calculated one after the other, so you pay tax over tax.
Great article. Congrats, bro.
Sorry, but I call bs on this blog: "Feel Free To Kill Protesters", who said this? The author doesn't point any reference to confirm this quote, and I could not find it nowhere else.
- http://noticias.uol.com.br/cotidiano/ultimas-noticias/2013/0...
- http://g1.globo.com/sao-paulo/noticia/2013/06/apos-sugerir-m...
EDIT: You can see this in english here: http://frombrazil.blogfolha.uol.com.br/2013/06/14/fear-and-l... (search for "prosecutor")
- http://g1.globo.com/sao-paulo/noticia/2013/06/apos-sugerir-m...
EDIT: You can see this in english here: http://frombrazil.blogfolha.uol.com.br/2013/06/14/fear-and-l... (search for "prosecutor")
Unbelievable the downvote, it doesn't change the fact that Blog post has absolutely no references or names.
I'm brazilian and this article is a lie. nobody has heard about anybody saying this, and the visions the author of the article atributes to all the manifesters are just his visions.
also, the author is an idiot.
also, the author is an idiot.
So far the Brazilian politicians have been lucky that all these 1 million people haven't become violent and ask for their blood. Because to be honest, I think at least some of the corrupt leaders need to be punished severely, possibly even with the death penalty (like Ceausescu was in Romania).
It's really the only way they'll learn their lesson, and more importantly, future generations of politicians will know now to upset the population to the point where they'll revolt and ask for their execution. I'm not usually pro-death penalty, but if there's anyone deserving it, it's the oppressive/corrupt leaders that make millions of people suffer through their ruling.
I definitely think the leaders intentionally abusing their own Constitution deserve the death penalty, because if they don't get that, then it's just an invitation for future leaders to abuse it. They swore to protect it and obey it, and there needs to be a way to force them to do just that. Otherwise what's the point? Imagine how different things would be in US, if politicians would fear death penalty if they abuse the Constitution, and keep passing unconstitutional laws.
I feel almost the same way about bankers who get away with their crimes. How are they supposed to learn their lesson if they aren't even threatened by prison time, even though they lost the pensions and deposits of millions of people? If they think they have the potential to earn tens of billions of hundreds of billions from risking the money of those people, they'll be much more inclined to do it if they only risk a couple of billion in penalty, and that's it.
The population is supposed to rectify these sort of abuses by the elite in a society. It's up to the population to ultimately decide how much of a punishment these people get, and if their "representatives" aren't up for it, then they need to change them, or at least scare them into applying their will.