Ask HN: University of Michigan or Washington University in St. Louis?
I'm trying to choose between these two schools. I have to decide by Tuesday. I've spent days researching and talking to both staff and people I know at the schools, and can't come to a decision. Both are very different when it comes to student life, which is fine with me. When it comes to academics, I can't distinguish between them. Any thoughts?
6 comments
I ended up choosing the University of Michigan.
For CS? And how does the financial situation compare?
WashU: Lots of rich kids. If your parent(s) make under $400K you'll feel poor there. It's a boutique school.
UMich: Huge lectures, cold winters, football fans, etc. The honors program and engineering schools are both great.
If you're motivated you'll stand out from the crowd at Michigan, whereas at WashU most of the kids are fairly motivated, they just didn't quite get into Ivy. At Michigan, you'll meet quite a few people who got into Ivy League schools but didn't go for various reasons.
Both are great schools, though, so I think you could almost decide this with a coin toss.
UMich: Huge lectures, cold winters, football fans, etc. The honors program and engineering schools are both great.
If you're motivated you'll stand out from the crowd at Michigan, whereas at WashU most of the kids are fairly motivated, they just didn't quite get into Ivy. At Michigan, you'll meet quite a few people who got into Ivy League schools but didn't go for various reasons.
Both are great schools, though, so I think you could almost decide this with a coin toss.
Disclosure: I go to WashU, but I don't know too much about UMich outside of what I've heard from friends.
grandalf: I don't think you give a WashU a fair shake describing it as "if your parent(s) make under $400K you'll feel poor there."
Sure, there is a significant number of students whom do have quite a bit of money and you will surely know it. However, the majority of students are very down-to-earth and there are many students who are not wealthy that feel perfectly at home there, and don't feel excluded or "poor." There are numerous students I know of receiving financial aid, and they blend right in along with everyone else.
It's noticeably a "private" school, but I wouldn't call it a "boutique" school. UMich, of course, is much larger in scale being a public school, whereas WashU is a fraction of the size.
Despite the fact that most students at the school are fairly motivated, it is still very possible to stand out through hard work, or by doing something unique with your skills. The engineering school is fantastic (I am an art student myself, but most of my friends are either engineers or med students), but the sports at the school lacks. The teams aren't terrible, but they aren't very good -- if you must have sports, that's where UMich shines.
The dorm situation, if you haven't seen it, is very nice. The "South 40" is where all the major housing is (especially for Freshman and Sophomores), and they are actually building some brand-new housing for next year (they took out some of the older housing). The community aspect within the South 40 is great, lots of events held by RAs, student groups, etc.
As well, in your Junior and Senior years, you can live in "The Village", some of the school-owned apartments, or off-campus (there are lots of apartments and houses for rent within walking distance to the school). All are great living arrangements, though cost differs widely between them.
Both of the schools, as grandalf concluded, are great and either one makes for a fantastic choice. The major differences are the scale, weather, and "rah-rah"ness of the school.
grandalf: I don't think you give a WashU a fair shake describing it as "if your parent(s) make under $400K you'll feel poor there."
Sure, there is a significant number of students whom do have quite a bit of money and you will surely know it. However, the majority of students are very down-to-earth and there are many students who are not wealthy that feel perfectly at home there, and don't feel excluded or "poor." There are numerous students I know of receiving financial aid, and they blend right in along with everyone else.
It's noticeably a "private" school, but I wouldn't call it a "boutique" school. UMich, of course, is much larger in scale being a public school, whereas WashU is a fraction of the size.
Despite the fact that most students at the school are fairly motivated, it is still very possible to stand out through hard work, or by doing something unique with your skills. The engineering school is fantastic (I am an art student myself, but most of my friends are either engineers or med students), but the sports at the school lacks. The teams aren't terrible, but they aren't very good -- if you must have sports, that's where UMich shines.
The dorm situation, if you haven't seen it, is very nice. The "South 40" is where all the major housing is (especially for Freshman and Sophomores), and they are actually building some brand-new housing for next year (they took out some of the older housing). The community aspect within the South 40 is great, lots of events held by RAs, student groups, etc.
As well, in your Junior and Senior years, you can live in "The Village", some of the school-owned apartments, or off-campus (there are lots of apartments and houses for rent within walking distance to the school). All are great living arrangements, though cost differs widely between them.
Both of the schools, as grandalf concluded, are great and either one makes for a fantastic choice. The major differences are the scale, weather, and "rah-rah"ness of the school.
"if you must have sports, that's where UMich shines."
If you must have sports, you are 10 minutes from the professional sports teams, too.
If you must have sports, you are 10 minutes from the professional sports teams, too.
Disclaimer: I go to UMich. I can give you an honest opinion of what life is like as a student here, but know next to nothing of WashU over what grandalf has already said.
I'll get out the obvious out of the way: Michigan is cheaper. It's the most expensive public school in the country, but it's public. WashU is private; more expensive. I assume you know this.
There's something to be said for Ann Arbor--it's a very unique town. For the most part, almost the entire population of the town can sit in the Big House (the football stadium), so during the semester the town has a great young vibe. There's plenty of students living in most areas of the town. It's a great place to make friends. However, you honestly have to consider the weather. I grew up in a desert, but am fine with the blistering cold. I'll say this though: the weather, at least from what I heard, _is_ as bad as I was told.
The housing system has gotten better in the 4 years I have been here. The dining halls are now pretty awesome, and if you are able to live on Central Campus (definitely live on Central--West Quad or South Quad), you'll love it. As a freshman, you'll probably hate living on North Campus, and will be ambivalent towards living on the Hill. I'd highly recommend against living off-campus for at least your freshman year unless money is an issue.
Can't deny the school spirit. We're not a terribly rowdy bunch, but we love our sports. The Wolverines are known for excellent football (let it go) and ice hockey teams, and a re-emerging basketball team in terms of big sports. Every sport imaginable gets played at the varsity level though. Intramural sports are hugely popular as well, if you're into that.
As for the academics, Michigan is a solid all-round school. It excels at engineering and certain liberal arts, and has some of the top graduate programs at the university. You didn't specify exactly what you want to study, but there's brilliant research going on in almost every field where that is done, and you can get a piece of the action fairly easily.
You have to work to stand out. Expect intro chem (for example) to be 5 or 6 sections in a 500-person lecture hall. Other popular classes are exactly the same. Class sizes obviously shrink the further you go, and you get some more focused time with GSI's/TA's (all big schools do this) in discussions, but to be recognized by the professors you need to go out of your way.
I really have absolutely no idea how other schools do this, but at Michigan you're really encouraged to take a tremendous variety of classes. I don't know if this is something that appeals to you. For example, you'll find many mechanical engineering students in the 300-level philosophy classes because mecheng students are required to take a sequence of humanities/social science classes up to the 300-level and philosophy happens to be popular. Engineers very regularly get a math minor because it is encouraged given how much math you are required to take anyway. Economics majors very often double-major because the major is small, and the rest of the requirements for the economics major can be put towards other majors.
I've also found, for the most part, that the advising staff here for the specific majors are spot-on. Again, based on volume of students, you might not get someone remembering you semester-over-semester, but you'll get good advice without being judged on choices.
I'll assume that, given that this is HN, you're looking at CS. Michigan's CS is not the engineering department's strong suit, but it's still a very good program as far as I know. I have several friends doing EECS (electrical engineering and computer science), and, despite the tremendous workload, are enjoying it.
Remember: it's probably not wise to make a decision of this magnitude based on the ramblings of someone on a forum on the Internet. Go to the course websites of each school and look at the syllabus for each program. Look at what it costs to live in each city, what you like/don't like about each city etc.
If you make it to Michigan, good luck! I'm sure you'll have a fantastic time. I graduate next week, otherwise I would have shown you around in the fall, but you should do fine.
I'll get out the obvious out of the way: Michigan is cheaper. It's the most expensive public school in the country, but it's public. WashU is private; more expensive. I assume you know this.
There's something to be said for Ann Arbor--it's a very unique town. For the most part, almost the entire population of the town can sit in the Big House (the football stadium), so during the semester the town has a great young vibe. There's plenty of students living in most areas of the town. It's a great place to make friends. However, you honestly have to consider the weather. I grew up in a desert, but am fine with the blistering cold. I'll say this though: the weather, at least from what I heard, _is_ as bad as I was told.
The housing system has gotten better in the 4 years I have been here. The dining halls are now pretty awesome, and if you are able to live on Central Campus (definitely live on Central--West Quad or South Quad), you'll love it. As a freshman, you'll probably hate living on North Campus, and will be ambivalent towards living on the Hill. I'd highly recommend against living off-campus for at least your freshman year unless money is an issue.
Can't deny the school spirit. We're not a terribly rowdy bunch, but we love our sports. The Wolverines are known for excellent football (let it go) and ice hockey teams, and a re-emerging basketball team in terms of big sports. Every sport imaginable gets played at the varsity level though. Intramural sports are hugely popular as well, if you're into that.
As for the academics, Michigan is a solid all-round school. It excels at engineering and certain liberal arts, and has some of the top graduate programs at the university. You didn't specify exactly what you want to study, but there's brilliant research going on in almost every field where that is done, and you can get a piece of the action fairly easily.
You have to work to stand out. Expect intro chem (for example) to be 5 or 6 sections in a 500-person lecture hall. Other popular classes are exactly the same. Class sizes obviously shrink the further you go, and you get some more focused time with GSI's/TA's (all big schools do this) in discussions, but to be recognized by the professors you need to go out of your way.
I really have absolutely no idea how other schools do this, but at Michigan you're really encouraged to take a tremendous variety of classes. I don't know if this is something that appeals to you. For example, you'll find many mechanical engineering students in the 300-level philosophy classes because mecheng students are required to take a sequence of humanities/social science classes up to the 300-level and philosophy happens to be popular. Engineers very regularly get a math minor because it is encouraged given how much math you are required to take anyway. Economics majors very often double-major because the major is small, and the rest of the requirements for the economics major can be put towards other majors.
I've also found, for the most part, that the advising staff here for the specific majors are spot-on. Again, based on volume of students, you might not get someone remembering you semester-over-semester, but you'll get good advice without being judged on choices.
I'll assume that, given that this is HN, you're looking at CS. Michigan's CS is not the engineering department's strong suit, but it's still a very good program as far as I know. I have several friends doing EECS (electrical engineering and computer science), and, despite the tremendous workload, are enjoying it.
Remember: it's probably not wise to make a decision of this magnitude based on the ramblings of someone on a forum on the Internet. Go to the course websites of each school and look at the syllabus for each program. Look at what it costs to live in each city, what you like/don't like about each city etc.
If you make it to Michigan, good luck! I'm sure you'll have a fantastic time. I graduate next week, otherwise I would have shown you around in the fall, but you should do fine.
Disclaimer: I went to UMich.
Go to Michigan. It's a great combination of a GREAT school, fantastic school spirit, and great college town.
Also, as a hacker you might enjoy working on the Solar Car Team (http://www.umsolar.com) A few of us alums are here on HN, and it's an amazing experience. The car I built is on permanent display at the Museum of Science in Boston, which is pretty cool!
It's been a few too many years for me to speak directly to student life, but you'd be surprised at how a huge school can quickly get small. My senior year I would walk across Central Campus and always meet someone I knew... despite the fact I hadn't had a class there in 2+ years! (And neither had any of my other engineering classmates.)
My sister also went to Michigan (education major) and also loved the experience. It's tough to go wrong when the school excels at virtually every major available!
Happy to chat more; my contact details can be found through my profile.
Go to Michigan. It's a great combination of a GREAT school, fantastic school spirit, and great college town.
Also, as a hacker you might enjoy working on the Solar Car Team (http://www.umsolar.com) A few of us alums are here on HN, and it's an amazing experience. The car I built is on permanent display at the Museum of Science in Boston, which is pretty cool!
It's been a few too many years for me to speak directly to student life, but you'd be surprised at how a huge school can quickly get small. My senior year I would walk across Central Campus and always meet someone I knew... despite the fact I hadn't had a class there in 2+ years! (And neither had any of my other engineering classmates.)
My sister also went to Michigan (education major) and also loved the experience. It's tough to go wrong when the school excels at virtually every major available!
Happy to chat more; my contact details can be found through my profile.
Go to a community college for two years to finish all the bullshit required courses (050 or 100 level) and transfer them to either one for your major. Save money and you'll appreciate the intensive courses for two years knowing you won't be so poor when you graduate.
Assuming this is for CS or some other type of engineering, see if you can find out who recruits at both schools (who shows up at job fairs, who sponsors engineering expo, etc). When I worked at Xanga we visited UMich to recruit but we didn't go to WashU. Smaller places with a limited recruiting budget will probably recruit at larger schools simply because they're better known and you can talk to more people while you're there.
(This assumes that you have an interest in getting a job when you graduate.)
(This assumes that you have an interest in getting a job when you graduate.)