Tesla Hires Aston Martin's Vehicle Engineering Leader(ir.teslamotors.com)
ir.teslamotors.com
Tesla Hires Aston Martin's Vehicle Engineering Leader
http://ir.teslamotors.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=762317
7 comments
As someone who's anything but a greasemonkey, how good are Aston Martin from an engineering standpoint compared to the competition?
So here's the thing - they're not actually that good. Let me preface this by saying that a) my perspective isn't a normal consumer one -- my business has put tens of thousands of miles on various Aston Martin models (we rent them) and b) the last model I've dealt with extensively is an '06 DB9, so things may have changed a lot in the past few years.
But that being said, despite being IMHO the most gorgeous cars on the road, Astons are not particularly well-engineered.
First, we had an '02 Vanquish and an '03 Vanquish, both of which had a very fundamental and deeply expensive flaw in the transmission design. Without getting too deep into it, they used a "auto manual" style transmission, which was basically a 6-speed manual combined with hydrolic actuators to shift automatically. No manual clutchwork required (same design, basically, as BMWs SMG). On just about all similar cars, after a while (i.e. 12k - 15k miles) the clutch needs to be replaced. On Ferraris and Lamborghinis, it's a simple job that costs a few $thousand - drop the transmission, replace clutch and flywheel, and you're good. On both the Vanquishes, the way in which the clutch would fail would literally destroy the entire transmission, and we TWICE had to spend $15,000 to rebuild the entire transmission after a failed clutch (one on each car). I've never seen another car with design like that, and since it happened the exact same way on two different cars, we're pretty sure it's endemic to the design.
Move to the later models - we had a bunch of 05 & 06 DB9s, and they just weren't great. The brakes were notoriously bad, the bodyflex was particularly bad on the convertibles, and they suffered repeated electrical gremlins.
So from my purely technical perspective as a heavy user of Astons, I'd say I'm not impressed with their engineering.
NOW - that all being said, I'm not going to make any judgment about this guy and his work at Tesla and what this means about that. There is far too much that goes into the production of a car to make any real judgment call about things to come -- Astons could have been beautifully engineered and then ruined with bad supplier decisions, that were outside this guy's control. Etc. etc.
So them's my $0.02.
But that being said, despite being IMHO the most gorgeous cars on the road, Astons are not particularly well-engineered.
First, we had an '02 Vanquish and an '03 Vanquish, both of which had a very fundamental and deeply expensive flaw in the transmission design. Without getting too deep into it, they used a "auto manual" style transmission, which was basically a 6-speed manual combined with hydrolic actuators to shift automatically. No manual clutchwork required (same design, basically, as BMWs SMG). On just about all similar cars, after a while (i.e. 12k - 15k miles) the clutch needs to be replaced. On Ferraris and Lamborghinis, it's a simple job that costs a few $thousand - drop the transmission, replace clutch and flywheel, and you're good. On both the Vanquishes, the way in which the clutch would fail would literally destroy the entire transmission, and we TWICE had to spend $15,000 to rebuild the entire transmission after a failed clutch (one on each car). I've never seen another car with design like that, and since it happened the exact same way on two different cars, we're pretty sure it's endemic to the design.
Move to the later models - we had a bunch of 05 & 06 DB9s, and they just weren't great. The brakes were notoriously bad, the bodyflex was particularly bad on the convertibles, and they suffered repeated electrical gremlins.
So from my purely technical perspective as a heavy user of Astons, I'd say I'm not impressed with their engineering.
NOW - that all being said, I'm not going to make any judgment about this guy and his work at Tesla and what this means about that. There is far too much that goes into the production of a car to make any real judgment call about things to come -- Astons could have been beautifully engineered and then ruined with bad supplier decisions, that were outside this guy's control. Etc. etc.
So them's my $0.02.
I think you are being a bit unfair.
Gearbox wise, they were on the edge of what they knew, but had to keep up with the competition, and well, pointless fashion. It was an optional extra that customers didn't have to have. That gearbox is not typical of the engineering at AML. Yeah, they should have not released it with out more R&D, but equally, the gearbox is not representative of the whole package.
Bodyflex wise, or the loss of torsional rigidity is what happens when you cut a roof off, and well, make things worse by adding a load of structure to make up for it, ish, adding weight. But that happens to greater or lesser extents with other cars. All lose torsional rigidity and gain weight, unless specifically designed to be convertible. The DB9 is long, and there for suffers more than a shorter car. Same problem with a DBS, but why any one would want to buy a DBS and compromise it is beyond me. But, much better with the Vantage. So, IMHO, you get what you gat. If you must have a DB9 type car chopped up, it will flex more.
Dunno what's wrong with the brakes, but given that you say the problem was for 2 years of production suggests that its a problem solved.
Electrics. Ahhhh, never a good thing on Astons!! Which for Tesla is pretty ironic.
Gearbox wise, they were on the edge of what they knew, but had to keep up with the competition, and well, pointless fashion. It was an optional extra that customers didn't have to have. That gearbox is not typical of the engineering at AML. Yeah, they should have not released it with out more R&D, but equally, the gearbox is not representative of the whole package.
Bodyflex wise, or the loss of torsional rigidity is what happens when you cut a roof off, and well, make things worse by adding a load of structure to make up for it, ish, adding weight. But that happens to greater or lesser extents with other cars. All lose torsional rigidity and gain weight, unless specifically designed to be convertible. The DB9 is long, and there for suffers more than a shorter car. Same problem with a DBS, but why any one would want to buy a DBS and compromise it is beyond me. But, much better with the Vantage. So, IMHO, you get what you gat. If you must have a DB9 type car chopped up, it will flex more.
Dunno what's wrong with the brakes, but given that you say the problem was for 2 years of production suggests that its a problem solved.
Electrics. Ahhhh, never a good thing on Astons!! Which for Tesla is pretty ironic.
>Electrics. Ahhhh, never a good thing on Astons!!
Nonsense, and it's also why this hire makes so much sense. In addition to the engine, underneath the hood is an incredibly powerful electromagnet that's an extraordinary example of their engineering prowess.
It's the opposite polarity of the ones installed in each dealership's service garage, which is why they always end up back at their service department.
Nonsense, and it's also why this hire makes so much sense. In addition to the engine, underneath the hood is an incredibly powerful electromagnet that's an extraordinary example of their engineering prowess.
It's the opposite polarity of the ones installed in each dealership's service garage, which is why they always end up back at their service department.
I had to read that three times, but the payoff was worth it. Thanks.
Aston-Martin's developed manufacturable monopoles!?
>Electrics. Ahhhh, never a good thing on Astons!!
Or European cars in general, in my experience. (VW, Mercedes, MINI, Volvo -- all had bad-to-severe electrical problems for me)
Or European cars in general, in my experience. (VW, Mercedes, MINI, Volvo -- all had bad-to-severe electrical problems for me)
My neighbor used to have an F430 or F360 (I forget) and told me that he allocated $25k a year for maintenance and clutch replacement.
The DCT on the 458 is rated for the life of the car, though.
Note that Aston was sold in 2007 and I believe engineering quality changed after that.
The DCT on the 458 is rated for the life of the car, though.
Note that Aston was sold in 2007 and I believe engineering quality changed after that.
The things you don't hear about on Top Gear. Do you think there's anywhere else I can go to read stuff like what you wrote?
Top Gear is an entertainment show. With staff of writers and producers. Everything is preplanned, everything that is said is said with entertainment and marketing in mind. Almost no factual substance. I think it's hardly surprising that they don't do thorough technical analysis.
Fifth Gear is along the lines of Top Gear, but a little more fact based.
My personal favorite is Evo car magazine based out of the UK. They do "long term tests" for a lot of exotics like Aston Martins. As an example here is a review of the V8 Vantage from a few years ago: http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evolongtermtests/202705/asto...
My personal favorite is Evo car magazine based out of the UK. They do "long term tests" for a lot of exotics like Aston Martins. As an example here is a review of the V8 Vantage from a few years ago: http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evolongtermtests/202705/asto...
I actually just watched those back episodes of Top Gear two days ago. I thought they conveyed most of the things said by your parent fairly well.
They expressed extreme disgust with the gearbox, demonstrating clearly how non-functional it was, and showed comparisons with cars in the same price range in which it had much more body roll and braking distance.
> NOW - that all being said, I'm not going to make any judgment about this guy and his work at Tesla and what this means about that. There is far too much that goes into the production of a car to make any real judgment call about things to come -- Astons could have been beautifully engineered and then ruined with bad supplier decisions, that were outside this guy's control. Etc. etc.
One encouraging thing: with the Roadster, Tesla took a Lotus chassis and made something magnificent out of it with brand new drivetrain technology. They based a car on a Lotus, who hasn't made a reliable car... ever? (they're wonderful cars in their way, but sorry, it's true) From what you're saying, perhaps it's sort of similar to Aston.
If it's an ability to turn sketchy-but-brilliant British design into great cars that's needed, they seem to have it.
One encouraging thing: with the Roadster, Tesla took a Lotus chassis and made something magnificent out of it with brand new drivetrain technology. They based a car on a Lotus, who hasn't made a reliable car... ever? (they're wonderful cars in their way, but sorry, it's true) From what you're saying, perhaps it's sort of similar to Aston.
If it's an ability to turn sketchy-but-brilliant British design into great cars that's needed, they seem to have it.
>Lotus, who hasn't made a reliable car... ever?
The US-spec Elise/Exiges were powered by a fairly mundane Toyota engine. Body panel costs aside, it's a cheap, reliable, unpractical, and great vehicle.
The US-spec Elise/Exiges were powered by a fairly mundane Toyota engine. Body panel costs aside, it's a cheap, reliable, unpractical, and great vehicle.
> cheap, reliable, unpractical, and great vehicle.
Best description of a Lotus Elise ever. That car was designed purely and simply for driving enjoyment.
Best description of a Lotus Elise ever. That car was designed purely and simply for driving enjoyment.
I've never doubted that the Toyota engine is reliable. If Lotus made a car with reliable electronics, that strikes me as revolutionary. :)
Were they any fun to drive? After Ford bought Aston, I always assumed the cars would feel like souped-up Tauruses with Connolly leather interiors, but I've never actually sat behind the wheel of an Aston.
Absolutely. Quality issues aside, they're spectacular cars and very emotional experiences. Watch this video and tell me it doesn't get your blood pumping ;)
http://www.astonmartin.com/cars/vanquish/video#1
http://www.astonmartin.com/cars/vanquish/video#1
rubish
I love how Aston styling has affected Ford.
Aston Martin engineers good cars for their production volume. Since they are more or less in the same production volume as where tesla wants to be in the medium term, I would say his experience will bring a lot to Tesla. It was probably one of the best pick-ups they could have made.
The car is brilliant, especially in terms of design and engine, but it's a small scale production and they don't have the means of Porsche, Mercedes, Audi (great but not perfect though) or Ferrari and therefore aren't state of the art when it comes to gearbox, transmission and brakes.
The worst part is the gearbox who is notoriously unreliable and many models have issues around 20,000 km.
It's really upsetting to put 100 k€ in a car to have the reliability of a 80' Lancia.
That being said I love Aston Martin, they make awesome cars. Probably the best car body there is to date.
But if you're looking for engineering perfection, get a Porsche 911 Turbo.
The worst part is the gearbox who is notoriously unreliable and many models have issues around 20,000 km.
It's really upsetting to put 100 k€ in a car to have the reliability of a 80' Lancia.
That being said I love Aston Martin, they make awesome cars. Probably the best car body there is to date.
But if you're looking for engineering perfection, get a Porsche 911 Turbo.
That really depends.
They do sound way, way better though.
I got to drive a Vantage GT4 on the racetrack recently: http://www.flickr.com/photos/joshu/8368748201/in/set-7215763...
They do sound way, way better though.
I got to drive a Vantage GT4 on the racetrack recently: http://www.flickr.com/photos/joshu/8368748201/in/set-7215763...
Their direct competitors are Porsche and Ferrari, not Ford and Toyota. They're GOOD.
"good" is a very murky term here. They are certainly more high-tech, but are they as simple? As reliable? As easy to service?
You really need to define "good" in this context.
You really need to define "good" in this context.
Reliability has always been a criticism of Aston Martins. Apart from that though, stunning cars to both look at and drive. A friend is a car dealer and he lent me a Vantage V8 for a while. This was the cheapest, most base level Aston Martin, but still a stunning piece of kit in every department. Have to say, despite the reliability criticisms, it didn't fail in any way.
One thing that I didnt expect was how easy it was to drive. Im a rubbish driver and one thing I hate is changing cars. I get used to my car and other cars a like aliens to me, until I get used to them. But I was at home in the Vantage with in a mile. So, so easy to drive.
Quite what Tesla will get out of it though, Im not sure. Perhaps its a quality / value / production thing. I do think that in context Aston Martins are very good value.
One thing that I didnt expect was how easy it was to drive. Im a rubbish driver and one thing I hate is changing cars. I get used to my car and other cars a like aliens to me, until I get used to them. But I was at home in the Vantage with in a mile. So, so easy to drive.
Quite what Tesla will get out of it though, Im not sure. Perhaps its a quality / value / production thing. I do think that in context Aston Martins are very good value.
you're asking if something is as simple as a ferarri?
I think he was trying to argue that "good" is subjective. That Ferrari/Porsche aren't necessarily good, as it depends on what you value. If you value simplicity and reliability, perhaps you would view Toyota/Honda as superior.
Actually, Porsche has been #2 in reliability (J.D. Power Vehicle Dependability Survey) for two years running (behind Toyota's Lexus brand), #4 in 2011, and was the leader in 2010.
However, to be perfectly fair, your average Porsche sees far fewer miles per year than a bread-and-butter mid-size sedan.
However, to be perfectly fair, your average Porsche sees far fewer miles per year than a bread-and-butter mid-size sedan.
They're perfectly usable as daily drivers.
Guy on my block parks his 911 Carerra 4S on the street, drives it every day. It makes me happy that he actually uses it, and also makes me feel better about parking my normal car on the street.
They're not exactly exotics or anything. If he DD'd a GT3 or something that would be more impressive.
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I'm no expert, but I know that they're highly respected in industry.
TSLA is up on the news - have a look at the end of today's graph: https://www.google.com/finance?q=NASDAQ%3ATSLA&ei=vSGIUe...
As someone who bought several thousand shares at $17/share when it went IPO, its hard not to be excited for TSLA.
Heck, I bought 100 shares when it was at $40 and even I feel incredibly lucky!
Tesla shares are the only reason this is on the front page here.
Tesla also recruited Henrik Fisker from Aston Martin. Those who don't know of Fisker, he went on to found his own company after a couple of years at Tesla(http://www.fiskerautomotive.com/).
Looks like Aston Martin have some serious talent working on those machines.
Looks like Aston Martin have some serious talent working on those machines.
Fisker then left Fisker Automatives, and that company is now in the process of dying or dead.
Could have something to do with a pending deal with AMG which would lead to a very different development cycle. http://www.leftlanenews.com/aston-martin-in-talks-for-amg-en...
From a reliability standpoint there have been more problems with them than their German counterparts (ie: Lamborghini - engineered by Audi with Italian design, or Porsche). From an engine perspective this move makes a lot of sense with the rising cost of compliance with EU emission standards.
Cars will continue to look awesome, will be more reliable and cheaper (relatively) to service.
From a reliability standpoint there have been more problems with them than their German counterparts (ie: Lamborghini - engineered by Audi with Italian design, or Porsche). From an engine perspective this move makes a lot of sense with the rising cost of compliance with EU emission standards.
Cars will continue to look awesome, will be more reliable and cheaper (relatively) to service.
I was wondering why Elon tweeted, "Anyone interested in doing ultra hardcore vehicle engineering at Tesla, please apply!" but now it makes sense.
On a similar note, isn't it odd that this position is just being filled?
Elon's Twitter Page: https://twitter.com/elonmusk
On a similar note, isn't it odd that this position is just being filled?
Elon's Twitter Page: https://twitter.com/elonmusk
His previous tweet before that read "Chris Porritt from Aston Martin just joined as head of vehicle engineering at Tesla"
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/331489911842689025
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/331489911842689025
Always be closing amazing talent.
Hilarious review of an Aston Martin Vantage - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mi0yXeuqBjU
Man I wish I had capital now... or a year ago... or 13 years ago when I told my parents they should buy AAPL.
Oh well. The best investment you can make is always yourself.
Oh well. The best investment you can make is always yourself.