I Wish Nest Did More Than Thermostats(jorgecastro.org)
jorgecastro.org
I Wish Nest Did More Than Thermostats
http://www.jorgecastro.org/2013/05/03/i-wish-nest-did-more-than-thermostats/
54 comments
Even the Nest, with it's simple dial would probably scare them, because smart things scare stupid people.
Sigh. Yes, that's it. They must be "stupid."
Sigh. Yes, that's it. They must be "stupid."
That thing looks like a nightmare. I don't blame them.
This is where Bluetooth Low Energy (BLE) with web tech (ideally) and/or Apps (practically) could shine: the sprinkler system could vend a much better software UI to our smartphones than the hardware UI it's currently offering.
Did Android ever get their act together on BLE? Last I checked there are a lot of phones out there with perfectly good BLE chipsets that the OS doesn't acknowledge.
I can't stand UI controllers for physical stuff:
1. When you want to change some parameter of the physical thing, you have to know where your phone is. You can't just go there.
2. You need to take your phone out of your pocket, navigate to the icon, press it, wait, probably tap a button or two, then slide your fingers along a smooth surface in some sort of complex pattern. Meanwhile, you could have walked downstairs and turned a dial, which you can actually feel with your fingers and you don't need to look at.
Nest makes big awesome dials. I too wish more startups with good designers would find some way to displace common hardware controls that are unfamiliar and complex.
1. When you want to change some parameter of the physical thing, you have to know where your phone is. You can't just go there.
2. You need to take your phone out of your pocket, navigate to the icon, press it, wait, probably tap a button or two, then slide your fingers along a smooth surface in some sort of complex pattern. Meanwhile, you could have walked downstairs and turned a dial, which you can actually feel with your fingers and you don't need to look at.
Nest makes big awesome dials. I too wish more startups with good designers would find some way to displace common hardware controls that are unfamiliar and complex.
An irrigation system is far more complicated than a thermostat however there are already strong contenders in this space. I use a Cyber-Rain[1] controller which adjusts based on humidity, temperature and forecast along with details provided during setup such as sprinkler types, soil types, grade and more. When your system has a flow sensor the controller will even shut down the system in the event of a broken head and send an email instead of letting hundreds of gallons of water run down the street.
[1]http://cyber-rain.com
[1]http://cyber-rain.com
I've had this exact same thought. The other area is pools. Turning on the pool heater and pump via wifi, or turning the hot tub on as I leave from work.
I find these guys very interesting http://irrigationcaddy.com
This appears to be the manual for that sprinkler controller: http://www.rainbird.com/documents/turf/man_ESPModular.pdf
Setting the time doesn't appear to be too painful.
Setting the time doesn't appear to be too painful.
His point stands: if you need a manual to set the time, then the UI is poorly designed. Period.
They will, once they feel that their thermostat is satisfactory enough.
This seems like kind of a silly. The Ubuntu panel he shows there is simple because programmers have hidden all the complexity. Whoever installed the sprinkler system hid the complexity too - they closed the door on the sprinkler control panel. If you wanted it to be simple, you should have left the door closed. You don't need to adjust it. It should have been programmed by the installer to account for seasonal rainfall. Day-to-day rain does not matter at all to your sprinkler programming.
If you want to poke around (literally) under the hood, you don't get to complain about complexity.
If you want to poke around (literally) under the hood, you don't get to complain about complexity.
But the point is it shouldn't feel like you are going "under the hood" to simply change sprinkler schedule. We still INTERACT with Nest without the need to go under the hood. If you simply "closed the door of sprinkler", you can't interact with it. Nest hides the complexity and provides simple interface for the user.
[deleted]
The problem is that poking around under the hood shouldn't be necessary. If the sprinkler system worked well enough without ever needing to open the hood, then everything's fine. But it looks like that's not the case.
Not only is it unnecessary to poke around under the hood, it's bad. If you're changing your sprinkler configuration, you're doing it wrong. You're supposed to set the schedule and never touch it again. Changing the schedule (because of rain or weather) is not as good for your lawn as just leaving everything alone. The only control you should ever be touching is the master shutoff valve. Your sprinkler isn't supposed to care about daily rainfall, because that doesn't matter in lawn care.
The only problem with the sprinkler in the article is that the internal clock is set wrong, and you can be pretty sure that the reason the internal clock is wrong is because the author tried to tweak things. Don't do that, and the problems go away.
The only problem with the sprinkler in the article is that the internal clock is set wrong, and you can be pretty sure that the reason the internal clock is wrong is because the author tried to tweak things. Don't do that, and the problems go away.
If you're changing your sprinkler configuration, you're doing it wrong.
Or your lawn is dying because there hasn't been enough rain. Or your lawn is dying because there's been too much rain. Or you're resodding a part of your lawn. Or you're removing part of your lawn to put in a garden. Or you've started using rainbarrels to naturally irrigate your backyard. Or your city has changed which days you can water your lawn on.
you can be pretty sure that the reason the internal clock is wrong is because the author tried to tweak things.
It could also be because the power went out or because of Daylight Saving Time.
Or your lawn is dying because there hasn't been enough rain. Or your lawn is dying because there's been too much rain. Or you're resodding a part of your lawn. Or you're removing part of your lawn to put in a garden. Or you've started using rainbarrels to naturally irrigate your backyard. Or your city has changed which days you can water your lawn on.
you can be pretty sure that the reason the internal clock is wrong is because the author tried to tweak things.
It could also be because the power went out or because of Daylight Saving Time.
What? You are speaking as if all seasons are the same year after year. Last winter here in the valley during winter the rain started months after it was supposed to and it was spotty at best.
I would argue the opposite, that the more you tinker with your system you will get better and better results. Daily rainfall does matter in lawn care because during hot summer days like this, you do need more water than during cool, cloudy winter days. This is common sense to anyone with half a green thumb. Not to mention, during the rainy season, you will probably do damage to your lawn if you over water.
I would argue the opposite, that the more you tinker with your system you will get better and better results. Daily rainfall does matter in lawn care because during hot summer days like this, you do need more water than during cool, cloudy winter days. This is common sense to anyone with half a green thumb. Not to mention, during the rainy season, you will probably do damage to your lawn if you over water.
And all of that doesn't forgive bad UI. As the end user, the chap that installed the system shouldn't have to put up with a bad UI. There is absolutely no excuse for a poorly designed interface. None.
But completely apart from the health of your lawn, wouldn't you save water if you had the sprinkler cancel a regularly scheduled watering if it fell during a rain storm?
Well, it's an interesting question. Is there a market for a $300 sprinkler controller? Rain Bird doesn't think so. I paid about $50 for my controller, and it's relatively easy to use, certainly better than the OPs: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003LY4I14/ref=wms_ohs_prod...
Also, the OP is eliding over the fact that that controller is probably 10 years old.
Also, the OP is eliding over the fact that that controller is probably 10 years old.
It may be 10 years old, but it's still what's being sold:
http://www.amazon.com/Rain-Bird-ESP-4M-4-Station-Controller/...
I have used those exact sprinkler system controls and can attest that they are absolutely terrible.
Nest folks, once you are happy with your thermostat product please pivot to water heaters. There is no reason why I heat the water in the tank up throughout the night. I think that my household demand for hot water is fairly predictable with spikes in the morning for showering and in the evening for dishes and laundry.
I've considered doing this manually, but when I ran the numbers, it barely saved anything, at least if your water heater is insulated to modern Energy Star standards. In the past decade or two, standby losses have been brought down so low that they're almost negligible compared to actual hot-water usage, e.g. one shower will take more energy than a whole month of standby heating.
When I looked into it in my own case, it worked out to slightly under 1 kWh/day in standby losses, or about $2/month. I turned off the water heater when I was gone for a month once, and the savings do seem to have been in the noise somewhere. Assuming a Nest-like device to do that for me would cost the same ~$250 that a Nest does, it would take 20 years to recoup the cost of the device, even assuming it was so perfect that it saved all standby losses.
When I looked into it in my own case, it worked out to slightly under 1 kWh/day in standby losses, or about $2/month. I turned off the water heater when I was gone for a month once, and the savings do seem to have been in the noise somewhere. Assuming a Nest-like device to do that for me would cost the same ~$250 that a Nest does, it would take 20 years to recoup the cost of the device, even assuming it was so perfect that it saved all standby losses.
Nice. How did you estimate the standby costs? I wonder if gas v. electric makes a difference? Any chance you live in a colder (40 degree basement in winter) climate?
[deleted]
In general, there's a good reason for heating the water overnight: electricity is often cheaper at night, and (on a national level) it means that electricity demand is spread more evenly over the whole 24 hours.
This is a good idea, but are you by chance located outside the US? Every water heater I've personally encountered in North America has been powered by natural gas. Even so, it only takes an hour or so to fully replenish the hot water, so it still makes sense to allow the water to cool down between, say, midnight and 5am.
Huge swaths of the U.S. simply don't have natural gas. The township that I used to live in explicitly stated in their planning that they did not intend to run gas lines.
My current place doesn't have gas either...
My current place doesn't have gas either...
Yeah, I'm in New Zealand.
Electricity is cheaper at night (from some utilities) because the demand is a lot lower at night. But why is it a good idea to heat water at night when I'm not going to use it?
And as others have pointed out I have a natural gas heater.
And as others have pointed out I have a natural gas heater.
also residential customers usually do not have hourly rates, rather fixed per kWh monthly ones.
Have you thought about switching to a tankless hot water system?
So I can spend $2800 on a water heater that has questionable reliability, requires a bigger gas line, and will save me 40% off my $18 a month water heating bill?
Yes. I've thought of it, but no, it is not a good idea.
Yes. I've thought of it, but no, it is not a good idea.
I think your pricing is a little off; my parents have had a Rinnai heater now for more than several years with no reliability issues and spent far less than $2800. Even Amazon has them priced much lower [1].
1 - http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=rinnai+water+h...
1 - http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=rinnai+water+h...
This looks like a good resource on the topic:
http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/waterheaters.html
http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/waterheaters.html
Virtually everyone modern home has thermostats, but far fewer households have dumb water boilers.
There is no reason why I heat the water in the tank up throughout the night
Aside from the fact that you need the water to remain above a certain level or the water can become dangerous (e.g. legionella), what happens the night you play glow in the dark flag football and decide to take a shower? Or do a load of dishes? Etc.
The Nest "works" (in the absolutely marginal way that it does so) because it makes a middling difference. That would be a stark difference with a hot water tank.
Aside from the fact that you need the water to remain above a certain level or the water can become dangerous (e.g. legionella), what happens the night you play glow in the dark flag football and decide to take a shower? Or do a load of dishes? Etc.
The Nest "works" (in the absolutely marginal way that it does so) because it makes a middling difference. That would be a stark difference with a hot water tank.
What happens the night i stay up late with the nest and want the heat turned up?
My dishwasher contains a heating element and so does the clothes washer.
My dishwasher contains a heating element and so does the clothes washer.
What happens the night i stay up late with the nest and want the heat turned up?
Put on a sweater? But yes, what you describe is exactly how many people with Nest thermostats end up disabling the "intelligent" functions.
Put on a sweater? But yes, what you describe is exactly how many people with Nest thermostats end up disabling the "intelligent" functions.
"For bonus points it would also check Google Maps and compare how green my lawn is to my neighbors"
How's that going to work when the imagery isn't real time?
How's that going to work when the imagery isn't real time?
Alternatively, it could check what neighbours' sprinkler systems are set to, and recommend the median or mean (or maybe just the max of immediately adjacent neighbours).
He's just making a wishlist of features; the particular method of implementation doesn't have to match.
He's just making a wishlist of features; the particular method of implementation doesn't have to match.
Glad to hear Nest is still around. Last I heard, they were getting the thermonuclear treatment from Honeywell's patent attorneys. Was that resolved recently?
Agreed. But specifically for lawns, I actually wish someone makes much cheaper artificial turfs. Good for aesthetics, better for the environment.. saves hassle time money and water.
This can't be all that far away. At the size of a baseball field, I'm told it's a no-brainer to go turf at this point.
I don't actually know the prices, I'm trusting the college coaches who have mentioned this to me over the last several years (I umpire on the side). One has been on artificial turf for three years, another put turf in this year, and the rest want them.
I don't actually know the prices, I'm trusting the college coaches who have mentioned this to me over the last several years (I umpire on the side). One has been on artificial turf for three years, another put turf in this year, and the rest want them.
The usage patterns of a baseball field and a lawn at one's house are generally not going to be very similar, so it doesn't necessarily follow that what's cheaper for one is cheaper for the other. (I have no idea how the prices actually compare.)
Personally, I don't want Nest; I'd prefer coherent locally accessible APIs for monitoring and control.
We're working on it.
https://github.com/makilian/Mist
https://github.com/makilian/Mist
Any more info you can share? I'm very interested in something like this.
Yes. I few friends and I have been working on this for a few months as a school project. We're done with school now, but we may still continue the project. So far we have been more focused on the mathematics and the software and less focused on the product because the project was for school.
Myself and a friend looked in to doing this for sprinkler timers. The aim was to simplify the interface to a large degree and allow for configuration via a browser or mobile device.
As it turns out there is a patent on sprinkler timers with embedded web servers. The owner of the patent has posted hostile messages threatening legal action on any public facing website that posts about the handful of consumer products that might infringe on their patent.
Here is a link to the patent: http://www.google.com/patents/US7010396
As it turns out there is a patent on sprinkler timers with embedded web servers. The owner of the patent has posted hostile messages threatening legal action on any public facing website that posts about the handful of consumer products that might infringe on their patent.
Here is a link to the patent: http://www.google.com/patents/US7010396
This makes me sad.
Even the Nest, with it's simple dial would probably scare them, because smart things scare stupid people.
When I tell them that it's an Internet enabled thermostat, they must immediately think, "OMG CHINA HAXORS GUNNA STEAL MY THERMOSTAT MHZ" because that's what the scare-monger media has been telling them over the last six months.