Facebook’s “I F*cking Love Science” does not love artists(blogs.scientificamerican.com)
blogs.scientificamerican.com
Facebook’s “I F*cking Love Science” does not love artists
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/compound-eye/2013/04/23/facebooks-i-fcking-love-science-does-not-fcking-love-artists/
15 comments
I think we should relax about the idea that most people post inaccurate facts when they're cheering science.
What they're doing is cheering for the idea of science. It's similar to people cheering at a basketball game. They're not basketball players, so most of what they have to say about the topic is going to be wrong. But they're still rooting for you, and this is a good and powerful thing.
What they're doing is cheering for the idea of science. It's similar to people cheering at a basketball game. They're not basketball players, so most of what they have to say about the topic is going to be wrong. But they're still rooting for you, and this is a good and powerful thing.
> I think we should relax about the idea that most people post inaccurate facts when they're cheering science.
The absolute only good thing about this is that it fights fire with fire: that is, it uses tribalism to fight tribalism.
But that's all it is. Atheistic religiosity is still religiosity, and it's a problem whether or not magical woo is involved. It's the same kind of thing when people think that calling out a fallacy is some kind of argumentative coup d'etat.
Or let's bring this back to software and business. How exactly do you feel when your sales team drastically overpromises your engineering capabilities?
That's how I feel.
The absolute only good thing about this is that it fights fire with fire: that is, it uses tribalism to fight tribalism.
But that's all it is. Atheistic religiosity is still religiosity, and it's a problem whether or not magical woo is involved. It's the same kind of thing when people think that calling out a fallacy is some kind of argumentative coup d'etat.
Or let's bring this back to software and business. How exactly do you feel when your sales team drastically overpromises your engineering capabilities?
That's how I feel.
I agree: fanatics of magic woo are indistinguishable from sufficiently advanced fanatics of technological woo.
> Atheistic religiosity is still religiosity
Right. Replacing one form of blind adherence with another is not an improvement.
There are people who have no blind adherence to anything. It is possible, and we need more of them. That isn't something IFLS can help with.
Right. Replacing one form of blind adherence with another is not an improvement.
There are people who have no blind adherence to anything. It is possible, and we need more of them. That isn't something IFLS can help with.
"Atheistic religiosity is still religiosity"
A lack of belief in God is not a belief in a God. Your example is ignorant.
A lack of belief in God is not a belief in a God. Your example is ignorant.
Are you so sure? A person that is conditioned to follow an idea will behave in a conditioned way, I doesn't matter the topic. When you are conditioned to beleave and cheer a "scientific" fact, it is improbable that you'll allow new facts to replace your beleave. You have made a new religion wit a new "Idol".
"When you are conditioned to beleave and cheer a "scientific" fact, it is improbable that you'll allow new facts to replace your beleave. You have made a new religion wit a new "Idol"."
Religion is the belief in an absence of evidence. Science is the whole of objective reality. You don't seem to understand what "science" and "religion" actually mean, but you really don't like persons who don't believe in anything, so you assign bizarrely negative qualifiers for someone who knows things.
No one on earth worships "SCIENCE". It's a tool we use daily, whether you understand why things work or not.
Religion is the belief in an absence of evidence. Science is the whole of objective reality. You don't seem to understand what "science" and "religion" actually mean, but you really don't like persons who don't believe in anything, so you assign bizarrely negative qualifiers for someone who knows things.
No one on earth worships "SCIENCE". It's a tool we use daily, whether you understand why things work or not.
All that you say is true, but at the same time I don't think you are getting my point. Atthe human level religion is nothing more than emotion, social and group dinamics and conditioning. Then there are the folcloric items, like gods, prayers, popes, books...
But as humans we are always susceptible of falling in all the conditioning, emotion and tribalism present in religion. Even in cience, even cientifics are able to take a useful and teorically neutral tool and make it into a "religion". Obviously thanks to the properties of science, a behaviour like that has a limited life span, and will fal under evidence. It doesn't mean it can not happen, and that is not going to create problems.
Not just because someone thinks in himself as scientist, is automatically free of the burden of being human.
In this matter is interesting, "The structure of scientific revolutions" by Thomas S Kuhn. On how old scientists resist to the new evidences(that eventually replace the old ones), because it will change everything their career is based on.
"Even in cience, even cientifics are able to take a useful and teorically neutral tool and make it into a "religion"."
Outside of parapsychology, cold fusion, and free energy devices, how are you stating that this occurs as a regular practice? I criticize scientists from within the framework of poor evidence, biases, systemic issues, but calling it a "religion" misses the point. Personal biases don't make a religion. Watered down pop-science isn't a religion either.
Outside of parapsychology, cold fusion, and free energy devices, how are you stating that this occurs as a regular practice? I criticize scientists from within the framework of poor evidence, biases, systemic issues, but calling it a "religion" misses the point. Personal biases don't make a religion. Watered down pop-science isn't a religion either.
"Religion is the belief in an absence of evidence." Quoi?
May be you have some particular religion in mind, but many beliefs coexist happily with science.
There is a domain where atheists and many religious people agree on. Which is the domain that is not covered by the particular religion and that is covered by the scientific method (do an experiment, analyse data, get conclusions, rinse, repeat). Choice of medicine is one such area. True, some religions believe in voodoo or other "alternative medicine" but that is not part of the definition of religion.
The critical question is what to do with things we have no physical evidence of, things which we have no data of, are uncertain of. Things that science has not reached a verdict on. Religions typically have loads of these. The existence of god/gods for example. Having such a belief does not contradict the available science at the time, so we can have a scientist who believes in gods carrying on his research cheerfully. Atheists don't believe in gods unless there is physical proof. That also does not contradict doing some scientific research. The issue comes when you mistake "SCIENCE", the tool we use daily, with "science", the set of propositions, heuristics, conjectures and half-baked theories that will always exist at the frontiers of research. That effectively means you choose to place your trust in the set of current researchers and if they get it wrong, you get it wrong.
In short, science is not and has never been the whole of objective reality. This assigns mythical powers to scientists, which some would certainly call a "religion".
May be you have some particular religion in mind, but many beliefs coexist happily with science.
There is a domain where atheists and many religious people agree on. Which is the domain that is not covered by the particular religion and that is covered by the scientific method (do an experiment, analyse data, get conclusions, rinse, repeat). Choice of medicine is one such area. True, some religions believe in voodoo or other "alternative medicine" but that is not part of the definition of religion.
The critical question is what to do with things we have no physical evidence of, things which we have no data of, are uncertain of. Things that science has not reached a verdict on. Religions typically have loads of these. The existence of god/gods for example. Having such a belief does not contradict the available science at the time, so we can have a scientist who believes in gods carrying on his research cheerfully. Atheists don't believe in gods unless there is physical proof. That also does not contradict doing some scientific research. The issue comes when you mistake "SCIENCE", the tool we use daily, with "science", the set of propositions, heuristics, conjectures and half-baked theories that will always exist at the frontiers of research. That effectively means you choose to place your trust in the set of current researchers and if they get it wrong, you get it wrong.
In short, science is not and has never been the whole of objective reality. This assigns mythical powers to scientists, which some would certainly call a "religion".
"May be you have some particular religion in mind, but many beliefs coexist happily with science.
There is a domain where atheists and many religious people agree on."
Totally! Perfectly faithful Christians can be Evolutionary Biologists without falling victim to fundamentalist anti-science idiocy.
"The critical question is what to do with things we have no physical evidence of, things which we have no data of, are uncertain of. Things that science has not reached a verdict on. Religions typically have loads of these. The existence of god/gods for example."
That's the realm of social science, not hard science, seeing as there is always going to be zero physical evidence of "God"/gods.
"In short, science is not and has never been the whole of objective reality. This assigns mythical powers to scientists, which some would certainly call a "religion"."
Again, "Science" is reality. Scientists do not have mythical powers. They are human. They are however the best we have to understand objective reality, through our feeble and failing minds. We do quite a good job, and conflating priests with scientists shows how little persons understand what facts and objective evidence versus subjectivity, belief, and perspective. Priests are "infallible". Science is not. And that is a very good thing.
Totally! Perfectly faithful Christians can be Evolutionary Biologists without falling victim to fundamentalist anti-science idiocy.
"The critical question is what to do with things we have no physical evidence of, things which we have no data of, are uncertain of. Things that science has not reached a verdict on. Religions typically have loads of these. The existence of god/gods for example."
That's the realm of social science, not hard science, seeing as there is always going to be zero physical evidence of "God"/gods.
"In short, science is not and has never been the whole of objective reality. This assigns mythical powers to scientists, which some would certainly call a "religion"."
Again, "Science" is reality. Scientists do not have mythical powers. They are human. They are however the best we have to understand objective reality, through our feeble and failing minds. We do quite a good job, and conflating priests with scientists shows how little persons understand what facts and objective evidence versus subjectivity, belief, and perspective. Priests are "infallible". Science is not. And that is a very good thing.
> Religion is the belief in an absence of evidence. Science is the whole of objective reality.
Both of these claims are 100% false.
Religion does have significant evidence; the problematic part of religion is in its interpretation of that evidence, rather than the evidence itself. This ranges from the metaphysical "X exists, therefore God" to the specific incidences of revival tents and miracle workers. This is evidence. Just because you have a different interpretation does not automatically invalidate theirs.
Science is a fucking method, not some "whole". There is and possibly always will be parts of reality that we do not know. We cannot stand outside reality, by definition, and we will always have non-objective biases coloring our perspective. Pretending to be objective is self-delusion. Trying to be objective is worthy and good, but recognize that you can't be.
Both of these claims are 100% false.
Religion does have significant evidence; the problematic part of religion is in its interpretation of that evidence, rather than the evidence itself. This ranges from the metaphysical "X exists, therefore God" to the specific incidences of revival tents and miracle workers. This is evidence. Just because you have a different interpretation does not automatically invalidate theirs.
Science is a fucking method, not some "whole". There is and possibly always will be parts of reality that we do not know. We cannot stand outside reality, by definition, and we will always have non-objective biases coloring our perspective. Pretending to be objective is self-delusion. Trying to be objective is worthy and good, but recognize that you can't be.
"Religion does have significant evidence"
Faith does not have empirical evidence. It has philosophical arguments backing it. Religion would cease becoming supernatural otherwise. There's a reason why theology is a soft social science and not a physical science (no matter what the Discovery Institute may tell you.)
"Science is a fucking method, not some "whole". "
Science is both a reflection of our current understanding of reality and the method of how we refine our understanding of it.
"Pretending to be objective is self-delusion" We are not objective creatures there is a vast difference between nature and those who ~practice~ science.
Faith does not have empirical evidence. It has philosophical arguments backing it. Religion would cease becoming supernatural otherwise. There's a reason why theology is a soft social science and not a physical science (no matter what the Discovery Institute may tell you.)
"Science is a fucking method, not some "whole". "
Science is both a reflection of our current understanding of reality and the method of how we refine our understanding of it.
"Pretending to be objective is self-delusion" We are not objective creatures there is a vast difference between nature and those who ~practice~ science.
I'm just going to note that you're claiming that theology is a science and say that you're wrong.
Here's a write-up on the problematic nature of the methodology you use:
http://www.wideopenground.com/fundamentalism-and-foundationa...
Here's a write-up on the problematic nature of the methodology you use:
http://www.wideopenground.com/fundamentalism-and-foundationa...
> No one on earth worships "SCIENCE".
The problem with ifls and equivalents is that that is actually what they are encouraging. They misrepresent "science" completely.
The problem with ifls and equivalents is that that is actually what they are encouraging. They misrepresent "science" completely.
Eh, they're dumb cheerleaders (no offense to smart cheerleaders intended.) They're meme consumers, and looking to be entertained and awed, regardless of the veracity of the source material. I agree, even if I find it unnecessary to portray it as "worship".
What if you are conditioned to believe and cheer replacing the facts you believed in with new ones that have no evidence against them and many clues for them?
Can reason an scientific method itself be an Idol? And if you do not cherish those things do you think it's better since you are truly not a believer in anything? Even the method that verifiebly gives humanity models of predictive utility that gave us almost all we enjoy today?
Can reason an scientific method itself be an Idol? And if you do not cherish those things do you think it's better since you are truly not a believer in anything? Even the method that verifiebly gives humanity models of predictive utility that gave us almost all we enjoy today?
I think you misunderstood parent. He didn't imply atheism is a religion but that atheists who behaves like religous/zealots are as dangerous as their couter-parts on the religious side.
I can understand the dig on zealotry, but the direct comparisons to "atheism as a religion" remain a pretty good sign that someone doesn't really understand what either term means. It's as unfair to religion as it is to those who lack belief in any God(s).
I disagree.
I think the comparison is valid. Some hardline atheists can be as vindicative, presumptuous and arrogant as religious people and that attitude is a problem (
Parent isn't implying atheism is a religion by the layman definition (sthg along the lines of'a belief in sthg unprovable') but that its proponents behave like they were a part of sthg that looks like a religion.
I think the comparison is valid. Some hardline atheists can be as vindicative, presumptuous and arrogant as religious people and that attitude is a problem (
Parent isn't implying atheism is a religion by the layman definition (sthg along the lines of'a belief in sthg unprovable') but that its proponents behave like they were a part of sthg that looks like a religion.
"Some hardline atheists can be as vindicative, presumptuous and arrogant as religious people and that attitude is a problem"
Atheists can be assholes? Why does that even need to be said? Atheists are people and run the same set of qualities that any human can possess.
"Parent isn't implying atheism is a religion by the layman definition (sthg along the lines of'a belief in sthg unprovable') but that its proponents behave like they were a part of sthg that looks like a religion."
Religion or lack thereof has nothing to do with being an asshole. Software "zealots" promote their fanatical opinions but they don't worship "software".
It's a crappy analogy when "asshole" would suffice.
Atheists can be assholes? Why does that even need to be said? Atheists are people and run the same set of qualities that any human can possess.
"Parent isn't implying atheism is a religion by the layman definition (sthg along the lines of'a belief in sthg unprovable') but that its proponents behave like they were a part of sthg that looks like a religion."
Religion or lack thereof has nothing to do with being an asshole. Software "zealots" promote their fanatical opinions but they don't worship "software".
It's a crappy analogy when "asshole" would suffice.
> Software "zealots" promote their fanatical opinions but they don't worship "software".
Indeed. But software zealots exhibit the same behavioral properties as normal zealots. "Normal zealots" is understood to be "religious zealots", because those behavioral properties are derived primarily from analyses of religious behavior.
Worship, at the end of the day, has absolutely nothing to do with anything.
Indeed. But software zealots exhibit the same behavioral properties as normal zealots. "Normal zealots" is understood to be "religious zealots", because those behavioral properties are derived primarily from analyses of religious behavior.
Worship, at the end of the day, has absolutely nothing to do with anything.
FYI, I wrote a thing up there ^ about how you don't understand what either term means.
And your response indicates that you seem to not understand what the burden for "evidence" for faith is.
>this is a good and powerful thing.
... until they have a gross misunderstanding of an issue relevant to public policy and spread that misunderstanding to others.
There is no "good ignorance".
... until they have a gross misunderstanding of an issue relevant to public policy and spread that misunderstanding to others.
There is no "good ignorance".
>There is no "good ignorance".
This can't be stated enough; (the following is anecdotal) the amount of blatantly incorrect information being spread through the use of what I dub 'feel good infographics' across the internet is astonishing. The viewer looks at something, feels good about what they've read and then shares it because it passed their own personal sentiment analysis.
It's kind of frightening because it sets the stage for all sorts of astroturfing and conditioning to spread; if anything we should look at the Boston Bomber/Reddit incident as evidence of this feel good propaganda. People were so eager to attach to the notion that they had 'caught the bastard' only for the truth to come out later that they had completely fingered the wrong guy.
This can't be stated enough; (the following is anecdotal) the amount of blatantly incorrect information being spread through the use of what I dub 'feel good infographics' across the internet is astonishing. The viewer looks at something, feels good about what they've read and then shares it because it passed their own personal sentiment analysis.
It's kind of frightening because it sets the stage for all sorts of astroturfing and conditioning to spread; if anything we should look at the Boston Bomber/Reddit incident as evidence of this feel good propaganda. People were so eager to attach to the notion that they had 'caught the bastard' only for the truth to come out later that they had completely fingered the wrong guy.
We're all ignorant of the vast majority of facts relevant to almost anything. Comprehension is expensive and scarce. That being the case, simple extensions of good faith count for a lot.
Ignorance is fine -- it is an unfortunate fact that nobody can learn it all. But to think that one is "engaging" in science -- I suppose most fans of the Page think they're somehow engaging in it (anecdotal) -- is, well, wrong.
As much as I'd like it to be true, looking at a bunch of .gifs about quantum mechanics and astrophysics plastered with white majuscules does little for one's understanding of science. In other words, IFLS is to the scientific community as r/atheism is to the religious-sceptics community (not the best analogy...).
As much as I'd like it to be true, looking at a bunch of .gifs about quantum mechanics and astrophysics plastered with white majuscules does little for one's understanding of science. In other words, IFLS is to the scientific community as r/atheism is to the religious-sceptics community (not the best analogy...).
The problem here is willful ignorance, what a person does when confronted by fact. There's probably a lot of antivaxers new-age woo believers and homeopaths who enjoy the fashionable "quantum" quips but have zero interest in doing anything but republishing the images. They ape the language, but don't understand the mindset.
These aren't simple extensions of good faith though - that would be more like wearing a pin "I believe in science!", which is a-ok.
The problem arises when people share untrue information out of the notion that they're spreading science. Comprehension is indeed expensive and scarce, which means recognizing the borders of your own knowledge and the start of your own ignorance is extremely important. Pseudoscientific drivel has no place anywhere.
The problem arises when people share untrue information out of the notion that they're spreading science. Comprehension is indeed expensive and scarce, which means recognizing the borders of your own knowledge and the start of your own ignorance is extremely important. Pseudoscientific drivel has no place anywhere.
It reminds me of the criticisms of Mythbusters. They do bad science a lot of the time, with shoddy understandings of underlying mechanisms. It's fair to criticise them as bad science for this. But on the other hand, they very much promote the idea of "think of something, suggest what might happen if you do it, then do it and see what you find (, and then publish it)". So while they may not do good science themselves, they do promote the fundamental ideals of science, and are open to having their suggestions found wrong.
Whereas the facebook page does nothing like this at all - it's just funny pictures with a theme. It doesn't encourage any way of thinking or promote figuring out the world.
Whereas the facebook page does nothing like this at all - it's just funny pictures with a theme. It doesn't encourage any way of thinking or promote figuring out the world.
Your point was very nicely expressed in this xkcd:
http://xkcd.com/397/.
I agree. It seems like supporting science through ignorance is missing the point.
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"I think we should relax about the idea that most people post inaccurate facts when they're cheering science.
What they're doing is cheering for the idea of science."
This is how What the Bleep, Dr. Oz, and all manner of pseudoscience subverts actual science.
Fairweather friends like that make it more difficult because they're repeating a meme or sort of cargo cult understanding of how reality works.
This is how What the Bleep, Dr. Oz, and all manner of pseudoscience subverts actual science.
Fairweather friends like that make it more difficult because they're repeating a meme or sort of cargo cult understanding of how reality works.
I think we should relax about the idea that most people post inaccurate facts when they're cheering science.
Seems to me that a lot of the point of 'cheering science' is lost when you're posting inaccurate facts.
Can you even call it science any more?
Seems to me that a lot of the point of 'cheering science' is lost when you're posting inaccurate facts.
Can you even call it science any more?
I think the problem is within the supposed science field sudo science is getting more traction.
People who have done science degrees are coming out and still believing in forms of magic like organic, chiropractics, chemical free, anthropomorphizing animals etc.
It's a fine line, should we appease the masses and try and get more scientists or try and at least get the supposed scientists practising and believing in actual science.
People who have done science degrees are coming out and still believing in forms of magic like organic, chiropractics, chemical free, anthropomorphizing animals etc.
It's a fine line, should we appease the masses and try and get more scientists or try and at least get the supposed scientists practising and believing in actual science.
[deleted]
Oh, do the cheerleader mine the data of the audience, and use it to create spam?
If the cheerleaders were sleeping with the fans and spreading venereal disease your analogy would be nearly perfect.
If the cheerleaders were sleeping with the fans and spreading venereal disease your analogy would be nearly perfect.
I second this, and generally, the entire page. While calling the way Maddox writes as "extremely offensive" would actually be a very nice thing to say, he usually does have a lot of really good points.
Personal favourite: http://thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=math.
Personal favourite: http://thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=math.
IFLS is to science as lol-cats is to feline veterinary medicine.
I think it's very true and flattering.
Lol-cats among other things teach public why veterinary medicine is worth the fuss. It's because cats are so cute!
Lol-cats among other things teach public why veterinary medicine is worth the fuss. It's because cats are so cute!
In hindsight, I shouldn't have been so surprised to hear of groups farming likes for profit...
Are there any good articles that talk about this practice? Seems like that could be interesting...
Are there any good articles that talk about this practice? Seems like that could be interesting...
Not sure if this is exactly what you're talking about, but it's a good read nonetheless - For just $68, the author was able to create a 100% fake Twitter celebrity (a tech and social media guru) with tens of thousands of followers and a "verified account" checkmark, as well as his own Wikipedia page, personal website, etc.
http://qz.com/74937/how-to-become-internet-famous-without-ev...
http://qz.com/74937/how-to-become-internet-famous-without-ev...
This image[1] pretty much sums up why I can't stand pages/websites/blogs like i fucking love science.
[1] - http://i.imgur.com/OAGFxOJ.jpg
[1] - http://i.imgur.com/OAGFxOJ.jpg
What do you exactly disagree with? On first blush, that seems mostly agreeable--mostly.
Is it the tone that gets to you, the underlying message, or the overly idealistic picture it paints?
Is it the tone that gets to you, the underlying message, or the overly idealistic picture it paints?
Samething they did to:
https://www.facebook.com/scumbrain
https://www.facebook.com/scumbrain
I run a popular fan page on Facebook, and if I know who the artist/author is, I will credit them. If I don't know who they are I say "artist: ?" and someone will always send a message to let me know who the artist/author is.
I too, sell t-shirts (through TeeSpring) and my latest experiment was quite successful - I found some designs on another t-shirt site that I quite liked the look of, emailed the artist and said I'd pay them $1.50 for every t-shirt I sold. They agreed, and sent me the images. I sold heaps, the artist made extra money and my fans were happy.
I too, sell t-shirts (through TeeSpring) and my latest experiment was quite successful - I found some designs on another t-shirt site that I quite liked the look of, emailed the artist and said I'd pay them $1.50 for every t-shirt I sold. They agreed, and sent me the images. I sold heaps, the artist made extra money and my fans were happy.
The bottom line is this:
1. Elise Andrew is making money off IFLS. (Whether or not she's giving it out to charities is non-relevant.)
2. IFLS' success rests largely on the high quality content created by artists, scientists, photographers
3. A small part of IFLS' success rests on Andrews' eye for picking out good/funny/clever quotes/cartoons/photographs/artwork
Given (1) and (2), I'd say not only is IFLS largely indebted to the artist/photographer/science community at large, but not attributing work is an incredibly selfish thing to do. Whether she didn't attribute the work out of laziness, negligence or malice is non-relevant. My only point is that IFLS is a very good target for the blog post.
If someone stole my code and used it without attribution and to make money off of it, I would be pissed. If someone that's received the major media attention IFLS has stole my code and used it without attribution to make money, I'd be even more pissed.
Also note that artwork can have varying licenses, as well - similar to MIT, GPL, etc. licenses we see in source code. Some licenses preclude all non-endorsed distribution. She's had a ton of media coverage in the past 6 months (especially after the whole Twitter thing), so the "small corner of the internet" argument won't fly.
Neither will the "Reddit/9gag/etc. does it" argument. Reddit, for example, is a mass-user-driven aggregate. Reddit can't possibly police all posts and ensure that attribution is given. Conversely, the IFLS page is not an aggregate. Andrews picks the images very carefully and in a conscious manner; in the latter case, there is clearly room for attribution.
However, I think that IFLS has garnered the same type of militant defenders as /r/atheism/ or fans of Carl Sagan (or, more recently, NDGT). Ironically, this type of blind following is exactly what the aforementioned groups are trying to dissolve. Andrews screwed up. Badly. This is not a rookie mistake; it's something she could get sued for. Lets leave it at that.. enough with the apologists.
Edit: I would just like to re-iterate that the burden does NOT lie on the artists to scour the internet looking for mis-attributed pieces of artwork. But rather, on the distributor of the work. Just about every judge in existence would agree with this.
1. Elise Andrew is making money off IFLS. (Whether or not she's giving it out to charities is non-relevant.)
2. IFLS' success rests largely on the high quality content created by artists, scientists, photographers
3. A small part of IFLS' success rests on Andrews' eye for picking out good/funny/clever quotes/cartoons/photographs/artwork
Given (1) and (2), I'd say not only is IFLS largely indebted to the artist/photographer/science community at large, but not attributing work is an incredibly selfish thing to do. Whether she didn't attribute the work out of laziness, negligence or malice is non-relevant. My only point is that IFLS is a very good target for the blog post.
If someone stole my code and used it without attribution and to make money off of it, I would be pissed. If someone that's received the major media attention IFLS has stole my code and used it without attribution to make money, I'd be even more pissed.
Also note that artwork can have varying licenses, as well - similar to MIT, GPL, etc. licenses we see in source code. Some licenses preclude all non-endorsed distribution. She's had a ton of media coverage in the past 6 months (especially after the whole Twitter thing), so the "small corner of the internet" argument won't fly.
Neither will the "Reddit/9gag/etc. does it" argument. Reddit, for example, is a mass-user-driven aggregate. Reddit can't possibly police all posts and ensure that attribution is given. Conversely, the IFLS page is not an aggregate. Andrews picks the images very carefully and in a conscious manner; in the latter case, there is clearly room for attribution.
However, I think that IFLS has garnered the same type of militant defenders as /r/atheism/ or fans of Carl Sagan (or, more recently, NDGT). Ironically, this type of blind following is exactly what the aforementioned groups are trying to dissolve. Andrews screwed up. Badly. This is not a rookie mistake; it's something she could get sued for. Lets leave it at that.. enough with the apologists.
Edit: I would just like to re-iterate that the burden does NOT lie on the artists to scour the internet looking for mis-attributed pieces of artwork. But rather, on the distributor of the work. Just about every judge in existence would agree with this.
> 3. A small part of IFLS' success rests on Andrews' eye for picking out good/funny/clever quotes/cartoons/photographs/artwork
This isn't hard, and can be automated... it's the 9gag model. Just view the cream of the crop that bubbles to the top of reddit and randomly pick out a few every day.
This isn't hard, and can be automated... it's the 9gag model. Just view the cream of the crop that bubbles to the top of reddit and randomly pick out a few every day.
Small part of Shakespeare was picking the right words and phrases and putting them in right order.
Small part of every DJ is picking the righ music to remix.
Small part of every DJ is picking the righ music to remix.
I'm sorry, are you seriously comparing Elise Andrew with Shakespeare?
"Picking the right words and phrases and putting them in the right order" is not even in the same plane of existence as "looking at a picture and deciding if it's remotely funny or interesting."
"Picking the right words and phrases and putting them in the right order" is not even in the same plane of existence as "looking at a picture and deciding if it's remotely funny or interesting."
Nope. Not seriously. I just feel that belittling her work on finding the right content is very wrong.
More serious analogy would be photography. How you do make good photos? Do you create them? No. You just make hundreds of photos (adhering to some technical limitations) and the you pick and crop the right ones from all the photos you made. That's what Bresson did.
Picking content is the creative part. The rest is just pointing the camera, turning the knobs and pushing the button.
On the internet artists create respective images. But she's also the artist who picks and crops creating her feed which many people apreciate the value of.
More serious analogy would be photography. How you do make good photos? Do you create them? No. You just make hundreds of photos (adhering to some technical limitations) and the you pick and crop the right ones from all the photos you made. That's what Bresson did.
Picking content is the creative part. The rest is just pointing the camera, turning the knobs and pushing the button.
On the internet artists create respective images. But she's also the artist who picks and crops creating her feed which many people apreciate the value of.
Bresson was a pioneer of the French New Wave. Again, the comparison is just completely off-base, I'm afraid. What Andrews is doing is just plain theft. (Especially given the fact that she's making money off of IFLS.)
I'm not comparing her to Bresson. I'm comparing her to a photographer. Bresson is just an example. My friend who photographs does exactly the same. I just invoked Bresson to show that even masters in the field do that. Also it's a keyword for google so you can see what his creative process consisted of.
You just completely missed my point that picking content and reframing it is valuable creative activity.
Theft would be to resell those images as stock photos.
Besides seems your broad definitions of theft would classify half on the internet as such. That's not a very pleasent view of the biggest cultural invention since printing press.
You just completely missed my point that picking content and reframing it is valuable creative activity.
Theft would be to resell those images as stock photos.
Besides seems your broad definitions of theft would classify half on the internet as such. That's not a very pleasent view of the biggest cultural invention since printing press.
If you truly believe that photography is nothing more than framing, then you have a very limited understanding of the medium. Given the same camera, same subject and same point of view (let's take a still life setup and a camera with a prime lens anchored firmly to a locked studio camera stand) I can make any number of completely different photographs that convey very different meanings and emotions. And that's before making any darkroom/post-processing decisions.
Yes you can intentionally take different photos of the same thing by varying lightning. You may even learn what type of lightning invokes what emotions in your viewers. I'm just saying thats not how photography is usually done. You set up the set, the lightning and the camera to the best of your knowledge but you don't take one picture. You take loads of them varying your setup slightly and then you pick the right ones. Of course photography is very varied field and there are guys who get their highs from taking one picture with shoebox but they are not that common among photographers.
But she didn't have to pick anything. As I mentioned higher up, it's just picked off the top science subreddits and could be automated.
Everything she posts has already been proven to be interesting to anyone interested in science.
Everything she posts has already been proven to be interesting to anyone interested in science.
ICanHasCheezburger must be the most advanced form of "art" to have ever graced the planet, then.
I don't know if it's necessarily fair to call out "I F*cking Love Science". The same could be said about Reddit/9gag/thousands of other Facebook groups/etc.
It's an Internet-wide problem, not just one FB group.
It's an Internet-wide problem, not just one FB group.
A fellow robs my house. I catch him and hold him for the police. He complains, "No fair! Most robberies are unsolved because we lack the manpower to chase every lead!!"
Lie is indeed "unfair" to him in some statistical sense, but I am absolutely not being "unfair" to him in a moral sense.
Or to put it another way, the reality of the Internet as you describe it is that a certain %age of copyright violations go unpurusued. It's a statistical model, just as it's a statistical model that a certain number of robberies are unsolved and a certain number of people are killed by lightening.
Is that unfair? It may seem so when you're being struck by lightening, but someone has to be struck by lightening.
Likewise, given enough copyright violations, someone is going to be called out. Today the blow falls on Elise.
Lie is indeed "unfair" to him in some statistical sense, but I am absolutely not being "unfair" to him in a moral sense.
Or to put it another way, the reality of the Internet as you describe it is that a certain %age of copyright violations go unpurusued. It's a statistical model, just as it's a statistical model that a certain number of robberies are unsolved and a certain number of people are killed by lightening.
Is that unfair? It may seem so when you're being struck by lightening, but someone has to be struck by lightening.
Likewise, given enough copyright violations, someone is going to be called out. Today the blow falls on Elise.
Your analogy to reposting is a robbery? Really?
Mine is, telling your friends a joke without bothering to establish who originally invented it.
Mine is, telling your friends a joke without bothering to establish who originally invented it.
It's not like many of the original artists want a payout. They just want attribution.
These things usually have passed around the internet several times before it gets to the meme aggregators, I wish there was a better solution than watermarking. Tineye/GIS would theoretically work, but it'd find every instance where the meme was passed around, not its origin!
Do you have a suggesting for finding each "owner"?
Such requirements would shut down all these sites (not that we'd have a huge loss by doing so, but I'd like to think that a social/technological solution would be possible.)
Do you have a suggesting for finding each "owner"?
Such requirements would shut down all these sites (not that we'd have a huge loss by doing so, but I'd like to think that a social/technological solution would be possible.)
The problem is that because you can be rightfully extorted by original author you have little incentive to keep and acknowledge attribution. It's better to pretend that given image came from the cloud.
That's how copyright enforcers again make it worse for all creative people.
That's how copyright enforcers again make it worse for all creative people.
I'd say the truth is somewhere in between. Closer to a comedian using another comedian's joke.
Is that because even though the show is free performer gets 2% of the popcorn viewers choose to buy?
Original authors of the jokes either don't earn any money with them or do it similar way that the "joke thief" does. Only they are not that popular as he is.
I think reposting is much less of an offence then one proffessional comediant using joke of another one without proper attribution.
Original authors of the jokes either don't earn any money with them or do it similar way that the "joke thief" does. Only they are not that popular as he is.
I think reposting is much less of an offence then one proffessional comediant using joke of another one without proper attribution.
"Stealing" jokes is very much frowned upon, but at least in performing arts, much relies on delivery. The same is not true for static arts, where poor attribution ranges from forgery to plagiarism.
IFLS delivery is unique for this content.
That's true, but it's not as significant a difference as interpretative art. The original still dominates.
Good point, though. Delivery of embedded content is often ignored.
Good point, though. Delivery of embedded content is often ignored.
On top of what raganwald said, the difference between IFLS and Reddit is that this is a curated stream done by one person, rather than an aggregation of user-generated content.
Reddit is morally different, since arguably you cannot hold them directly responsible for content generated by their users, they are strictly a conduit.
Similarly, we don't blame Facebook when their users post pirated content, we rightly blame the individual who pirated it in the first place.
You're right though, this isn't different than a curated stream of pirated content (e.g., many other Facebook groups), but as raganwald said, the fact that we can't catch them all doesn't mean it's wrong to catch one.
Reddit is morally different, since arguably you cannot hold them directly responsible for content generated by their users, they are strictly a conduit.
Similarly, we don't blame Facebook when their users post pirated content, we rightly blame the individual who pirated it in the first place.
You're right though, this isn't different than a curated stream of pirated content (e.g., many other Facebook groups), but as raganwald said, the fact that we can't catch them all doesn't mean it's wrong to catch one.
If you want to do something good on the internet you have to do this as Satoshi Nakamoto or John Smith because no good deed goes unpunished.
Jacking everybody else's internet subculture for your mainstream, bland and toned down for-profit site is nothing new. I remember ebaumsworld stamping everything on earth with their logo that they didn't create, same with I Can Haz Cheeseburger? blatently ripping off all the caturday user content uploaded to 4chan.
If it exist on the internet and is hilarious somebody will steal it and milk it to the masses for money.
If it exist on the internet and is hilarious somebody will steal it and milk it to the masses for money.
Would've been great if the author had contacted Elise to discuss the article.
Of course content should be used legally, but IFLS has grown so quickly that I think it's fair to defend Elise as having made an honest mistake, or simply not considering the issue until now.
Instead, Alex comes off as overly bitter, utterly failing to advance the cause of a "mutually beneficial relationship". Presumably in the pursuit of blog impressions.
Of course content should be used legally, but IFLS has grown so quickly that I think it's fair to defend Elise as having made an honest mistake, or simply not considering the issue until now.
Instead, Alex comes off as overly bitter, utterly failing to advance the cause of a "mutually beneficial relationship". Presumably in the pursuit of blog impressions.
Yes, terrible not contacting someone about something posted on the internet...
What would that achieve? It was an analysis of her post history
Here's a slightly different question.
If I've posted a picture to my personal timeline, can someone post that picture on their own Facebook pages without giving me credit? Can they even modify the picture (add a slogan or whatever) and do the same? I think the Facebook TOS allows both of these:
https://www.facebook.com/legal/terms
Is that how you read it?
If I've posted a picture to my personal timeline, can someone post that picture on their own Facebook pages without giving me credit? Can they even modify the picture (add a slogan or whatever) and do the same? I think the Facebook TOS allows both of these:
https://www.facebook.com/legal/terms
Is that how you read it?
It is indeed the case. The sharing mechanism depends on cascading assignment of license of publication rights, and the thumbnailing/cropping for timeline/feed entries requires rights to create derivative works (which, unfortunately, has the side-effect of permitting almost any sort of derivative work that wouldn't be covered by libel). Although you still retain copyright (and can separately license works outside of Facebook under other terms), you are granting extremely broad and transferable rights (the "friends" chain can get to be pretty long once sharing is allowed) to a work by posting it to Facebook. If you don't want to relinquish control of a work, don't post it on FB. Never post images of value in a valuable size, and watermark the hell out of anything that is low-res and commercial.
Would this be a situation where the artist could justify filing a DMCA notice?
In theory, yeah.
It's never occured to me to wonder about how you file a DMCA notice against facebook though, or if that's something that happens and how effective it is for the filer.
Is this something that one can do on facebook? Facebook appears to say yes: http://www.facebook.com/help/190268144407210/
But it would be interesting to hear from someone with personal experience, on either end of a DMCA takedown notice on facebook.
It's never occured to me to wonder about how you file a DMCA notice against facebook though, or if that's something that happens and how effective it is for the filer.
Is this something that one can do on facebook? Facebook appears to say yes: http://www.facebook.com/help/190268144407210/
But it would be interesting to hear from someone with personal experience, on either end of a DMCA takedown notice on facebook.
I feel like it's a little bit unfair to Facebook Inc. to have their name as the first word of the title since a glance at the title makes it seems as if Facebook yet again overstepped their boundaries (though it speaks volumes to FB's past behavior that I have that reaction right away)
Facebook has the power to take down posts. They take down pictures of breast feeding mothers. I would think it is no more difficult to take down copyrighted works. Google image search finds duplicates quite well. FB should do something similar.
I'm confused by the implication that running an image without permission but with credit is legal, but without permission but without credit is illegal. Copyright, in the US anyway, so far as I know has no such relationship to whether proper attribution/credit is given.
(If the given work was publicly licensed CC-BY, that's another story. Then you HAVE permission, under that license only if you credit. But that's something the CC-BY license does, not some built-in part of copyright law).
It's certainly _good manners_ regardless of the law. But, while you may or may not be illegally 'pirating' an image to use it in a facebook post without permission, whether or not you give proper attribution is unlikely to be determining factor of whether you are or not.
(If the given work was publicly licensed CC-BY, that's another story. Then you HAVE permission, under that license only if you credit. But that's something the CC-BY license does, not some built-in part of copyright law).
It's certainly _good manners_ regardless of the law. But, while you may or may not be illegally 'pirating' an image to use it in a facebook post without permission, whether or not you give proper attribution is unlikely to be determining factor of whether you are or not.
I 100% agree that IFLS should be crediting the artists who make great work and direct traffic to IFLS's page. What I am having trouble understanding is why the general thrust of comments on this page seems to be "This is UNACCEPTABLE!!" when (and please correct me if I'm wrong) the general thrust of comments on pages about, e.g., The Pirate Bay seems to be "There's absolutely nothing wrong with The Pirate Bay!" Aren't both of these sites making money by hawking stolen wares? Why is The Pirate Bay so fiercely defended and IFLS so roundly condemned?
IFLS is not a government target. It's loved by every one. So haters gonna hate.
In addition to the main point of this article, it's interesting to see that people are building a career out of Facebook pages in a similar way to we saw with prominent Youtubers taking off.
Yes, I agree. But why call out something like this page? Surely there are more successful and profitable content farms.
Not justifying the behavior, just saying that this example is the 'little guy'.
Not justifying the behavior, just saying that this example is the 'little guy'.
Considering she's working on a TV deal, I bet not many. Plus it doesn't matter who is larger, wrong is wrong.
Except it's not wrong. Unless you'd like to shut down half of the internet because it's wrong until it streightens up.
"Most popular science page on Facebook", if true in any meaningful sense, does not describe a "little guy", or gal in this case.
"After finding one of my photographs posted to IFLS yesterday without permission, I surveyed the most recent 100 images in the IFLS stream and tallied the percentage of images that were credited[...]”
From the article, emphasis mine.
From the article, emphasis mine.
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They are just a "Like" farm. They use their tracking of likes to mine relationships so you can get personalized spam that appears that it came from your friends.