How We Treat Pets in America(blog.priceonomics.com)
blog.priceonomics.com
How We Treat Pets in America
http://blog.priceonomics.com/post/44230885813/how-we-treat-pets-in-america
13 comments
> There is almost no reason to "buy" a dog
I agree, if we're talking about puppies. There's no reason to buy a puppy. But an adult dog? I adopted an adult dog from a shelter, and I will never do so again.
I realize that the rescue community does its best with the animals, but as an owner of a shelter dog, I really wish somebody had explained to me that the dog you see in the shelter might not actually be the same dog once you take her home. In the course of a few weeks after I adopted her, my laid back, amiable companion had turned into a hyperactive, sometimes-fearful, sometimes-aggressive terror.
My point is that with an adult rescue dog, you are not getting only a dog. You are getting a dog and all of its history. For instance, my dog has a deep fear of manhole covers, tall grass, and a dozen other things. I have no idea why she's afraid, and I never will, because I wasn't there when whatever triggered that fear happened. She's also absolutely terrified of firearms. If I even touch a firearm around her (I've never discharged one around her), she runs away whimpering. I have to preemptively crate her on range days, just to get my guns to the car.
I've been working with her for 2 years, and she's slowly gotten better with some things, but even now she's still afraid of a lot of the same things. And there is absolutely no way I can trust her around children. When my fiance and I get married and want to start having kids, I don't know what will become of her.
All of this to say, I completely understand peoples' hesitancy to adopt an adult dog from a shelter. You can't be sure what you're getting, and while neither can you be sure of what you're getting (in terms of temperament) when you adopt a puppy, at least with a puppy you know that no other messed up human has done bad things to your dog.
Edit: to clarify that I haven't shot my dog...
I agree, if we're talking about puppies. There's no reason to buy a puppy. But an adult dog? I adopted an adult dog from a shelter, and I will never do so again.
I realize that the rescue community does its best with the animals, but as an owner of a shelter dog, I really wish somebody had explained to me that the dog you see in the shelter might not actually be the same dog once you take her home. In the course of a few weeks after I adopted her, my laid back, amiable companion had turned into a hyperactive, sometimes-fearful, sometimes-aggressive terror.
My point is that with an adult rescue dog, you are not getting only a dog. You are getting a dog and all of its history. For instance, my dog has a deep fear of manhole covers, tall grass, and a dozen other things. I have no idea why she's afraid, and I never will, because I wasn't there when whatever triggered that fear happened. She's also absolutely terrified of firearms. If I even touch a firearm around her (I've never discharged one around her), she runs away whimpering. I have to preemptively crate her on range days, just to get my guns to the car.
I've been working with her for 2 years, and she's slowly gotten better with some things, but even now she's still afraid of a lot of the same things. And there is absolutely no way I can trust her around children. When my fiance and I get married and want to start having kids, I don't know what will become of her.
All of this to say, I completely understand peoples' hesitancy to adopt an adult dog from a shelter. You can't be sure what you're getting, and while neither can you be sure of what you're getting (in terms of temperament) when you adopt a puppy, at least with a puppy you know that no other messed up human has done bad things to your dog.
Edit: to clarify that I haven't shot my dog...
Right: we "rescued" a lab who has been great, but had a lot of anxiety built up over being simply being left alone. People coming by the door eventually led to him destroying the front entryway.
The result: we started anxiety training, which has been effective. And a lot of work. Plus, not all dog trainers do this sort of thing, so it's a little pricier than most dog training. And, we as owners also needed some education on how to work with the dog. Considering that both me and my girlfriend grew up with animals (my dad is a vet, we always had animals), I would consider this point important; anxiety cases are not easy and not obvious for most pet owners to just figure out.
While puppies do require attention, they are a lot easier to learn to handle than an anxiety case. Anyone adopting an adult pet should be aware of the potential training costs, with medication, can extend well above $1000 USD. (And if the dog decides to destroy your furniture, well, there's that, too.)
I know I will think twice before adopting an adult dog in the future.
The result: we started anxiety training, which has been effective. And a lot of work. Plus, not all dog trainers do this sort of thing, so it's a little pricier than most dog training. And, we as owners also needed some education on how to work with the dog. Considering that both me and my girlfriend grew up with animals (my dad is a vet, we always had animals), I would consider this point important; anxiety cases are not easy and not obvious for most pet owners to just figure out.
While puppies do require attention, they are a lot easier to learn to handle than an anxiety case. Anyone adopting an adult pet should be aware of the potential training costs, with medication, can extend well above $1000 USD. (And if the dog decides to destroy your furniture, well, there's that, too.)
I know I will think twice before adopting an adult dog in the future.
I had a very similar experience. I got a rescue that was an adolescent (not fully grown) and just the sweetest dog ever. We did all the kinds of socializing that you're supposed to do but as he got older he became more and more aggressive towards anyone that didn't live in the house.
It got to the point where we'd have to lock him up in a room when people came over because we were genuinely afraid that he would seriously injure a visiting friend or family member. We tried all kinds of trainers but nothing at all helped and we finally decided to put him down because it felt like he was a bomb that was just waiting to go off.
It was all the more depressing because when there were no strangers around he was a total sweetheart. He loved snuggling up with his humans and playing with our other dog.
The experience was so negative that I don't think I'd ever take in a shelter dog again. I paid a good breeder for a purebred after him (my breed choice of Whippet partially inspired by the positive behaviors of my shelter dog) and I've been very happy.
It got to the point where we'd have to lock him up in a room when people came over because we were genuinely afraid that he would seriously injure a visiting friend or family member. We tried all kinds of trainers but nothing at all helped and we finally decided to put him down because it felt like he was a bomb that was just waiting to go off.
It was all the more depressing because when there were no strangers around he was a total sweetheart. He loved snuggling up with his humans and playing with our other dog.
The experience was so negative that I don't think I'd ever take in a shelter dog again. I paid a good breeder for a purebred after him (my breed choice of Whippet partially inspired by the positive behaviors of my shelter dog) and I've been very happy.
Shelters in Massachusetts are very picky about who they adopt out to. My wife and I looked for a younger large breed dog for nearly a year, and were turned away at every local shelter because our yard wasn't fenced and we both worked full time. A few years earlier, living in an apartment disqualified us from adopting a cat in Massachusetts. We drove 3 hours to adopt a cat from New York, and 2 hours to buy a dog in New Hampshire.
Looking at petfinder for my area, the only dogs in shelters nearby are "imported" from Puerto Rico, and even those only go to homes that are worthy. I'm saddened by the conditions in shelters in other parts of the country, but I'm not going to fly to Alabama to find a dog.
Looking at petfinder for my area, the only dogs in shelters nearby are "imported" from Puerto Rico, and even those only go to homes that are worthy. I'm saddened by the conditions in shelters in other parts of the country, but I'm not going to fly to Alabama to find a dog.
> and were turned away at every local shelter because
> our yard wasn't fenced and we both worked full time.
Having owned a lab without a fenced yard and a working spouse, I'd say this is probably a good policy.
Having owned a lab without a fenced yard and a working spouse, I'd say this is probably a good policy.
The Wisconsin Humane Society actually assesses their animals and assigns them a color based on personality and temperament so you can find what you're looking for in a pet. I have to imagine lots of other shelters do this also.
Yup, ours has you take a short quiz that matches you with a "color" representing a type of dog. We'd assign new dogs one of these colors based off of about 10 criteria that we would evaluate over a 2-3 day waiting period before they were available for adoption; it really helped lower the return rate of the pups.
>> I can guarantee that you can find what you're looking for at a local shelter.
I'm not sure. Our local shelters are dominated by 2 breeds: pit bulls and chihuahuas. I would say it's over 75% of the dogs here. In fact, I heard our shelter was bringing in dogs/breeds from other cities because no one wants the dogs brought in locally.
Also, I have reservations (maybe unwarranted) about bringing a shelter dog into a home with small kids (I have 3 and one has already been bitten by a dog). I'd much rather start with a puppy (which, again, I don't see a lot of in our shelters other than the breeds mentioned above).
I'm not sure. Our local shelters are dominated by 2 breeds: pit bulls and chihuahuas. I would say it's over 75% of the dogs here. In fact, I heard our shelter was bringing in dogs/breeds from other cities because no one wants the dogs brought in locally.
Also, I have reservations (maybe unwarranted) about bringing a shelter dog into a home with small kids (I have 3 and one has already been bitten by a dog). I'd much rather start with a puppy (which, again, I don't see a lot of in our shelters other than the breeds mentioned above).
>There is not a common breed that doesn't find it's way through our doors at some point during the year.
This may very well be the case where you live, but it is not the case everywhere. In southern ontario for example, there are not many dogs at any of the shelters, and seeing anything other than lab and shepherd mixes is quite rare. If you are looking for a specific breed up here, you'll probably be looking forever.
This may very well be the case where you live, but it is not the case everywhere. In southern ontario for example, there are not many dogs at any of the shelters, and seeing anything other than lab and shepherd mixes is quite rare. If you are looking for a specific breed up here, you'll probably be looking forever.
Somewhat ironic to find this post two links above the one about lab rats getting tortured for "science". I guess rats are uglier.
I for one find this kind of cognitive dissonance extremely upsetting and a bit perplexing. People are easily able to compartmentalize their feelings about various animals. This leads to neat little groups - food, pet, science experiment. It's very frustrating to me.
>This leads to neat little groups
Not so neat. Some people eat dog and some have pet rats.
Not so neat. Some people eat dog and some have pet rats.
I didn't say they were universally accepted groups. Those people who have pet rats likely do not want rats being experimented on. And those people who eat dogs probably don't keep them as beloved pets.
If it's purely the compartmentalization that upsets you, then you'd be happier if people were totally cool about tossing the Frisbee around with their dog Spot on Saturday, then cooking him up for Sunday dinner. Is that the case?
Anyway, people are a mix of rationality and emotions. We build up emotional attachments to the animals we keep as pets, and get uneasy thinking about using them in meals or experiments.
Anyway, people are a mix of rationality and emotions. We build up emotional attachments to the animals we keep as pets, and get uneasy thinking about using them in meals or experiments.
I'd prefer some consistency. If people think it's horrific to eat a dog, there's no reason they should be perfectly cool eating a pig.
Worse, rats are at least as capable of training and intelligent behavior as dogs, making the differential treatment even harder to understand.
One significant difference though, is the rate at which rats breed and how much more of a negative load they can place on the environment (and humans) when released into the wild.
One significant difference though, is the rate at which rats breed and how much more of a negative load they can place on the environment (and humans) when released into the wild.
In this case, it might extend beyond rats being uglier. There is research supporting the idea that the human/dog relationship is a case of coevalution [1]
[1]http://theacademy.typepad.com/files/coevolution03.pdf
[1]http://theacademy.typepad.com/files/coevolution03.pdf
Very happy to see this on HN. I have never understood why people are willing to purchase dogs. Between the conditions of large-scale breeders and the amount of animals waiting in shelters, it's just absurd.
I know it goes against most people, but I bought a dog from a breeder. Basically just to see its parents and how it acted around its litter.
My wife and I adopted a Lab two years earlier from a humane society. When she went through puberty, she started acting "off". As in she'd be playing, stop, have no depth in her eyes, and bite you if you got near her. 40 seconds later she was fine and she didn't even know what happened. She even bit the last trainer when she had one of her "seizures." The rest of the time she did every trick and voice command perfectly. After we that, we decided we had to put her down. We spent probably $2000 on training in the year-ish we had her not including the hours calling universities and whatnot for advice.
After many hours of researching, we found out her dad "might have been" a German Shepherd used in dog fighting that had other issues. That dog was shot like a coyote because it kept on tormenting cattle. Would have been nice to know that ahead of time.
We didn't want to go through that again. So we paid the $800, drove 6 hours, saw our new dog get corrected by its father, and be genuinely rambunctious. Now when we go on vacation people argue for the rights to take care of him instead of saying no way.
It's amazing what knowing the family history can do to your stress levels.
My wife and I adopted a Lab two years earlier from a humane society. When she went through puberty, she started acting "off". As in she'd be playing, stop, have no depth in her eyes, and bite you if you got near her. 40 seconds later she was fine and she didn't even know what happened. She even bit the last trainer when she had one of her "seizures." The rest of the time she did every trick and voice command perfectly. After we that, we decided we had to put her down. We spent probably $2000 on training in the year-ish we had her not including the hours calling universities and whatnot for advice.
After many hours of researching, we found out her dad "might have been" a German Shepherd used in dog fighting that had other issues. That dog was shot like a coyote because it kept on tormenting cattle. Would have been nice to know that ahead of time.
We didn't want to go through that again. So we paid the $800, drove 6 hours, saw our new dog get corrected by its father, and be genuinely rambunctious. Now when we go on vacation people argue for the rights to take care of him instead of saying no way.
It's amazing what knowing the family history can do to your stress levels.
I agree with that too. Seeing the temperament of other dogs in the family can be a good indicator of how the puppy will (can?) turn out.
I've had four Brittany spaniels, two from early puppy stage, and two from adult stage. The two that I had from a puppy were wonderful dogs for me and my family. The two that were adopted as adults had acquired a variety of odd behaviors; one of them we were able to put up with, the other one was too destructive and eventually we had to relocate to a farm with more space than we had in the suburbs.
I now have an almost 2-year-old border collie that I first saw when she was 5 weeks old. Border collies in general have some particular tendencies that I'm still working on with her, but in general her temperament is very good.
For what it's worth, I did peruse the local shelter for a while before adopting a puppy from a farm.
I've had four Brittany spaniels, two from early puppy stage, and two from adult stage. The two that I had from a puppy were wonderful dogs for me and my family. The two that were adopted as adults had acquired a variety of odd behaviors; one of them we were able to put up with, the other one was too destructive and eventually we had to relocate to a farm with more space than we had in the suburbs.
I now have an almost 2-year-old border collie that I first saw when she was 5 weeks old. Border collies in general have some particular tendencies that I'm still working on with her, but in general her temperament is very good.
For what it's worth, I did peruse the local shelter for a while before adopting a puppy from a farm.
Based on my own past anecdotal experiences, I favor adopting a dog from as young as possible (~8 weeks), to endeavor to have more influence over how it turns out. Most shelter dogs that I've encountered in my area are a year or more in age.
Large-scale breeders and shelters are not the only two choices; I adopted my most recent dog from a family on a farm.
Perhaps in an ideal world, no more dogs would be born until all existing dogs have a permanent home. But that seems unlikely to happen. If nobody adopts the new-born dogs, then would not they just end up in a shelter? If the blame belongs anywhere, it's on those who (at a large scale or at a small scale) breed their dogs, not on the people who adopt them.
Large-scale breeders and shelters are not the only two choices; I adopted my most recent dog from a family on a farm.
Perhaps in an ideal world, no more dogs would be born until all existing dogs have a permanent home. But that seems unlikely to happen. If nobody adopts the new-born dogs, then would not they just end up in a shelter? If the blame belongs anywhere, it's on those who (at a large scale or at a small scale) breed their dogs, not on the people who adopt them.
I'm generally in favor of blaming the consumer. Markets respond to pressures. If there were no market for dogs (especially pure-bred dogs), we wouldn't see so many breeders out there. I'm not giving the breeders any sort of free pass, but I've got to ultimately lay the blame at the foot of the consumer.
As for your own experiences, I can't speak to those. I've had good luck adopting from shelters even over a year. Old dogs can still learn new tricks. And when getting a young dog, there is no guarantee that you're not going to get one with any of various neuroses.
As for your own experiences, I can't speak to those. I've had good luck adopting from shelters even over a year. Old dogs can still learn new tricks. And when getting a young dog, there is no guarantee that you're not going to get one with any of various neuroses.
Either side (or both) could choose to stop the cycle.
I did not summon my dog into existence; had there been no dogs available directly from (reputable) breeders, I would have either found an agreeable candidate at a shelter, or not adopted at all.
Absurdly, tjr.
I did not summon my dog into existence; had there been no dogs available directly from (reputable) breeders, I would have either found an agreeable candidate at a shelter, or not adopted at all.
Absurdly, tjr.
>> I have never understood why people are willing to purchase dogs.
Sadly, certain breeds of dogs are considered a status symbol, are trendy, or buyers think they can sell the offspring of said dog to recoup the costs (and then some).
Remember the glut of Dalmations at shelters after the '101 Dalmations' movie came out? Every kid wanted one, parents bought them, and after realizing they can be very difficult dogs to live with, they were sent to the shelters.
Sadly, certain breeds of dogs are considered a status symbol, are trendy, or buyers think they can sell the offspring of said dog to recoup the costs (and then some).
Remember the glut of Dalmations at shelters after the '101 Dalmations' movie came out? Every kid wanted one, parents bought them, and after realizing they can be very difficult dogs to live with, they were sent to the shelters.
Well, people want what they want. And with dogs there's a ton of variation so getting what you want - right now - is more important to some people.
With cats, not so much. Most people want kittens, which there are always plenty of at the right times, and the variation in cats tends to be a little more interesting to the average cat owner. I've personally never owned 2 similar cats - other than two brothers who still were very different.
With cats, not so much. Most people want kittens, which there are always plenty of at the right times, and the variation in cats tends to be a little more interesting to the average cat owner. I've personally never owned 2 similar cats - other than two brothers who still were very different.
>I have never understood why people are willing to purchase dogs.
Because we wanted a shiba. Because we wanted a dog where we knew it had parents without serious genetic defects, health or temperament problems. Because we wanted a puppy so we could be sure it hadn't had a chance to have behavioural problems created through bad training, abuse, etc.
>Between the conditions of large-scale breeders
What does that have to do with anything? You can purchase a dog without getting it from a puppy mill.
>the amount of animals waiting in shelters
There were 3 dogs at our local shelter, 2 at the one 45 minutes away, and 2 at the one a half hour away. I asked a woman at the local shelter when they last had to euthanize a dog for space reasons, and she responded "I don't know, I've only been here for two years". The amount of animals at shelters does not appear to be an issue here.
Because we wanted a shiba. Because we wanted a dog where we knew it had parents without serious genetic defects, health or temperament problems. Because we wanted a puppy so we could be sure it hadn't had a chance to have behavioural problems created through bad training, abuse, etc.
>Between the conditions of large-scale breeders
What does that have to do with anything? You can purchase a dog without getting it from a puppy mill.
>the amount of animals waiting in shelters
There were 3 dogs at our local shelter, 2 at the one 45 minutes away, and 2 at the one a half hour away. I asked a woman at the local shelter when they last had to euthanize a dog for space reasons, and she responded "I don't know, I've only been here for two years". The amount of animals at shelters does not appear to be an issue here.
>The amount of animals at shelters does not appear to be an issue here.
The numbers really don't agree with you there. Your anecdotal evidence really doesn't mean much. With 6 to 8 million animals entering shelters each year and 3 to 4 million being euthanized, the amount of animals is most definitely an issue.
http://www.humanesociety.org/animal_community/resources/qa/c...
The numbers really don't agree with you there. Your anecdotal evidence really doesn't mean much. With 6 to 8 million animals entering shelters each year and 3 to 4 million being euthanized, the amount of animals is most definitely an issue.
http://www.humanesociety.org/animal_community/resources/qa/c...
>Your anecdotal evidence really doesn't mean much.
Yes it does. I would not be able to solve the mythical overpopulation problem even if it existed. The question was how can I feel justified in buying a pet. The question is thus entirely about my impact. So my personal circumstances are in fact the only thing that is relevant. The fact that many dogs are killed in the southern US has no impact on me in canada.
Yes it does. I would not be able to solve the mythical overpopulation problem even if it existed. The question was how can I feel justified in buying a pet. The question is thus entirely about my impact. So my personal circumstances are in fact the only thing that is relevant. The fact that many dogs are killed in the southern US has no impact on me in canada.
Funny this comes out, when only last week this research was released http://www.news.ucdavis.edu/search/news_detail.lasso?id=1049...
"Neutering, and the age at which a dog is neutered, may affect the animal’s risk for developing certain cancers and joint diseases"
It is also worth checking out Nathan Winograd, who is campaigning to make ALL shelters in America no-kill. It is worth looking at the statistics and reasons why shelters kill animals in their care, as most often, it is not simply that there are not enough homes.
http://www.nathanwinograd.com/?p=10627
Sorry to be "that guy" but "dog days" has nothing to do with a summertime culling of stray dogs. It has to do with the "Dog Star", Sirius: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_days
This is a good article, and puppy mills (and the general unnaturalness of many dog breeds) are something more people should know about.
This is a good article, and puppy mills (and the general unnaturalness of many dog breeds) are something more people should know about.
Hey, you're right. We updated the article with your link and clarified the original source better. Thanks for pointing that out.
> These breeders can raise their dogs in idyllic conditions of sunny farms, financed by the high premium placed on purebreds.
That sounds logical, but from my talking to various breeders it just isn't reality. They claim to barely break even or even lose money, despite charging ~$1000 per dog. Most of them seem to have other income that supplements their hobby.
Good breeders are motivated by love of the breed and not by money (which, to be fair the article pointed out).
That sounds logical, but from my talking to various breeders it just isn't reality. They claim to barely break even or even lose money, despite charging ~$1000 per dog. Most of them seem to have other income that supplements their hobby.
Good breeders are motivated by love of the breed and not by money (which, to be fair the article pointed out).
Neutering in rats slightly increases lifespan of the animal. If this could be proven in dogs/cats, etc. as a more general biological phenomenon I think it'd be a great selling point for the procedure to new pet owners.
Who doesn't want their new pet to live longer?
http://www.ratbehavior.org/Neutering.htm
Who doesn't want their new pet to live longer?
http://www.ratbehavior.org/Neutering.htm
https://www.avma.org/News/JAVMANews/Pages/100301g.aspx
"New research on the biology of aging in dogs suggests a link between shortened life expectancy and ovary removal."
"The study, published in the December 2009 issue of the journal Aging Cell, found that Rottweilers that were spayed after they were 6 years old were 4.6 times as likely to reach 13 years of age as were Rottweilers that were spayed at a younger age."
"New research on the biology of aging in dogs suggests a link between shortened life expectancy and ovary removal."
"The study, published in the December 2009 issue of the journal Aging Cell, found that Rottweilers that were spayed after they were 6 years old were 4.6 times as likely to reach 13 years of age as were Rottweilers that were spayed at a younger age."
I volunteer as a canine friend at the Berkeley East Bay Humane Society and it kills me to know that for every one of the dogs that they save (no kill policy), many other dogs who are just as sweet are put down.
I've been volunteering there for a year and have never had a problem with a dog. Their population is almost exclusively pitbulls and they've all been great.
I started freelancing a few months ago and my first client was http://www.wagaroo.com The site is built with rails and ember.js. It's very MVP right now and any feedback is appreciated.
They just got started and are only working with shelters and rescues for now. Their ultimate plan is to include responsible breeders and fight the puppy mills but they are taking their time in order gain understanding and to find the best way to make it happen.
I've been volunteering there for a year and have never had a problem with a dog. Their population is almost exclusively pitbulls and they've all been great.
I started freelancing a few months ago and my first client was http://www.wagaroo.com The site is built with rails and ember.js. It's very MVP right now and any feedback is appreciated.
They just got started and are only working with shelters and rescues for now. Their ultimate plan is to include responsible breeders and fight the puppy mills but they are taking their time in order gain understanding and to find the best way to make it happen.
This is a great priceonomics post (your blog is amazing, second only to the old OKCupid blog!)
I feel kind of bad for wanting a purebred cat now, vs. a shelter cat, but I'll probably do it anyway (the breeder is someone I know, and probably loses $1-2k on each kitten since it's just a hobby for a rich spouse, etc.) Russian Blues seem worth it. I'm considering taking an ex show cat instead of a kitten, though.
I feel kind of bad for wanting a purebred cat now, vs. a shelter cat, but I'll probably do it anyway (the breeder is someone I know, and probably loses $1-2k on each kitten since it's just a hobby for a rich spouse, etc.) Russian Blues seem worth it. I'm considering taking an ex show cat instead of a kitten, though.
Anyone have numbers on the total number of pets in the US? Or on the number of natural deaths each year? It's hard to contextualize these numbers without understanding the overall population.
I've never really used their product, but the priceonomics blog is excellent. Complete, thorough, deeply researched and well written. Kudos!
I thought this article was going to be about the $52 billion a year Americans spend on pets.
It is worth noting that the campaign to make spaying and neutering required has also done considerable harm. Puppies are often spayed and neutered as young as 6 weeks, despite the numerous health problems associated with the practice. Even the standard 6 months causes significant increases in a number of health problems. We need to stop punishing our pets based on the notion that if we don't get them fixed early, they will breed via magic or spores or something of the sort. You can in fact prevent your dog from having sex with other dogs.
"they will breed via magic or spores or something of the sort."
You obviously don't understand the problem, the problem isn't with people who are responsible. The problem is with people dump there dogs on the side of the road, the people who breed there dogs because it sounded cool, or to make money and end up not being able to sell them/give them away and end up dumping them somewhere.
I have never heard of "significant increases in a number of health problems" in spaying/neutering at the sixth month mark, this may be different for some dogs but thats besides the point. Spaying/neutering is not bad, doing so indiscriminately(like everything) is bad. I dont know where your coming from calling it "punishing" the pets. Even with the surgery itself most dogs are up & running in 1-2 days.
I would agree that spaying/neutering is not the complete answer. We should be punishing people who hurt there pets. You should not be able to have a pet if you have been proven not responsible to have one, you should be punished for doing harm to them.
Pets arn't the problem, people are. Pet over population and other problems are simply the sad side effect of humanity.
You obviously don't understand the problem, the problem isn't with people who are responsible. The problem is with people dump there dogs on the side of the road, the people who breed there dogs because it sounded cool, or to make money and end up not being able to sell them/give them away and end up dumping them somewhere.
I have never heard of "significant increases in a number of health problems" in spaying/neutering at the sixth month mark, this may be different for some dogs but thats besides the point. Spaying/neutering is not bad, doing so indiscriminately(like everything) is bad. I dont know where your coming from calling it "punishing" the pets. Even with the surgery itself most dogs are up & running in 1-2 days.
I would agree that spaying/neutering is not the complete answer. We should be punishing people who hurt there pets. You should not be able to have a pet if you have been proven not responsible to have one, you should be punished for doing harm to them.
Pets arn't the problem, people are. Pet over population and other problems are simply the sad side effect of humanity.
>You obviously don't understand the problem, the problem isn't with people who are responsible
That indicates that I do understand the problem. Trying to push responsible owners to harm their pets because other people would let their dogs breed doesn't make any sense.
>I have never heard of "significant increases in a number of health problems" in spaying/neutering at the sixth month mark
That is why I am mentioning it, because so few people realize there is a problem. There has been a blind push to having all animals spayed/neutered before they are mature, without regards to the welfare of the animals. A list of some health problems associated with desexing: http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/201...
>I dont know where your coming from calling it "punishing" the pets.
I suspect you would have no confusion if it were your sex organs being removed.
That indicates that I do understand the problem. Trying to push responsible owners to harm their pets because other people would let their dogs breed doesn't make any sense.
>I have never heard of "significant increases in a number of health problems" in spaying/neutering at the sixth month mark
That is why I am mentioning it, because so few people realize there is a problem. There has been a blind push to having all animals spayed/neutered before they are mature, without regards to the welfare of the animals. A list of some health problems associated with desexing: http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/201...
>I dont know where your coming from calling it "punishing" the pets.
I suspect you would have no confusion if it were your sex organs being removed.
No that's not the entire problem. The author rightfully points out the issue with buying from large scale breeders - especially when so many adoptable pets are living in shelters.
Pets are simply the sad side effect of humanity.
What exactly is that supposed to mean? Pets can give their owners all kinds of health benefits, emotionally, and otherwise. Humanity isn't all bad, last I checked. I do enjoy my dog.
What exactly is that supposed to mean? Pets can give their owners all kinds of health benefits, emotionally, and otherwise. Humanity isn't all bad, last I checked. I do enjoy my dog.
Sorry, allow me to clarify, the pet overpopulation problem* is simply a said side effect to humanity.
Got it ;-)!
Do you have any sources for this? Vets and shelters I have had contact with indicate only a slight increased risk. I don't have their sources handy, but I do know they've researched the issue extensively.
In general, only the more "old-fashioned" vets have qualms about early spaying and neutering.
As to magic spores... well in a shelter environment if a puppy goes out intact it will likely not be fixed by the new owner, often just due to inertia, though occasionally through misguided notions of pet health (e.g. "she'll be so much happier if she just has _one_ litter). Cats of course are a whole different ball game as many people allow their cats to wander around the neighborhood.
In general, only the more "old-fashioned" vets have qualms about early spaying and neutering.
As to magic spores... well in a shelter environment if a puppy goes out intact it will likely not be fixed by the new owner, often just due to inertia, though occasionally through misguided notions of pet health (e.g. "she'll be so much happier if she just has _one_ litter). Cats of course are a whole different ball game as many people allow their cats to wander around the neighborhood.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10225598
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12433723
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9691849
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3506104
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11202221
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15577502
http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/javma.2004.224....
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11787155
http://www.grca.org/health/bigfour_hypo.html
>In general, only the more "old-fashioned" vets have qualms about early spaying and neutering.
Is "old-fasioned" a code for "actually believes in that do no harm nonsense"?
>As to magic spores... well in a shelter environment if a puppy goes out intact it will likely not be fixed by the new owner
Yes, but my dog is not in a shelter, it is in my house. So the constant "you are a bad owner because your dog has testicles" bullshit really doesn't help save anyone or anything.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12433723
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9691849
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3506104
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11202221
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15577502
http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/javma.2004.224....
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11787155
http://www.grca.org/health/bigfour_hypo.html
>In general, only the more "old-fashioned" vets have qualms about early spaying and neutering.
Is "old-fasioned" a code for "actually believes in that do no harm nonsense"?
>As to magic spores... well in a shelter environment if a puppy goes out intact it will likely not be fixed by the new owner
Yes, but my dog is not in a shelter, it is in my house. So the constant "you are a bad owner because your dog has testicles" bullshit really doesn't help save anyone or anything.
No, old-fashioned is not a code word for that specific test. it was the best word I could come with for a more traditional mindset vet.
Some vets agree with you and consider it unethical. Many other vets disagree.
Haven't read these all yet, but should note:
Conclusions and Clinical Relevance—Because earlyage gonadectomy appears to offer more benefits than risks for male dogs, animal shelters can safely gonadectomize male dogs at a young age and veterinary practitioners should consider recommending routine gonadectomy for client-owned male dogs before the traditional age of 6 to 8 months. For female dogs, however, increased urinary incontinence suggests that delaying gonadectomy until at least 3 months of age may be beneficial. ( J Am Vet Med Assoc 2004; 224:380–387) (http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/javma.2004.224....)
As to your dog, assuming it's adult what does early age neutering have to do with the situation?
Sounds like you're getting some heat from others about your decision to not neuter an adult male dog. That's a different debate that has nothing to do with neutering dogs at a younger age.
Some vets agree with you and consider it unethical. Many other vets disagree.
Haven't read these all yet, but should note:
Conclusions and Clinical Relevance—Because earlyage gonadectomy appears to offer more benefits than risks for male dogs, animal shelters can safely gonadectomize male dogs at a young age and veterinary practitioners should consider recommending routine gonadectomy for client-owned male dogs before the traditional age of 6 to 8 months. For female dogs, however, increased urinary incontinence suggests that delaying gonadectomy until at least 3 months of age may be beneficial. ( J Am Vet Med Assoc 2004; 224:380–387) (http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/javma.2004.224....)
As to your dog, assuming it's adult what does early age neutering have to do with the situation?
Sounds like you're getting some heat from others about your decision to not neuter an adult male dog. That's a different debate that has nothing to do with neutering dogs at a younger age.
>Many other vets disagree.
Yes, and many vets recommend horrible things like declawing. Being a vet does not come with any requirement to be moral or ethical, nor to care about animals at all. Notice how many vets refuse to euthanize animals hit by cars and brought to their clinic? Because the $6 matters more to them than the suffering of the animal.
>but should note
Yes, vets do have an unfortunate financial motivation that is often at odds with the best interests of the animals.
>As to your dog, assuming it's adult what does early age neutering have to do with the situation?
He's not an adult, he's 9 months old.
Yes, and many vets recommend horrible things like declawing. Being a vet does not come with any requirement to be moral or ethical, nor to care about animals at all. Notice how many vets refuse to euthanize animals hit by cars and brought to their clinic? Because the $6 matters more to them than the suffering of the animal.
>but should note
Yes, vets do have an unfortunate financial motivation that is often at odds with the best interests of the animals.
>As to your dog, assuming it's adult what does early age neutering have to do with the situation?
He's not an adult, he's 9 months old.
> Yes, and many vets recommend horrible things like declawing.
Is that really that bad? I'll admit that in the past I've had indoor cats declawed, which frankly really made my life easier. That's a bit selfish, I admit, but I also didn't see any negative aspect to the cat's behavior compared to other (clawed) cats I've had.
> Yes, vets do have an unfortunate financial motivation that is often at odds with the best interests of the animals.
So do human doctors, and yet we trust them or get second opinions when things don't make sense to us. I try to treat my pets the same way.
Is that really that bad? I'll admit that in the past I've had indoor cats declawed, which frankly really made my life easier. That's a bit selfish, I admit, but I also didn't see any negative aspect to the cat's behavior compared to other (clawed) cats I've had.
> Yes, vets do have an unfortunate financial motivation that is often at odds with the best interests of the animals.
So do human doctors, and yet we trust them or get second opinions when things don't make sense to us. I try to treat my pets the same way.
>Is that really that bad?
Yes, I certainly consider mutilating animals for convenience to be bad. The process is removing the ends of their fingers. Look at your hand. See the last knuckle? Cut there.
>So do human doctors, and yet we trust them or get second opinions when things don't make sense to us.
We can also sue them if they recommend elective surgery that causes harm because they want money. This option is not available with vets. If your doctor solicited you with a "our records indicate your child is 5 years old, please book an appointment now to have his or her sexual organs removed. It is dangerous to have an intact child, and you are a bad parent if you do not have us remove his or her sex organs." notice, I suspect you would strongly consider a new doctor.
Yes, I certainly consider mutilating animals for convenience to be bad. The process is removing the ends of their fingers. Look at your hand. See the last knuckle? Cut there.
>So do human doctors, and yet we trust them or get second opinions when things don't make sense to us.
We can also sue them if they recommend elective surgery that causes harm because they want money. This option is not available with vets. If your doctor solicited you with a "our records indicate your child is 5 years old, please book an appointment now to have his or her sexual organs removed. It is dangerous to have an intact child, and you are a bad parent if you do not have us remove his or her sex organs." notice, I suspect you would strongly consider a new doctor.
Hmmm. Framing it as mutilation makes it hard to debate it rationally.
And as visceral an image is of cutting off the above the top knuckle of my finger, I'm still left a bit unconvinced. That may be true in a purely physiological sense, but really human hands and cat paws have a much different design and function. Our hands are much more manipulatory than cats' paws—they mostly use their paws to hold things steady and then manipulate things with their mouths. Claws don't usually come into play there. For straight walking and running they use their pads, which (as far as I know) don't get removed.
Also, every vet I've encountered has recommended not declawing the back paws (which, from what I understand are the ones that get used when cats are actually defending themselves).
> We can also sue them if they recommend elective surgery that causes harm because they want money.
It's not clear to me that getting dogs and cats fixed is a purely monetary drive for a vet. I have to believe that vets put down a lot of animals. And these are people that choose the career because they like animals (I've yet to meet a vet that doesn't fawn over the dogs and cats I bring in). I'd like to think that the spaying and neutering push comes from not wanting to have to kill so many pets. And by all accounts, the spay-and-neuter-your-pets push has cut down on the number of animals euthanized...
I think to label vets' motives as purely financially driven is a very bleak view.
And as visceral an image is of cutting off the above the top knuckle of my finger, I'm still left a bit unconvinced. That may be true in a purely physiological sense, but really human hands and cat paws have a much different design and function. Our hands are much more manipulatory than cats' paws—they mostly use their paws to hold things steady and then manipulate things with their mouths. Claws don't usually come into play there. For straight walking and running they use their pads, which (as far as I know) don't get removed.
Also, every vet I've encountered has recommended not declawing the back paws (which, from what I understand are the ones that get used when cats are actually defending themselves).
> We can also sue them if they recommend elective surgery that causes harm because they want money.
It's not clear to me that getting dogs and cats fixed is a purely monetary drive for a vet. I have to believe that vets put down a lot of animals. And these are people that choose the career because they like animals (I've yet to meet a vet that doesn't fawn over the dogs and cats I bring in). I'd like to think that the spaying and neutering push comes from not wanting to have to kill so many pets. And by all accounts, the spay-and-neuter-your-pets push has cut down on the number of animals euthanized...
I think to label vets' motives as purely financially driven is a very bleak view.
>Framing it as mutilation makes it hard to debate it rationally.
Framing it as anything else is dishonest.
"To disfigure by damaging irreparably"
"To make imperfect by excising or altering parts"
>which, from what I understand are the ones that get used when cats are actually defending themselves
Cats use all 4 limbs, and their mouth to defend themselves.
>I have to believe that vets put down a lot of animals
Not due to overpopulation though.
>And these are people that choose the career because they like animals
You should go to a vet conference sometime, there's a whole lot of vets who have no apparent affection for animals at all.
Framing it as anything else is dishonest.
"To disfigure by damaging irreparably"
"To make imperfect by excising or altering parts"
>which, from what I understand are the ones that get used when cats are actually defending themselves
Cats use all 4 limbs, and their mouth to defend themselves.
>I have to believe that vets put down a lot of animals
Not due to overpopulation though.
>And these are people that choose the career because they like animals
You should go to a vet conference sometime, there's a whole lot of vets who have no apparent affection for animals at all.
Personally, depending upon breed I wouldn't neuter until your dog is mature, irrespective of health issues, there are numerous behavioural issues that neutering can bring about.
There is a second fear period that all dogs go through, and removing testosterone CAN in some dogs cause them to develop nervousness &/or fearful aggression, not to mention other behaviours.
It is best to wait until a dog of either sex is mature for their breed, for most dogs that won't be until 2 years of age at the earliest.
> You can in fact prevent your dog from having sex with other dogs.
Yes, mostly because dogs, in general, can be easily fenced in. Cats, however, are much more wily.
Yes, mostly because dogs, in general, can be easily fenced in. Cats, however, are much more wily.
Yes, I should have been more specific, as the research showing health problems is all on dogs. I would like to point out that indoor cats exist though.
> Yes, I should have been more specific, as the research showing health problems is all on dogs.
Ah, fair enough.
> I would like to point out that indoor cats exist though.
They exist in theory :-). I've had a few indoor cats--Every single one has gotten out at some point (cats are pretty sneaky bastards). One wasn't spayed when she got out and was gone for a about 4 hours. Guess who was pregnant when she got back? Sigh...
Ah, fair enough.
> I would like to point out that indoor cats exist though.
They exist in theory :-). I've had a few indoor cats--Every single one has gotten out at some point (cats are pretty sneaky bastards). One wasn't spayed when she got out and was gone for a about 4 hours. Guess who was pregnant when she got back? Sigh...
Outdoor cats are a huge threat to wildlife as well. A skilled cat is capable of hunting just about anything in your backyard.
They exist in practice too. I've had 9 indoor cats. I have not had any problems with escaping (only 3 of them have even had a desire to go outside at all).
Wow, that's pretty impressive. Every cat I've had has had a desire to outside at some point. I had a couple that learned how to open the screen door! So we put an extra door hook on it and they figured out that if they rattled it enough they could pop the hook out and get the door open anyway.
In our case, we have a cat that one of the kids left at home, and she wasn't "fixed". Had her about a year or so. Recently, we had to take care of another cat for a couple weeks (a male, again with all his parts in tact). Didn't even think about it (had a bunch of other things going on at the time). Guess what happened?
There is almost no reason to "buy" a dog -- the shelters are overcrowded, and the odds are good you can find what you want regarding breed/temperament if you're patient. Responsible shelters will find you the right dog if you tell them what you're looking for.