Don’t Call The New Microsoft Surface RT A Tablet, This Is A PC(techcrunch.com)
techcrunch.com
Don’t Call The New Microsoft Surface RT A Tablet, This Is A PC
http://techcrunch.com/2012/10/23/microsoft-surface-rt-review/
8 comments
How is it not running PC applications? It doesn't run x86 applications, it doesn't run other desktop applications. I very much hope that metro will be an inspiration for "PC" applications everywhere: Plain, responsive and made for tiling. I have been using macs almost exclusively for about 8 years, but I'm getting more and more annoyed with all the cute skeumorphisms.
Windows RT will only run 3rd party applications sold through the MS App Store. For me at least, one of the defining features of a PC is that you can run whatever software you like on it.
Does Linux run well on touchscreen type devices these days? I haven't really kept up with developments there lately.
KDE working actively on their Plasma for touch devices. Here is 8 month old demo - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h41yVOS6fao
Could not find anything newer and do not have spare table to install it. But work is definitely done.
Could not find anything newer and do not have spare table to install it. But work is definitely done.
From one month ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulcizzAj-N4
Android is Linux-based, so... yeah. It runs pretty well on touchscreen type devices.
Well yes, if I loaded up Android on there, I'd be running Linux from a OS design standpoint, but there are some pretty important practical differences in what apps run on Android and what apps run on Ubuntu or Debian for ARM.
People have ported useful Linux tools to Android, but so far, it's not nearly as comprehensive as having a full-on Linux package management system. So I gues my question is whether there more Linuxy versions of Linux -- distros that run XWindows apps, and where you can pull full-blown versions of things like Octave, Emacs, gcc, and so on out of a package library -- with touchscreen support in the same class as Android?
People have ported useful Linux tools to Android, but so far, it's not nearly as comprehensive as having a full-on Linux package management system. So I gues my question is whether there more Linuxy versions of Linux -- distros that run XWindows apps, and where you can pull full-blown versions of things like Octave, Emacs, gcc, and so on out of a package library -- with touchscreen support in the same class as Android?
> People have ported useful Linux tools to Android
I was genuinely surprised how the jailbroken iOS userland gives you a really good debian-like experience, whereas with Android you often get just busybox and the rest is more up to you like LFS.
I was genuinely surprised how the jailbroken iOS userland gives you a really good debian-like experience, whereas with Android you often get just busybox and the rest is more up to you like LFS.
Maemo/Meego or whatever they're naming it today is probably the closest thing to what you're referring to. It supposedly had a very standard Linux userland although it had some binary-only packages (IIRC for the radio parts).
Canonical has also been pushing Ubuntu onto the space. They have Ubuntu for Android[1] where you keep using Android on phones/tablets but then are able to tether them to a screen/keyboard and have a full Ubuntu running out of the same device and accessing the same data. They've also just demo'd Ubuntu as a real tablet OS on a Nexus 7[2].
[1] http://www.ubuntu.com/devices/android [2] http://www.mobilemag.com/2012/10/23/ubuntu-running-on-nexus-...
Canonical has also been pushing Ubuntu onto the space. They have Ubuntu for Android[1] where you keep using Android on phones/tablets but then are able to tether them to a screen/keyboard and have a full Ubuntu running out of the same device and accessing the same data. They've also just demo'd Ubuntu as a real tablet OS on a Nexus 7[2].
[1] http://www.ubuntu.com/devices/android [2] http://www.mobilemag.com/2012/10/23/ubuntu-running-on-nexus-...
@tesseractive - Canonical has been working on multitouch in Ubuntu for a while now. Unity (the main Ubuntu desktop environment) was built for this very purpose. Canonical has been conceptualizing and building the environment for this very purpose - if you have a look at their current direction, they're trying to pull this same interface across desktops, TVs, phones and tablets. It still remains to be seen how well they do, but it has already made good progress.
The Android X86 project — http://www.android-x86.org/ is probably your best bet for a Linux distro that functions well on a tablet PC. It's a port of Android open source to an x86 platform, pretty damn awesome. Still pretty flaky on multitouch support for the moment though, but give it some time and it'll eventually support it. I love open source.
When Apple's designs have been good (or any company's really), others are usually quick to copy. Philosophy is surprisingly hard to emulate though. One of the things that has made Apple successful has been its tendency to make a decision about the "right way" to do X, especially when X is new. The size of an ipad, no stylus or keyboard on the iphone. 15" laptops are exclusively high end… A lot of the time this is infuriatingly eliminates options for the consumer. It does result in an excellent option, pre-picked & perfected.
It's what has given Apple their "radical" feel.
MS has a lot of money. Good margins compared to PC manufacturers. They can afford to be a little bold. Here instead of offering two different keyboards (or no keyboard) and letting consumers choose, figure out which one works better. Make the perfect keyboard for a touch device. Most consumers have never had one of these devices before. Their guess at whether or not
Apple told us the best option was no keyboard. Android me-tooed. If Microsoft have a better answer, I'd like to see them champion it with confidence. Commit to the design. Letting the market decide is great and given a choice between intelligent design only and evolution only, I'd go with evolution. But, I'd rather have both. Since MS is leaving its world of software to create a machine that demonstrates its new OS parading, I'd like to see them treading confidently.
just do it Microsoft.
It's what has given Apple their "radical" feel.
MS has a lot of money. Good margins compared to PC manufacturers. They can afford to be a little bold. Here instead of offering two different keyboards (or no keyboard) and letting consumers choose, figure out which one works better. Make the perfect keyboard for a touch device. Most consumers have never had one of these devices before. Their guess at whether or not
Apple told us the best option was no keyboard. Android me-tooed. If Microsoft have a better answer, I'd like to see them champion it with confidence. Commit to the design. Letting the market decide is great and given a choice between intelligent design only and evolution only, I'd go with evolution. But, I'd rather have both. Since MS is leaving its world of software to create a machine that demonstrates its new OS parading, I'd like to see them treading confidently.
just do it Microsoft.
A PC that can't run any PC app? You can like Surface RT if you want but let's not be ridiculous, it's not a PC.
The author is obviously pointing out the he (or she, I didn't look) sees the surface as being more than a content consumption device and possible contender as a desktop/laptop replacement.
No need to be overly (and wrongly) pedantic.
No need to be overly (and wrongly) pedantic.
> more than a content consumption device and possible contender as a desktop/laptop replacement.
Yeah I'd love a desktop replacement that cannot and will never run any legacy Win32 apps. Sounds awesome.
Yeah I'd love a desktop replacement that cannot and will never run any legacy Win32 apps. Sounds awesome.
Needless snark like this completely lowers the quality of discussion. Just make your (agreeable!) point and move on.
Well, there seems to be a market for Chromebooks. I can't imagine they're intended as tablets since they don't have touchscreens or anything, so I guess they'd have to be laptop substitutes.
Of course, Chromebooks start at half the price of the base Surface RT.
Of course, Chromebooks start at half the price of the base Surface RT.
> Well, there seems to be a market for Chromebooks.
And just like Surface RT, they wont be seen as a desktop replacement any time soon.
And just like Surface RT, they wont be seen as a desktop replacement any time soon.
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not certain how much of a market for chrome books there really is
I had previously heard rumours of sales of only 50000 units worldwide (Cannot source atm)
http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/05/29/few-buy-chromebooks...
I had previously heard rumours of sales of only 50000 units worldwide (Cannot source atm)
http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/05/29/few-buy-chromebooks...
Is it not true that Linux and Mac OSX are viable for new desktops even though they cannot and will never run any legacy Win32 apps?
Out of curiosity, what legacy Win32 apps are you actually looking to use? I'm generally a Windows user, but not really for the legacy apps.
Out of curiosity, what legacy Win32 apps are you actually looking to use? I'm generally a Windows user, but not really for the legacy apps.
> Out of curiosity, what legacy Win32 apps are you actually looking to use?
Well given that every Win32 app is a legacy app as far as Surface RT is concerned, I would say "all of them".
Oh, and you can too run legacy Win32 apps on OSX and Linux, Wine and Virtualbox being two prime examples of how.
Well given that every Win32 app is a legacy app as far as Surface RT is concerned, I would say "all of them".
Oh, and you can too run legacy Win32 apps on OSX and Linux, Wine and Virtualbox being two prime examples of how.
Why don't we start with Photoshop? Perhaps Lightroom?
Every single App you currently use on Windows is a "legacy app" for Windows RT. They'll all have to be written from scratch.
Every single App you currently use on Windows is a "legacy app" for Windows RT. They'll all have to be written from scratch.
Photoshop and Lightroom aren't available on Linux; Linux is generally still considered a viable option as a Desktop replacement by a lot of people. Anything that used to be Win32 only and is now on OSX or Linux was also "written from scratch", and any product that has had the demand has been able to do it.
I'm not going to get a Surface, but to be clear every singe app that I currently use on Windows is definitely going to be available at launch on Windows RT, assuming you count Chrome and IE10 as interchangeable (which non-experts do) or if a version of Chrome launches (like the version on iOS). It's going to launch with a browser, a chat client, a media player, and a random set of games. There is nothing else that I run on Win7.
Anything intended to be used on a touchscreen device needs to be written from scratch. Any application intended to be used by a mouse used on a touchscreen is an absolutely awful experience (I used a WinXP laptop with a touchscreen display about 6 years ago, totally fine laptop but the touch screen is useless because the usability in apps is not there). You can't expect to just run Lightroom on a touchscreen and expect it to work well.
I had never heard of Lightroom before, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like it is targeted at professional photographers or hobbyist photographers who have $1000+ camera equipment. I dual boot Ubuntu for development, and I recognize that is esoteric hobbyist usage, and I don't expect Windows to start supporting all the tools I want for development out of the box. I can't imagine who really thinks that level of usage should be supported by a low end consumer device.
I'm not going to get a Surface, but to be clear every singe app that I currently use on Windows is definitely going to be available at launch on Windows RT, assuming you count Chrome and IE10 as interchangeable (which non-experts do) or if a version of Chrome launches (like the version on iOS). It's going to launch with a browser, a chat client, a media player, and a random set of games. There is nothing else that I run on Win7.
Anything intended to be used on a touchscreen device needs to be written from scratch. Any application intended to be used by a mouse used on a touchscreen is an absolutely awful experience (I used a WinXP laptop with a touchscreen display about 6 years ago, totally fine laptop but the touch screen is useless because the usability in apps is not there). You can't expect to just run Lightroom on a touchscreen and expect it to work well.
I had never heard of Lightroom before, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like it is targeted at professional photographers or hobbyist photographers who have $1000+ camera equipment. I dual boot Ubuntu for development, and I recognize that is esoteric hobbyist usage, and I don't expect Windows to start supporting all the tools I want for development out of the box. I can't imagine who really thinks that level of usage should be supported by a low end consumer device.
> Photoshop and Lightroom aren't available on Linux; Linux is generally still considered a viable option as a Desktop replacement by a lot of people. Anything that used to be Win32 only and is now on OSX or Linux was also "written from scratch", and any product that has had the demand has been able to do it.
Don't move the goalposts: you "what legacy Win32 apps are you actually looking to use?" I responded with some common ones. Let's go simpler then: dropbox is a "legacy" app that you cannot install.
The conversation was in the context of desktop operating systems, you yourself said it: "Is it not true that Linux and Mac OSX are viable for new desktops"
You can debate for hours if linux is "viable" for desktops (Year of the desktop! 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002...) but that just confuses the conversation further. It's impossible to argue that WinRT is.
Don't move the goalposts: you "what legacy Win32 apps are you actually looking to use?" I responded with some common ones. Let's go simpler then: dropbox is a "legacy" app that you cannot install.
The conversation was in the context of desktop operating systems, you yourself said it: "Is it not true that Linux and Mac OSX are viable for new desktops"
You can debate for hours if linux is "viable" for desktops (Year of the desktop! 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002...) but that just confuses the conversation further. It's impossible to argue that WinRT is.
'Surface is a PC because Adobe haven't released their Photoshop for Linux either.'
Doesn't make a compelling argument does it.
Presumably the point is that if it's a PC replacement then customers are primed to spend more on it than if it's "just" a tablet. Tablets can replace PCs for sure but not because they provide all the functionality and performance, no instead it's because - like you it seems - people don't use all the capacity of their PCs. However, MS wouldn't want to suggest that any tablet might be a PC replacement for their customers, only this one ... blah, blah.
tl;dr it's just a marketing angle
Doesn't make a compelling argument does it.
Presumably the point is that if it's a PC replacement then customers are primed to spend more on it than if it's "just" a tablet. Tablets can replace PCs for sure but not because they provide all the functionality and performance, no instead it's because - like you it seems - people don't use all the capacity of their PCs. However, MS wouldn't want to suggest that any tablet might be a PC replacement for their customers, only this one ... blah, blah.
tl;dr it's just a marketing angle
That wasn't my argument, the statement you are attributing to me is obviously false since my banana doesn't run Photoshop and it's not a PC.
My statement is in response to the claim 'Surface is not a PC because it won't have Photoshop on it'; I do not think that is a compelling argument. My statement isn't trying to go all the way to say that WinRT is a Desktop replacement, it's merely that single argument shouldn't lead you to the conclusion that it isn't.
That WinRT itself won't have Photoshop on it is probably already false if the platform succeeds at all (there is already a reduced version of Adobe Photoshop for iPad, Adobe would make a less-reduced version for RT if the demand is there and the hardware supports it). Even assuming it is, lack of Adobe Photoshop doesn't automatically make something not a viable desktop replacement for 99.9% of people.
It looks like they are pushing Surface as something to be used with a keyboard (at least more so that iPad). That seems like a reasonable thing to call out in marketing as why this device might be able to replace the desktop for some users when an iPad fell short.
Any new version of anything is going to leave out some percentage of the users unless it is a strict superset of the old functionality. Apple Maps are totally useless to anyone who only used Google Maps for public transit. It's totally ridiculous to make the claim that Apple Maps isn't a viable replacement for Google Maps based solely on the fact that for a specific fairly small set of users it isn't a viable option; Apple Maps is still a viable replacement for the vast majority of users.
My statement is in response to the claim 'Surface is not a PC because it won't have Photoshop on it'; I do not think that is a compelling argument. My statement isn't trying to go all the way to say that WinRT is a Desktop replacement, it's merely that single argument shouldn't lead you to the conclusion that it isn't.
That WinRT itself won't have Photoshop on it is probably already false if the platform succeeds at all (there is already a reduced version of Adobe Photoshop for iPad, Adobe would make a less-reduced version for RT if the demand is there and the hardware supports it). Even assuming it is, lack of Adobe Photoshop doesn't automatically make something not a viable desktop replacement for 99.9% of people.
It looks like they are pushing Surface as something to be used with a keyboard (at least more so that iPad). That seems like a reasonable thing to call out in marketing as why this device might be able to replace the desktop for some users when an iPad fell short.
Any new version of anything is going to leave out some percentage of the users unless it is a strict superset of the old functionality. Apple Maps are totally useless to anyone who only used Google Maps for public transit. It's totally ridiculous to make the claim that Apple Maps isn't a viable replacement for Google Maps based solely on the fact that for a specific fairly small set of users it isn't a viable option; Apple Maps is still a viable replacement for the vast majority of users.
Funny, my Linux install definitely runs legacy Win32 apps.
Many people have them as their primary or only computer. They call them iPads.
I didn't read it that way.
I took the primary point of calling a PC to be that it is too large to be called a tablet. The article goes to great length to point out that the keyboard is pretty much necessary, the full size usb port is necessary and that the whole package is as big as a laptop.
I took the primary point of calling a PC to be that it is too large to be called a tablet. The article goes to great length to point out that the keyboard is pretty much necessary, the full size usb port is necessary and that the whole package is as big as a laptop.
I hear people arguing that Mac and Linux are PCs, yet they don't run Windows programs. Picking the most obscure example I know of, MenuetOS runs on x86 (PC hardware) but runs next to no programs, especially not Windows, Linux, or Mac programs. A PC is either defined by the OS on it or by the processor it runs. Or we could accept that the word PC is basically meaningless marketing speak. I'm leaning towards the last option.
How would you define PC and PC app?
How would you define PC and PC app?
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Heh. Oh look it's a fully capable PC. Sure, it doesn't run win32 stuff, but that doesn't matter!
Isn't this the exact same line MS used to use against linux? It can't run win32 apps and is therefore useless?
How things change...
Isn't this the exact same line MS used to use against linux? It can't run win32 apps and is therefore useless?
How things change...
tl;dr of this review: IE sux, keyboard sux, Windows sux, don't buy it. Read Anandtech's review instead, which is much more nuanced.
You can really see how techcrunch rushed this one out the door as quickly as possible without doing much error checking. None of the images work when you click on them, there's spelling mistakes/typos everywhere and some weird expressions that don't seem to make sense at all.
You can really see how techcrunch rushed this one out the door as quickly as possible without doing much error checking. None of the images work when you click on them, there's spelling mistakes/typos everywhere and some weird expressions that don't seem to make sense at all.
In the review video the author says 'Because the screen is so wide, typing on the surface is actually rather painful.'
Is there really no keyboard split feature like on Android or iPad? Did anyone have his / her hands on it already?
Windows 8 has a split keyboard like the one introduced on the iPad. I think they may have introduced it in developer preview builds before Apple did, in fact.
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I don't know how it can be called a PC. Maybe the Surface Pro version that runs a full Windows 8 OS is the one they should be referring to. That is a true tablet with full support for legacy apps not this one.
I believe this classification was made because RT gives developers a familiar and powerful platform.
Thanks, that reinforces my supposition that "It's a PC" is just a line of bull Microsoft is feeding to conservative IT managers who are scared of iOS/Android.
Maybe I'm oldschool, but IMO a Personal Computer is end-user programmable on the device itself. RT comes with no devtools and doesn't cut it.
Maybe I'm oldschool, but IMO a Personal Computer is end-user programmable on the device itself. RT comes with no devtools and doesn't cut it.
On second read I think he might mean that because of the carppy form factor it's not correct to call this a tablet; that it only really works with the keyboard installed while resting on a desk - eg in pc mode.
a PT maybe ? Personal Tablet. :)
Its a Chromebook competitor not an iPad competitor :-)
Reading all the reviews this evening it looks like they are going for 'your corporate road warrior' type. Clearly the iPad is making inroads there, and office on the road? Check. Powerpoint to HDMI output? Check. Exchange email? Check. Given their market share in that space it seems like the right place to start.
Reading all the reviews this evening it looks like they are going for 'your corporate road warrior' type. Clearly the iPad is making inroads there, and office on the road? Check. Powerpoint to HDMI output? Check. Exchange email? Check. Given their market share in that space it seems like the right place to start.
I want one of these Surface tablets, they look nice and I really do like the appearance of Windows 8. Give it time, the surface will be cracked and you'll see people running variants of Linux on these things before you know it and then I'll be more inclined to buy.