Living Without Time(stevecorona.com)
stevecorona.com
Living Without Time
http://stevecorona.com/living-without-time
20 comments
"But for anyone in the occupation of creating things, it's hell to end up in a calendared life that's completely interrupt driven."
PG wrote about this in an essay entitled, "Maker's Schedule, Manager's Schedule." [1] You may have read it already, but if you haven't, I think it will really resonate with you.
[1] http://www.paulgraham.com/makersschedule.html
PG wrote about this in an essay entitled, "Maker's Schedule, Manager's Schedule." [1] You may have read it already, but if you haven't, I think it will really resonate with you.
[1] http://www.paulgraham.com/makersschedule.html
I really don't understand how scheduling fixed-time appointments became the natural order. Challenge that assumption and you'll be amazed at how it impacts life for the better.
I'm no historian, but the general gist I got is that with the shift from bespoke to industrial society came a regimenting of schedule. Could have sworn I read about this somewhere ("Peopleware"? "Lies my Teacher Told Me"?), and maybe even caught a synopsis on a book dedicated to the topic, but titles escape me right now. Might be worth looking into.
I'm no historian, but the general gist I got is that with the shift from bespoke to industrial society came a regimenting of schedule. Could have sworn I read about this somewhere ("Peopleware"? "Lies my Teacher Told Me"?), and maybe even caught a synopsis on a book dedicated to the topic, but titles escape me right now. Might be worth looking into.
Thanks! I'm sure you are right. Factory work would require a strict shift schedule.
> I really don't understand how scheduling fixed-time appointments became the natural order.
It depends on the work you do. Most of us on HN are typically doing open-ended work. We do not really know how long it will take. Time-fixed appointments make a lot of sense for someone who is working primarily with lots of people or who always has more requests than time to attend to them.
It depends on the work you do. Most of us on HN are typically doing open-ended work. We do not really know how long it will take. Time-fixed appointments make a lot of sense for someone who is working primarily with lots of people or who always has more requests than time to attend to them.
Also not that long ago it was way harder to quickly schedule meetings when you weren't at the same location.
I haven't worn a watch in a long time and I use my phone as a pocket watch.
Somehow, I only notice the time on my phone if I specifically pull it out for the purpose. I only notice the clock on my laptop when I'm curious about it.
I don't think banishing clocks is necessary: just care less about them.
Somehow, I only notice the time on my phone if I specifically pull it out for the purpose. I only notice the clock on my laptop when I'm curious about it.
I don't think banishing clocks is necessary: just care less about them.
> I don't think banishing clocks is necessary: just care less about them.
This. But you can't feel all hip and special and write blog posts about that people call "beautiful".
This. But you can't feel all hip and special and write blog posts about that people call "beautiful".
But maybe you are used to not care about the clock. People like the person who wrote this blog post obviously felt that the clock controlled his life and stressed him out because of that. The only way for him to not care about it is to get rid of it altogether. At least in the beginning.
Personally I don't think this would match my lifestyle. I don't know anything about this persons lifestyle but most employed people and students have deadlines they need to meet and that requires to know the clock to the minute.
Personally I don't think this would match my lifestyle. I don't know anything about this persons lifestyle but most employed people and students have deadlines they need to meet and that requires to know the clock to the minute.
I personally do this, but I do find that, at times, I learn what the time or date is. It does throw me off. I can see benefit, for me, personally, in taking it a step further and removing clocks from my life.
I had to remove the clock from my Mac's menu bar to keep from watching it constantly. I've had to train myself to 'forget' (i.e. not worry) about appointments and deadlines and just let my tools do their jobs (because most of the time, they do remind me to do things - and if I have more than one to remind me [calendar on computer, calendar on phone] then I'm pretty well covered in the event one of them fails at its job.)
My daughter has to be at school at a particular time. She gets off the afternoon bus at a particular time. Completely living "without time" isn't possible when you have to synchronize with anything else in the world. Not having to synchronize would be great, and you can have that kind of independence - it would take work to get there, but I think it'd be worth it.
My daughter has to be at school at a particular time. She gets off the afternoon bus at a particular time. Completely living "without time" isn't possible when you have to synchronize with anything else in the world. Not having to synchronize would be great, and you can have that kind of independence - it would take work to get there, but I think it'd be worth it.
The real world problem that time tries to solve is synchronization of events. By having a standard method of measuring time, we make it easier to interact with other people and society. While I think it's a great idea to not be a slave to the clock, it really doesn't help you when you miss a train because you misread the sun.
I did (and still use) alarms on my iPhone to remind me before events that I absolutely cannot miss. I agree with your point but I think you can find a balance between not missing the train and having a clock chained to your ankle.
You mentioned your iPhone clock is set to a random time zone. So one can assume that when you put events into your iPhone calendar, you must do the math?
If you add the event like.. "Take train at 2PM EST" it will do the math for you
Totally agree. Time is a useful tool, use it wisely.
> it really doesn't help you when you miss a train because you misread the sun.
I imagine Daylight Saving Time and cloudy days wreak havoc with methods like the author uses.
I imagine Daylight Saving Time and cloudy days wreak havoc with methods like the author uses.
Some books
Hugh Brody Maps and Dreams tells of land use mapping with indigenous people in Canada. They lived without time OK, adjusting activities with the length of the day, and their movement around their land by the seasons and the game available.
Barry Lopez Arctic Dreams tells the story, among other things, of the Government school teachers in a far North village who tried to get the children into school between 9 and 4 on weekdays during the summer (24 hour daylight). The children normally went to sleep when they wanted to. The community reaction was to leave the doors of the cabins unlocked and to suggest that the teachers could come and get the children if they wanted them there....
As this is HN, do we think that a significant number of people could adopt this kind of approach to time given distributed education, home working, ubiquitous computing &c? Remember that my Granddad (born 1892 in UK) went from working in the fields by the light of the Sun to punching a clock in a factory, via the First World War.
Hugh Brody Maps and Dreams tells of land use mapping with indigenous people in Canada. They lived without time OK, adjusting activities with the length of the day, and their movement around their land by the seasons and the game available.
Barry Lopez Arctic Dreams tells the story, among other things, of the Government school teachers in a far North village who tried to get the children into school between 9 and 4 on weekdays during the summer (24 hour daylight). The children normally went to sleep when they wanted to. The community reaction was to leave the doors of the cabins unlocked and to suggest that the teachers could come and get the children if they wanted them there....
As this is HN, do we think that a significant number of people could adopt this kind of approach to time given distributed education, home working, ubiquitous computing &c? Remember that my Granddad (born 1892 in UK) went from working in the fields by the light of the Sun to punching a clock in a factory, via the First World War.
This experience is quite interesting. But it would have been better if we had more context about his life.
I can't imagine to live without time at work.
My boss give deadlines I must meet. Sometimes I can't finish everything so I have to talk with my boss to decide if we renounce some features or we push the deadline. Everyday, people ask me for schedules: "When are you going to finish this?", "How long will it take if we want to do that?", etc.
You've fallen into the trap of reading about something that is written by someone who has no real boss and thinking that you could apply it to yourself.
Living 'without time' is a great idea and is ideal for how we, as humans, have developed. Unfortunately, in the real world, the rest of us need to use time to make sure we do things on other peoples schedules. Whether it be the boss, the airline, the doctor, the kid's school or whatever, we need to make sure we're aligned.
You will only be able to really do this if none of those things apply to you and you can spend your days doing whatever you want.
Living 'without time' is a great idea and is ideal for how we, as humans, have developed. Unfortunately, in the real world, the rest of us need to use time to make sure we do things on other peoples schedules. Whether it be the boss, the airline, the doctor, the kid's school or whatever, we need to make sure we're aligned.
You will only be able to really do this if none of those things apply to you and you can spend your days doing whatever you want.
Whilst there is a lot of truth here, as a founder I can say it's still very easy to "do things on other people's schedules". I think there is still a lot of discipline required to experiment with something like this, even if Steve has no "real boss".
But is it discipline or ...
Let me put it like this. I have enough problems with being late as it is. (Mind you, I think probably in the median when it comes to lateness issues among my friends.) No doubt this is indeed a source of stress in my life.
I fail to see how eliminating clocks from my life could possibly make this situation better. If appointment reminders plus clocks don't get me there in time, appointment reminders alone aren't going to do it.
I suppose I could adopt a policy of not caring if I am late, but in general that seems incredibly rude.
Let me put it like this. I have enough problems with being late as it is. (Mind you, I think probably in the median when it comes to lateness issues among my friends.) No doubt this is indeed a source of stress in my life.
I fail to see how eliminating clocks from my life could possibly make this situation better. If appointment reminders plus clocks don't get me there in time, appointment reminders alone aren't going to do it.
I suppose I could adopt a policy of not caring if I am late, but in general that seems incredibly rude.
One thing you could do is quote the day when you are going to finish it. Overall you are going to be faster not being a slave to short timescales, getting into a zone and getting a lot more done.
Full disclosure: I used the calendar on my phone to notify me before an appointment.
Living without time... except notifications of impending appointments. That's a fairly significant exception!
Living without time... except notifications of impending appointments. That's a fairly significant exception!
I don't know. From my point of view the major use case for the clock is synchronizing activity with other people. It is convenient for this as a common reference. It can be used for other purposes but a lot of those are "bloat" features on the notion of time.
Before we had computers to keep track of time and give us notifications there was a good need for us to know what time it was, so we could manually track our synchronized events - automation or outsourcing it was prohibitively expensive for a lot of purposes. Now we can move most of that clock tracking to easy, cheap, and convenient tools and live a more event driven lifestyle without losing the major benefits of worrying about what time it is. Sure there are still a few times it becomes a thing - scheduling meetings for later, figuring priorities based on deadlines, wondering if i have enough time to get into something before scheduled events, but outside these planning moments, most of the concern need no be there.
Here is the really neat thing IMHO - as we all move into this event driven paradigm, the clock may not even be the big source of synchronization.. A lot of my meetings are not decided because "this is the perfect time for it", but on "we are all available". Ok great, that means most of my meetings are pretty fungible on when they can happen. So why not put a flag on those meetings, with a reasonable priority and set of boundaries on specific times... then have a piece of software that learns my activities to figure out when I am most interruptible, and communicates with other meeting participants to just interrupt us all for the meeting at good times? Yeah its NP hard, but for small groups not that expensive anyway. It certainly helps manage the rift between the maker schedule and the manager schedule.
Before we had computers to keep track of time and give us notifications there was a good need for us to know what time it was, so we could manually track our synchronized events - automation or outsourcing it was prohibitively expensive for a lot of purposes. Now we can move most of that clock tracking to easy, cheap, and convenient tools and live a more event driven lifestyle without losing the major benefits of worrying about what time it is. Sure there are still a few times it becomes a thing - scheduling meetings for later, figuring priorities based on deadlines, wondering if i have enough time to get into something before scheduled events, but outside these planning moments, most of the concern need no be there.
Here is the really neat thing IMHO - as we all move into this event driven paradigm, the clock may not even be the big source of synchronization.. A lot of my meetings are not decided because "this is the perfect time for it", but on "we are all available". Ok great, that means most of my meetings are pretty fungible on when they can happen. So why not put a flag on those meetings, with a reasonable priority and set of boundaries on specific times... then have a piece of software that learns my activities to figure out when I am most interruptible, and communicates with other meeting participants to just interrupt us all for the meeting at good times? Yeah its NP hard, but for small groups not that expensive anyway. It certainly helps manage the rift between the maker schedule and the manager schedule.
I agree it is a significant exception. For what other reason would one want to know the time other than to know that you have a commitment to be somewhere or to do something? That's the whole point of a shared, synchronized system we call "time". I think I'll write about "Living without a Car - (Except for When I Want to Go Somewhere)".
EDIT: Upon further reflection now I think I get it. It's not that Steve is living without time, but more accurately he's living without clocks. There's a subtle but important difference.
EDIT: Upon further reflection now I think I get it. It's not that Steve is living without time, but more accurately he's living without clocks. There's a subtle but important difference.
Yes, I like your distinction. It's essentially changing your relationship with time from being synchronous ('what time is it now?') to asynchronous ('ping! call your mother').
Which is certainly a significant change, and a welcome one at that.
Which is certainly a significant change, and a welcome one at that.
I really like this comparison.
It's a pretty reasonable exception. When I used to go on long backpacking trips, I'd ditch the watch in the bottom of my pack, but pull it out on the last day so when my ride showed up to pick me up, I didn't keep it waiting until my internal clock decided I wanted to leave. I'd still say that I was living without time.
I guess it depends on your frame. For me, it's fairly insignificant because I don't take many appointments - maybe 1 per week, tops. So it's no big deal. If I had 4 or 5 per day, well, that'd be a different story.
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I used to be slave-to-the-clock until I found work I love doing. Turns out, when I didn't love my job, I would stare at the clock all day.
Looks at clock. 7:00 I should wake up 7:15 shower 7:45 do random crap at home, stressing over clock cuz I don't wanna be late 9:00 I should be at work. 9:45 I made it. 11:00, really? okay haven't done shit all day, time to do that thing. 11:15 really. I REALLY gotta do that thing. It's 12:30 but thing isn't done. However I should go to lunch. 1:30? Waiter, we've been sitting here for 30 min, our food isn't here, and I gotta get back to work by 2:00. 1:45 staring at clock while eating. If I leave the cafe at 2:00, I'll only be a little late.
And so on.
I have had jobs like that.
Looks at clock. 7:00 I should wake up 7:15 shower 7:45 do random crap at home, stressing over clock cuz I don't wanna be late 9:00 I should be at work. 9:45 I made it. 11:00, really? okay haven't done shit all day, time to do that thing. 11:15 really. I REALLY gotta do that thing. It's 12:30 but thing isn't done. However I should go to lunch. 1:30? Waiter, we've been sitting here for 30 min, our food isn't here, and I gotta get back to work by 2:00. 1:45 staring at clock while eating. If I leave the cafe at 2:00, I'll only be a little late.
And so on.
I have had jobs like that.
I had a horrible job once (Hard job, low pay, horrible bosses) where I spent the day basically counting time. "Ok, If I drill this hole it takes 15 seconds, so if I drill ten holes thats 150 seconds, or two minutes and 30 seconds closer to when I get to go home." The days were very very slow but when I got home I swear I merely had to blink and my free time would be up and it was time to go to bed and live in anxiety about having to repeat it the next day.
Now I am in my dream job (not much really, I am a software developer in the aircraft industry) but the day is very different. I feel just as relaxed at work as I am at home. I dont mind being at work and when I come home its very much different from before.
I dont think you stress out from looking at the clock too much. I think you looks at the clock too much because you are stressed and that heightens the stress levels.
Now I am in my dream job (not much really, I am a software developer in the aircraft industry) but the day is very different. I feel just as relaxed at work as I am at home. I dont mind being at work and when I come home its very much different from before.
I dont think you stress out from looking at the clock too much. I think you looks at the clock too much because you are stressed and that heightens the stress levels.
"Dropped my watch right into the garbage."
I washed mine by accident, left it in my trouser pocket. Been using the phone since.
"I learned how to read the sun"
My granddad did that, and the stars when visible. Maritime upbringing.
As a teacher, I need to be in the right room at the right time and it is my responsibility to manage the lesson so it finishes on time. There are other ways of organising education of course...
http://www.steinerwaldorf.org.uk/upperschool.html
...but I don't think society at large is ready for those yet.
I washed mine by accident, left it in my trouser pocket. Been using the phone since.
"I learned how to read the sun"
My granddad did that, and the stars when visible. Maritime upbringing.
As a teacher, I need to be in the right room at the right time and it is my responsibility to manage the lesson so it finishes on time. There are other ways of organising education of course...
http://www.steinerwaldorf.org.uk/upperschool.html
...but I don't think society at large is ready for those yet.
> I don’t worry about how long things take or even bother considering how long they should take
I could not help but laugh at this comment, coming from the "writer" of http://www.scalingphpbook.com/. With no significant updates or communications in months, despite promises made to the many Beta access customers, this comment made me literally laugh out loud.
Yeah Steve, we can tell.
I could not help but laugh at this comment, coming from the "writer" of http://www.scalingphpbook.com/. With no significant updates or communications in months, despite promises made to the many Beta access customers, this comment made me literally laugh out loud.
Yeah Steve, we can tell.
Not true! I respond to emails almost immediately, sent out an email two mondays ago, and have updated the GitHub repository every single day for the last 10 days. If you have beef with me, email me, but don't slander me. And, if you're unhappy, email me for a refund. Jeez.
BTW- I just checked my email to make sure I didn't miss something from you. I personally emailed you when you bought my book, thanking you. You never contacted me. Why would you air your dirty laundry here first?
BTW- I just checked my email to make sure I didn't miss something from you. I personally emailed you when you bought my book, thanking you. You never contacted me. Why would you air your dirty laundry here first?
I'm definitely not here to slander, especially since I really enjoyed the parts of the book you have completed thus far, and will recommend it to everyone scaling PHP once it's complete. You obviously know what you are talking about, and your writing is clear and concise. But come on, between that quote and the delays...
And to defend myself, I just checked, and have no emails from you since June 8th (yes that was a personal one from you which was appreciated), including in Spam. The only emails I've seen are from upset people asking what the deal is, via github comments. Perhaps there is some problem with the emailing system? Is there some other newsletter link I missed?
And again just to reiterate, the content of the book so far is great, and I will recommend it, however I know I am not the only upset customer.
And to defend myself, I just checked, and have no emails from you since June 8th (yes that was a personal one from you which was appreciated), including in Spam. The only emails I've seen are from upset people asking what the deal is, via github comments. Perhaps there is some problem with the emailing system? Is there some other newsletter link I missed?
And again just to reiterate, the content of the book so far is great, and I will recommend it, however I know I am not the only upset customer.
I'll send you an email and we can figure it out - I email pretty regularly. I wonder if you have an older copy of the book, too.
Though interesting, the article should more accurately be titled "Living Without Clocks". Mr. Corona still uses time to synchronize activities with others but does not use a clock.
For me, a clock is invaluable. I'd much rather simply look at the clock than have reminders pinging off of events which occur at the same time daily. But I can see how one wouldn't really know which works better for them until trying each way.
For me, a clock is invaluable. I'd much rather simply look at the clock than have reminders pinging off of events which occur at the same time daily. But I can see how one wouldn't really know which works better for them until trying each way.
The author replaced his watch with the sun (a coarser way to estimate time), and used his smartphone's calendar to alert him in time for events.
While its probably a good thing to minimize staring at the clock, possibly stressing yourself, it seems more like "living without constantly watching the time" instead of "living without time", which would be substantially harder (and IMHO, of doubtful benefit)
While its probably a good thing to minimize staring at the clock, possibly stressing yourself, it seems more like "living without constantly watching the time" instead of "living without time", which would be substantially harder (and IMHO, of doubtful benefit)
I appreciate the zen-like philosophical nugget.
For a more micro attempt at achieving something similar, I've recently experimented with leaving my phone at home during the day for 3-4 hour periods at a time when I go to school. A few things happen:
- I feel more calm and focused without the anxiety of another device to constantly check --> I'm better able to focus in lectures
- I surprisingly frequently pat my pocket when walking on my 20-minute commute to see if my phone's there. I notice many people outside staring into their iPhones and Android devices like zombies.
- When I return, any calls, text messages, reminders, emails, and notifications found do not really seem all that important nor urgent. Having the ability to avoid such distractions feels like positive steps in reducing impulsive behavior.
For a more micro attempt at achieving something similar, I've recently experimented with leaving my phone at home during the day for 3-4 hour periods at a time when I go to school. A few things happen:
- I feel more calm and focused without the anxiety of another device to constantly check --> I'm better able to focus in lectures
- I surprisingly frequently pat my pocket when walking on my 20-minute commute to see if my phone's there. I notice many people outside staring into their iPhones and Android devices like zombies.
- When I return, any calls, text messages, reminders, emails, and notifications found do not really seem all that important nor urgent. Having the ability to avoid such distractions feels like positive steps in reducing impulsive behavior.
Nice post. I don't wear a wristwatch and aren't too obsessed with time but it's interesting how small things do matter. Like the clock in the menu bar - after removing it I realize I've been looking at it quite a lot without thinking about it and without doubt adding a bit of stressful thoughts.
Earlier this year, I removed the clock from my toolbar. If I need to know the time, I can hit my iPad, or do a 'date' command in a terminal window. If I know that I have an impending appointment, I will run a clock app on the iPad.
I don't have a cell phone, and after I put my pocket watch through the laundry, I don't carry a watch either.
Unfortunately, as a software developer, pretty much every day is perforated with meetings, and as a bus commuter, I am locked to various schedules, so I can't quite go timeless.
I don't have a cell phone, and after I put my pocket watch through the laundry, I don't carry a watch either.
Unfortunately, as a software developer, pretty much every day is perforated with meetings, and as a bus commuter, I am locked to various schedules, so I can't quite go timeless.
Actually, he does not live without time, as he looks at the sun to know the time of the day and know if he's done working for the day. He might live without a clock, but then I think the clock is a human technology that has to be mastered, like a lot of other technologies like mobile phone, email,... Don't be the slave of these technologies. Master them so you don't have to ignore them.
This is such a beautiful concept - in this over-scheduled world we're not giving ourselves as much space to foster creativity and reflect.
The last sentence makes it clear that he is not living without time; he's living with time defined by organic rhythms of his body and the environment instead of time defined by the rhythms of machines. It sounds like something I would like to try.
Beautiful. Trying this starting today!
Easing into it, though, just removing the clock on my laptop... still have flights to catch etc.
Easing into it, though, just removing the clock on my laptop... still have flights to catch etc.
I did this years ago. Works wonders. Watches are for suckers.
I quite like my watch, so instead I just don't worry about the time. I find it easy enough to know what the time is and just ignore it anyway :)
Why waste your life knowing something you are going to ignore? This is the most poisonous kind of doublethink.
I know quite a lot of things which I ignore on a regular basis, such as the knowledge that I suck at playing the ukulele; but I ignore that knowledge and abuse that instrument daily.
For the lunch example, I tell people that I'd love to do it, so please text me the morning of and I'll let you know if I can make it. That answer is (1) more realistic, and (2) more flexible.
You can do this for meetings, too. Rather than immediately setting up a "2pm brainstorming session," tell them that you'll email over your thoughts and ideas sometime tomorrow.
I really don't understand how scheduling fixed-time appointments became the natural order. Challenge that assumption and you'll be amazed at how it impacts life for the better.