Trump signs order to criminally charge those who burn US flag in protest(theguardian.com)
theguardian.com
Trump signs order to criminally charge those who burn US flag in protest
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/aug/25/trump-flag-burning-executive-order
8 comments
Sign away. This is already settled case law. It's just further proof that this administration is all theater and offers nothing of substance.
There is no such thing as settled case law anymore.
There is only what the John Birch Society and Heritage Foundation tell the Supreme Court to do.
There is only what the John Birch Society and Heritage Foundation tell the Supreme Court to do.
The reasoning behind Roe v. Wade was controversial from day one. Texas v. Johnson is much more straightforward and doesn't suffer from controversy. United States V. Eichman re-affirmed the ruling. This is going to be extremely tough to weasel out of without giving the game away that the United States is now fully embracing authoritarianism.
> This is going to be extremely tough to weasel out of without giving the game away that the United States is now fully embracing authoritarianism.
We’re at the point of mobilizing military forces for civilian law enforcement on transparently fictitious formal rationales; the full embrace of authoritarianism in the US is out in the open.
We’re at the point of mobilizing military forces for civilian law enforcement on transparently fictitious formal rationales; the full embrace of authoritarianism in the US is out in the open.
> without giving the game away that the United States is now fully embracing authoritarianism.
The multiple civil suits that Trump is engaging in as president against pollsters and news organizations for saying things he doesn't like, the arrests + deportation of foreigners for protesting Israel, and the targeting of law firms who represent people opposing the administration don't already indicate this? Going after flag burning just further confirms that we're slowly but surely embracing authoritarianism.
The multiple civil suits that Trump is engaging in as president against pollsters and news organizations for saying things he doesn't like, the arrests + deportation of foreigners for protesting Israel, and the targeting of law firms who represent people opposing the administration don't already indicate this? Going after flag burning just further confirms that we're slowly but surely embracing authoritarianism.
Well, those indicate that Trump is fully embracing authoritarianism. Whether the court system lets him go... they're going further than I like, but I hold out hope that they may stop him short, no matter how much he wants to go there.
I hope for the same thing, but it's still sad to see the point we've reached where some people actively cheer these actions on or don't treat them with the seriousness they deserve.
Really, the Federalist Society is more relevant than either of the groups you name, but...
Within minutes it seems we already have comments claiming that this is pointless because it's already what the law says, and also implying that this is pointless because it disagrees with the law and will therefore be reverted by the judicial branch.
These clearly can't both be true... ?
At any rate, for those who wish for this action to be legal, do you feel the same way about the flags of other countries? Why or why not?
These clearly can't both be true... ?
At any rate, for those who wish for this action to be legal, do you feel the same way about the flags of other countries? Why or why not?
> Within minutes it seems we already have comments claiming that this is pointless because it's already what the law says, and also implying that this is pointless because it disagrees with the law and will therefore be reverted by the judicial branch.
I don't see anyone claiming that the law already provides for this punishment, every post on the existing law says this conflicts with it, explicitly or, in one case, implicitly. Are you perhaps misreading the “settled case law” post which does rely on the reader knowing the existing case law?
> These clearly can't both be true... ?
It is in conflict with existing Constitutional case law, but those claiming it is a nullity with no significance for that reason are nonetheless incorrect both because quite a lot of damage can be done before courts act and because there is no guarantee of how the current Supreme Court will act just because the existing case law is clear.
And, frankly, because the present administration, when it wants to punish without legal basis, doesn't just fold when the courts strike down what it is doing, but shifts theoretical basis and continues applying punishment.
I don't see anyone claiming that the law already provides for this punishment, every post on the existing law says this conflicts with it, explicitly or, in one case, implicitly. Are you perhaps misreading the “settled case law” post which does rely on the reader knowing the existing case law?
> These clearly can't both be true... ?
It is in conflict with existing Constitutional case law, but those claiming it is a nullity with no significance for that reason are nonetheless incorrect both because quite a lot of damage can be done before courts act and because there is no guarantee of how the current Supreme Court will act just because the existing case law is clear.
And, frankly, because the present administration, when it wants to punish without legal basis, doesn't just fold when the courts strike down what it is doing, but shifts theoretical basis and continues applying punishment.
> Are you perhaps misreading the “settled case law” post which does rely on the reader knowing the existing case law?
Apparently.
Apparently.
> do you feel the same way about the flags of other countries
Do I need to be respectful of enemy's flag?
Do I need to be respectful of enemy's flag?
This one kind of smells like Trump throwing a bone to the court and feeding his base's persecution complex. I highly doubt that he actually cares about flag burning. The court can rule against him here (answering the criticism that they always rule in Trump's favor). Then he can tell his people that the court is biased against him.
I'm not usually the kind of person to speculate about hidden motives like this. Frankly I think this kind of move is usually too uncertain to make sense. It could always just be one of his frequent semi-random actions like renaming the Gulf of Mexico. If I assume it's a considered action, though, I can't come up with another explanation for it.
I'm not usually the kind of person to speculate about hidden motives like this. Frankly I think this kind of move is usually too uncertain to make sense. It could always just be one of his frequent semi-random actions like renaming the Gulf of Mexico. If I assume it's a considered action, though, I can't come up with another explanation for it.
It consumes finite attention that might otherwise remain on the Epstein files and Trump's involvement with the exploitation of minors.
it's a pretty blatant violation of free speech, but murica doesn't care bout that now that their speech is dominant
Aside from sneering, this does not answer the question.
Just do the same as the great britain BSI: forbid the sale of burnable flags.
When the brexit happened quite a few tried to burn them.
This is a big waste of money and time. But the courts will set it straight in a few months.
Guardrails won't always hold. The Supreme Court is stacked with Trump appointees. That, and they don't have any real enforcement power anyway.
No, this is a bridge too far. The Supremes won't let him pull this off. Free speech is too strong in the USA.
As a child I understood objects such as flags, books (Koran, Bible, Torah, Vedas, Buddhist Canons, SICP, etc.) could be used as symbols. Some people seem to believe that burning a flag is just as good as burning what it represents. I know that's not true and indeed is laughable. But if someone believes so and they act in a way (e.g., burn a flag) that is harmless and reduces their internal stresses, then that is good.
For example, if we could end all terrorism plots in the USA by letting people burn flags every week, it would be well worthwhile.
Also, believers are easy to manipulate: burn or piss on a beloved symbol and they can become mindlessly enraged and persuaded to do foolish things.
Trump's moves are largely symbolic:
- to lock in support from those who find burning the American flag to be unpatriotic (there's lots of them),
- to frighten those for whom burning the American flag is a sign of defiance or rebellion. This is a broad set of groups ranging from radical left-wingers to American Al-Queda and Intifada,
- to make it clear to everyone what he feels about the issue.
As a child I understood objects such as flags, books (Koran, Bible, Torah, Vedas, Buddhist Canons, SICP, etc.) could be used as symbols. Some people seem to believe that burning a flag is just as good as burning what it represents. I know that's not true and indeed is laughable. But if someone believes so and they act in a way (e.g., burn a flag) that is harmless and reduces their internal stresses, then that is good.
For example, if we could end all terrorism plots in the USA by letting people burn flags every week, it would be well worthwhile.
Also, believers are easy to manipulate: burn or piss on a beloved symbol and they can become mindlessly enraged and persuaded to do foolish things.
Trump's moves are largely symbolic:
- to lock in support from those who find burning the American flag to be unpatriotic (there's lots of them),
- to frighten those for whom burning the American flag is a sign of defiance or rebellion. This is a broad set of groups ranging from radical left-wingers to American Al-Queda and Intifada,
- to make it clear to everyone what he feels about the issue.
Trump literally cannot sign an executive order to criminalize anything. Executive orders just instruct his branch to take some action. Congress still has to pass the law.
You know the best thing about all of these executive orders? It allows a future president to literally wipe out every single order with a single order nullifying them. He's making it rather simple to delete his entire legacy.
You know the best thing about all of these executive orders? It allows a future president to literally wipe out every single order with a single order nullifying them. He's making it rather simple to delete his entire legacy.
Too many in society and the courts have forgotten than most executive "orders" are/were executive wishes rather than tinpot dictator decrees.
Banning flag burning will be thrown out again. [1] Whats more this is in conflict with the proper means of destroying a damaged flag. [2][k]
(k) The flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning.
Also as an American and a US Veteran of the armed forces I support the right to burn a flag and not be shot for it. If anything it shows the strength and resilience of a country to support dissent rather than fearing it. Governments built on a house of cards fear dissent. For those opposing flag burning, be happy your dissenters are self identifying. The bigger threats are often silent. If a person really hates a country they reside in then they should leave it as soon as possible and never return otherwise they are just throwing a tantrum or seeking attention. Have some comfort in knowing these people are likely just sheep that have been manipulated by online agent provocateurs to sow division as part of Fifth Generation Warfare (5GW) [3].
If people are lighting fires without a burn permit one can and should use a fire extinguisher to put out the fire. Fire safety starts with you.
[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_desecration#United_States
[2] - https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/4/8
[3] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth-generation_warfare
(k) The flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning.
Also as an American and a US Veteran of the armed forces I support the right to burn a flag and not be shot for it. If anything it shows the strength and resilience of a country to support dissent rather than fearing it. Governments built on a house of cards fear dissent. For those opposing flag burning, be happy your dissenters are self identifying. The bigger threats are often silent. If a person really hates a country they reside in then they should leave it as soon as possible and never return otherwise they are just throwing a tantrum or seeking attention. Have some comfort in knowing these people are likely just sheep that have been manipulated by online agent provocateurs to sow division as part of Fifth Generation Warfare (5GW) [3].
If people are lighting fires without a burn permit one can and should use a fire extinguisher to put out the fire. Fire safety starts with you.
[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_desecration#United_States
[2] - https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/4/8
[3] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth-generation_warfare
Really? Why is my first impulse to go out and burn a flag in protest?
Because they want you to take the bait for news clips for Fox and OAN
Think hard about the psychology there. You want to burn it because he told you not to. You want to burn it to declare your autonomy from his authority. But burning it is a symbol of hate of our country, not Trump. Perhaps he knows this, and perhaps that’s exactly how he wants you to act.
IAmGraydon says >But burning it is a symbol of hate of our country<
No. You don't know what the symbol means to any other person than you. And there is no absolute meaning of a symbol.
You are one person in a world of billions, each with their own symbols and interpretations.
Burning a flag could be done for an infinite number of reasons. It could be a constructive ritual that ensures "purification", or "cleansing" or even "betterment" as in a metaphor with wrought iron wherein the heat and pounding shapes and strengthens the metal.
Some Chinese burn goods (and paper models of goods) to send them to their dead ancestors.
Symbolic behavior is incredibly complex.
No. You don't know what the symbol means to any other person than you. And there is no absolute meaning of a symbol.
You are one person in a world of billions, each with their own symbols and interpretations.
Burning a flag could be done for an infinite number of reasons. It could be a constructive ritual that ensures "purification", or "cleansing" or even "betterment" as in a metaphor with wrought iron wherein the heat and pounding shapes and strengthens the metal.
Some Chinese burn goods (and paper models of goods) to send them to their dead ancestors.
Symbolic behavior is incredibly complex.
No, I have the urge to burn it because America - the America I love - is dead, or at least dying.
I love an America that has free speech, including burning the flag. That America is dead, assassinated by the President.
I love an America that has rule of law, not rule by executive order. That America is dead, killed by Congressional incompetence and pettiness.
I love an America where the President has limits on his power. That America is dead, killed by judicial inaction.
I have the urge to burn a flag to say: This? This thing that you are turning the country into? This is not America.
I love an America that has free speech, including burning the flag. That America is dead, assassinated by the President.
I love an America that has rule of law, not rule by executive order. That America is dead, killed by Congressional incompetence and pettiness.
I love an America where the President has limits on his power. That America is dead, killed by judicial inaction.
I have the urge to burn a flag to say: This? This thing that you are turning the country into? This is not America.
> Perhaps he knows this, and perhaps that’s exactly how he wants you to act.
Attributing "4D chess" to Trump's actions is tiresome.
Attributing "4D chess" to Trump's actions is tiresome.