Kickstarter Project Pebble Leaves Backers Hanging(inc.com)
inc.com
Kickstarter Project Pebble Leaves Backers Hanging
http://www.inc.com/john-mcdermott/kickstarter-pebble-leaves-backers-hanging.html
45 comments
> 4. Backers of the project weren't ordering anything, and are naive if they think they were. Anybody know the Latin for "backer beware"?
Kickstartus misleadum.
Kickstarter does not make it clear that the users are "backing" and that it's not guaranteed they will deliver. As you can see from the comments mentioned in the article (and the comments on the Kickstarter "comments" section of the pebble project) it seems a lot of people think they're pre-ordering and not "backing".
This is all that Kickstarter includes on the backing page: http://i.imgur.com/WQlBU.png
Kickstartus misleadum.
Kickstarter does not make it clear that the users are "backing" and that it's not guaranteed they will deliver. As you can see from the comments mentioned in the article (and the comments on the Kickstarter "comments" section of the pebble project) it seems a lot of people think they're pre-ordering and not "backing".
This is all that Kickstarter includes on the backing page: http://i.imgur.com/WQlBU.png
How is it misleading? It's called a pledge, not a purchase.
From the page: How do I pledge? (It doesn't say: How do I buy?)
You pledge because you'd like to see the project exist, not because you need a watch. It just so happens that if you pledged enough, they would also send you a watch. I personally never look at the deadlines for Kickstarter projects - they are at best estimates. I don't know when my Pebble will arrive, but I know that it will eventually.
All of this hype is way overblown. We're not talking Duke Nukem Forever here.
From the page: How do I pledge? (It doesn't say: How do I buy?)
You pledge because you'd like to see the project exist, not because you need a watch. It just so happens that if you pledged enough, they would also send you a watch. I personally never look at the deadlines for Kickstarter projects - they are at best estimates. I don't know when my Pebble will arrive, but I know that it will eventually.
All of this hype is way overblown. We're not talking Duke Nukem Forever here.
>> "Kickstarter does not make it clear that the users are "backing" and that it's not guaranteed they will deliver."
In this modern world of litigation, they have to say it.
But come on, do they really have to say it??
A single ounce of common sense would tell you that this is inherently a risky proposition. I really can't sympathize with backers who did not prepare themselves for the possibility that not all business ventures are successful and deliver on time, regardless of their prior experience.
In this modern world of litigation, they have to say it.
But come on, do they really have to say it??
A single ounce of common sense would tell you that this is inherently a risky proposition. I really can't sympathize with backers who did not prepare themselves for the possibility that not all business ventures are successful and deliver on time, regardless of their prior experience.
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Where in the comments? Am I looking at the right ones?
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/597507018/pebble-e-paper...
I can find some from like 3 weeks ago, mainly one guy 'Graeme' who seems to have changed his name to 'Grrr' while everyone else is saying, 'no, Graeme, they said it was best case'. All the other comments seem upbeat and excited.
Also it's not really comments in the article, it's a singular comment and a singular cherry-picked quote from the kickstarter comments, as in two. With no mention of the encouragement comments.
The quote is from one guy Joshua Hernandez who seems to have been featured in this author's articles before.
Seems it was a slow news day for the author and he picked a story out of his back pocket. I wouldn't call this a balanced piece. And no quote from the company.
Also check the recent AMA, is there major outrage there? Is perhaps the shipping date drama the most u/ved question?
http://www.reddit.com/r/pebble/comments/y7pki/august_ama_ask...
No.
I'm not a backer or affiliated in any way what so ever. But are lots of people blowing their lid over this as the article suggests?
No.
Are people upvoting this story out of some sort of weird Schadenfreude.
Probably.
This story kinda has a smell to it. It's a bit like code smell. One guy quoted over and over. Check. No company quote. Check. No real evidence. Check.
Stinky!
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/597507018/pebble-e-paper...
I can find some from like 3 weeks ago, mainly one guy 'Graeme' who seems to have changed his name to 'Grrr' while everyone else is saying, 'no, Graeme, they said it was best case'. All the other comments seem upbeat and excited.
Also it's not really comments in the article, it's a singular comment and a singular cherry-picked quote from the kickstarter comments, as in two. With no mention of the encouragement comments.
The quote is from one guy Joshua Hernandez who seems to have been featured in this author's articles before.
Seems it was a slow news day for the author and he picked a story out of his back pocket. I wouldn't call this a balanced piece. And no quote from the company.
Also check the recent AMA, is there major outrage there? Is perhaps the shipping date drama the most u/ved question?
http://www.reddit.com/r/pebble/comments/y7pki/august_ama_ask...
No.
I'm not a backer or affiliated in any way what so ever. But are lots of people blowing their lid over this as the article suggests?
No.
Are people upvoting this story out of some sort of weird Schadenfreude.
Probably.
This story kinda has a smell to it. It's a bit like code smell. One guy quoted over and over. Check. No company quote. Check. No real evidence. Check.
Stinky!
That text in that image seems pretty clear to me.
Pre-ordering and backing are the same thing, else what is the point of rewards and a 100% funds raised threshold?
Re 4: In Kickstarter's terms, it says Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill.
It would be very hard work to actually enforce this but Kickstarter does at least set the expectation that payment == reward.
It would be very hard work to actually enforce this but Kickstarter does at least set the expectation that payment == reward.
They cannot possibly have made that claim in good faith.
The most likely scenario for a project that cannot deliver is that they ran out of funds before that had fulfilled all of the orders. By that time there is no money left to refund.
The most likely scenario for a project that cannot deliver is that they ran out of funds before that had fulfilled all of the orders. By that time there is no money left to refund.
Aaand you'd better hope the project formed some kind of entity with limited liability...
#4 is a BIG issue with Kickstarter and similar platforms. Especially if something get as "big" as Pebble. People read a blog and think "hey cool, I can pre-order it!". They don't even know what they're doing.
I agree with 1-3 but "Backers of the project weren't ordering anything" is just plain wrong.
> 1. It's a new product and a new team.
The same team made the inPulse watch: http://www.getinpulse.com/
The same team made the inPulse watch: http://www.getinpulse.com/
Ironically, they have a "Preorder on Kickstarter" button on their page.
So even the projects are keeping the backer/buyer confusion alive.
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If I were in charge of Kickstarter, I'd have an Czar Of Managed Expectations hired specifically to work with high profile projects.
I'd ask that person to talk to the folks at the big projects on a very regular basis (at least weekly) and help them manage the expectations of the backers. I'd advise them on how to update and to keep the communication lines very very open. I'd use this to apply very light pressure to the projects to keep things moving and to tell the backers what's happening.
Heck, I'd try to help the big projects hook up with experienced mentors to help solve their problems.
I'd do this because the entire success of Kickstarter depends on it happening, and I would under no circumstances leave it to people who hit the KS lottery to figure it out on their own.
I'd ask that person to talk to the folks at the big projects on a very regular basis (at least weekly) and help them manage the expectations of the backers. I'd advise them on how to update and to keep the communication lines very very open. I'd use this to apply very light pressure to the projects to keep things moving and to tell the backers what's happening.
Heck, I'd try to help the big projects hook up with experienced mentors to help solve their problems.
I'd do this because the entire success of Kickstarter depends on it happening, and I would under no circumstances leave it to people who hit the KS lottery to figure it out on their own.
This is the one Kickstarter project that I was really interested in as to how it turned out.
Going from 1000 watches to 100,000 watches is a huge undertaking, and requires a lot of special skillsets. 1000 watches you could probably do by yourself with some friends that you hire, but 100,000 requires a factory, and a whole different set of skills.
Their product looks really cool and I hope that they succeed, but my speculation to my friends was that they might be the victim of their own success. It might be the case that maybe they should have capped their first set of orders at 1000, and then slowly build out their capacity while learning from their mistakes, but now with their high-profile Kickstarter campaign and $12M, people might not give them a second chance if they encounter big problems.
Going from 1000 watches to 100,000 watches is a huge undertaking, and requires a lot of special skillsets. 1000 watches you could probably do by yourself with some friends that you hire, but 100,000 requires a factory, and a whole different set of skills.
Their product looks really cool and I hope that they succeed, but my speculation to my friends was that they might be the victim of their own success. It might be the case that maybe they should have capped their first set of orders at 1000, and then slowly build out their capacity while learning from their mistakes, but now with their high-profile Kickstarter campaign and $12M, people might not give them a second chance if they encounter big problems.
Unfortunately, Pebble's 85,000 backers who prepaid for a Pebble have no legal recourse to receive a refund.
That's not true. In Kickstarter's terms of service it states:
Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill.
Now, the tricky part is I don't believe there's a time limitation placed on this, but jumping up and down the very same month they expected to release is far from practical. In a year? There's a serious case to answer.
That's not true. In Kickstarter's terms of service it states:
Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill.
Now, the tricky part is I don't believe there's a time limitation placed on this, but jumping up and down the very same month they expected to release is far from practical. In a year? There's a serious case to answer.
The claim that backers have "no legal recourse" is a misstatement, but it doesn't change the de facto outcome.
Ok, so Kickstarter says the creators are required to refund upon failure. This provides legal recourse. So what? You can't take money from someone who has none. What are the chances that the project creator is sitting on the $10 million, or even a fraction of it?
The problem for Kickstarter today is the same as it was on day one. Many of their customers believe that they are pre-ordering a product, not investing in a start-up. The Kickstarter ecosystem operates on confidence. I'm not sure anyone can accurately model that confidence economy, because Kickstarter is a very new idea.
I can say this though: failed projects will erode confidence that must be rebuilt in order to obtain new backers. The rate of erosion versus build-up of new confidence levels will define the success or failure of Kickstarter over the long term, and I don't think it would be overstating to say that confidence tends to erode far more quickly than it can be built.
Ok, so Kickstarter says the creators are required to refund upon failure. This provides legal recourse. So what? You can't take money from someone who has none. What are the chances that the project creator is sitting on the $10 million, or even a fraction of it?
The problem for Kickstarter today is the same as it was on day one. Many of their customers believe that they are pre-ordering a product, not investing in a start-up. The Kickstarter ecosystem operates on confidence. I'm not sure anyone can accurately model that confidence economy, because Kickstarter is a very new idea.
I can say this though: failed projects will erode confidence that must be rebuilt in order to obtain new backers. The rate of erosion versus build-up of new confidence levels will define the success or failure of Kickstarter over the long term, and I don't think it would be overstating to say that confidence tends to erode far more quickly than it can be built.
They also say:
Kickstarter is under no obligation to become involved in disputes between any Users, or between Users and any third party. This includes, but is not limited to, delivery of goods and services, and any other terms, conditions, warranties, or representations associated with campaigns on the Site.
Kickstarter is under no obligation to become involved in disputes between any Users, or between Users and any third party. This includes, but is not limited to, delivery of goods and services, and any other terms, conditions, warranties, or representations associated with campaigns on the Site.
Sure, and that makes it a lot harder. But it's like the Federal Reserve isn't responsible if I pay cash for something and a vendor screws me over. The beef is between customer and vendor.
I don't know about the US, but here in the UK it's not difficult to take someone to small claims court and this TOS would work pretty well in the claimant's favor.
I don't know about the US, but here in the UK it's not difficult to take someone to small claims court and this TOS would work pretty well in the claimant's favor.
(http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/schuyler/lockpicks-by-op...)
Successful in September 2010. Still no product shipped. Very unhappy backers, and actually a sad story for entrepreneur.
Successful in September 2010. Still no product shipped. Very unhappy backers, and actually a sad story for entrepreneur.
Reading the 'takeover' [1] and all following posts, I have
- no idea why people can get worked up that much
- the general impression that your case sucks, it's late but _even now_ in hands that try to fulfill all promises
But yeah, the 'backers' are really disgusting in that project.
1: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/schuyler/lockpicks-by-op...
- no idea why people can get worked up that much
- the general impression that your case sucks, it's late but _even now_ in hands that try to fulfill all promises
But yeah, the 'backers' are really disgusting in that project.
1: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/schuyler/lockpicks-by-op...
I find it amazing that people think kickstarter is like Amazon, and talk about "orders" - the person being interviewed talked about "canceling their order" - there is a reason why you are considered a "backer" and not a "customer". Kickstarter backers should fund a project with the understanding they are trying to encourage people to do cool things, and that their is better than even chance nothing whatsoever will come of the project. Then, the rare time that something gets delivered - it is a pleasant surprise. I was shocked when I actually got an elevation dock that was, if anything, better than what was described. I really don't think the planetary annihilation guys will be able to build what they say they are - but wow, if they do, money very, very well spent...
Kickstarter backers should fund a project with the understanding they are trying to encourage people to do cool things, and that their is better than even chance nothing whatsoever will come of the project. Then, the rare time that something gets delivered - it is a pleasant surprise.
Maybe that's how people should approach Kickstarted, but that's certainly not how the majority of Kickstarters projects are presented to their backers.
Almost every funding level I've seen for any project on Kickstarter says, "If you give $X and we reach the funding goal, you get Y. If you give $X and we don't reach the funding goal, you get $X back." None of them say, "If you give $X and we reach the funding goal, you might get Y if it turns out we can come up with a business plan that fits the amount of money raised."
I agree that Kickstarter isn't Amazon, but they (and the project creators) do a generally piss poor job of making sure the customers (backers) understand that going into the project.
Maybe that's how people should approach Kickstarted, but that's certainly not how the majority of Kickstarters projects are presented to their backers.
Almost every funding level I've seen for any project on Kickstarter says, "If you give $X and we reach the funding goal, you get Y. If you give $X and we don't reach the funding goal, you get $X back." None of them say, "If you give $X and we reach the funding goal, you might get Y if it turns out we can come up with a business plan that fits the amount of money raised."
I agree that Kickstarter isn't Amazon, but they (and the project creators) do a generally piss poor job of making sure the customers (backers) understand that going into the project.
Yes, the fact that there are so many Kickstarter backers who think they've "ordered" a watch is completely intentional, and is really the main reason behind Kickstarter's success. This group of underinformed consumers is the engine behind Kickstarter, and is a great boon for the successful projects, at a cost to the people who unwittingly back failed projects.
It's not even slightly amazing. Kickstarter terms dictate that "backers" are supposed to get any products listed in the description or a refund.
In fact, Kickstarter is most easily compared to pre-ordering a product that is under development. It's not even similar to investing since you are not getting ownership in the company. In your case, I suppose you could liken it to philanthropy which also sounds incorrect.
In fact, Kickstarter is most easily compared to pre-ordering a product that is under development. It's not even similar to investing since you are not getting ownership in the company. In your case, I suppose you could liken it to philanthropy which also sounds incorrect.
This is nothing. The Orbit reached its funding goal in October 2011. Still haven't received anything, and still no ship date.
Anyone who has worked in hardware knows how incredibly difficult it is. Your manufacturers will constantly make mistakes which cause unexpected delays. Give these guys a break.
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/832784035/orbit-a-swivel...
Anyone who has worked in hardware knows how incredibly difficult it is. Your manufacturers will constantly make mistakes which cause unexpected delays. Give these guys a break.
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/832784035/orbit-a-swivel...
I backed Zioneyez for $150 on 6/6/11 ($343K Kickstarter) and still don't have them: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/zioneyez/eyeztm-by-zione...
The way to fix this is to do all your "backing" (which is actually pre-ordering, no matter what clever wordplay KS tries to apply) on an Amex, where chargebacks are decided by default in your favor and they go after the merchant on your behalf.
I backed a failed project, where the creator indicated they'd spent the money on something else (!), and that they weren't going to issue refunds. A 5-minute call to American Express later and I had my money back.
I backed a failed project, where the creator indicated they'd spent the money on something else (!), and that they weren't going to issue refunds. A 5-minute call to American Express later and I had my money back.
Would be interested in the name of that project, specific examples are much better than hypotheticals.
Their website (getpebble.com) states that they will ship in "early 2013".
That's for pre-ordered Pebbles, e.g. the "second" charge after all Kickstarter Bakers got theirs.
Surely a lot of these problems would be solved by having a 'backing ceiling' - once this amount is reached, that's it, no more pledges accepted. It seems to me this would stimulate funding (so people feel they won't 'miss out') and also avoid the problem where suddenly someone has way more money than they wanted, and hence has to address production (of physical objects) in a completely different manner. Sometimes too much money (and hence responsibility) can be a curse.
Ouya had a ceiling: in the beginning there were a limited number of rewards on every tier shipping hardware. But most projects would probably do what Ouya did: keep increasing the ceiling amount, giving the impression of scarcity to drive demand.
I may be beating a dead horse here, but I anticipate a similar outcome for the Ouya. Missed ship date after missed ship date.
To be fair, Ouya hasn't missed any ship date yet and are backed by real investors too and a team of industry professionals. Plus their hardware is pretty common (tegra3+ARM chip). So let's give them a chance for now.
The fact that people equate a KickStarter backing to a product order is ridiculous.
When you back a project on KickStarter, you are taking a risk on a team, and you can't go in with the expectation that all will go according to plan. If you don;t have the appetite for risk, wait for the post-kickstarter retail launch.
When you back a project on KickStarter, you are taking a risk on a team, and you can't go in with the expectation that all will go according to plan. If you don;t have the appetite for risk, wait for the post-kickstarter retail launch.
> "I don't know where I could go and cancel [my order],"
Doesn't that highlight a pretty broad dichotomy between what users are paying for and what they think they're paying for? As far as my understanding go, you fund something in the hope for an outcome (a clock, say), you don't place an order.
Doesn't that highlight a pretty broad dichotomy between what users are paying for and what they think they're paying for? As far as my understanding go, you fund something in the hope for an outcome (a clock, say), you don't place an order.
As far as my understanding go, you fund something in the hope for an outcome (a clock, say), you don't place an order.
Kickstarter's T&Cs clearly set the expectation that you are placing an order. For example:
Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill.
However, the issue is between the customer and the project creator as Kickstarter conveniently extricates themselves from the situation in the T&Cs (and chargebacks could be difficult since the payment is going through Amazon and Kickstarter who may not have violated the contract).
Kickstarter's T&Cs clearly set the expectation that you are placing an order. For example:
Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill.
However, the issue is between the customer and the project creator as Kickstarter conveniently extricates themselves from the situation in the T&Cs (and chargebacks could be difficult since the payment is going through Amazon and Kickstarter who may not have violated the contract).
I don't know how long Kickstarter's "hands off" approach will work, even though I understand why they don't want to get involved.
But if backers start feeling like KS is a place to take money and never deliver while KS itself turns a blind eye, they'll just slowly bleed credibility.
But what do I know. People still buy laptops on eBay, they still get scammed, eBay still refuses to do much about it. eBay still exists.
But if backers start feeling like KS is a place to take money and never deliver while KS itself turns a blind eye, they'll just slowly bleed credibility.
But what do I know. People still buy laptops on eBay, they still get scammed, eBay still refuses to do much about it. eBay still exists.
Expectations. Set them wisely.
1. It's a new product and a new team. Delays are a normal part of any ambitious project and don't necessarily mean the product won't ship.
2. For instance, consider that forecasted sales determine forecasted timelines
Their original shipping dates are based on raising a projected $100,000. At $99 for the cheapest Pebble, one can imagine that their worst case scenario was to ship roughly 1,000 Pebbles within their original timelines. Their Kickstarter actually raised over $10.25 million and consequently they are supposed to ship 85x more Pebbles than that. It's not hard to understand that such a dramatic difference in actuals vs. forecasts will result in a dramatic change in shipping time frames.
3. More importantly, constant communication from the Pebble team shows they are making steady progress (current backers have until the end of the month to make their colour selections, and in the past month their team took advantage of their 70k backers to perform free market research into desired Pebble colours, which is a wise business decision); I really don't see much to objectively worry about.
4. Backers of the project weren't ordering anything, and are naive if they think they were. Anybody know the Latin for "backer beware"?