Ask HN: Could the C64 startup screen have encouraged more users to learn BASIC?
6 comments
Quite to the contrary, the C64 instantly booting into what was both an operating system and a readily accessible programming environment to start creating with right away already was an immensely powerful concept - an empty canvas to fill with your own creations.
I wrote about this subject in more detail here: https://bjoernkw.com/2016/03/13/load81/
I wrote about this subject in more detail here: https://bjoernkw.com/2016/03/13/load81/
Starting with a program in memory would require that program to have been in ROM and then loaded into RAM on boot, but space in ROM was at a premium back in those days. However machines of that era did the next best thing, they provided some of the best computer manuals ever which focused on the use of BASIC and had plenty of examples for people to type in and play with.
Also the magazines back then had listings that you could type in (and usually then debug). They even had columns where you could write in with your problems and one of their "Experts" would provide some help or advice in a future issue. Yes you did have to wait a couple of months to see your answer in print, but seeing other people's solutions to other people's problems really helped.
Also the magazines back then had listings that you could type in (and usually then debug). They even had columns where you could write in with your problems and one of their "Experts" would provide some help or advice in a future issue. Yes you did have to wait a couple of months to see your answer in print, but seeing other people's solutions to other people's problems really helped.
Do you think this would have encouraged more users to learn BASIC programming?
No.
+ Back then everyone knew computers could be programmed…whether or not they programmed.
+ Writing Basic was not why most people turned the computer on and booting to basic would have created friction.
+ Mostly learning programming happened on the exhaust fumes of other uses of computers. Games, applications, etc. And when people bought computers to program, booting Basic would not remove a barrier. The barrier was having a computer.
The C64 was consumer electronics not a kickstarter. More people learned Basic in direct proportion to the number of C64’s sold.
No.
+ Back then everyone knew computers could be programmed…whether or not they programmed.
+ Writing Basic was not why most people turned the computer on and booting to basic would have created friction.
+ Mostly learning programming happened on the exhaust fumes of other uses of computers. Games, applications, etc. And when people bought computers to program, booting Basic would not remove a barrier. The barrier was having a computer.
The C64 was consumer electronics not a kickstarter. More people learned Basic in direct proportion to the number of C64’s sold.
Without a book? I can't imagine trying to learn Commodore BASIC on a machine that can't multitask, can barely self-document and lacks proper erroring.
The machine came with paper documentation in the box.
The User Guide had everything you needed to learn BASIC:
https://www.c64-wiki.com/wiki/Commodore_64_User%27s_Guide
https://www.c64-wiki.com/wiki/Commodore_64_User%27s_Guide
There was nothing anybody could do to offset the reversal once the IBM/Microsoft alliance resulted in removal of ROM Basic just when PC adoption was in the early skyrocketing stage.
Up until that point the main paradigm was that one of the primary things you would purchase a "personal" computer for was to program it the way you wanted. Unless you had only the most mainstream generic usage in mind, there was not published code nor commercial software to address your particular ambitions and everybody knew you would have to write your own programs.
Programming was never expected to be accomplished by everybody, rather by anybody who wanted to, whenever they felt like it.
So naturally you were supposed to always be able to buy a new computer, take it out of the box, put it on the desk and start programming. No other monkey business or friction of any kind, you just plug it in and go. Anything less would be stupid as shinola.
Of course the majority of buyers were not as ready to program as their PC's were capable, it had always been like that and of course most people got the most use out of their machines without having to write any code themselves.
But anybody anywhere was still supposed to be able to sit down at any decent computer, turn it on and start programming or continue a project any time they wanted to. Long after the box had been thrown away and the warranty had expired. Just knowing how powerful the emerging machines were getting was pretty good incentive to purchase based on expectations, even when most buyers had no programming background at all they knew that was the only way to make the PC do what they really wanted. But the widespread attitude was that once the PC was purchased, they were already so far ahead of the curve just learning how to use it for the simple stuff, it was fine for self-programming to stay on the back burner until it can be experimented with. Nobody thought writing useful programs was going to be "easy", or that just anybody would be very effective, so it made sense to approach it seriously when the time would be right and you needed it most.
Well before that attitude could be allowed to continue, the rug was pulled, making sure that no PC ever again will be like a Commodore where they are all ready-to-program right out-of-the-box using the same basic language & interface across-the-board. Who would or would not benefit the most if all PC's would have retained the inbuilt "amateur" programming language and inherent ability to frictionlessly share personal programs that came along with it?
Line numbers would have been worth it to this day :\
Up until that point the main paradigm was that one of the primary things you would purchase a "personal" computer for was to program it the way you wanted. Unless you had only the most mainstream generic usage in mind, there was not published code nor commercial software to address your particular ambitions and everybody knew you would have to write your own programs.
Programming was never expected to be accomplished by everybody, rather by anybody who wanted to, whenever they felt like it.
So naturally you were supposed to always be able to buy a new computer, take it out of the box, put it on the desk and start programming. No other monkey business or friction of any kind, you just plug it in and go. Anything less would be stupid as shinola.
Of course the majority of buyers were not as ready to program as their PC's were capable, it had always been like that and of course most people got the most use out of their machines without having to write any code themselves.
But anybody anywhere was still supposed to be able to sit down at any decent computer, turn it on and start programming or continue a project any time they wanted to. Long after the box had been thrown away and the warranty had expired. Just knowing how powerful the emerging machines were getting was pretty good incentive to purchase based on expectations, even when most buyers had no programming background at all they knew that was the only way to make the PC do what they really wanted. But the widespread attitude was that once the PC was purchased, they were already so far ahead of the curve just learning how to use it for the simple stuff, it was fine for self-programming to stay on the back burner until it can be experimented with. Nobody thought writing useful programs was going to be "easy", or that just anybody would be very effective, so it made sense to approach it seriously when the time would be right and you needed it most.
Well before that attitude could be allowed to continue, the rug was pulled, making sure that no PC ever again will be like a Commodore where they are all ready-to-program right out-of-the-box using the same basic language & interface across-the-board. Who would or would not benefit the most if all PC's would have retained the inbuilt "amateur" programming language and inherent ability to frictionlessly share personal programs that came along with it?
Line numbers would have been worth it to this day :\
Another lost opportunity was that the Mac was supposed to have BASIC, but Microsoft killed it https://folklore.org/MacBasic.html
We later got HyperCard which was fantastic, but the impression of the Mac as an appliance that you bought software for was instead of wrote it yourself was already firmly set.
We later got HyperCard which was fantastic, but the impression of the Mac as an appliance that you bought software for was instead of wrote it yourself was already firmly set.
The Vic 20 started in ROM BASIC. That’s where I learned BASIC! That and Byte magazine.
I drifted back through nostalgia and discovered Compute was the better magazine for learning code.
It could even automatically LIST and then RUN the program for you.
To avoid annoying the user, the program should just compute something, print the result, and exit without requiring any user input.
You could even have a collection of short programs in ROM, with one randomly selected each time the C64 starts up.
Do you think this would have encouraged more users to learn BASIC programming?