Ask HN: SF over NYC?
As a startup founder currently living in NYC, I'm considering a move to SF for the benefit of my company and for the tech community in general. Is SF still the startup mecca as it's always been portrayed? What are some of the pros and cons of both running and growing a startup, as well as living, in San Francisco? How does San Francisco compare to NYC as a city in general?
19 comments
One thing to recognize about San Francisco is that the tech scene is actually spread out across the whole peninsula, not just San Francisco.
While San Francisco has been experiencing a considerable renaissance (my last three companies were HQed in SF), quite a bit of the tech scene is located 30-40 miles South in Santa Clara County.
San Francisco is physically smaller than Manhattan and has about half the population. The rest of the peninsula is pretty suburban. Even in areas of SF that approach Manhattan for density, it is not NYC and it is not trying to be. If you like hyper-competitive people or any hint of pretension, look elsewhere.
That said, yes, SF's startup scene is mecca. Really. The tech density is high enough that you will see tech people literally everywhere, money flows liberally and is well over critical mass for early adopters of technology.
The biggest cons to living here are:
* As a startup, hiring is hard because the best of the best often want to start a company, have started a company or do consulting for startups. I import a lot of people from across the country.
* Microclimates mean going from a t-shirt to a coat with a twenty minute drive.
* Rent is expensive. Maybe not Manhattan expensive, but no less competitive.
* A car are necessary if you live in the peninsula because of how spread out it is.
* You'll be in an environment where there are probably 3+ other startups doing your exact same idea.
Disclosure: I'm from SF.
While San Francisco has been experiencing a considerable renaissance (my last three companies were HQed in SF), quite a bit of the tech scene is located 30-40 miles South in Santa Clara County.
San Francisco is physically smaller than Manhattan and has about half the population. The rest of the peninsula is pretty suburban. Even in areas of SF that approach Manhattan for density, it is not NYC and it is not trying to be. If you like hyper-competitive people or any hint of pretension, look elsewhere.
That said, yes, SF's startup scene is mecca. Really. The tech density is high enough that you will see tech people literally everywhere, money flows liberally and is well over critical mass for early adopters of technology.
The biggest cons to living here are:
* As a startup, hiring is hard because the best of the best often want to start a company, have started a company or do consulting for startups. I import a lot of people from across the country.
* Microclimates mean going from a t-shirt to a coat with a twenty minute drive.
* Rent is expensive. Maybe not Manhattan expensive, but no less competitive.
* A car are necessary if you live in the peninsula because of how spread out it is.
* You'll be in an environment where there are probably 3+ other startups doing your exact same idea.
Disclosure: I'm from SF.
Thanks for this reply. That was sort of the vision I had of the tech scene so I'm glad that I wan't too far from the truth. I'm not a big fan of hyper-competitive people so that's a plus. Hopefully the community out there is more, well, "communal" and tries to help everyone succeed.
Hiring in NYC is also very difficult at least from my experience from working for other startups here. Finding qualified candidates who aren't already happily employed is difficult.
I've actually heard the opposite from some friends about the necessity of a car out there. I guess that will really just come down to how I spend my time and where I need to travel.
My startup isn't unique and has a bunch of competition already so that really doesn't bother me too much. Bring it on! (Ok, maybe I'm a little competitive...)
Hiring in NYC is also very difficult at least from my experience from working for other startups here. Finding qualified candidates who aren't already happily employed is difficult.
I've actually heard the opposite from some friends about the necessity of a car out there. I guess that will really just come down to how I spend my time and where I need to travel.
My startup isn't unique and has a bunch of competition already so that really doesn't bother me too much. Bring it on! (Ok, maybe I'm a little competitive...)
Car: not necessary between SF and the East Bay. Necessary if you are in the South Bay. There are many Zipcar parking lots though, so I don't think you need to buy.
> that the tech scene is actually spread out across the whole peninsula,
Is it? I was under the impression that it started around Redwood City or Menlo Park and went south from there... and that there was also a lot in San Francisco.
Are there startups around, say, San Mateo?
Is it? I was under the impression that it started around Redwood City or Menlo Park and went south from there... and that there was also a lot in San Francisco.
Are there startups around, say, San Mateo?
As someone who made a similar move years ago, the answer is, as always: it depends.
What precisely do you expect to gain from moving? Do you already know people in SF who are well connected and can introduce you to potential investors or partners? Do you have such connections back in NYC?
Supposedly NYC is experience a tech startup renaissance, or, at least, so everyone claims over there. Have you seen evidence of this? Have you participated in it?
If you are just a founder with a laptop, a website and a movile app, but with no revenue, visitors, or users, and you are not really plugged in to the larger tech community around you in NY, then what evidence is there that you would be plugged in to the larger tech community around you in SF?
What precisely do you expect to gain from moving? Do you already know people in SF who are well connected and can introduce you to potential investors or partners? Do you have such connections back in NYC?
Supposedly NYC is experience a tech startup renaissance, or, at least, so everyone claims over there. Have you seen evidence of this? Have you participated in it?
If you are just a founder with a laptop, a website and a movile app, but with no revenue, visitors, or users, and you are not really plugged in to the larger tech community around you in NY, then what evidence is there that you would be plugged in to the larger tech community around you in SF?
I think I see the difference being that NYC is very big and tech is a very very small part of what's going on here. SF, on the other hand, is relatively small and tech is a very large part of what's going on there.
Now I could be very wrong about this, but I feel like if you're out in SF and you meet people it's somewhat likely they might be in tech where as in in NYC it's very unlikely. In NYC, you have to go out of your way to find those kinds of people, possibly going to tech events which, in my experience, sometimes feel like you're going on a blind date.
Now it's possible that I just don't know the right people in NYC, but from what I've heard from friends I have in SF, it seems like you're just more likely to run into tech people making it easier to make the right kinds of connections.
My company has business for over two years and is profitable. I'm not just a guy with a laptop and an idea. I'm just not happy with the kinds of connections I'm making in NYC nor the speed at which my company is growing. Both of these could obviously be linked to me and not my city, but I think it's worth finding out.
Now I could be very wrong about this, but I feel like if you're out in SF and you meet people it's somewhat likely they might be in tech where as in in NYC it's very unlikely. In NYC, you have to go out of your way to find those kinds of people, possibly going to tech events which, in my experience, sometimes feel like you're going on a blind date.
Now it's possible that I just don't know the right people in NYC, but from what I've heard from friends I have in SF, it seems like you're just more likely to run into tech people making it easier to make the right kinds of connections.
My company has business for over two years and is profitable. I'm not just a guy with a laptop and an idea. I'm just not happy with the kinds of connections I'm making in NYC nor the speed at which my company is growing. Both of these could obviously be linked to me and not my city, but I think it's worth finding out.
Ok. I think you might benefit from the move. You should do a trial run, though. Come out here and rent a cheap place for 3 months, and see what kind of connections you make here during that period of time.
Cheap places (and, as compared to NYC, very relaxed landlords with very easy sublet requirements) are mostly found in the East Bay. I live in Berkeley - compared to NYC and SF it is cheap and very close to downtown SF where you'll be spending most of your time networking anyway.
As far as I can tell, hiring techies here is just as bad as it is in NYC, so don't come here thinking all the programmers will line up to work for you.
Cheap places (and, as compared to NYC, very relaxed landlords with very easy sublet requirements) are mostly found in the East Bay. I live in Berkeley - compared to NYC and SF it is cheap and very close to downtown SF where you'll be spending most of your time networking anyway.
As far as I can tell, hiring techies here is just as bad as it is in NYC, so don't come here thinking all the programmers will line up to work for you.
Awesome. I'm planning on going out to visit friends the first week of September. Should help me get a sense of the city before my lease is up so I can make a slightly more informed decision.
I started my last business in SF, got acquired by a company in NYC, lived there for two years, and just moved back. I keep meaning to write a blog post about this.
NYC's tech scene wasn't bad, but it really doesn't hold a candle to what you'll find in SF.
Where SF really shines is how hospitable it is to people who are on the margins. There isn't such a wide gulf between "having a job" and "doing a startup." You'll find people all over the entrepreneurial spectrum, and it's so much easier to meet people for some reason. Having technical skills (in addition to whatever other skills you possess) makes you more respectable, not less, as it does in NYC. And everyone is so much chiller.
NYC's tech scene wasn't bad, but it really doesn't hold a candle to what you'll find in SF.
Where SF really shines is how hospitable it is to people who are on the margins. There isn't such a wide gulf between "having a job" and "doing a startup." You'll find people all over the entrepreneurial spectrum, and it's so much easier to meet people for some reason. Having technical skills (in addition to whatever other skills you possess) makes you more respectable, not less, as it does in NYC. And everyone is so much chiller.
My limited experience agrees with that, especially the difference in "proper job" / hacker gap. Imo it's partly scenes being clustered differently rather than purely what exists/doesn't. There is a lot of fringe/weird tech scene in NYC, but more clustered with the new-media art scene, and quite disconnected from the VC/startup scene. NYC Resistor seems to be making some progress towards getting interest from both crowds, but my outsider guess is that its SF analog, Noisebridge, is closer to the SF tech-biz scene than Resistor is to the NYC tech-biz scene.
Stay where you are! Don't come here! My rent's already too high! ;)
Pittsburgh FTW! Voted repeatedly[1] as one of the best places to live and it has an excellent Tech community[2].
Ciao!
[1] http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1359195/Pittsburgh-b... [1] http://www.forbes.com/2010/04/29/cities-livable-pittsburgh-l... [2] http://www.pghtech.org/ [2] http://pghtechfest.com/
Ciao!
[1] http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1359195/Pittsburgh-b... [1] http://www.forbes.com/2010/04/29/cities-livable-pittsburgh-l... [2] http://www.pghtech.org/ [2] http://pghtechfest.com/
How much do you hate winter?
Winter in SF is cold and gloomy -- it's a tough July.
Why not Boston?