Berlin's new 107,000 ft² startup factory(venturevillage.eu)
venturevillage.eu
Berlin's new 107,000 ft² startup factory
http://venturevillage.eu/the-factory-simon-schaefer
36 comments
Berlin is in Europe, so quoting the area as 10,000 m^2 (as in the original article) would have been nice. Are most HN readers really from the US?
Are most HN readers really from the US?
I ran a poll here a couple of months ago [0]. While far from being accurate, it could at least be considered somehow representative for the HN audience (it lasted more than 24h on the front page, so all time zones were covered). Even though the non-US group seems to have caught up compared to a couple of years back, the US still dominates the HN audience.
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3298905
Edit: typo
I ran a poll here a couple of months ago [0]. While far from being accurate, it could at least be considered somehow representative for the HN audience (it lasted more than 24h on the front page, so all time zones were covered). Even though the non-US group seems to have caught up compared to a couple of years back, the US still dominates the HN audience.
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3298905
Edit: typo
Circa 2009 (first Google result) non-US was 40%
http://www.mattmazur.com/2009/03/a-brief-hackernews-traffic-...
http://www.mattmazur.com/2009/03/a-brief-hackernews-traffic-...
I suspect most HN readers are from the US yes. Also, in the UK we're happy to use either feet or metres.
BACK OFF BRUSSLES! SAVE THE BRITISH FOOT! etc. etc. </sarcasm>
Or, to satisfy both crowds, the title could have had " ... 10,000 m^2 (107,000 ft^2) ... ".
Or to satisfy both crowds it could have been either, and we could have assumed that the reader is smart enough to be able to know how many square feet there are in a square metre, to within the desired accuracy.
Ten and a bit square feet to the square metre. Know it, use it, love it.
Ten and a bit square feet to the square metre. Know it, use it, love it.
Wow, that seems so obvious now! Never occurred to me before, but I love it.
Not only that, calling it "107,000 ft^2" amounts to inventing significant digits.
Yes, assuming this is broadly representative http://hackernewsers.com/pages/map.html
Can anyone name a successful startup not also located within the valley, NYC, or Boston that started from one of these coworking or incubator spaces?
Not being snarky, but it may come across that way. Just genuinely curious.
Not being snarky, but it may come across that way. Just genuinely curious.
I'm sure there's lots, but it also depends on your definition of success. Here in Chicago we've got groupon, threadless, braintree, thinkorswim, 37 signals, orbitz, and then, of course, a number of places which have cashed out to acquisitions (like feedburner).
Wooga, Soundcloud, Spreadshirt and maybe Amen come to mind (all Berlin based).
Not to name the hugely successful Samwer clones like Zalando (biggest online shoe e-commerce business in Europe, Zappos clone).
Skype was started in Europe
Is it possible to do a startup there for someone not knowing German?
I recently moved to Berlin from Denmark and it is fairly simple. Most of my problems are due do the risk of double taxation caused by EU stupidity.
You can found any type of company in Germany without having citizenship. But you will most definitely need an English speaking accountant. The forms/paperwork are only available in German and there is quite a long way from school German to understanding a discussion with the German tax authorities.
Be careful in choosing an English speaking accountant as the quality of their English abilities varies greatly. As with so many other things you get what you pay for.
The German tax authorities are generally welcoming and pleasant but you better have your papers in order and filled out correctly. Also expect to spend a considerable amount of time at the local registry. The lines are long and employees few.
If you come from outside of the EU you will probably have a more difficult time.
That being said it is not at all impossible. Berlin is a great city and lots of happenings related to start ups and development in generally takes place all the time. The German authorities realizes the value of foreigners starting companies and the have a really excellent website in English here
http://www.existenzgruender.de/englisch/self_employment/inde...
Also check out this site for a short intro
http://berlin.angloinfo.com/countries/germany/business.asp
You can found any type of company in Germany without having citizenship. But you will most definitely need an English speaking accountant. The forms/paperwork are only available in German and there is quite a long way from school German to understanding a discussion with the German tax authorities.
Be careful in choosing an English speaking accountant as the quality of their English abilities varies greatly. As with so many other things you get what you pay for.
The German tax authorities are generally welcoming and pleasant but you better have your papers in order and filled out correctly. Also expect to spend a considerable amount of time at the local registry. The lines are long and employees few.
If you come from outside of the EU you will probably have a more difficult time.
That being said it is not at all impossible. Berlin is a great city and lots of happenings related to start ups and development in generally takes place all the time. The German authorities realizes the value of foreigners starting companies and the have a really excellent website in English here
http://www.existenzgruender.de/englisch/self_employment/inde...
Also check out this site for a short intro
http://berlin.angloinfo.com/countries/germany/business.asp
> You can found any type of company in Germany without having citizenship.
Are you sure this statement is true in general? In particular, what if you don't have a EU passport?
Are you sure this statement is true in general? In particular, what if you don't have a EU passport?
Founding a company and being able to work for it are two completely different things.
e.g., you can easily start a US company regardless of your US immigration/citizenship status - but you won't be allowed to work for it (and you might be denied entry when you come to board meetings ....)
e.g., you can easily start a US company regardless of your US immigration/citizenship status - but you won't be allowed to work for it (and you might be denied entry when you come to board meetings ....)
You will get along with English just fine although you will probably miss out a little with regards to your social life.
Not sure. The expat scene seems so vast whenever I'm back in good ol' Berlin (and more so every time). Flocks of English-speaking-people-of-all-accents everywhere I look (well inside the "groovy" parts of town of course). I wouldn't imagine anyone having to miss out on social life in Berlin, at least not due to language.
I just want to add that the fact that you are going to a country with another language is potentially a major plus point. Learning a language is one of the most enriching experiences I can think of, and hackers looking for lifehacks to keep themselves challenged should look no further.
Think about it: daily life instantly becomes gamified, a game of improving your language skills. You just have to make sure you set the scene: detach yourself a bit from the expat crowd (find local roommates for example). And then you throw yourself at it, not caring that you don’t know much in the beginning.
Especially the first year is super exhilirating: the first parties where you talk but that language, the first time you do a presentation, the first time you have a lover with whom you speak this language. Because another language is really another mental space in your head, it is a bit like you get to start over and everything feels fresh.
And then there is the aspect where speaking another language with other people is just really rich on an interpersonal level: it emports you so much of their culture. When someone talks to you about their childhood in the language of their childhood, for example, you really feel the difference.
I have to add though, that my situation is different from that of an an American, in that English is not my native language (it’s Dutch): so speaking English with Germans will always amount to us speaking through an intermediate which is neither their nor my own. So the advantages to speaking German are more immediate. As an American you have the advantage that people actually speak in your mother tongue to you.
But think about it, if you always speak English with Germans, you are always allowing them to get to know you, your culture, but you never take an effort to got to know the part of them that is in German. I’ve worked with colleagues in the Netherlands who didn’t know Dutch—and frankly, I found that after a number of years it can feel belittling: if you come to my country, but you don’t care about it’s language, it also feels like you are not really interested in me.
Of course, you can skip the German speaking folks altogether, like dualogy suggests, but missing out on a people seems to be a damn shame.
Think about it: daily life instantly becomes gamified, a game of improving your language skills. You just have to make sure you set the scene: detach yourself a bit from the expat crowd (find local roommates for example). And then you throw yourself at it, not caring that you don’t know much in the beginning.
Especially the first year is super exhilirating: the first parties where you talk but that language, the first time you do a presentation, the first time you have a lover with whom you speak this language. Because another language is really another mental space in your head, it is a bit like you get to start over and everything feels fresh.
And then there is the aspect where speaking another language with other people is just really rich on an interpersonal level: it emports you so much of their culture. When someone talks to you about their childhood in the language of their childhood, for example, you really feel the difference.
I have to add though, that my situation is different from that of an an American, in that English is not my native language (it’s Dutch): so speaking English with Germans will always amount to us speaking through an intermediate which is neither their nor my own. So the advantages to speaking German are more immediate. As an American you have the advantage that people actually speak in your mother tongue to you.
But think about it, if you always speak English with Germans, you are always allowing them to get to know you, your culture, but you never take an effort to got to know the part of them that is in German. I’ve worked with colleagues in the Netherlands who didn’t know Dutch—and frankly, I found that after a number of years it can feel belittling: if you come to my country, but you don’t care about it’s language, it also feels like you are not really interested in me.
Of course, you can skip the German speaking folks altogether, like dualogy suggests, but missing out on a people seems to be a damn shame.
You'll be able to have a great time for sure but there will be still some locals you will have a hard time to interact with, some jokes you won't get, some shows which will make no sense to you etc. Nothing to worry about but it still can make a difference to know at least a little German.
Well, being a native German speaker I still suffer from all of the above issues with "some locals" on a routine basis...
But yeah, true, sure, knowing languages is always useful and can make a difference :)
But yeah, true, sure, knowing languages is always useful and can make a difference :)
I've spent 8 precious years of my childhood taking compulsory classes in german language. As it turned out later, most of young germans speak excellent english. I should have taken french.
If you end up in a big collaborative space with loads of people from different countries, they will all end up speaking english anyway.
How difficult would it be for a developer from the states to try and get a job out there? It's been a dream of mine for a while to venture out to Berlin/Germany and work out there for a year or two. I was born in Germany but do not have a passport (parents moved to the states when I was a year old).
I've visited once before and the sentiment is right, everyone out there spoke english (at least the younger crowd). I've been following the Berlin Ruby User Group but have been struggling to find good resources beyond that. Any recommendations?
I've visited once before and the sentiment is right, everyone out there spoke english (at least the younger crowd). I've been following the Berlin Ruby User Group but have been struggling to find good resources beyond that. Any recommendations?
While it is true that most younger Germans speak fairly good English I can not recommend enough to learn the language.
Once you venture outside work and start to socialize you will eventually want to speak German as it is much more fun to be able to understand everything.
Further German actually have roughly 35% more words than English. Because of this and the way it is grammatically structured a lot of fine detail is often lost in translation as the words simply do not exist in English.
Once you venture outside work and start to socialize you will eventually want to speak German as it is much more fun to be able to understand everything.
Further German actually have roughly 35% more words than English. Because of this and the way it is grammatically structured a lot of fine detail is often lost in translation as the words simply do not exist in English.
I tend to be skeptical of these efforts at engineering startup hubs out of thin air by building great new facilities. Many other complex, inter-related factors are necessary to have a successful startup hub.
As pg himself put it: "Building office buildings for technology companies won't get you a silicon valley, because the key stage in the life of a startup happens before they want that kind of space. The key stage is when they're three guys operating out of an apartment."[1] (He's covered this topic more than once -- e.g., see [2] below.)
--
[1] http://www.paulgraham.com/siliconvalley.html
[2] http://www.paulgraham.com/hubs.html
As pg himself put it: "Building office buildings for technology companies won't get you a silicon valley, because the key stage in the life of a startup happens before they want that kind of space. The key stage is when they're three guys operating out of an apartment."[1] (He's covered this topic more than once -- e.g., see [2] below.)
--
[1] http://www.paulgraham.com/siliconvalley.html
[2] http://www.paulgraham.com/hubs.html
Its too easy to substitute working on the tools and resources for working on the actual goal. I separate new managers that way: some focus on the job at hand, many focus on the setup of their office, the desk, chair, parking space, etc.
A building is the easy part to creating a startup incubator; its a tool/resource for the job. Money is just another resource, and the investor a vendor, unless they're like YCombinator. Groups like this bring much more to the table than money; their focus isn't on the building, either.
Build the project; you'll find the tools along the way.
A building is the easy part to creating a startup incubator; its a tool/resource for the job. Money is just another resource, and the investor a vendor, unless they're like YCombinator. Groups like this bring much more to the table than money; their focus isn't on the building, either.
Build the project; you'll find the tools along the way.
I really like the idea of spaces like this. I would like to see one be successful in research triangle park, NC.
If there's one thing that's always been proven true it's that startups are made the same way objects are manufactured.
More seriously I do wish them success, the tech scene in Berlin seemed vibrant when I was there for a conference and it's a beautiful city.
More seriously I do wish them success, the tech scene in Berlin seemed vibrant when I was there for a conference and it's a beautiful city.
Nice idea, and I'm sure it'll be a nice building, and good fun to work in, but the magic ingredient in a "startup factory" is most definitely not office space.
My co-founder mentioned there is some sort of german "self employment" visa, that will allow you to get residency in Germany without having to work for a local company. I don't know any more details bout that, but would love to hear from someone who has actually gone thru the process, if anyone on HN has.
Berlin is becoming a bit of a startup hub for europe, and with the economic issues this may increase if the other states start hurting small companies as they try to shore up their budgets.
This is the kind of things I'd never use, probably, except for meetups and stuff like that. But, unlike others, I think it is good that it is being built. Yes, the magic happens when you're working from your apartment or basement- and in fact, that's my preferred place to work (all founders under one roof, zero commute times, etc.)
But why is it, whenever someone says "This useful thing for startups is happening in some city" the responses are "You're not creating silicon valley!!!" Nobody said they were replicating silicon valley. Why are the defenders of silicon valley so defensive that every time something involving startups happens out side of california, they have to pile in and say that silicon valley can't be replicated? Hey, personally, that's great. I lived in the bay area. It isn't a good place to do a startup on all the criteria that matter to me (burn rate, employee availability, etc.) But it is certainly great for people whom, for the first time in their lives, they have lots of smart people to hang around with. If that's you, I can see why you'd love it. It is also great if you're doing the "google acquisition target startup" and need VC money, or a number of other possibilities.
But silicon valley does not have a patent on the idea of doing a startup, and in this globalized world, the barriers for doing startups have dropped all over the world, and thus it is GOOD that Berlin and other cities are becoming good places to do startups.
Especially since many companies simply can't relocate to Silicon valley. For instance, one of my co founders is not a US citizen. Silicon Valley is not an option for us.
Berlin is becoming a bit of a startup hub for europe, and with the economic issues this may increase if the other states start hurting small companies as they try to shore up their budgets.
This is the kind of things I'd never use, probably, except for meetups and stuff like that. But, unlike others, I think it is good that it is being built. Yes, the magic happens when you're working from your apartment or basement- and in fact, that's my preferred place to work (all founders under one roof, zero commute times, etc.)
But why is it, whenever someone says "This useful thing for startups is happening in some city" the responses are "You're not creating silicon valley!!!" Nobody said they were replicating silicon valley. Why are the defenders of silicon valley so defensive that every time something involving startups happens out side of california, they have to pile in and say that silicon valley can't be replicated? Hey, personally, that's great. I lived in the bay area. It isn't a good place to do a startup on all the criteria that matter to me (burn rate, employee availability, etc.) But it is certainly great for people whom, for the first time in their lives, they have lots of smart people to hang around with. If that's you, I can see why you'd love it. It is also great if you're doing the "google acquisition target startup" and need VC money, or a number of other possibilities.
But silicon valley does not have a patent on the idea of doing a startup, and in this globalized world, the barriers for doing startups have dropped all over the world, and thus it is GOOD that Berlin and other cities are becoming good places to do startups.
Especially since many companies simply can't relocate to Silicon valley. For instance, one of my co founders is not a US citizen. Silicon Valley is not an option for us.
I went to our local embassy in Tel Aviv but they were not very helpful, quite hostile actually. When I asked about the different kinds of visa, saying that I can apply in different possible ways (as self employed, as an employee of my own company sent overseas, etc) depending on which gives me the best chance to get the visa they said literally "we are not here to help you get into Germany, we are not a market for visas. you choose by yourself how do you want to apply and we'll send it back home for approval/denial"
so, I found a german lawyer over the internet to get advice.
Long story short (this is not legal advice, btw ;)
- self employment visa has some bizarre requirements like "investing 250K EUR and employing 5 locals" to get it "automatically". you can still get it with less but you'll have to prove your 'economic worth' to the region, which might not be trivial and needs a lot of paperwork.
- there is another kind of self employed visa, which is sometimes called an 'artist visa' and it is given to artists, teachers, engineers and some other well defined categories of self employed people. The problem with this kind of visa is that software engineers are not listed on the list, and are not legally considered 'engineers'.
me, I'll probably take my chances with the first kind. going to start the application process soon.
BTW, if anyone has any corroborating or conflicting evidence, I'll be very glad to hear it.
so, I found a german lawyer over the internet to get advice.
Long story short (this is not legal advice, btw ;)
- self employment visa has some bizarre requirements like "investing 250K EUR and employing 5 locals" to get it "automatically". you can still get it with less but you'll have to prove your 'economic worth' to the region, which might not be trivial and needs a lot of paperwork.
- there is another kind of self employed visa, which is sometimes called an 'artist visa' and it is given to artists, teachers, engineers and some other well defined categories of self employed people. The problem with this kind of visa is that software engineers are not listed on the list, and are not legally considered 'engineers'.
me, I'll probably take my chances with the first kind. going to start the application process soon.
BTW, if anyone has any corroborating or conflicting evidence, I'll be very glad to hear it.
According to a poster on ToyTown Germany (expat site), web devs can get a freelance visa.
http://www.toytowngermany.com/lofi/index.php/t215325.html
"Hi scabadaska,
I do exactly what it is you are talking about doing: Web application development and design for customers spread around the world. I have a visa to live in Germany and to work freelance for German companies but not as a fulltime employee. I approached it with very similar rationale as yourself (bringing money into the city can't be a bad thing, etc...) To get the visa I provided a well-written business plan (ca. 10 pages, translated to German) describing how I was going to make it here, proof of sufficient cash on hand to cover all my costs for well over a year, demonstrable German language skills, and two letters of intent to hire from Berlin-based companies. 200 euro and 7 days later with the help of an immigration lawyer I had the visa I wanted. Painless and cheap, when compared to some other countries. The visa requires renewal through 5 years at which point one can apply for permanent residency. Thankfully my German was good enough that I didn't have to take any integration courses.
I hear a variety of stories from people so I don't know what the norm is, if there is such a thing, but it's definitely possible to get what you're after.
I have private health insurance with dental, full coverage no deductible, from ALC-Allianz. I believe John G is "da man" in that category. Though you can also get it through Mike Woodiwiss at Spectrum (use the search) It costs me around 130 euro per month, which is peanuts compared to US insurance costs. I actually just went to a doctor last week first time so I'll soon find out how good the service is.. Some salespeople will try to tell you ALC is not sufficient but they are wrong."
I do exactly what it is you are talking about doing: Web application development and design for customers spread around the world. I have a visa to live in Germany and to work freelance for German companies but not as a fulltime employee. I approached it with very similar rationale as yourself (bringing money into the city can't be a bad thing, etc...) To get the visa I provided a well-written business plan (ca. 10 pages, translated to German) describing how I was going to make it here, proof of sufficient cash on hand to cover all my costs for well over a year, demonstrable German language skills, and two letters of intent to hire from Berlin-based companies. 200 euro and 7 days later with the help of an immigration lawyer I had the visa I wanted. Painless and cheap, when compared to some other countries. The visa requires renewal through 5 years at which point one can apply for permanent residency. Thankfully my German was good enough that I didn't have to take any integration courses.
I hear a variety of stories from people so I don't know what the norm is, if there is such a thing, but it's definitely possible to get what you're after.
I have private health insurance with dental, full coverage no deductible, from ALC-Allianz. I believe John G is "da man" in that category. Though you can also get it through Mike Woodiwiss at Spectrum (use the search) It costs me around 130 euro per month, which is peanuts compared to US insurance costs. I actually just went to a doctor last week first time so I'll soon find out how good the service is.. Some salespeople will try to tell you ALC is not sufficient but they are wrong."