Kids sickened by police training may have ingested decades old chemical weapons(sfchronicle.com)
sfchronicle.com
Kids sickened by police training may have ingested decades old chemical weapons
https://www.sfchronicle.com/crime/article/sf-jail-chemical-weapons-19476975.php
8 comments
Heads never seem to roll
I know it's been going on for years, but it's all gotten worse since 2000 imo...
https://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barring-high-iqs-cops/st...
https://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barring-high-iqs-cops/st...
I call bullshit on it being "not routine"
That means that somewhere there's a written policy defining where they should and shouldn't be doing these things, and that the policy wasn't strictly observed this time. They weren't just doing this randomly; they had procedures designed, ostensibly, to protect public safety, and the procedures weren't followed. A failure of leadership occurred at multiple levels, but, as is so common these days, nobody will be held accountable. It'll be given lip service and hand wringing, but ultimately nothing will be done.
> That means that somewhere there's a written policy defining where they should and shouldn't be doing these things, and that the policy wasn't strictly observed this time. They weren't just doing this randomly; they had procedures designed, ostensibly, to protect public safety, and the procedures weren't followed. A failure of leadership occurred at multiple levels, but, as is so common these days, nobody will be held accountable. It'll be given lip service and hand wringing, but ultimately nothing will be done.
Procedures are there to look nice in the book, what matters is culture of use. Because culture always wins with procedures.
Procedures are there to look nice in the book, what matters is culture of use. Because culture always wins with procedures.
Yup - the "should we be doing this here" and "how and where should we do this" came after the fact, meaning they've probably been flagrantly violating written procedure for a long time; it's only now that they've been caught that the rules matter.
This is what people are talking about when they say ACAB.
Such agents are highly regulated and their risks are known in-depth: essentially, never use them if you can help it, and if they were part of a military this could be considered a warcrime if used improperly, ie, against civilians; see the section in the "Convention on the Prohibition of the Development, Production, Stockpiling and Use of Chemical Weapons and on their Destruction" on incapacitants and riot control agents for further information.
Why the hell are random cops somewhere in the US training with weapons banned under international conventions? They aren't military personnel, they're civilians working for some smaller town in California. Charge them, try them, drop their asses in San Quentin, and inform genpop that they have esteemed guests.
Such agents are highly regulated and their risks are known in-depth: essentially, never use them if you can help it, and if they were part of a military this could be considered a warcrime if used improperly, ie, against civilians; see the section in the "Convention on the Prohibition of the Development, Production, Stockpiling and Use of Chemical Weapons and on their Destruction" on incapacitants and riot control agents for further information.
Why the hell are random cops somewhere in the US training with weapons banned under international conventions? They aren't military personnel, they're civilians working for some smaller town in California. Charge them, try them, drop their asses in San Quentin, and inform genpop that they have esteemed guests.
I was shocked that manufacturers don’t disclose the entire ingredient list for their tear gas. This stuff is inhaled by civilians, the contents should be required to be available to the public.
This fits the "militarization of policing" narrative, but in how many different ways ?
Calling tear gas a "chemical weapon" is technically accurate, but still a BS clickbait tactic. Teargas shouldn't have been anywhere near kids, but that won't get most of the press with headlines like this around.
When people say "chemical weapon" they think "weapon of mass destruction" even if they don't know names like mustard gas, vx or seran. These are clearly very different categories of things.
It sucks that this will get a pass from many people when they realize schoolkids weren't at risk of mass death, because teargas simply isn't going to kill a lot of kids. Should the cops have behaved better? Yes. Should they be in trouble for tear gassing kids? Yes. Will this be downplayed while people argue uselessly if this was or wasn't a chemical weapon attack while trying to get a better understanding of the story? Yes. Will this water down future talks of weapons of mass destruction as "Chemincal Weapons"? I think it will.
When people say "chemical weapon" they think "weapon of mass destruction" even if they don't know names like mustard gas, vx or seran. These are clearly very different categories of things.
It sucks that this will get a pass from many people when they realize schoolkids weren't at risk of mass death, because teargas simply isn't going to kill a lot of kids. Should the cops have behaved better? Yes. Should they be in trouble for tear gassing kids? Yes. Will this be downplayed while people argue uselessly if this was or wasn't a chemical weapon attack while trying to get a better understanding of the story? Yes. Will this water down future talks of weapons of mass destruction as "Chemincal Weapons"? I think it will.
CS gas and tear gas are chemical weapons. Period. By definition. It is not a technical distinction. See WWI. The fact there are more deadly chemical weapons does not change that use of CS and tear gas are chemical weopons and their use in war would be war crimes
The CWC does not treat tear gas as a banned chemical weapon, instead classifying it as a riot control agent (RCA). Article II(7) defines RCA as “[a]ny chemical … which can produce rapidly in humans sensory irritation or disabling physical effects which disappear within a short time … .” CWC Article I(5) prohibits using RCA “as a method of warfare,” but does not define the term method of warfare, leading to a potential exception or “loophole.”
https://www.justsecurity.org/76595/clearing-the-fog-of-war-s...
Pedanticisim aside, the .mil requires risk assessments up the wazoo for every training event, let alone using CS/OC, and they should have expected this. Hope it deploys and dissipates for 60 year old anything is a bad gamble in the desert, let alone a built up occupied urban area.
https://www.justsecurity.org/76595/clearing-the-fog-of-war-s...
Pedanticisim aside, the .mil requires risk assessments up the wazoo for every training event, let alone using CS/OC, and they should have expected this. Hope it deploys and dissipates for 60 year old anything is a bad gamble in the desert, let alone a built up occupied urban area.
I remember a fun little fact back from the run-up to the Iraq War: Under some sections of US code, a single hand-grenade is (was?) literally a "weapon of mass destruction."
He didn't say otherwise. Under the legal definition, my 'death vindaloo' made with 3 moruga scorpion peppers is a chemical weapon, and simply the act of cooking it as a combatant in a warzone would constitute a war crime. It's also immensely delicious and one of my favorite meals, I make it twice a month.
CS gas is 2-chlorobenzalmalononitrile [1], not capsacin. "Although [CS gas is] described as a non-lethal weapon for crowd control, studies have raised doubts about this classification. CS can cause severe pulmonary damage and can also significantly damage the heart and liver." [1]
Tear gas is largly bromoacetone, not capsacin [2]. Though, CS gases and tear gases can contain mixtures with capsacin AFAIK.
It's funny, except when the police flood urban areas with this stuff. EG: "Seattle Residents Got Tear Gassed in Their Own Apartments" [3]
A SF school added to that list is sad.
Sure though, we can make jokes whenever you cook that you prepared a weapon of war.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CS_gas
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tear_gas
[3] https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2020/06/04/43840246/seattle...
Tear gas is largly bromoacetone, not capsacin [2]. Though, CS gases and tear gases can contain mixtures with capsacin AFAIK.
It's funny, except when the police flood urban areas with this stuff. EG: "Seattle Residents Got Tear Gassed in Their Own Apartments" [3]
A SF school added to that list is sad.
Sure though, we can make jokes whenever you cook that you prepared a weapon of war.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CS_gas
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tear_gas
[3] https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2020/06/04/43840246/seattle...
[deleted]
In 2024 it feels like nobody in government knows exactly what law enforcement needs to do anymore, but by god they'd better do everything because legislators are powerless to reform or regulate the unforeseen consequences of Reagan era neoliberalism.
deploying riot cops with ancient chemical weapons near children should get your mayor railroaded into a job at McDonalds.
deploying riot cops with ancient chemical weapons near children should get your mayor railroaded into a job at McDonalds.
>deploying riot cops with ancient chemical weapons near children should get your mayor railroaded into a job at McDonalds.
That's what many Americans want, though. They believe their streets are full of immigrants and thugs raping and killing at will, gangsters doing crack, vagrants shitting in the street and pedophiles stalking their children. They want hard men to crack skulls, shoot first and ask questions later. They vote for the mayor who promises to take back the streets, time and again.
That's what many Americans want, though. They believe their streets are full of immigrants and thugs raping and killing at will, gangsters doing crack, vagrants shitting in the street and pedophiles stalking their children. They want hard men to crack skulls, shoot first and ask questions later. They vote for the mayor who promises to take back the streets, time and again.
Many Americans isn’t a data point.
It's a good thing I'm not submitting that comment to a journal for peer review, then.
It’s not just the Mayor’s issue. Maybe hold the police accountable as well.
My impression is the accountability is not there. The city just settles, the money comes out of taxpayer pockets. I will be shocked if any police officer, seargent, anyone, loses pay, demoted, or held accountable for criminal negligence.
With regards to settlements, For example, since George Floyd's murder in 2020, on average police forces have spent $5M of tax payer* money each month settling police violence lawsuits [1]
[1] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/article/2024/may/25/poli...
* I emphasize tax payer as the funds do not come from police budgets, but instead city coffers.
With regards to settlements, For example, since George Floyd's murder in 2020, on average police forces have spent $5M of tax payer* money each month settling police violence lawsuits [1]
[1] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/article/2024/may/25/poli...
* I emphasize tax payer as the funds do not come from police budgets, but instead city coffers.
[deleted]
> Reagan era neoliberalism
Personally, I loathe Ronald Reagan, but neoliberalism and deregulation started in the US under the Carter administration.
Personally, I loathe Ronald Reagan, but neoliberalism and deregulation started in the US under the Carter administration.
https://archive.md/DPv9Q
(No paywall but buggy ad blocker detection)
(No paywall but buggy ad blocker detection)
timcavel(2)
CS gas and pepper spray - capsicin extract - were the two suspected substances.
CS gas and the solvent it's in are incredibly toxic, and are known to be toxic. It can cause heart, lung, and liver damage in acute exposure. Degrading kids health and possibly taking years of their life expectancy deserves more accountability than an "oops, we'll do better next time!"
Beyond the original chemicals in the CS gas canisters, the chemicals likely change over time, oxidizing and possibly mixing with chemicals in the container, so who knows what additional toxic hazard the expired canisters might have in store?
Just brief exposure can result in sensitization, such that any future exposure could trigger something like an asthma attack or a huge inflammatory response.
Absolutely nothing about this is ok.
>>The source said it was not routine to deploy such a large amount of munitions in an area so close to civilian populations.
Heads need to roll, or it'll just happen again. A whole lot of people made some very bad choices. Cops should be the most accountable of all members of society, given their authority.
None of the cops involved should be trusted with anything more dangerous or complex than tying their shoes unless and until they can prove they've got any respect for the rest of society.