Meta takes $40K, holds our business ransom(tidbyt.com)
tidbyt.com
Meta takes $40K, holds our business ransom
https://tidbyt.com/blogs/tidbyt/meta-takes-40k-holds-our-business-ransom
18 comments
Amex might very well take the OP's side, and they'd be right to. Credit card companies typically want to protect their customers and are predisposed to help them in matters like this. However, they have absolutely no control over what Meta does after that. They can't force Meta to keep doing business with the OP, even if the reason for terminating business is "I want to punish OP for taking 40k from my account that I didn't think was there."
Editing to add: One avenue that would probably work fairly well would be to get a lawyer to send a mean letter to Meta's general counsel. $40k is enough money to make the hourly rate worth it, and an attorney will be happy to help further if Meta tries to be punitive.
Editing to add: One avenue that would probably work fairly well would be to get a lawyer to send a mean letter to Meta's general counsel. $40k is enough money to make the hourly rate worth it, and an attorney will be happy to help further if Meta tries to be punitive.
>Editing to add: One avenue that would probably work fairly well would be to get a lawyer to send a mean letter to Meta's general counsel. $40k is enough money to make the hourly rate worth it, and an attorney will be happy to help further if Meta tries to be punitive.
This 100%.
This 100%.
That's a really good point and suggestion. I'll reach out to our attorney. (grimacing at the cost as I write this)
Best of luck to you. Please come back and let us know what happens (if you can).
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Thanks. I'll update here if/when I can.
> They can't force Meta to keep doing business with the OP
Why not? Why can't they just add something to their merchant agreements to the effect of "if a customer files a chargeback that's resolved in their favor, you may not retaliate against them in any way"?
Why not? Why can't they just add something to their merchant agreements to the effect of "if a customer files a chargeback that's resolved in their favor, you may not retaliate against them in any way"?
This being said, if a merchant gets too many chargebacks the gateway or processor may terminate the merchant's account.
So Facebook will be forced to stop accepting credit card payments that they can't handle properly anyway. Seems like a good solution to me.
I know from experience that attempting to chargeback any Meta owned business is immediate banning on the platform.
EDIT: I would strongly recommend you don’t do a chargeback and fix it some other way. It took me almost 200 days for Meta to restore my account and I was still out the money. If you need that account don’t charge back.
EDIT: I would strongly recommend you don’t do a chargeback and fix it some other way. It took me almost 200 days for Meta to restore my account and I was still out the money. If you need that account don’t charge back.
The other option is to file a small claims lawsuit if it's a small enough value in your municipality (some areas do allow claims to $10k, some even a little more). Or just have a lawyer send a legal threat with documentation.
Thanks for the heads-up. Exploring other channels now. We can't risk having the account shutdown for 200 days (or even 30).
If you can't do chargebacks anyway, then what's the point of even using a credit card for this?
You can do chargebacks, it's just that you are not likely to have business with that merchant again. No big deal, given that that merchant is proven to be not very reliable with your money, right?
The issue arises when there is no other merchant, in other words - when there is a monopoly, or something close to it.
Which is exactly the case with Meta. That's the issue. If you are in U.S., please ask your representatives to take some anti-trust action and split this company once and for all.
The issue arises when there is no other merchant, in other words - when there is a monopoly, or something close to it.
Which is exactly the case with Meta. That's the issue. If you are in U.S., please ask your representatives to take some anti-trust action and split this company once and for all.
In my experience with non-tech businesses, the point of using a credit card for large business expenses is to get credit card points.
There's a fun story that goes around about the president of an unnamed tech startup using his amex to pay the company's payroll, until they told him to knock it off.
I'm definitely considering it but trying to make sure we fully, thoroughly exhaust all other channels. Totally agree that it wouldn't be "reasonable" to permanently suspend our account for a chargeback in this scenario, but it's hard to know what's reasonable at this point.
Sucks to say it but having to double-pay this invoice may still be a better scenario than having the business fully banned from Meta Ads.
Sucks to say it but having to double-pay this invoice may still be a better scenario than having the business fully banned from Meta Ads.
In any case, I think the worst option is to let Facebook cancel your account and not doing the chargeback.
I'm not an expert on finances at all, but I'd pay using the old method, then chargeback. If they then cancel your account, they'd have to repay the new payment too, and I think someone there would start wondering why the hell they're cancelling you then.
I'm not an expert on finances at all, but I'd pay using the old method, then chargeback. If they then cancel your account, they'd have to repay the new payment too, and I think someone there would start wondering why the hell they're cancelling you then.
Pay again then chargeback previous payment. You have full right to chargeback extra money.
It's not possible to pay by credit card again — just get a generic error when trying to open the payment form. So it would have to be by wire transfer, for which there are no chargeback protections.
Right, but, pay by wire to settle what Meta thinks is outstanding, and then initiate the chargeback process. At least during the pendency of that process, you’ll have that wire transfer documentation that seems to be the only thing Meta can comprehend, and you can (hopefully, fingers crossed, get back up and running).
I get that there’s a real risk here that you could wind up out another $40k at the end of the day and your problem still isn’t solved, but if losing access to the Meta market is as fundamental a risk to the business as I took away from the post, then it seems to me like job one is to ensure that the business survives and that the (admittedly unpleasant) process of getting trued-up on the $40k is exactly the kind of thing that your lawyer is for.
I get that there’s a real risk here that you could wind up out another $40k at the end of the day and your problem still isn’t solved, but if losing access to the Meta market is as fundamental a risk to the business as I took away from the post, then it seems to me like job one is to ensure that the business survives and that the (admittedly unpleasant) process of getting trued-up on the $40k is exactly the kind of thing that your lawyer is for.
You're probably right. We can hopefully get back the money, but there's no getting back the lost revenue. Missed the wire cutoff for today but guess I know what I'll be doing tomorrow.
It seems like a truly crappy situation, and I’m sorry you’re having to deal with this. Looks like a cool product.
If you hold shares, there should be a shareholder relations department you can contact which often has the ability to skip multiple layers of bullshit.
(source: patio11 has mentioned more than once holding a handful of shares in companies he's a customer of to make him eligible to use that approach)
(source: patio11 has mentioned more than once holding a handful of shares in companies he's a customer of to make him eligible to use that approach)
While a chargeback is effectively the right move, most large companies have extremely heavy handed responses to it even if it's to correct their error you've made good faith effort to resolve.
As I think someone else mentioned, that would be a no brainer if you had no expectation of every doing business with them again but I wouldn't do that in this case.
As I think someone else mentioned, that would be a no brainer if you had no expectation of every doing business with them again but I wouldn't do that in this case.
I saw a story on Reddit (posted it here as well) where someone did a chargeback for Google Ads and their Gmail got permabanned.
Chargebacks are not as powerful as you think. Do enough and you won’t win anymore regardless of how right you are. Uber, Amazon, Google, etc will straight up ban people who do chargebacks with no recourse.
Chargebacks are not as powerful as you think. Do enough and you won’t win anymore regardless of how right you are. Uber, Amazon, Google, etc will straight up ban people who do chargebacks with no recourse.
chargeback = perma ban
Former internal employee can't even get backchannel help with Facebook's insanely customer-hostile purchasing process, has to resort to court of public opinion to (maybe) get resolution.
What a great ad for Meta's regard for their customers. This company actively makes the world worse and anyone giving them a single dollar of revenue is participating in that.
Follow Tesla's example and delete your Instagram and Facebook accounts. "We have to use it for our business" is a lie people tell themselves.
What a great ad for Meta's regard for their customers. This company actively makes the world worse and anyone giving them a single dollar of revenue is participating in that.
Follow Tesla's example and delete your Instagram and Facebook accounts. "We have to use it for our business" is a lie people tell themselves.
Tesla is the extremely rare example of a business that is interesting enough that people write about them for free. They don't need to advertise.
*was. Tesla's keel the bottom of their demand pool a few quarters ago and are no longer selling evey car made. The 2 levers at their disposal to boost sales are price cuts and marketing (ads), and they've already started on the former...
I know they didn't in the past but they do now. I've seen ads on Youtube from them ever since my adblocker stopped working. Sadly the ads are just straight up stock automotive ads.
>Sadly the ads are just straight up stock automotive ads.
I guess it makes sense - all the people who are excited about Tesla as a company don't need the ads. So, reaching people who just want to ... buy a car?
I guess it makes sense - all the people who are excited about Tesla as a company don't need the ads. So, reaching people who just want to ... buy a car?
UPDATE (2024-03-26):
A business development manager at Meta saw this post yesterday and escalated the issue internally. They provisionally unsuspended our account this morning.
This afternoon, the collections team confirmed that they received our payment, and applied it to the account.
Thanks to everyone for their advice and input. For what it's worth, we'll definitely maintain a presence on Meta, but our team is taking a second look at TikTok for marketing.
A business development manager at Meta saw this post yesterday and escalated the issue internally. They provisionally unsuspended our account this morning.
This afternoon, the collections team confirmed that they received our payment, and applied it to the account.
Thanks to everyone for their advice and input. For what it's worth, we'll definitely maintain a presence on Meta, but our team is taking a second look at TikTok for marketing.
Glad to hear you got this figured out. Shame it required HN to act as your support hotline.
Yeah... unfortunately it seems like "problem with major company, can't get support" has become an entire genre of HN post.
It's insane that this is what it takes to get it resolved.
I try once to resolve things...and then I just keep insisting they provide thier mailing address for my small claim suit. I say it kindly and matter of fact, not angrily. I talk about it as if it's just normal business for me. I might say 'I appreciate you trying to help, but I have spent 1 hr on this to no avail, it's just more time and cost efficient to file small claims suite. Judges have a way of getting to it quick. What is the business mailing address for legal correspondence?'.
I wouldn't say it works like magic, but I can say it has worked several times.
I wouldn't say it works like magic, but I can say it has worked several times.
I would file a lawsuit. Guaranteed that Meta will respond to a lawsuit. You've provided Meta with all the evidence they need and they refuse to acknowledge it. The courts will help them see things your way. Be sure to include your attorney's fees in the suit.
You don't even need to file a lawsuit, a legal demand letter written by an attorney is cheap, they can attach the documentation and send it to Meta's legal. That will probably get their attention to get someone to clobber heads.
A lawsuit is never the first action to take. Always send an email and physical mail to the company's general counsel first. Odds are it'll be dealt with straight away.
Yes, you start asking nicely, then you escalate to threat of lawsuit. And then if they response with sue us, you do that. If you think it is worth it.
I'm surprised a company can behave like this in the first place and just ignore a customer they charged for 40K without registering it. It's extremely unprofessional.
What would be the cause of action?
Which statute authorizes fee shifting for attorneys fees?
Which statute authorizes fee shifting for attorneys fees?
I'm no lawyer, but the 2 angles I see are failure to provide agreed services (that were paid for!), and double billing.
Not having recourse for being deplatformed sucks, but for the rest, take the Internet out of the equation and it's a bog-standard contract dispute between companies, that the law is well-equipped to handle.
Not having recourse for being deplatformed sucks, but for the rest, take the Internet out of the equation and it's a bog-standard contract dispute between companies, that the law is well-equipped to handle.
You've paid facebook millions in the last few years. Another 37k is only a small % of that. Pay them another 37k and take it as a lesson learned not to use a credit card with them. Write off as loss.
Or sue / chargeback and end your relationship with the platform.
Either way it has become a marketing opportunity that is probably worth the 37k.
Or sue / chargeback and end your relationship with the platform.
Either way it has become a marketing opportunity that is probably worth the 37k.
Meta took $50 from my paypal account because someone got into an ads portal and ran a campaign. Tried escalating with Paypal and no word from Meta. That $50 seems gone. Meta did lock down my ads account though. Can’t believe they won’t refund the transfer
No idea if it helps with this sort of thing but one hack that patio11 recommends is to own a de minimus amount of stock in the company to have shareholder relations available as a channel for contacting someone who can fix things.
Dispute the charge with Amex, like you probably should have done at first sign of trouble. You can do this even after paying the bill.
Undertaking a claim that there is no one you can speak to Facebook about this will help them quickly find someone to talk to you and respond to the credit card company and you.
When standard channels aren't working, complain to someone who can do something about it.
A couple of times in my life, I've had good luck contacting the office of Chairpman of the Board. I had problem with a debt collector of American Express, I was a financial delinquent in those days, and I contacted American Express directly. I asked for the Chairman of the Board's office, and talked to his assistant. I explained the situation about how I was being lied to by the debt collector, the assistant arranged to have the debt recalled to American Express, and I worked w/ Amex directly after that.
Another time, also w/ Amex, my friend's consulting invoice wasn't being paid my Amex in a timely manner. I recommended she contact them using the same approach, and an assistant helped her get paid.
More recently, I had a problem getting my tax return processed with the Internal Revenue Service. I complained to my Congressman, his office put me in touch with a tax advocate at the IRS, and everything was cleared up. This is the second time I needed to do this.
A couple of times in my life, I've had good luck contacting the office of Chairpman of the Board. I had problem with a debt collector of American Express, I was a financial delinquent in those days, and I contacted American Express directly. I asked for the Chairman of the Board's office, and talked to his assistant. I explained the situation about how I was being lied to by the debt collector, the assistant arranged to have the debt recalled to American Express, and I worked w/ Amex directly after that.
Another time, also w/ Amex, my friend's consulting invoice wasn't being paid my Amex in a timely manner. I recommended she contact them using the same approach, and an assistant helped her get paid.
More recently, I had a problem getting my tax return processed with the Internal Revenue Service. I complained to my Congressman, his office put me in touch with a tax advocate at the IRS, and everything was cleared up. This is the second time I needed to do this.
Yeah, disputing the charge might be better than a straight chargeback. The merchant gets to respond to the dispute and provide evidence, and if they clearly deny having issued the charge then it gets reversed and you can move on.
Also playing hardball with a chargeback makes it almost but certain your entire account will get shut down.
The goal is to get someone's attention because Facebook is so big.
The goal is to get someone's attention because Facebook is so big.
CFBP? I know it's consumer finance, but might be worth a try. I've had success with the two cases I've filed in the past. Got my money back in both.
https://www.consumerfinance.gov/complaint/
https://www.consumerfinance.gov/complaint/
Unconscionable for a 1.3T company to behave this way towards a small business.
If there was meaningful choice in this space, they wouldn't act this way. Companies that have to deal with the possibility of their customers going to a competitor, generally have better customer service and better customer systems.
Which is a really good argument for breaking up companies the size of Meta.
Large businesses are absolutely notorious for stiffing small businesses. They overcharge and underpay all the time. Businesses often have employees devoted to chasing down invoices.
That is free market capitalism as we have it... And big companies working like this is one reason why they are big.
Honestly I think the best way to get this resolved is making a lot of noise. Eventually someone at FB in the right place notices and fixes it. So you're doing the right thing.
Oh and a letter from a lawyer.
Oh and a letter from a lawyer.
Stop giving FB $40k, or any money. You're only feeding the beast, which won't make it stop.
Your product looks awesome!
This is totally unacceptable on the part of Meta. Hope you get it resolved.
Thanks Paul, appreciate it. Still trying to reach out to anyone and everyone.
I can’t believe how shoddy the CC payment is. And “the ad platform is known to be buggy”. Are you serious? I’m sure they hire only the best
It's truly a bummer. I posted about this in a Meta alumni group, and here's a couple different responses that I received:
> Same exact situation. Millions in spend. Jumped over to TikTok.
> Nearly every time I interact with the ads products, I hit multiple bugs ...
> Same exact situation. Millions in spend. Jumped over to TikTok.
> Nearly every time I interact with the ads products, I hit multiple bugs ...
How is this even possible? Billions of dollars and they can’t fix this? Hire me. I’ll fix it for 20 million.
If you can be so abusive to your customers and provide such a terrible experience and people still line up to do business with you it's a sure sign that you're basically a monopoly.
If you have no serious competition you have no incentive to do better.
If you have no serious competition you have no incentive to do better.
It's buggy and I use it enough to know a lot of the bugs. Lately though it's buggy when trying to publish new ads and updates to ads. It's super frustrating.
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I'd use the payment method you used before, because that always worked, and then chargeback the old payment that clearly didn't work. How are they going to side with Facebook when you've got all that documentation that they don't recognise that payment?