$5 device tests for breast cancer in under 5 seconds: study(studyfinds.org)
studyfinds.org
$5 device tests for breast cancer in under 5 seconds: study
https://studyfinds.org/device-breast-cancer-5-seconds/
28 comments
You can absolutely draw conclusions about the statistical power of the test. That’s what statistics is for.
If this sample data is randomly sampled it looks like it will be a fairly high precision test for invasive cancers, with room for false negatives. You would have had to have gotten very unlucky to see such a difference in distributions even on a small sample like this. But sure, let’s get more samples.
If this sample data is randomly sampled it looks like it will be a fairly high precision test for invasive cancers, with room for false negatives. You would have had to have gotten very unlucky to see such a difference in distributions even on a small sample like this. But sure, let’s get more samples.
Thank you for this! I get frustrated with the "N of only 21? Might as well flip a coin!" responses. Like you say, the whole purpose of statistical testing is to give an accurate, numeric value that says how likely the results are due to chance.
One thing I'd note, though, is that the paper's title is "High sensitivity saliva-based biosensor in detection of breast cancer biomarkers: HER2 and CA15-3". My understanding is that sensitivity was never really the problem with breast cancer detection - it's specificity that is the real challenge with all types of broadly-deployed medical screening tools.
One thing I'd note, though, is that the paper's title is "High sensitivity saliva-based biosensor in detection of breast cancer biomarkers: HER2 and CA15-3". My understanding is that sensitivity was never really the problem with breast cancer detection - it's specificity that is the real challenge with all types of broadly-deployed medical screening tools.
People on HN (maybe elsewhere too) devote a lot of attention to sample sizes. I don't know the upthread commenter at all, but in general I suspect it's because that is an easy thing to understand about research and statistics, and it's a valid critique they've seen professionals use.
A normal human fallacy is to focus on the thing you understand, that is easy to understand (e.g., easy to quantify), and overlook the difficult issues that are far more important. There is much more, of much more importance going on in most of these studies, and in their statistics and validity, than the sample size.
A normal human fallacy is to focus on the thing you understand, that is easy to understand (e.g., easy to quantify), and overlook the difficult issues that are far more important. There is much more, of much more importance going on in most of these studies, and in their statistics and validity, than the sample size.
Elsewhere too
I first took stats in high school and we read a bunch of valid small sample size studies so I don’t know where people are failing to get educated.
There were so many factors going into whether a study was good.
I first took stats in high school and we read a bunch of valid small sample size studies so I don’t know where people are failing to get educated.
There were so many factors going into whether a study was good.
Exactly.
Famous example: Lady tasting Tea [1]. N=1 or N=8 depending on how you look at it. Still significant.
This is the one that proves that it's possible to tell whether you added the milk first or second.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_tasting_tea
Famous example: Lady tasting Tea [1]. N=1 or N=8 depending on how you look at it. Still significant.
This is the one that proves that it's possible to tell whether you added the milk first or second.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_tasting_tea
No matter what the value of N is, someone always comes out of the woodwork to complain about it. It's a pretty common criticism of any study that relies on statistics, and one anyone can make in a few sentences.
Sensitivity matters in this case because the medium is saliva which contains a fraction of the antigens contained in serum. Specificity is challenging when the biomarkers are non-specific and you only have 1 testing modality but that seems to be not so much the case here.
My assumption is that 98% of people have no idea what the right sample size is for this particular experiment, including myself of course.
To all who criticize and ridicule someone who would like to have more samples, why do you think 21 is such a perfect number in this case? Wouldn't 15 be enough, if statistics and all applies? 10? 1? Would 30 be too much?
To all who criticize and ridicule someone who would like to have more samples, why do you think 21 is such a perfect number in this case? Wouldn't 15 be enough, if statistics and all applies? 10? 1? Would 30 be too much?
It is a function of the effect size, not the experiment. When the effect size is large, you need fewer samples to detect it reliably. In this case it looks pretty large. Would you want more people before rolling it out? Of course. But it’s very unlikely to be vaporware provided the samples are random.
Thank you! Came here to say, but found, that you've already written it.
Effect size is going to be important when talking about clinical significance, not just statistic significance, too.
I also want to point out that we have no stats on sensitivity, specificity, or diagnostic odds ratio, which are all clinically relevant to physicians deciding when to test and how to interpret test results.
The good news is that it's a non-invasive, low cost test which plays a factor in clinical decision-making.
Effect size is going to be important when talking about clinical significance, not just statistic significance, too.
I also want to point out that we have no stats on sensitivity, specificity, or diagnostic odds ratio, which are all clinically relevant to physicians deciding when to test and how to interpret test results.
The good news is that it's a non-invasive, low cost test which plays a factor in clinical decision-making.
> To all who criticize and ridicule someone who would like to have more samples, why do you think 21 is such a perfect number in this case? Wouldn't 15 be enough, if statistics and all applies? 10? 1? Would 30 be too much?
This is the point that you are fundamentally misunderstanding. Nobody is making the argument that "21 is such a perfect number in this case". The rest of your sentences ("Wouldn't 15 be enough, if statistics and all applies? 10? 1? Would 30 be too much?") seem to point to a belief that people are pulling numbers based on a finger in the wind.
The whole point of (a lot of) statistical testing is that it allows you to come up with a specific number that determines how likely a particular result is due to chance. That is what the p < .05 "standard" is about - it's a determination that the results have less than a 5% likelihood to be due to random chance (though that 5% number used as "significant" is just basically pulled out of thin air, and p-hacking is another topic...) That is, I and the comment I replied to aren't making the argument that 21 "is such a perfect number". We're making the argument that even with a small sample size it's possible to determine the relative error bars, with precision, using statistical methods, not just pulling a number based on feels. Yes, larger sample sizes reduce the size of those error bars. But often not in ways that are "intuitive". You have to do the math.
None of what I wrote above is meant to imply that statistical tests can't be misused, or that they often require assumptions about the underlying population distribution that may not be correct.
This is the point that you are fundamentally misunderstanding. Nobody is making the argument that "21 is such a perfect number in this case". The rest of your sentences ("Wouldn't 15 be enough, if statistics and all applies? 10? 1? Would 30 be too much?") seem to point to a belief that people are pulling numbers based on a finger in the wind.
The whole point of (a lot of) statistical testing is that it allows you to come up with a specific number that determines how likely a particular result is due to chance. That is what the p < .05 "standard" is about - it's a determination that the results have less than a 5% likelihood to be due to random chance (though that 5% number used as "significant" is just basically pulled out of thin air, and p-hacking is another topic...) That is, I and the comment I replied to aren't making the argument that 21 "is such a perfect number". We're making the argument that even with a small sample size it's possible to determine the relative error bars, with precision, using statistical methods, not just pulling a number based on feels. Yes, larger sample sizes reduce the size of those error bars. But often not in ways that are "intuitive". You have to do the math.
None of what I wrote above is meant to imply that statistical tests can't be misused, or that they often require assumptions about the underlying population distribution that may not be correct.
If you only flip a coin to the same side 21 times in a row, it could just be chance!
It's only 1 in a million, but at about 10 the same I'd start to figure the coin wasn't fair.
It's only 1 in a million, but at about 10 the same I'd start to figure the coin wasn't fair.
This is why science has gotten harder these days. When there were only half a billion people, sampling 500 got you 1 in a million coverage. Now there are 8 billion people, so it's worth 16 times less. As more people are made, science will suffer because the percentage is so much less. In fact, this is why I always trust science in small towns more. In Colma, for instance, you sample 500 and you have covered 33% of the people. Sometimes, it's even better to just sample people in one house. 100% coverage.
TBH, I can't tell if this is sarcastic or not, because there is so much in this comment that belies a fundamental misunderstanding of statistical testing and statistical power, which is the point I was trying to make.
> Now there are 8 billion people, so it's worth 16 times less.
That is not how statistics works, at all.
> In fact, this is why I always trust science in small towns more. In Colma, for instance, you sample 500 and you have covered 33% of the people.
These are the sentences that made me think this had to be satire (presumably you want "science" to apply to places outside of Colma...), but in all honesty these days it's really hard to tell.
> Now there are 8 billion people, so it's worth 16 times less.
That is not how statistics works, at all.
> In fact, this is why I always trust science in small towns more. In Colma, for instance, you sample 500 and you have covered 33% of the people.
These are the sentences that made me think this had to be satire (presumably you want "science" to apply to places outside of Colma...), but in all honesty these days it's really hard to tell.
Well, depends. It’s bayes law fucking us over with the vast majority of people not having breast cancer but really, really needing to know if they do.
This is why it’s better to have tiers of confidence for actual policy decisions and not just confusion matrix results frankly.
Like if you run this test and you’re in a cohort that is 99.999% likely to be cancer, that’s useful info. It’s not a problem, per se, if the test instead comes back with an answer of mixed certainty. We just need to be comfortable with getting neither a positive nor a negative prediction; nor expecting it to cover all cases.
The policy driving thresholds on tests need to consider the weights of each possible outcome to determine what to do.
This is why it’s better to have tiers of confidence for actual policy decisions and not just confusion matrix results frankly.
Like if you run this test and you’re in a cohort that is 99.999% likely to be cancer, that’s useful info. It’s not a problem, per se, if the test instead comes back with an answer of mixed certainty. We just need to be comfortable with getting neither a positive nor a negative prediction; nor expecting it to cover all cases.
The policy driving thresholds on tests need to consider the weights of each possible outcome to determine what to do.
With so few controls, it’s still not a well designed comparison. Most scientists deal with low sample sizes, especially in first trials. However, what is often overlooked is the need for sufficient numbers of negative controls. If they only had 4 control patients, that’s completely inadequate to draw any real conclusions. With access to a biobank at U of Florida, they should have been able to test more samples — especially with a $5 test.
There are two other issues with this paper [1] that I quickly see. Their main figure lacks errors bars. It’s pretty clear to me that the groups would overlap quite a bit. More numbers would make this problem clearer (either to narrow error bars or clearly show an overlap). The lack of error bars across the paper make me think they didn’t do any technical replicates, which is also a problem.
I’m also not sure a one way test is correct here, but I’m also not entirely sure how they are measuring the data. In this one way analysis, all you can tell is if one group is higher than the other. When the data are so unbalanced, what you don’t see is what the predictive value of the test is — false positive/negative. That’s the real issue here. It looks like you’d have a really high false negative rate, as the cancer samples have a much wider range than the controls. This is the worst thing you can have in a test like this.
Finally — this paper was published in the “journal of vacuum sciences and technology B.” There is no way this paper got a valid peer review to make these claims. I don’t know anything about this journal, but I doubt it has much experience with cancer testing.
[1] https://pubs.aip.org/avs/jvb/article/42/2/023202/3262988/Hig...
There are two other issues with this paper [1] that I quickly see. Their main figure lacks errors bars. It’s pretty clear to me that the groups would overlap quite a bit. More numbers would make this problem clearer (either to narrow error bars or clearly show an overlap). The lack of error bars across the paper make me think they didn’t do any technical replicates, which is also a problem.
I’m also not sure a one way test is correct here, but I’m also not entirely sure how they are measuring the data. In this one way analysis, all you can tell is if one group is higher than the other. When the data are so unbalanced, what you don’t see is what the predictive value of the test is — false positive/negative. That’s the real issue here. It looks like you’d have a really high false negative rate, as the cancer samples have a much wider range than the controls. This is the worst thing you can have in a test like this.
Finally — this paper was published in the “journal of vacuum sciences and technology B.” There is no way this paper got a valid peer review to make these claims. I don’t know anything about this journal, but I doubt it has much experience with cancer testing.
[1] https://pubs.aip.org/avs/jvb/article/42/2/023202/3262988/Hig...
A small control sample is not “few controls”. Misleading term. “Negative controls” is not a thing either. Just the control group is fine.
The error bars are not really needed. Your eyeballs are doing just fine. Yes, they overlap. Yes, it would likely have a high false negative rate.
A false negative rate is not a problem for a cheap test. This test is not meant to replace higher quality and more invasive tests. A high precision, low recall test still has significant value. You merely have to accept that a negative result tells you very little.
If we imagined for instance, that the false positive rate is very low despite the overwhelmingly larger population of people without cancer, then this would be of enormous value.
The error bars are not really needed. Your eyeballs are doing just fine. Yes, they overlap. Yes, it would likely have a high false negative rate.
A false negative rate is not a problem for a cheap test. This test is not meant to replace higher quality and more invasive tests. A high precision, low recall test still has significant value. You merely have to accept that a negative result tells you very little.
If we imagined for instance, that the false positive rate is very low despite the overwhelmingly larger population of people without cancer, then this would be of enormous value.
This is an unbalanced study. As such, it doesn't tell you anything about the ability to differentiate between the three populations. You can argue about the terms "negative control" (which is appropriate here, as there is a positive control test in the paper), but there are only 4 non-cancer samples tested. That is not enough to be able to adequately know range of measurable values in the population of patients w/o cancer.
But, that's not really the point. They aren't trying to diagnose cancer vs. healthy.
Error bars here are absolutely necessary. Two reasons: First, you want to know the approximate ranges for each group in Figures 3 and 5. Not showing them is misleading. Secondly -- you actually also want error bars for each patient sample. I'd expect for there to be at least three replicates for each saliva sample to show that the strips are able to consistently measure a known value from each sample.
I also mis-read part of the paper the first time. For the HER2 cases, there aren't 4 negative samples -- there are 20. There is only one positive sample. Part of the problem is really how they are presenting the data -- it is not all clear what they are testing. But, there is only one HER2+ sample in the mix.
One... N=1.
Samples include:
* Non-cancer: 4
* In situ cancer: 3
* Invasive cancer, HER2-: 13
* Invasive cancer, HER2+: 1
What you'd really like to show is that the HER2+ patients could be differentiated from HER2- patients. Which, does look really good, but with only one HER2+ sample, you really can't tell much. (And the presence of so much signal in the HER2- samples raises some very interesting biological/mechanistic questions).
Note: I'm not trying to say that the authors of the study are wrong or are trying to deliberately mislead people. There is so much here that could have been corrected to make this a much stronger paper. To me, this seems like a paper where the authors are likely engineers and not that well versed in biomedical statistics. The paper is published in a physics journal, so the journal itself is not a good place to make some of these arguments.
Is the idea of a non-invasive test worthwhile? Yes! Absolutely. But they didn't show that it was a good test of clinical utility. They showed that it could measure differences in protein concentrations from saliva. That's not nothing, but that's it. Now, if that is an appropriate way to differentiate patients is a completely different question and requires substantially more testing (and orders of magnitude more patients).
But, that's not really the point. They aren't trying to diagnose cancer vs. healthy.
Error bars here are absolutely necessary. Two reasons: First, you want to know the approximate ranges for each group in Figures 3 and 5. Not showing them is misleading. Secondly -- you actually also want error bars for each patient sample. I'd expect for there to be at least three replicates for each saliva sample to show that the strips are able to consistently measure a known value from each sample.
I also mis-read part of the paper the first time. For the HER2 cases, there aren't 4 negative samples -- there are 20. There is only one positive sample. Part of the problem is really how they are presenting the data -- it is not all clear what they are testing. But, there is only one HER2+ sample in the mix.
One... N=1.
Samples include:
* Non-cancer: 4
* In situ cancer: 3
* Invasive cancer, HER2-: 13
* Invasive cancer, HER2+: 1
What you'd really like to show is that the HER2+ patients could be differentiated from HER2- patients. Which, does look really good, but with only one HER2+ sample, you really can't tell much. (And the presence of so much signal in the HER2- samples raises some very interesting biological/mechanistic questions).
Note: I'm not trying to say that the authors of the study are wrong or are trying to deliberately mislead people. There is so much here that could have been corrected to make this a much stronger paper. To me, this seems like a paper where the authors are likely engineers and not that well versed in biomedical statistics. The paper is published in a physics journal, so the journal itself is not a good place to make some of these arguments.
Is the idea of a non-invasive test worthwhile? Yes! Absolutely. But they didn't show that it was a good test of clinical utility. They showed that it could measure differences in protein concentrations from saliva. That's not nothing, but that's it. Now, if that is an appropriate way to differentiate patients is a completely different question and requires substantially more testing (and orders of magnitude more patients).
> This is an unbalanced study. As such, it doesn't tell you anything about the ability to differentiate between the three populations.
Complete Nonsense
> That is not enough to be able to adequately know range of measurable values in the population of patients w/o cancer.
True. But it is a promising initial signal that the distribution of non cancerous folks is probably very different from the invasive cancer folks. The effect size here is huge. “Range” is less interesting than “Distribution”
> Error bars here are absolutely necessary. Two reasons: First, you want to know the approximate ranges for each group in Figures 3 and 5. Not showing them is misleading.
You don’t really need error bars when you’re showing all of a small number of data points. But sure whatever
> Secondly -- you actually also want error bars for each patient sample. I'd expect for there to be at least three replicates for each saliva sample to show that the strips are able to consistently measure a known value from each sample.
Would be nice. Sounds like they did ten measurements per.
> What you'd really like to show is that the HER2+ patients could be differentiated from HER2- patients. Which, does look really good, but with only one HER2+ sample, you really can't tell much. (And the presence of so much signal in the HER2- samples raises some very interesting biological/mechanistic questions).
I’m not clear why you’re saying HER+ vs HER- is the important difference here.
Complete Nonsense
> That is not enough to be able to adequately know range of measurable values in the population of patients w/o cancer.
True. But it is a promising initial signal that the distribution of non cancerous folks is probably very different from the invasive cancer folks. The effect size here is huge. “Range” is less interesting than “Distribution”
> Error bars here are absolutely necessary. Two reasons: First, you want to know the approximate ranges for each group in Figures 3 and 5. Not showing them is misleading.
You don’t really need error bars when you’re showing all of a small number of data points. But sure whatever
> Secondly -- you actually also want error bars for each patient sample. I'd expect for there to be at least three replicates for each saliva sample to show that the strips are able to consistently measure a known value from each sample.
Would be nice. Sounds like they did ten measurements per.
> What you'd really like to show is that the HER2+ patients could be differentiated from HER2- patients. Which, does look really good, but with only one HER2+ sample, you really can't tell much. (And the presence of so much signal in the HER2- samples raises some very interesting biological/mechanistic questions).
I’m not clear why you’re saying HER+ vs HER- is the important difference here.
Look, you obviously have your opinions here. I'm not sure just saying "Complete nonsense" at things is really all that helpful.
What I said ("it doesn't tell you anything about the ability to differentiate between the three populations") is quite correct. This study shows that there is a difference between the groups of samples tested with their HER2 test strip, with a one-way p-value of ~0.002.
I'm not convinced that the samples are representative of their populations. The number of non-cancer samples too low.
>* You don’t really need error bars when you’re showing all of a small number of data points.*
Error bars are visually helpful ways to show that the group values overlap. Which, in this case, they do (I did replot this data to confirm).
>* Would be nice. Sounds like they did ten measurements per.*
This is for one test. They sampled the test strip 10 times. I mean they should have tested each sample on at least 3 different test strips to get a mean value for the sample. This is a paper that is trying to say that their test strips are accurate, so it would make sense to test them multiple times.
>I’m not clear why you’re saying HER+ vs HER- is the important difference here.
I'm not sure what they are trying to claim in there paper... are they trying to say that they can diagnose breast cancer (which would requires many more biomarkers), or are they trying to say that they can differentiate between HER2+ and HER2- cancers (which would be more appropriate for a HER2 test).
The other biomarker has even more overlap, so not sure how helpful that would be.
Really, I think they are also missing an opportunity -- the bigger use for me would be in longitudinal testing. If they could show changes in signal over time for a particular patient that corresponded to treatment status -- that would be a great use for a cheap non-invasive test.
What I said ("it doesn't tell you anything about the ability to differentiate between the three populations") is quite correct. This study shows that there is a difference between the groups of samples tested with their HER2 test strip, with a one-way p-value of ~0.002.
I'm not convinced that the samples are representative of their populations. The number of non-cancer samples too low.
>* You don’t really need error bars when you’re showing all of a small number of data points.*
Error bars are visually helpful ways to show that the group values overlap. Which, in this case, they do (I did replot this data to confirm).
>* Would be nice. Sounds like they did ten measurements per.*
This is for one test. They sampled the test strip 10 times. I mean they should have tested each sample on at least 3 different test strips to get a mean value for the sample. This is a paper that is trying to say that their test strips are accurate, so it would make sense to test them multiple times.
>I’m not clear why you’re saying HER+ vs HER- is the important difference here.
I'm not sure what they are trying to claim in there paper... are they trying to say that they can diagnose breast cancer (which would requires many more biomarkers), or are they trying to say that they can differentiate between HER2+ and HER2- cancers (which would be more appropriate for a HER2 test).
The other biomarker has even more overlap, so not sure how helpful that would be.
Really, I think they are also missing an opportunity -- the bigger use for me would be in longitudinal testing. If they could show changes in signal over time for a particular patient that corresponded to treatment status -- that would be a great use for a cheap non-invasive test.
> Look, you obviously have your opinions here. I'm not sure just saying "Complete nonsense" at things is really all that helpful.
> What I said ("it doesn't tell you anything about the ability to differentiate between the three populations") is quite correct. This study shows that there is a difference between the groups of samples tested with their HER2 test strip, with a one-way p-value of ~0.002.
You claimed this was the implication of an unbalanced study. I’m sorry but that is a complete non sequitur. It is nonsense. Most of everything else I disagree with but isn’t nonsense.
> I'm not sure what they are trying to claim in there paper... are they trying to say that they can diagnose breast cancer (which would requires many more biomarkers), or are they trying to say that they can differentiate between HER2+ and HER2- cancers (which would be more appropriate for a HER2 test).
They are simply showing different distributions of tests for different populations and observing that, foremost, the invasive cancer ones have a significantly different distribution; and that it’s shows promise as a test for the future.
You claimed this was the implication of an unbalanced study. I’m sorry but that is a complete non sequitur. It is nonsense. Most of everything else I disagree with but isn’t nonsense.
> I'm not sure what they are trying to claim in there paper... are they trying to say that they can diagnose breast cancer (which would requires many more biomarkers), or are they trying to say that they can differentiate between HER2+ and HER2- cancers (which would be more appropriate for a HER2 test).
They are simply showing different distributions of tests for different populations and observing that, foremost, the invasive cancer ones have a significantly different distribution; and that it’s shows promise as a test for the future.
It's been a while since I took statistics, but isn't the whole point of <thing> testing that it needs to have a high Bayes factor, and to be confident that said Bayes factor is high?
In this case, and my lack of understanding in both bio and stats is showing here, we're trying to develop a test for breast cancer. An ideal test will have high sensitivity and specificity, and a tight confidence interval for both of those numbers. This way we can be confident that a positive/negative test actually moves our priors meaningfully in either direction.
I guess my question/comment is more on the fact that I don't see how any of the results shown actually translate, as the headline suggests, into a cancer test of high power. The priors for any kind of cancer is pretty low from what I can find, so we need high power tests in both the positive and negative direction to meaningfully effect health outcomes. I can't find any CI numbers in the paper, which may just be me not reading it closely enough, but it doesn't help my confidence.
In this case, and my lack of understanding in both bio and stats is showing here, we're trying to develop a test for breast cancer. An ideal test will have high sensitivity and specificity, and a tight confidence interval for both of those numbers. This way we can be confident that a positive/negative test actually moves our priors meaningfully in either direction.
I guess my question/comment is more on the fact that I don't see how any of the results shown actually translate, as the headline suggests, into a cancer test of high power. The priors for any kind of cancer is pretty low from what I can find, so we need high power tests in both the positive and negative direction to meaningfully effect health outcomes. I can't find any CI numbers in the paper, which may just be me not reading it closely enough, but it doesn't help my confidence.
Suppose you had cancer and could roll a die, and if the die came up six, it would tell you with high certainty you had cancer, and if it came up as anything else, it would tell you nothing.
If the test is very cheap, it’s probably a great test presuming you get to see the dice roll itself.
The cost and invasiveness of the test is important.
If the test is very cheap, it’s probably a great test presuming you get to see the dice roll itself.
The cost and invasiveness of the test is important.
The problem here is that the underlying and unknown correlations in the sample (aka people) is that they are NOT independent.
The larger sample sizes are a ... sort-of "proxy" ... to overwhelm underlying latent correlations.
The whole thing is actually a subtle sort-of generalization of the "Prosecutor's Fallacy".
So skepticism with the small sample sizes is absolutely warranted, unless some strong evidence is shown indicating mechanism-based independence.
The larger sample sizes are a ... sort-of "proxy" ... to overwhelm underlying latent correlations.
The whole thing is actually a subtle sort-of generalization of the "Prosecutor's Fallacy".
So skepticism with the small sample sizes is absolutely warranted, unless some strong evidence is shown indicating mechanism-based independence.
I feel like you’re taking a very roundabout way to describe the concept of sample bias. So long as it’s a random sample, this is accounted for in the statistics. Yes, we should still get more data all the same.
And this result probably helps the funding to get more patients. I’ve never worked in clinical trials but it seems like it would be so tiresome.
I ran many clinical trials during my career as an academic neurosurgical anesthesiologist. "... it seems like it would be so tiresome" is accurate; it's also exhausting in terms of the huge amount of time and effort required to get a study approved by the institutional review board; getting informed consent from prospective patients after an exhaustive explanation repeated over and over to each individual; actually doing the study; organizing the results; doing the statistical analysis required; writing the paper; waiting months to hear back from the journal's reviewers, often receiving a rejection letter; resubmitting the paper to another journal, sometimes several more; after having it accepted, revising the paper per the reviewers' comments before resubmission, sometimes going back and forth for months.
You can find my published papers here:
https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=5DdrMc8AAAAJ&hl=en
You can find my published papers here:
https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=5DdrMc8AAAAJ&hl=en
So how do you feel about it? :) Seriously, what are you feelings about it after all those experiences?
You forgot the end of the story: After all that, it's done and published, and then a random person with no expertise and who barely read the paper posts on HN: the sample size is too small - as if you were in your first week of statistics 101 - and therefore the whole thing must be invalid! :)
You forgot the end of the story: After all that, it's done and published, and then a random person with no expertise and who barely read the paper posts on HN: the sample size is too small - as if you were in your first week of statistics 101 - and therefore the whole thing must be invalid! :)
How do I feel about it? My feelings after all those experiences?
I dunno... that was me then, I guess: hard core academic with a drive/compulsion to publish good work.
I admit to being amused by comments here about statistics by people who wouldn't know a Bonferroni correction from a bonfire.
I dunno... that was me then, I guess: hard core academic with a drive/compulsion to publish good work.
I admit to being amused by comments here about statistics by people who wouldn't know a Bonferroni correction from a bonfire.
It's still a nonzero sample size, and if anything, says two things:
(a) We should do more tests to increase N
(b) If a $5 device tests you positive, maybe you should go get checked out for $5000 or whatever the doctors charge you (because insurance often only pays AFTER "shit happens" and often does not pay to test "whether shit might happen"), that you wouldn't have thought of doing otherwise.
(a) We should do more tests to increase N
(b) If a $5 device tests you positive, maybe you should go get checked out for $5000 or whatever the doctors charge you (because insurance often only pays AFTER "shit happens" and often does not pay to test "whether shit might happen"), that you wouldn't have thought of doing otherwise.
> Table I shows the median and the range of digital readings by disease status and overall p-value using the Kruskal–Wallis test to examine if there exist statistically significant distinctions among two or more groups. The overall p-value is significant while the value for HER2 is 0.002, which show the probability of false-positive detection. This indicates that this sensor technology is an efficient way to detect HER2 biomarkers in saliva.
> ... In Fig. 5, the test results for detecting CA15-3 of the human samples are displayed. The digital reading decreases from the healthy group to the invasive breast cancer group, indicating an increase in CA15-3 concentration. The median, the range by disease status, and overall p-values analyzed with the Kruskal–Wallis test for the CA15-3 test are listed in Table I. The overall p-value for CA15-3 is 0.005, indicating that this device provides an efficient way to detect the salivary biomarkers related to breast cancer.
> ... In Fig. 5, the test results for detecting CA15-3 of the human samples are displayed. The digital reading decreases from the healthy group to the invasive breast cancer group, indicating an increase in CA15-3 concentration. The median, the range by disease status, and overall p-values analyzed with the Kruskal–Wallis test for the CA15-3 test are listed in Table I. The overall p-value for CA15-3 is 0.005, indicating that this device provides an efficient way to detect the salivary biomarkers related to breast cancer.
You'd need a much larger n to determine the false positive rate. Sensitivity by itself isn't very useful.
That’s a bit harsh. It’s an exploratory study testing a new paradigm.
It's only as harsh as the the headline is rose-tinted.
"Exploratory study shows promise" is better. When n=21, flipping a coin as about as accurate.
"Exploratory study shows promise" is better. When n=21, flipping a coin as about as accurate.
This statement belies a fundamental misunderstanding of statistics on your part.
If you're really good at statistics, you can just intuit what seems like a sufficient N. This is actually a powerful statistical method because you can vary your intuition depending on whether you want to believe the study was well-powered or not, enabling you to easily discard Bad Evidence and include Good Evidence.
Few understand this.
Few understand this.
You don't intuit it, you calculate it. If you claim to be able to predict coin flips with a specific accuracy I can give you the exact number of trails N you need to be x% confident.
If you claim 90% accuracy and I want to be 95% confident with the standard alpha of 0.05 you need 38 trials.
If you claim 90% accuracy and I want to be 95% confident with the standard alpha of 0.05 you need 38 trials.
No, that’s utter nonsense. Statistical power is well defined and the required N to reliably detect an effect is a function of its effect size, which is the thing that wannabe statisticians don’t understand.
> you can vary your intuition depending on whether you want to believe the study
I suspect it is deliberate nonsense.
I suspect it is deliberate nonsense.
> I suspect it is deliberate nonsense.
But is that your intuition talking?
But is that your intuition talking?
Yah headline jumping the gun a bit, but hopefully this motivates funding to get a bigger study / refine the technique.
[deleted]
> We tried it with 21 people
The new Theranos is here again
The new Theranos is here again
Not quite. Theranos was stating that they were capable of doing what was impossible prior. The real issue with Theranos was physics. A single drop of blood is simply not a large enough sample for them to do all the testing they claimed. As in, impossible with today's tech and in the near future.
These folks are just stating that, "so far, this looks promising".
At least, thats my read. YMMV.
These folks are just stating that, "so far, this looks promising".
At least, thats my read. YMMV.
It is important to point out that what they claimed to do is not technically impossible actually.
They just didn't do it, and lied about it.
That was the real problem.
It's very unfortunate, because it is technically possible, just very difficult to achieve, even in academia (so it won't be done first in industry).
This was the absolute worst part of Theranos, is that they deter others from trying to make headway in the space at all.
It's very unfortunate, because it is technically possible, just very difficult to achieve, even in academia (so it won't be done first in industry).
This was the absolute worst part of Theranos, is that they deter others from trying to make headway in the space at all.
I don't believe they could run a battery of 81+ tests on a drop of blood. There simply isn't enough there.
Why do you think they take tubes of blood for testing, currently?
The issue is concentrations and the presence of them in sufficient amounts to be detected reliably and consistently.
edit: typo.. words are hard.
The issue is concentrations and the presence of them in sufficient amounts to be detected reliably and consistently.
edit: typo.. words are hard.
It's because that's what the equipment is designed to use, and yes it provides more reliable results with the current technology. Much of the equipment used in healthcare relies on very old technology. This certainly does not mean it cannot be improved to work with less amount of material.
There are hand held sequencers for your phone now (minIon) that are very cheap and work. There are also large multimillion dollar bench top machines on the same technology from nanopore. Both are very new technology compared to what we used in early 2000s, and offer various different features and certainties from the analysis.
However, it is foolish to say that the minIon is impossible. It works. It's just less resolute than other systems.
This is true for many systems which people cry "Theranos" about. Their issue was lying. That was the problem.
There are hand held sequencers for your phone now (minIon) that are very cheap and work. There are also large multimillion dollar bench top machines on the same technology from nanopore. Both are very new technology compared to what we used in early 2000s, and offer various different features and certainties from the analysis.
However, it is foolish to say that the minIon is impossible. It works. It's just less resolute than other systems.
This is true for many systems which people cry "Theranos" about. Their issue was lying. That was the problem.
Less resolute works in some cases and that was never at issue. The problem is, less resolute doesn't work for some things and when the sample size is a drop of blood, we're talking insanely small, as in impossible, sample size for some tests.
Low concentrations will NOT be reliably detected. That's part of why such a comparatively large sample is taken when you go for the traditional testing.
I'm not even going into the simple fact that once chems are introduced into the sample to generate reactions, the sample can't continue to be used.
Exactly how many times do you think we can split a single drop of blood?
Edit: good talk, even if we disagree. :)
Low concentrations will NOT be reliably detected. That's part of why such a comparatively large sample is taken when you go for the traditional testing.
I'm not even going into the simple fact that once chems are introduced into the sample to generate reactions, the sample can't continue to be used.
Exactly how many times do you think we can split a single drop of blood?
Edit: good talk, even if we disagree. :)
No, not at all. Polar opposites.
Theranos was actual lies. TFA is just being honest about a low sample size.
Theranos was actual lies. TFA is just being honest about a low sample size.
Without a larger n you can't really tell what the fp rate is and that means that the accuracy figure isn't very useful. If accuracy holds in light of a false positive rate that is much lower than other tests then this may well be very useful. But you can not conclude that at all based on the evidence presented.
If somebody claims: our device "accurately tests", and we discover later that "In fact the tests hadn't been done still" (at a meaningful way), It should be taken as a red flag. Specially when it came in the same package with "to make lots of tests would be really cheap" (but for some reason they didn't tried it).
Maybe be a great, honest work, brilliant step?. Yes.
But please don't claim that your model is reproducible if you didn't ever tried seriously to reproduce it first. What if the results are just a random effect?. What if the test says just positive most of the time? The test negative response has been tested in a control group of 4 people? This is 20 bucks well spent.
--At this moment-- isn't different than other thousand projects that seemed too good to be true, took the money and soon vanished. I hope to be wrong.
Maybe be a great, honest work, brilliant step?. Yes.
But please don't claim that your model is reproducible if you didn't ever tried seriously to reproduce it first. What if the results are just a random effect?. What if the test says just positive most of the time? The test negative response has been tested in a control group of 4 people? This is 20 bucks well spent.
--At this moment-- isn't different than other thousand projects that seemed too good to be true, took the money and soon vanished. I hope to be wrong.
> didn't ever tried seriously to reproduce it first
Maybe they found something worth testing and just need more funding to actually do the tests?
I have no problem with early free speech about "I found something interesting" as long as you're honest about the sample size and don't misrepresent it.
Maybe they found something worth testing and just need more funding to actually do the tests?
I have no problem with early free speech about "I found something interesting" as long as you're honest about the sample size and don't misrepresent it.
[deleted]
I appreciate the links but I think this actually misses the point. The novelty isn't in diagnosis of cancer but in sensitivity/cost-efficacy in detection of known biomarkers for breast cancer (and associated risks of recurrence, etc). I'm not familiar with how common ELISA-based HER2 testing takes place, but it seems like it has some impact on drug decisions[^1].
In terms of applicability, it depends on whether or not ELISA is in fact the current standard of care, but it could be useful in low-resource settings where you don't have lab personnel trained to carry out those assays, and drug choice is also restricted by limited availability.
Additionally, there's a point-of-care argument as well. Since breast cancer does benefit from early detection, I can see a future in which biomarker testing is a more regular thing, and high saliva concentrations are flagged. At the very least as something worth bringing up at one's next appointment or wtv.
[^1]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7033231/
In terms of applicability, it depends on whether or not ELISA is in fact the current standard of care, but it could be useful in low-resource settings where you don't have lab personnel trained to carry out those assays, and drug choice is also restricted by limited availability.
Additionally, there's a point-of-care argument as well. Since breast cancer does benefit from early detection, I can see a future in which biomarker testing is a more regular thing, and high saliva concentrations are flagged. At the very least as something worth bringing up at one's next appointment or wtv.
[^1]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7033231/
The standard of care in the US is immunohistochemistry (IHC), with FISH testing in equivocal cases so not really ELISA based.
HER2 testing is done on all breast cancers as it affects treatment choices though the majority of breast cancers are not HER2 positive. (HER2 is also expressed in some normal tissue (notably cardiac) and is also seen in other cancers as well).
HER2 testing is done on all breast cancers as it affects treatment choices though the majority of breast cancers are not HER2 positive. (HER2 is also expressed in some normal tissue (notably cardiac) and is also seen in other cancers as well).
Totally agree!
Figures 3 and 5 from the paper (https://pubs.aip.org/avs/jvb/article/42/2/023202/3262988/Hig...) have overlap between all the groups. The same measured output could have come from any of the non-cancer, or known-cancer, participants. While the means of these groups look nicely separable, that overlap means there will be significant false positives or false negatives. So I'd label the studyfinds headline of this being 'accurate' to be false.
Not at all. The model is quite accurate. In fact, with the distribution of samples that they have a model that predicts all cases as having cancer would also be very accurate. It would get 17/21 predictions right. The model lacks precision. I suspect that even with a fairly high cut off point the model would still produce a bevvy of false positive predictions due to that. It might still be useful as a screening step if they can increase the sensitivity further, but you would still rely upon further tests to get a true diagnosis.
It also only looks at HER2 and CA15-3 (aka MUC1) expression - what about breast cancers that don't express either of these?
I realize this is an early technology and I think it should continue to be explored, but I would anticipate that if compared head to head with screening mammograms, it would be inferior.
For patients with relapsed disease, this kind of technology would be neat to non-invasively re-assess biomarker status but as a screening tool, I find it lacking (and certainly a positive screening will require dedicated imaging and biopsy anyway).
I realize this is an early technology and I think it should continue to be explored, but I would anticipate that if compared head to head with screening mammograms, it would be inferior.
For patients with relapsed disease, this kind of technology would be neat to non-invasively re-assess biomarker status but as a screening tool, I find it lacking (and certainly a positive screening will require dedicated imaging and biopsy anyway).
Backwards. The distributions here imply it will be a high precision model with not great recall.
Sure we can be technically more surgical in our terminology, but GP is addressing the usage of 'accuracy' in the news headline. In that context, 'accuracy' is kinda a catchall term for both accuracy and precision.
It's a bit difficult to say, isn't it? The headline is using the term accuracy correctly, the reader might be ascribing the meaning you are to it, especially if they are non technical. As was the parent comment.
My goal in pointing out the difference was not to be snarky. It was to point out the very real statistical consequences. Any model can be accurate on a sufficiently biased dataset, but what matters once a screening test hits the real world are the precision (positive predictive value) and negative predictive value. These are the hurdles that the test will have to pass to see widespread adoption.
My goal in pointing out the difference was not to be snarky. It was to point out the very real statistical consequences. Any model can be accurate on a sufficiently biased dataset, but what matters once a screening test hits the real world are the precision (positive predictive value) and negative predictive value. These are the hurdles that the test will have to pass to see widespread adoption.
Exactly. This is the real test and so far we simply do not know the answer. It's a nice first step but the headline is simply not justified. But whether solar power, wind power or cancer it's 99.99% of the time (possibly more nines) far less impressive by the time all of the data is in. And that's fine, but headline writers seem to be stuck in a hype cycle.
Theyre not being surgical in the terminology. Accuracy and precision are the two things that matter for a diagnostic test. High accuracy, low precision = screener.
>> HER2 and/or CA15-3 in serum are essential biomarkers used in breast cancer diagnosis.
This is WRONG, it is used as an indicator, NOT a diagnosis. In fact, I have personal experience that CA15-3 is not always in indicator of anything. You first measure a baseline, and use it for reference.
Also there's no HER2 expression in TNBC.
Can this be used for possible early detection? Maybe, but it will not be an exact science.
This is WRONG, it is used as an indicator, NOT a diagnosis. In fact, I have personal experience that CA15-3 is not always in indicator of anything. You first measure a baseline, and use it for reference.
Also there's no HER2 expression in TNBC.
Can this be used for possible early detection? Maybe, but it will not be an exact science.
https://pubs.aip.org/avs/jvb/article/42/2/023202/3262988/Hig...
Discusses sensitivity but not accuracy or rates of false positive/negative.
Discusses sensitivity but not accuracy or rates of false positive/negative.
Seems like this was originally built for SARS-CoV-2. Here's the paper from 2021: https://pubs.aip.org/avs/jvb/article-abstract/39/3/033202/59...
and then in 2022 for detecting oral cancer: https://pubs.aip.org/avs/jvb/article/41/1/013201/2866658/Hig...
and then in 2022 for detecting oral cancer: https://pubs.aip.org/avs/jvb/article/41/1/013201/2866658/Hig...
> The study is published in the Journal of Vacuum Science & Technology B
Dare I ask why?
Dare I ask why?
Thin films grown in vacuums are how you get graphene layers and FETs that appear to be the basis of the technology here. Someone with a vacuum deposition system would be the prime candidate to develop a custom thin film to target adsorption of the molecules that they're trying to sense.
This part of the study describes what they implemented:
>Instead of using the transistors as the sensors, which need to be disposed of after each use, a system with a reusable printed circuit board (PCB) containing a MOSFET and disposable test strips were employed. In this approach, synchronized double-pulses were applied at the gate and drain terminals of the transistor to ensure that the channel charge does not accumulate, and there is no need to reset the drain and gate paths to mitigate the charge accumulation at the gate and drain of the sensing transistor for sequential testing. With the double-pulse approach, it only takes a few seconds to show the result of the test, due to the rapid response of the functionalized test strips and resulting electrical signal output. As an example, the LoD has been demonstrated to reach 10−15 g/ml and the sensitivity to 78/dec for COVID-19 detection. Similar approaches have been used to detect cerebrospinal fluid (CSF), cardiac troponin I, and Zika virus.27–30
> In this work, use of this double-pulse measurement approach to detect HER2 and CA15-3 in saliva samples collected from healthy volunteers and breast cancer patients was investigated. The voltage output responses of the transistor correlated to the HER2 and CA15-3 concentrations, detection limits, and sensing sensitivity were determined.
>Instead of using the transistors as the sensors, which need to be disposed of after each use, a system with a reusable printed circuit board (PCB) containing a MOSFET and disposable test strips were employed. In this approach, synchronized double-pulses were applied at the gate and drain terminals of the transistor to ensure that the channel charge does not accumulate, and there is no need to reset the drain and gate paths to mitigate the charge accumulation at the gate and drain of the sensing transistor for sequential testing. With the double-pulse approach, it only takes a few seconds to show the result of the test, due to the rapid response of the functionalized test strips and resulting electrical signal output. As an example, the LoD has been demonstrated to reach 10−15 g/ml and the sensitivity to 78/dec for COVID-19 detection. Similar approaches have been used to detect cerebrospinal fluid (CSF), cardiac troponin I, and Zika virus.27–30
> In this work, use of this double-pulse measurement approach to detect HER2 and CA15-3 in saliva samples collected from healthy volunteers and breast cancer patients was investigated. The voltage output responses of the transistor correlated to the HER2 and CA15-3 concentrations, detection limits, and sensing sensitivity were determined.
Someone has to actually commercialize this and get it approved and it will cost far more than $5. As part of that they have to demonstrate that it is, ya know, useful (vs existing methods).
The PCB picture above the words "...The printed circuit board used in the saliva-based biosensor,..." makes me think the article is a scam. As a electronics engineer the word labels seem to be not especially relevant to the invention. Who makes boards with lots DIP chips?
Yea, I was really curious about those.
I mean… even if we were talking some special hardware, that’s still PLC territory.
My reading was this isn’t $5, but could be made to be $5.
This is clearly a prototype.
I mean… even if we were talking some special hardware, that’s still PLC territory.
My reading was this isn’t $5, but could be made to be $5.
This is clearly a prototype.
Underlying research about salivary biomarker detection https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6566681/
Would a US company have enough financial incentive to front the cost of FDA approval in the US?
I'm guessing it is expensive to jump through all of the hoops. Without a patent, why would a company pay for this?
I'm guessing it is expensive to jump through all of the hoops. Without a patent, why would a company pay for this?
As a non-invasive diagnostic equipment, let us say it is akin to a pregnancy test, or a creatine in urine test. That puts it in Class 1, and may be exempt from a lot of the hoops a medicine would go through.
There are a little over 6,100 hospitals in the US at any given time. That means roughly $30,000 in cost to produce to provide every hospital with one, using the cheapest of cheapest parts. Presumably, you'd want higher end components and things like a shell casing to protect from spills, static, etc. maybe the cost is $120k.
You could sell these for $100 each, and maybe make $5 million. That's a decent amount of money for a tiny business, but a pittance for even a small business that needs to pay salaries, lawyers, etc.
In reality, they'd probably go for much more- let's say $10k each, plus $100 for each test strip. Still easily in range for the budget of most US hospitals.
The real question is, if breast cancer is suspected, is this test any better than imaging using equipment the hospital already has?
Can it detect all types, or the degree that it is progressing?
I suspect the utility in a clinical setting is not high enough to really change clinical practices any.
There are a little over 6,100 hospitals in the US at any given time. That means roughly $30,000 in cost to produce to provide every hospital with one, using the cheapest of cheapest parts. Presumably, you'd want higher end components and things like a shell casing to protect from spills, static, etc. maybe the cost is $120k.
You could sell these for $100 each, and maybe make $5 million. That's a decent amount of money for a tiny business, but a pittance for even a small business that needs to pay salaries, lawyers, etc.
In reality, they'd probably go for much more- let's say $10k each, plus $100 for each test strip. Still easily in range for the budget of most US hospitals.
The real question is, if breast cancer is suspected, is this test any better than imaging using equipment the hospital already has?
Can it detect all types, or the degree that it is progressing?
I suspect the utility in a clinical setting is not high enough to really change clinical practices any.
Huh? The electronics is cheap and trivial. All the science is in those strips.
Usually with medical innovations, the idea is patented and the product is sold well above cost of production. e.g. this $5 device could be sold for $100 each... large profit margin.
If there is no patent, and no in-place infrastructure already producing the device, then yes, it's unlikely to see rapid scale up by manufacturers.
Though if it's really that cheap to produce, I'm sure it will come onto market in some form (whether through charitable foundations or otherwise). All assuming that the device is actually as efficacious as the study implies (with a small sample size).
If there is no patent, and no in-place infrastructure already producing the device, then yes, it's unlikely to see rapid scale up by manufacturers.
Though if it's really that cheap to produce, I'm sure it will come onto market in some form (whether through charitable foundations or otherwise). All assuming that the device is actually as efficacious as the study implies (with a small sample size).
[deleted]
> employs paper test strips coated with specific antibodies. These antibodies interact with cancer biomarkers [from] a drop of saliva
> “[...] cost-effective, with the test strip costing just a few cents and the reusable circuit board priced at $5,” Wan says.
That is cool: the 5$ isn't even the cost of the test, it's the one-time cost of your lab equipment. Of course, per sibling comments, the efficacy has yet to be seen, but even a few percent more early detections due to frequent testing would be a win
> “[...] cost-effective, with the test strip costing just a few cents and the reusable circuit board priced at $5,” Wan says.
That is cool: the 5$ isn't even the cost of the test, it's the one-time cost of your lab equipment. Of course, per sibling comments, the efficacy has yet to be seen, but even a few percent more early detections due to frequent testing would be a win
"but even a few percent more early detections due to frequent testing would be a win"
This is not the current medical thought on early screenings for various cancers. It used to be and I was confused about it until very recently. Indeed the medical community is still wrestling with the issue of screening harms. The consensus is shifting that screening should only be done if there is an existing condition or symptom or family history.
https://www.cancer.gov/news-events/cancer-currents-blog/2022...
This is not the current medical thought on early screenings for various cancers. It used to be and I was confused about it until very recently. Indeed the medical community is still wrestling with the issue of screening harms. The consensus is shifting that screening should only be done if there is an existing condition or symptom or family history.
https://www.cancer.gov/news-events/cancer-currents-blog/2022...
That depends on how harmful the screening is, how harmful treatment is, how harmful the disease is, how well the test works, and how common the disease is. (probably more that I'm not aware of)
Most cancer treatments are really nasty. Thus false positives are really bad: you destroy someone's quality of life. The earlier cancer is discovered the better chance that we can use a less harmful treatment (if only because of smaller dose of the harmful drugs)
The current breast cancer screening is an xray - which itself causes cancer (about 1 in 3000 cases of breast cancer discovered by xray wouldn't have got breast cancer in the first place without the screening - the screening is still wroth doing if you are at risk, but don't do it if you are not at risk).
Breast cancer can be deadly, but if caught early it is easy to treat (normally).
The medical concern generally isn't should we test all women for breast cancer, but when do we start testing and how often should we test. If this test is safer than an xray and sensitive enough it can be useful. Avoiding current breast cancer tests is good.
Most cancer treatments are really nasty. Thus false positives are really bad: you destroy someone's quality of life. The earlier cancer is discovered the better chance that we can use a less harmful treatment (if only because of smaller dose of the harmful drugs)
The current breast cancer screening is an xray - which itself causes cancer (about 1 in 3000 cases of breast cancer discovered by xray wouldn't have got breast cancer in the first place without the screening - the screening is still wroth doing if you are at risk, but don't do it if you are not at risk).
Breast cancer can be deadly, but if caught early it is easy to treat (normally).
The medical concern generally isn't should we test all women for breast cancer, but when do we start testing and how often should we test. If this test is safer than an xray and sensitive enough it can be useful. Avoiding current breast cancer tests is good.
You're right that benefits of screening vary widely depending on type of cancer, type of test, and even a patients own co-morbidities. However, there are a lot of inaccuracies in this comment.
False positives on a screening test are bad because you follow a screening test up with a confirmatory test (a biopsy for cancer) - sometimes the procedure for the biopsy results in additional complications and even death in rare cases (and if it's a false positive, a patient goes through all of that for a benign finding).
I want to be very clear that oncologists are not going to start cancer treatment on the results of a screening test, you need confirmation.
False positives on a screening test are bad because you follow a screening test up with a confirmatory test (a biopsy for cancer) - sometimes the procedure for the biopsy results in additional complications and even death in rare cases (and if it's a false positive, a patient goes through all of that for a benign finding).
I want to be very clear that oncologists are not going to start cancer treatment on the results of a screening test, you need confirmation.
>about 1 in 3000 cases of breast cancer discovered by xray wouldn't have got breast cancer in the first place without the screening
I had no idea the risks associated with xrays for breast cancer screenings were that high. Do you have a source (for that 1:3000 assertion) I can read?
I had no idea the risks associated with xrays for breast cancer screenings were that high. Do you have a source (for that 1:3000 assertion) I can read?
Communication with someone who claims to be in the know. It seems reasonable, but I don't have a source and I welcome someone who cares more to go more in depth.
> Most cancer treatments are really nasty. Thus false positives are really bad
I was imagining this cheap self test like covid self tests: you don't start taking chemo, but it's an indication to see a doctor tomorrow if not today and get it checked out properly
But you do raise a good point about overtreatment which I had forgotten while writing my previous comment. Whether that applies to diseases that are reliable to confirm manually and will simply kill you if you're late to the party is another matter, but I had forgotten to take it into account at all
I was imagining this cheap self test like covid self tests: you don't start taking chemo, but it's an indication to see a doctor tomorrow if not today and get it checked out properly
But you do raise a good point about overtreatment which I had forgotten while writing my previous comment. Whether that applies to diseases that are reliable to confirm manually and will simply kill you if you're late to the party is another matter, but I had forgotten to take it into account at all
Using the performance in the paper, the false positive rate means the current test in clinically useless (due to harm from screening and follow-up). Refining the test requires improving the selection of biomarkers and antibodies, not the hardware (which looks great).
No offense, but as someone that makes hardware devices, that hardware does not look great. It looks the very opposite of great.
Through hole DIP array? This is a prototype and it makes me skeptical of the whole thing. There is nothing a single $5 FPGA couldn’t do. So why not start there? I suspect because the people that made this doesn’t know electronics or programming well - but then also didn’t find someone that did.
This was put together the way long way, and it’s strange to me.
Through hole DIP array? This is a prototype and it makes me skeptical of the whole thing. There is nothing a single $5 FPGA couldn’t do. So why not start there? I suspect because the people that made this doesn’t know electronics or programming well - but then also didn’t find someone that did.
This was put together the way long way, and it’s strange to me.
The publication is linked in the article [0]. Even if it's only for HER2 patients, even if it's only useful as a first-pass test, this is still great news.
The experimental design seems very small scale though. 17 cancer positive samples (of which only 1 was HER2 positive), 4 control. Since the strips are focused on HER2 detection I read this as "in 1 out of 1 samples, our test detected HER2 overexpression" but maybe I misread it.
[0] https://pubs.aip.org/avs/jvb/article/42/2/023202/3262988/Hig...
The experimental design seems very small scale though. 17 cancer positive samples (of which only 1 was HER2 positive), 4 control. Since the strips are focused on HER2 detection I read this as "in 1 out of 1 samples, our test detected HER2 overexpression" but maybe I misread it.
[0] https://pubs.aip.org/avs/jvb/article/42/2/023202/3262988/Hig...
I could not assess the validity of this paper if my life depended on it.
But this is what I do know: Given that the University of Florida is a public institution and the governor of the state is anti-science and promotes anti-science policies and practices, my immediate reaction to this paper’s news is negative. Reasonable? Probably not. I can’t be the only one who would react in this way.
This matters for two reasons. First, each of us has limited time and capacity to care about things, to investigate them more. Second, if we don’t recognize our biases, we may ignore important and useful information.
But this is what I do know: Given that the University of Florida is a public institution and the governor of the state is anti-science and promotes anti-science policies and practices, my immediate reaction to this paper’s news is negative. Reasonable? Probably not. I can’t be the only one who would react in this way.
This matters for two reasons. First, each of us has limited time and capacity to care about things, to investigate them more. Second, if we don’t recognize our biases, we may ignore important and useful information.
Largely BS.
1) These are not clinical biomarkers used for detection of cancer now, and in fact, they are known NOT to be clinical biomarkers useful for detecting cancer. 2) This is a publication focusing on the device/method, not the clinical application. It is published in a journal of vacuum science, not a cancer biology or medical journal. 3) There are several inaccurate things in the paper, one being that they state that current technology requires 1-2 weeks to measure either biomarker. Wrong, clinical tests exist today that can perform those immunoassays in minutes on large automated analyzers. 4) This isn't fraud, it's just a really typically overhyped report of a novel device/meausrement strategy (and it's not that novel) that targets a biomarker that has a role in cancer, and then some mass media picks it up and says that they have "the test for cancer". This happens all the time. 5) This should maybe be considered a proof of concept about the electronics of their detection strategy, since the immunoassay component is known (immunoassays to both biomarkers are not only published, but commercialized) and the clinical use of the biomarkers is not at all diagnostic for cancer or useful for screening.
1) These are not clinical biomarkers used for detection of cancer now, and in fact, they are known NOT to be clinical biomarkers useful for detecting cancer. 2) This is a publication focusing on the device/method, not the clinical application. It is published in a journal of vacuum science, not a cancer biology or medical journal. 3) There are several inaccurate things in the paper, one being that they state that current technology requires 1-2 weeks to measure either biomarker. Wrong, clinical tests exist today that can perform those immunoassays in minutes on large automated analyzers. 4) This isn't fraud, it's just a really typically overhyped report of a novel device/meausrement strategy (and it's not that novel) that targets a biomarker that has a role in cancer, and then some mass media picks it up and says that they have "the test for cancer". This happens all the time. 5) This should maybe be considered a proof of concept about the electronics of their detection strategy, since the immunoassay component is known (immunoassays to both biomarkers are not only published, but commercialized) and the clinical use of the biomarkers is not at all diagnostic for cancer or useful for screening.
As a reference. Currently an MRI scan can go from $400-$2000 (mostly covered by insurance)
https://scan.com/body-parts/breast
An MRI machine cost arounds $350.000 on average. https://www.blockimaging.com
An MRI machine cost arounds $350.000 on average. https://www.blockimaging.com
A device such as this would never replace an MRI scan. The information provided is for screening purposes, at best.
Also, diagnosis would typically be done using a mammography. The cost of such a scan is lower - around $100[0].
[0]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4142190/
Also, diagnosis would typically be done using a mammography. The cost of such a scan is lower - around $100[0].
[0]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4142190/
It doesn't have to replace it in all cases. If it can give a good indication that we don't have to do a MRI that is already a good thing.
That's right, that's typically what is meant by screening purposes [0], apologies if it wasn't clear.
[0] https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/nhs-screening/
[0] https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/nhs-screening/
The unclear part was more the phrase "would never replace an MRI scan". But it's clear now.
Diagnosis is done via biopsy.
That is correct, my bad. The next screen after a test like this would likely be a mammography, and only after that would a biopsy be done if anything suspicious was seen.
Better reference would be an ELISA test (which is actually brought up as the reference in the paper)[^1]. That seems to also run about $5 per kit per antigen[^2]. However this device seems to only require the test strip to be replaced, whereas you can only run ELISA once per strip/reagents. Also note that ELISA is harder to run so you have personnel costs and also this device claims higher sensitivity.
[^1]: https://pubs.aip.org/avs/jvb/article/42/2/023202/3262988/Hig...
[^2]: https://www.thermofisher.com/elisa/product/ErbB2-HER2-Human-..., note that I didn't shop around for necessarily the best prices.
[^1]: https://pubs.aip.org/avs/jvb/article/42/2/023202/3262988/Hig...
[^2]: https://www.thermofisher.com/elisa/product/ErbB2-HER2-Human-..., note that I didn't shop around for necessarily the best prices.
MRI is very rarely used for breast cancer screening. Mammography is much cheaper.
The "press release" looks more like a final report for a microcontroller applications class than an actual press release.
Diagram aside.
The thirty through hole parts made me the think the same thing.
The thirty through hole parts made me the think the same thing.
If I look at figure 3 and 5 I immediately see quite a bit of overlap between the readings of the different groups..
Given that only one such device is needed per (say) 100-500 people, I think the device can probably cost a lot more and still be as affordable and effective.
[deleted]
If it’s any good it will filter thru to a doctor near you otherwise, it all sounds nice
Really? Will the $5 Arduino people woo the doctor near you with golf trips? Will they strong arm HMOs to cover the cost? Will they carpetbomb the airwaves telling consumers to “ask their doctor?” Will they defeat the army of marketers and salespeople with entrenched competing tech?
This device may be total crap, I don’t know, but “trust the system” isn’t a great way to navigate the American medical system. Other countries have it better, or at least different.
This device may be total crap, I don’t know, but “trust the system” isn’t a great way to navigate the American medical system. Other countries have it better, or at least different.
Doctors do gravitate towards effective tests and medicines, and insurance plans are interest in cheaper alternatives.
There is a lot that could be improved about the US medical system, but Nobody has to bribe doctors and insurance to sell tongue depressors.
There is a lot that could be improved about the US medical system, but Nobody has to bribe doctors and insurance to sell tongue depressors.
I would bet someone out there has attempted to come up with a high-margin tongue depressor with fancy built-in features. But the plain wooden stick is already entrenched and obviously effective (for depressing tongues).
This is the opposite. If the state of the art was a fancy tongue manipulation machine that cost $30k, used licensed consumables billed at $100/patient, and did a bunch of non-essential things that doctors found convenient once in a while, would someone selling a box of sticks get anywhere?
This is the opposite. If the state of the art was a fancy tongue manipulation machine that cost $30k, used licensed consumables billed at $100/patient, and did a bunch of non-essential things that doctors found convenient once in a while, would someone selling a box of sticks get anywhere?
$0 device tests for breast cancer in under 5 seconds: its called a hand.
clickbait misleading headline from a garbage-tier SEO-mill website.
flag this and ban the website
flag this and ban the website
Cool how they're using BNC connectors and ICs from the 1980's /s
First standout thing I noticed is the “patern generator” array of DIPs - admittedly without having dived into the paper, any answers from the hive mind what they’re doing?
From the paper:
> Synchronous voltage pulses are sent to both the electrode of the strip connecting to the gate and drain electrodes of the MOSFET. The drain pulse is applied for around 1.1 ms at a constant voltage. The gate pulse starts at 40 μs after the drain pulse and ends at 40 μs before the end of the drain pulse.
> the antigen-antibody complexes undergo stretching and contracting, akin to double springs, in response to a pulsed gate electric field. This motion across the antibody-antigen structure, corresponding to the pulse voltage applied on the test strip, induces an alteration in the protein's conformation, resulting in a time-dependent electric field applied to the MOSFET gate. Consequently, a springlike pattern emerges in the drain voltage waveform due to the external connection between the sensor strip and the MOSFET's gate electrode.
So they shake ‘em just so, and listen to the response…
ICs are perhaps variable timing & pulse-shaping logic?
> Synchronous voltage pulses are sent to both the electrode of the strip connecting to the gate and drain electrodes of the MOSFET. The drain pulse is applied for around 1.1 ms at a constant voltage. The gate pulse starts at 40 μs after the drain pulse and ends at 40 μs before the end of the drain pulse.
> the antigen-antibody complexes undergo stretching and contracting, akin to double springs, in response to a pulsed gate electric field. This motion across the antibody-antigen structure, corresponding to the pulse voltage applied on the test strip, induces an alteration in the protein's conformation, resulting in a time-dependent electric field applied to the MOSFET gate. Consequently, a springlike pattern emerges in the drain voltage waveform due to the external connection between the sensor strip and the MOSFET's gate electrode.
So they shake ‘em just so, and listen to the response…
ICs are perhaps variable timing & pulse-shaping logic?
There are a million people that could do this with a single FPGA in an afternoon. Why were none of them approached?
I was focusing more on the "current to frequency" stage, which looks like an empty IC socket. As is the "pulse width counting" stage just a bunch of header pins?
I mean yeah, I get it, it's a prototype and a finished product will be on a $2 ASIC to drive the correct signals and etc. But I'm not up to speed on affinity sensors vs. traditional ELISA tech so <internet shrug>.
I mean yeah, I get it, it's a prototype and a finished product will be on a $2 ASIC to drive the correct signals and etc. But I'm not up to speed on affinity sensors vs. traditional ELISA tech so <internet shrug>.
Nothing jumps out at me as being fishy here. There's what appears to be a small device mounted in the middle of that empty socket. It's also possible some of the rest of the pins on the socket are being used as test points. A circuit diagram would have be good to have here.
Yeah; it's a bit strange to label a single MOSFET...
Breast cancer is a terrible disease, and I don't mean to be a downer but my BS detector is screaming on this one. I'd give the device image a pass if were just a journalist grabbing a stock PCB image, but that doesn't seem to be the case here. Anyone with even a trivial knowledge of electronics would be amused by the callouts. And all for just $5? After Theranos I guess I'm a bit sceptical of claims such as this.
[deleted]
Yeah, this looks like an Apple IIe logic board to me.
Commodity logic ICs ubiquitous and totally capable if needs are well-matched; it’s perhaps a deliberate prototype engineering/development choice.
Any FPGA could do the work smaller, faster, cheaper. So, I’m still skeptical.
These are vacuum nerds more than electronics nerds. Most homebrew electronics designed by physicists for basic research are going to have these aesthetic qualities.
glitchc(1)
Actual publication: https://pubs.aip.org/avs/jvb/article/42/2/023202/3262988/Hig...
Experiment size is literally N=21, with 4 healthy participants, 3 in-situ breast cancers, and 14 invasive breast cancers.
N=21 might as well be useless in my opinion. You can't draw any meaningful conclusions about statistical power of this test; if your priors were 10% for breast cancer, after taking this test, your posterior probably remains unchanged.