Ask HN: How did you sense you were on the chopping block?
We're talking layoffs, firings ... whatever you wanna call it, but losing your job
13 comments
So I've been a consultant and helped companies do huge layoffs, starting from the top down. The lesson is you are NEVER safe unless you are the owner of the company. I've put many a 20 year veteran who was an SVP of etc etc on the chopping block.
Also another huge risk is if you are a manager of 1 or 2 people. You are not a manager you are a layer. If you are a manager of many "managers" of 1 or 2 people this is doubley true.
While tech experts are often different, if you are an individual contributor with an absurd comp given your actual technical skills, beware.
AMA!
Also another huge risk is if you are a manager of 1 or 2 people. You are not a manager you are a layer. If you are a manager of many "managers" of 1 or 2 people this is doubley true.
While tech experts are often different, if you are an individual contributor with an absurd comp given your actual technical skills, beware.
AMA!
Is there anything that signals this person is high-value?
Are there any roles or departments, relevant to this audience, that are particularly safe?
I imagine you cut mostly from loss-centres as with profit centres you can tell who is making and who isn't, right?
Who hires and who do you present your recommendations to, what are their decision criteria?
Very generous of you to do this. I really appreciate it.
Thanks in advance.
Edit: Grammar and manners
Are there any roles or departments, relevant to this audience, that are particularly safe?
I imagine you cut mostly from loss-centres as with profit centres you can tell who is making and who isn't, right?
Who hires and who do you present your recommendations to, what are their decision criteria?
Very generous of you to do this. I really appreciate it.
Thanks in advance.
Edit: Grammar and manners
1. Nobody is safe. But as a general rule: make the product or sell it, don't count it.
2. Loss centers are too simplistic. I mean, hr is a loss center but you still need it. But the question you should ask yourself every day is "am I making the company money today?" If the answer to that is not a clear yes, figure out how to get yourself to that point.
3. Your relationship to your manager matters. And your relationship to your manager's manager. Your job is to always make them look good. If you have conflict....well...
4. I worked for CEO. We would often (and ideally) do this from top down, where we literally reshaped the team that reported to CEO. (And fired members of the current team which didn't find a seat.) Then we would cascade the process layer by layer.
5. Because layers are choosing the layers below them, and often "pulling up" to reduce expensive and useless managers, being a good contributor really matters
6. Sometimes none of this matters. You are in a whole division that is shut down. Tough luck.
7. If you are in a company which is laying off bottom layer people without a huge reduction in middle management. Leave. It is terribly managed. Usually the "workers" are not the problem, it is the huge number of relatively useless middle and mid senior management who are much more costly. Ideally they should go first.
2. Loss centers are too simplistic. I mean, hr is a loss center but you still need it. But the question you should ask yourself every day is "am I making the company money today?" If the answer to that is not a clear yes, figure out how to get yourself to that point.
3. Your relationship to your manager matters. And your relationship to your manager's manager. Your job is to always make them look good. If you have conflict....well...
4. I worked for CEO. We would often (and ideally) do this from top down, where we literally reshaped the team that reported to CEO. (And fired members of the current team which didn't find a seat.) Then we would cascade the process layer by layer.
5. Because layers are choosing the layers below them, and often "pulling up" to reduce expensive and useless managers, being a good contributor really matters
6. Sometimes none of this matters. You are in a whole division that is shut down. Tough luck.
7. If you are in a company which is laying off bottom layer people without a huge reduction in middle management. Leave. It is terribly managed. Usually the "workers" are not the problem, it is the huge number of relatively useless middle and mid senior management who are much more costly. Ideally they should go first.
Thanks. How are tech experts/IC different? Can you explain?
Also, in your opinion what is an absurd salary?
Also, in your opinion what is an absurd salary?
Well in tech you can actually be an expert IC with in demand skills that match the comp. This is vs some "strategy" head or "chief of staff" which are glorified admins that are often created when execs are empire building.
The question to ask is "am I building the product that is being sold, and is the value I add a 10x in terms of revenue?"
I hesitate to give a comp number as I've never been inside FAANG, but more inside large corp. But anything over $500k you definitely are always being looked at there.
The question to ask is "am I building the product that is being sold, and is the value I add a 10x in terms of revenue?"
I hesitate to give a comp number as I've never been inside FAANG, but more inside large corp. But anything over $500k you definitely are always being looked at there.
Here is a bit of advice from 20 years in IT:
Always apply for jobs, even if you are sure you will not be fired. It's like going to the gym every week and keeping your six pack. Don't wait to be fired, be always looking. Do the interviews, get to the final interview and then decide whether to proceed or not.
Always apply for jobs, even if you are sure you will not be fired. It's like going to the gym every week and keeping your six pack. Don't wait to be fired, be always looking. Do the interviews, get to the final interview and then decide whether to proceed or not.
Eh, this isn’t as cut-and-dry as it seems and requires a bit of tact (not to mention doesn’t answer the question). If you are in a smaller market, word will get around that you are wasting everyone’s time. Also interviewing eats up a lot of time so if this is all you are doing, other responsibilities are probably going to get neglected which will get noticed. Again, as always YMMV.
> if you are in a smaller market, word will get around that you are wasting everyone’s time.
Obviously you shouldn't be spamming every single job out there. Apply for jobs that are either better or equal your current status. Jobs where if they accept you, you are very likely to proceed.
> Also interviewing eats up a lot of time so if this is all you are doing, other responsibilities are probably going to get neglected which will get noticed.
It actually doesn't if you know what you are doing. It takes 30mins on a Sunday to look for all jobs and email alerts. Pick one or two, input the job description into ChatGPT and generate a cover letter. Edit and submit. For interviews you usually have a 30mins with HR and can discuss salary.
Companies value you if you are already in a job and are looking for other jobs. If you are already out of a job, you will be treated like dirt.
Obviously you shouldn't be spamming every single job out there. Apply for jobs that are either better or equal your current status. Jobs where if they accept you, you are very likely to proceed.
> Also interviewing eats up a lot of time so if this is all you are doing, other responsibilities are probably going to get neglected which will get noticed.
It actually doesn't if you know what you are doing. It takes 30mins on a Sunday to look for all jobs and email alerts. Pick one or two, input the job description into ChatGPT and generate a cover letter. Edit and submit. For interviews you usually have a 30mins with HR and can discuss salary.
Companies value you if you are already in a job and are looking for other jobs. If you are already out of a job, you will be treated like dirt.
This is highly likely to burn bridges. Especially if your local job market is limited.
I had less and less to do. The company had pivoted, still had no revenue, and my job function was less necessary.
I was hunting for work within in the org, but was remote so was operating at a disadvantage. I would ask the product manager for work, then do it (typically an integration and documentation) then ask for more.
It got to the point where my manager asked me to stop bugging the product manager.
I felt a vague disquiet, but having never been laid off before, didn't quite recognize what was coming.
I was hunting for work within in the org, but was remote so was operating at a disadvantage. I would ask the product manager for work, then do it (typically an integration and documentation) then ask for more.
It got to the point where my manager asked me to stop bugging the product manager.
I felt a vague disquiet, but having never been laid off before, didn't quite recognize what was coming.
Some of the indicators I've seen repeating are:
> I had less and less to do. me, or the team, or the team next to us.. when people would go from 'busy' to 'got nothing to do 4h per day for the past month'.
I also noticed that companies start to cut down on seemingly unnoticeable stuff, (laugh if you want) quality of choices of coffee go down, quality of hand soap, toilet paper, napkins is degraded/replaced, ordering notepads takes 1 more signature and 2 more weeks, and other small pet peeves that suddenly appear.
> I had less and less to do. me, or the team, or the team next to us.. when people would go from 'busy' to 'got nothing to do 4h per day for the past month'.
I also noticed that companies start to cut down on seemingly unnoticeable stuff, (laugh if you want) quality of choices of coffee go down, quality of hand soap, toilet paper, napkins is degraded/replaced, ordering notepads takes 1 more signature and 2 more weeks, and other small pet peeves that suddenly appear.
Tbh I wasn’t paying attention, but in retrospect the signs were obvious:
1. We were owned by a PE company. I should have been more alert if no other reason, but this.
2. Company was banking on a strategy that wasn’t working. Not to go too much into what was happening, but the company had some established legacy products that most of the customers were still using. However majority of the hiring and work being done was all-in on there new suite of software under which the whole company revolved. However they were seeing very little adoption . I worked very close to customers and what I saw was that customers just did not want the new software. I didn’t do what they wanted and was filled to the brim with buzzword-tier features and concepts that no one really cared about.
3. There were a few signs my manager mentioned to me after the layoffs, but I hadn’t been paying too much attention to. There were some sudden reorg choices that didn’t affect me too much, but more than that, there was a seemingly desperate rebrand announced some time before. It didn’t make sense to me at the time, but in the context of 2) it seems more clear. There were also a number of curious lower level executive departures in the months prior.
It was a small SaaS company and they ended up dumping around half of us in late 2022. Not sure what they’re up to now. They’ve done yet another rebrand since and little information remains regarding the old company name and endeavors.
1. We were owned by a PE company. I should have been more alert if no other reason, but this.
2. Company was banking on a strategy that wasn’t working. Not to go too much into what was happening, but the company had some established legacy products that most of the customers were still using. However majority of the hiring and work being done was all-in on there new suite of software under which the whole company revolved. However they were seeing very little adoption . I worked very close to customers and what I saw was that customers just did not want the new software. I didn’t do what they wanted and was filled to the brim with buzzword-tier features and concepts that no one really cared about.
3. There were a few signs my manager mentioned to me after the layoffs, but I hadn’t been paying too much attention to. There were some sudden reorg choices that didn’t affect me too much, but more than that, there was a seemingly desperate rebrand announced some time before. It didn’t make sense to me at the time, but in the context of 2) it seems more clear. There were also a number of curious lower level executive departures in the months prior.
It was a small SaaS company and they ended up dumping around half of us in late 2022. Not sure what they’re up to now. They’ve done yet another rebrand since and little information remains regarding the old company name and endeavors.
I was told that org changes were coming, but that they would probably be good changes. Two separate senior people said I'd be fine, and then were totally surprised when I got laid off.
Senior leadership had lost the ability to plan and execute effectively, so I knew something was going to happen.
Senior leadership had lost the ability to plan and execute effectively, so I knew something was going to happen.
Different kind of chop, but my team was getting sold. I had zero idea.
For a year in advance we kept having to break services and databases into two parts or clone services for corporate and for us. It was done under the guise of “we need to be agile” but it made zero sense without the hidden context.
For a year in advance we kept having to break services and databases into two parts or clone services for corporate and for us. It was done under the guise of “we need to be agile” but it made zero sense without the hidden context.
Sadly I never saw it coming, but should have.
First place, was bought buy a major corporation. They clearly told us they bought us just for our client base. The place had 2000 people at that building when I started. 10 years, and annual layoffs later, I thought I was essential. They had a layoff, woot I am safe this year. Then they laid me off as well as about 100 others, they decided they did not cut enough on prior layoff. This brought the location down to 100, a year later it closed.
Second layoff, was a company I had only been at a year. Biggest sign I had was the new director and my boss did not get along. She and everyone under her was laid off.
Oh well I am better now :-)
First place, was bought buy a major corporation. They clearly told us they bought us just for our client base. The place had 2000 people at that building when I started. 10 years, and annual layoffs later, I thought I was essential. They had a layoff, woot I am safe this year. Then they laid me off as well as about 100 others, they decided they did not cut enough on prior layoff. This brought the location down to 100, a year later it closed.
Second layoff, was a company I had only been at a year. Biggest sign I had was the new director and my boss did not get along. She and everyone under her was laid off.
Oh well I am better now :-)
Company was going thru a split (selling a large division off), the project I was on was going to get axed for sure, its just that it would take 6-12 months for the company to realize that and actually do the downsizing. When I put in my notice my manager was happy because he thought he would have to lay me off in 6-9 months.
If you're at a publicly traded company, pay attention to large shareholder changes and/or things that need to go through SEC and lawyers. It should be obvious what some potential outcomes are and the length of time for the SEC and lawyers to do their work is enough to start looking immediately and land another job.
If you're at a publicly traded company, pay attention to large shareholder changes and/or things that need to go through SEC and lawyers. It should be obvious what some potential outcomes are and the length of time for the SEC and lawyers to do their work is enough to start looking immediately and land another job.
I was at a startup where they showed the hardware sales funnel with NO customers anywhere except some "possibles" at the very top of the funnel. After a couple of months of this, there was a pivot away from hardware to focus on software, which actually had a few customers.
Another startup, signs of trouble. Didn't take my picture for the corporate web page, and also asked to meet with a lawyer for documenting possible patent claims.
Another startup, signs of trouble. Didn't take my picture for the corporate web page, and also asked to meet with a lawyer for documenting possible patent claims.
Make sure you are working on projects that are generating real substancial $ for the company. And make sure your manager and his/her manager knows about this.
It reminds me of some gangster movie where they are discussing whacking somebody. “But he is a good earner!” saved his life.
It reminds me of some gangster movie where they are discussing whacking somebody. “But he is a good earner!” saved his life.
The night before I had a meeting invite for 9am with HR and someone 3 levels above me in my org tree.
In the months leading up to this I wasn't working on anything important. The larger project felt doomed to fail or get canceled (it was canceled) . My boss also told me I'm not autonomous enough and that I need to find my own projects.
In the months leading up to this I wasn't working on anything important. The larger project felt doomed to fail or get canceled (it was canceled) . My boss also told me I'm not autonomous enough and that I need to find my own projects.
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I wanted to comment, I feel like Im in a situation where I feel i could be layed off ... mgmt asking me to document a whole process Ive worked on for over 3 years here.
How did you know?
How did you know?
That looks like a strong signal. Is your resume in order?