‘Quotes were £5000 or more’: electric vehicle owners face soaring insurance cost(theguardian.com)
theguardian.com
‘Quotes were £5000 or more’: electric vehicle owners face soaring insurance cost
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/sep/30/the-quotes-were-5000-or-more-electric-vehicle-owners-face-soaring-insurance-costs
16 comments
It's the Guardian, not the Sun. They have quotes from the insurers themselves.
> John Lewis Financial Services told us: “Our underwriter has temporarily paused offering new policies and renewals on fully electric vehicles while they analyse the risks and costs entailed. This decision does not affect any existing policies in force, or hybrid vehicles.”
> John Lewis Financial Services told us: “Our underwriter has temporarily paused offering new policies and renewals on fully electric vehicles while they analyse the risks and costs entailed. This decision does not affect any existing policies in force, or hybrid vehicles.”
They also give the general figures - 'typical' £959 electric £848 petrol, so it's more the headline that is kind of scary. Though those prices still seem quite high to me. I've paid between £75 and £310 per year to insure a petrol car in the UK over the last decade. But I don't claim much.
Did your 75 policy include fixing your car in an accident? In the US at least; the only policies that low only fix the other persons car - not yours, and cannot be used if the car had a loan.
I think it did but I was surprised by the price there as it's not normally that cheap. It was a second car with 'classic car' insurance. I went on a comparison site and got a quote for more than that which I didn't do anything with, and then some guy called me offering to insure for £75. I guess it was a promo to get new customers probably.
It’s also weird that any criticism whatsoever of what is loved by techies - EVs, self driving cars, AI supremacy - is brushed aside as a conspiracy, exaggeration, and lies.
Go right this second and try to find the cheapest EV with the $7500 tax subsidy and it’s still $10000 more than a comparable gas car.
Do the math on solar panel installs and it barely makes sense even with the subsidies, and you are only 1 sudden roof replacement away from making it all worthless.
Wind is being renegotiated / written off on the East Coast.
Yes, if we dump trillions of dollars into this tech and squint really hard it might make sense. But it’s pretty dismal.
Go right this second and try to find the cheapest EV with the $7500 tax subsidy and it’s still $10000 more than a comparable gas car.
Do the math on solar panel installs and it barely makes sense even with the subsidies, and you are only 1 sudden roof replacement away from making it all worthless.
Wind is being renegotiated / written off on the East Coast.
Yes, if we dump trillions of dollars into this tech and squint really hard it might make sense. But it’s pretty dismal.
Home Solar installations in the UK are paying off in about 6-8 years at the moment for an installation that has guarantees for 25 years (except inverter/batteries). They are more than capable of surviving the weather we see in the UK even 1 in 100 year hail storms or hurricanes.
Wind is averaging 30.2% of the yearly power production of the Uk and its growing fast. There are numerous solar arrays going up across the country beyond just the home projects which are currently running at 200k homes a year, its limited by installers not demand. The most important stat really is that 4x the current Uk power demand of Solar projects is currently held up on grid upgrades which will take us through to 2035. That alone with some battery storage will be more than enough. This transition in the Uk is happening and fast and all the economics show its because green power is cheaper than fossil fuels and nuclear power.
Wind is averaging 30.2% of the yearly power production of the Uk and its growing fast. There are numerous solar arrays going up across the country beyond just the home projects which are currently running at 200k homes a year, its limited by installers not demand. The most important stat really is that 4x the current Uk power demand of Solar projects is currently held up on grid upgrades which will take us through to 2035. That alone with some battery storage will be more than enough. This transition in the Uk is happening and fast and all the economics show its because green power is cheaper than fossil fuels and nuclear power.
We just had a hail storm in central Texas; roof tiles? Gone. Solar panels? Fine. This was baseball-sized hail. Reinstalling solar is cheap compared to a new roof; a lot of people are switching to standing seam.
The same people who claim they are too expensive also claim they lose their value quickly. While these can both be true, surely they shouldn’t complain if nearly new second hand cars are cheap?
They also claim that batteries are expensive to replace, but if I can buy a nearly new second hand car for next to nothing, why would I buy a brand new expensive battery?
Why are the US writing off wind? We generate a huge amount of electricity from wind in Scotland. Is it not windy is the US?
https://electricityproduction.uk/in/scotland/
They also claim that batteries are expensive to replace, but if I can buy a nearly new second hand car for next to nothing, why would I buy a brand new expensive battery?
Why are the US writing off wind? We generate a huge amount of electricity from wind in Scotland. Is it not windy is the US?
https://electricityproduction.uk/in/scotland/
> if I can buy a nearly new second hand car for next to nothing, why would I buy a brand new expensive battery?
If. This doesn't sound like it will foment a healthy used car market, at least not one that's anything like used ICE.
If. This doesn't sound like it will foment a healthy used car market, at least not one that's anything like used ICE.
Everyone knows it's more expensive, because no one factors in the shared cost of the alternatives. What does our existence cost, when shared across 8 billion people?
Bolt EV
The car they literally just canceled?
https://www.autoweek.com/news/industry-news/a43699126/gm-can...
I know a guy who owned a Volt for years and it was a total piece of shit.
https://www.autoweek.com/news/industry-news/a43699126/gm-can...
I know a guy who owned a Volt for years and it was a total piece of shit.
Please do tell the hating-the-Volt story.
Easy to presume: it was being compared to a car that cost more than $14k USD?
Easy to presume: it was being compared to a car that cost more than $14k USD?
One, the Bolt and Volt are different cars.
Two, that article is old news as it was a short lived decision that GM reversed https://www.npr.org/2023/07/27/1190569344/chevy-bolt-electri...
Two, that article is old news as it was a short lived decision that GM reversed https://www.npr.org/2023/07/27/1190569344/chevy-bolt-electri...
They've said two separate things about the Bolt: 1) production of the current version will stop at the end of 2023, and 2) they'll launch a new one sometime.
Remains to be seen how long they'll be boltless before the new platform version is available, and they haven't said anything about pricing yet.
I'm sure parent commenter is aware the Bolt and Volt are different cars, but it's perfectly valid to look at Chevy's other products to set your expectations for new ones. They don't have a reputation for reliability.
Remains to be seen how long they'll be boltless before the new platform version is available, and they haven't said anything about pricing yet.
I'm sure parent commenter is aware the Bolt and Volt are different cars, but it's perfectly valid to look at Chevy's other products to set your expectations for new ones. They don't have a reputation for reliability.
Even if Bolt is missing a year or two, they're still available now and they will also be very soon. OP's retort was that it was cancelled, and originally that there existed no affordable EV like this. Of course both of those statements need to be corrected.
It is valid to look at Chevy's other products, and the LG battery problems with the Bolt were unfortunate. OP's anecdote about the Volt may be valid, but using the Volt as an example of Chevy's reliability is the worst thing you could do as the reviews for it were phenomenal and punching well above Chevy's typical prowess. That car is a very practical, affordable, emissions saving, plug in hybrid.
It is valid to look at Chevy's other products, and the LG battery problems with the Bolt were unfortunate. OP's anecdote about the Volt may be valid, but using the Volt as an example of Chevy's reliability is the worst thing you could do as the reviews for it were phenomenal and punching well above Chevy's typical prowess. That car is a very practical, affordable, emissions saving, plug in hybrid.
We can hope it will be affordable, but given what just happened with the Blazer EV pricing I'm expecting a significant bump from the current pricing.
On the Blazer EV they've killed the base trim before the car even comes out, AWD 2LT will start at $56,715, pricing on the non AWD 2LT remains unknown but is probably over $50k.
One of the Bolt's revenue streams has been selling emissions credits to other manufacturers, with the Bolt having been the US's best selling non-Tesla EV, and most car manufacturers not having a particularly good fleet of low emissions vehicles here. That's going to start drying up as more manufacturers bring more EVs to market, so the Bolt will need to be priced to be profitable on its own.
https://www.spglobal.com/mobility/en/research-analysis/selli...
If I had to guess, the Equinox will land in the high 30k's (if its 1LT trim makes it to production) and the Bolt will be more like $34k, compared to current pricing starting at $26.5k. Affordable for an EV, but puts the base trim of a Bolt around the top trim of a Prius.
On the Blazer EV they've killed the base trim before the car even comes out, AWD 2LT will start at $56,715, pricing on the non AWD 2LT remains unknown but is probably over $50k.
One of the Bolt's revenue streams has been selling emissions credits to other manufacturers, with the Bolt having been the US's best selling non-Tesla EV, and most car manufacturers not having a particularly good fleet of low emissions vehicles here. That's going to start drying up as more manufacturers bring more EVs to market, so the Bolt will need to be priced to be profitable on its own.
https://www.spglobal.com/mobility/en/research-analysis/selli...
If I had to guess, the Equinox will land in the high 30k's (if its 1LT trim makes it to production) and the Bolt will be more like $34k, compared to current pricing starting at $26.5k. Affordable for an EV, but puts the base trim of a Bolt around the top trim of a Prius.
I know two guys who owned Volts for years and they both found them to be reliable and useful vehicles.
Whose anecdotes win here?
Whose anecdotes win here?
You’d hope that this thread explicitly being about the UK would stop an American making worldwide assertions, but I suppose not.
> “I spent weeks on every comparison site as well as trying individual insurers and specialist brokers, but either they wouldn’t cover the car or the quotes were £5,000 or more,” says David, whose only change in circumstance was three points on a licence.
David probably got those 3 points from speeding. If you’re going to speed in a £60k supercar-for-dads please don’t also complain about your premium going up.
David probably got those 3 points from speeding. If you’re going to speed in a £60k supercar-for-dads please don’t also complain about your premium going up.
Let's flip that point around. Why does anybody think it is reasonable that an insurance company be privy to a driver's point history?
The only weak argument that can be made is that "David" is a "danger" on the road because he drives too fast, and therefore, is bound to crash his car eventually. Which would "warrant" a higher insurance premium.
But the fact is that, if "David" was accident-prone, he would already be penalized by his malus.
So now he is being charged extra beforehand, for an accident he didn't commit, just because the insurance company can. In a way, it reminds me of Minority Report..
The only weak argument that can be made is that "David" is a "danger" on the road because he drives too fast, and therefore, is bound to crash his car eventually. Which would "warrant" a higher insurance premium.
But the fact is that, if "David" was accident-prone, he would already be penalized by his malus.
So now he is being charged extra beforehand, for an accident he didn't commit, just because the insurance company can. In a way, it reminds me of Minority Report..
He's being charged extra beforehand because the people who provably speed and are provably more reckless and provably more dangerous and provably more accident-prone are the ones that stand to benefit the most from insurance to the expense of other drivers.
There's no study I've seen that says that is true. Especially in a society where speed limits are increasingly NOT being set for road safety reasons but for political ones. Take for instance, Wales' 'blanket' 20mph policy that I think they want to bring in across the nation - there's evidence that 20mph limits don't reduce accidents with any statistical significance[0].
[0] https://www.bmj.com/company/newsroom/20-mph-speed-limits-hav...
[0] https://www.bmj.com/company/newsroom/20-mph-speed-limits-hav...
Yes, however people who willingly violate laws are more reckless. Insurance is heavily regulated and the rates are set by actuarial data. In other words, insurance companies can only charge high rates for speeders if they can prove their past payouts were higher for speeders than non speeders.
Also the 20mph policy is about reducing the risk of pedestrian death, not accident rates.
Also the 20mph policy is about reducing the risk of pedestrian death, not accident rates.
> people who willingly violate laws are more reckless
That's a blanket assertion - surely it would depend on the law being violated and how it is violated. What if a law was unjust? What if a law was designed to be violated? Are free speech activists in authoritarian countries reckless?
> insurance companies can only charge high rates for speeders if they can prove their past payouts were higher for speeders than non speeders.
Untrue, there's little regulation on how insurance companies determine and charge for risk and there's next to no transparency.
> Also the 20mph policy is about reducing the risk of pedestrian death, not accident rates.
The referenced article looks at 'outcomes' - `road traffic collisions, casualties, or driver speed`. Not just accident rates.
That's a blanket assertion - surely it would depend on the law being violated and how it is violated. What if a law was unjust? What if a law was designed to be violated? Are free speech activists in authoritarian countries reckless?
> insurance companies can only charge high rates for speeders if they can prove their past payouts were higher for speeders than non speeders.
Untrue, there's little regulation on how insurance companies determine and charge for risk and there's next to no transparency.
> Also the 20mph policy is about reducing the risk of pedestrian death, not accident rates.
The referenced article looks at 'outcomes' - `road traffic collisions, casualties, or driver speed`. Not just accident rates.
The blanket assertion doesn’t have to be true in every case, it just has to be true on average. Because insurance companies operate on the statistics of all people. Sure, even though Dave has 173 speeding tickets in the past, he may not speed again, but on average he will.
> Untrue, there’s little regulation…
But this is not true. Not only are there large regulatory bodies whose main purpose is to audit the spending and calculations of insurance firms, but there are also laws on what companies can consider in actuarial calculations (e.g. not race).
> Untrue, there’s little regulation…
But this is not true. Not only are there large regulatory bodies whose main purpose is to audit the spending and calculations of insurance firms, but there are also laws on what companies can consider in actuarial calculations (e.g. not race).
He has been penalized, he has 3 points. People with 3 points are more likely to get more points than someone with no points, statistics like these are the way that insurance companies make money.
That's exactly missing the point.
He's got 3 points, and so? That's none of the insurance company's business. It's between a driver and the road authorities.
Statistically, a non-negligible proportion of medication prescribed to the general population can have an impact on cognitive abilities, and, de facto, make them worse drivers. Yet, car insurance companies are not privy to a driver's medical history. For a good reason: breach of privacy.
My argument is that points on a license fall under the same category: privacy, and not-their-business.
Then again, they also had insurances in the UK inviting drivers to install phone apps to monitor their driving, and set their premiums accordingly. So, if a country thinks that's absolutely fine, well, what to say..
He's got 3 points, and so? That's none of the insurance company's business. It's between a driver and the road authorities.
Statistically, a non-negligible proportion of medication prescribed to the general population can have an impact on cognitive abilities, and, de facto, make them worse drivers. Yet, car insurance companies are not privy to a driver's medical history. For a good reason: breach of privacy.
My argument is that points on a license fall under the same category: privacy, and not-their-business.
Then again, they also had insurances in the UK inviting drivers to install phone apps to monitor their driving, and set their premiums accordingly. So, if a country thinks that's absolutely fine, well, what to say..
Sounds backwards that somebody can break the law and claim it's their private matter.
Wow.. I guess Police States are not lost on everybody..
Even if traffic violations fell under criminal law, and most of them don't, it still would remain a private matter. Private companies simply have no right to a person's criminal record, full stop.
Even if traffic violations fell under criminal law, and most of them don't, it still would remain a private matter. Private companies simply have no right to a person's criminal record, full stop.
People who regularly exhibit risky behaviour should not be allowed to increase the risk premium of the entire population without paying a proportionally larger amount. Especially for harmful, yet pointless behaviour like driving too fast on public roads, endangering everyone.
Turn it around then. Charge everyone 2x the current average. Give 50% discounts for voluntarily demonstrating to the insurance company a clean driving record.
Same effect, extra pain in the ass.
Same effect, extra pain in the ass.
Sounds like you want the government to intercede in private contracts. Make insurance companies asking you how many points you've got illegal.
" whose only change in circumstance was three points on a licence."
LOL, so it seems much more likely the new speeding ticket or whatever had more effect than the Tesla on the price rise.
Still maybe something to discuss (getting punished for speeding itself, then by the insurance rise), but a different issue.
LOL, so it seems much more likely the new speeding ticket or whatever had more effect than the Tesla on the price rise.
Still maybe something to discuss (getting punished for speeding itself, then by the insurance rise), but a different issue.
Insurance is a profit driven business. If EV premiums have risen then the actuaries have made an assessment to risk of loss of profits even under re-insurance.
When brand specific theft surges, theft insurance for those brands rise.
I hate the effect this will have on EV uptake but I caution against assuming there is no factual basis to why insurers are moving. It's like futures markets and one of the reasons why they were invented: to manage farmers future risks, not just to benefit derivatives investors. If premiums are rising, future and current owners need to know why, and EV manufacturers need to be responsive.
When brand specific theft surges, theft insurance for those brands rise.
I hate the effect this will have on EV uptake but I caution against assuming there is no factual basis to why insurers are moving. It's like futures markets and one of the reasons why they were invented: to manage farmers future risks, not just to benefit derivatives investors. If premiums are rising, future and current owners need to know why, and EV manufacturers need to be responsive.
I'm not surprised. How many stories have we seen where a seemingly minor accident caused a Rivian to be totaled? Or Teslas waiting for weeks or months to get the parts needed for a repair? I've been thinking to myself what's going to happen to the insurance rates for these vehicles?
Take Tesla's gigacasting, for example. Great to bring down manufacturing costs, horrible for repair costs. Insurance covers repairs, not production. If your gigacast vehicle gets in an accident, you're likely to get screwed. It's very hard to do bodywork on those vehicles and there's few people with the experience to do it. That's expensive - and that's what you're asking your insurance provider to cover.
Add to it the sensors and cameras and everything else they're adding to these vehicles and they're becoming a nightmare to repair. It kind of pisses me off, in a way. EV's are supposed to be simpler, but what we've done is to actually make them more complex, at least from a repair perspective. All I really wanted was a simple car, such as a Honda Civic, that has an electric drivetrain. Simple. Not a bunch of electronics to go awry, I could take to any bodyshop and have repaired, and I could realistically expect to get 400,000 miles. </rant>
Take Tesla's gigacasting, for example. Great to bring down manufacturing costs, horrible for repair costs. Insurance covers repairs, not production. If your gigacast vehicle gets in an accident, you're likely to get screwed. It's very hard to do bodywork on those vehicles and there's few people with the experience to do it. That's expensive - and that's what you're asking your insurance provider to cover.
Add to it the sensors and cameras and everything else they're adding to these vehicles and they're becoming a nightmare to repair. It kind of pisses me off, in a way. EV's are supposed to be simpler, but what we've done is to actually make them more complex, at least from a repair perspective. All I really wanted was a simple car, such as a Honda Civic, that has an electric drivetrain. Simple. Not a bunch of electronics to go awry, I could take to any bodyshop and have repaired, and I could realistically expect to get 400,000 miles. </rant>
Is this just a UK thing? I pay $160/mo to insure my Model 3 and I didn't even really shop around for a good deal.
My dad saw (here in the US) a fairly hefty insurance bump going from a bells-and-whistles Acura to a Tesla Model 3.
The single-cast underbody is a big and expensive single thing to repair if it gets damaged, as is the battery.
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a42709679/tesla-insurance-...
The single-cast underbody is a big and expensive single thing to repair if it gets damaged, as is the battery.
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a42709679/tesla-insurance-...
Okay, sure. But £5,000 is like $17million (okay, it's $6000), and why on God's green earth does anyone's car insurance cost $6k per year?
Due to a mathematical actuarial assessment of the risk of the individual circumstances: driver risk- age, driving history, speeding history, gender, claim history, post(zip)code for theft prevalence, car storage location (street); vehicle risk- cost, claim history, etc. then add a premium to make the insurer its profit.
My bet is that the quote wasn’t an error or a deliberate tilt against EVs but instead a real assessment based on modelled risk.
My bet is that the quote wasn’t an error or a deliberate tilt against EVs but instead a real assessment based on modelled risk.
So this is Tesla specific? I've certainly seen no such thing with my Nissan Leaf in the US.
The casting may be, but the Leaf definitely has a big battery too.
All of my Teslas have gone up $30-$50/month in Florida within the last six months, but more of an artifact of the FL insurance market (25% of Florida drivers are uninsured and the cost of both parts and labor have gone up significantly) vs EV/Tesla specific.
Potentially getting slightly off topic but how is that possible? In the UK the police can check insurance status just by typing the registration number into an app, which can be connected to ANPR (I know ANPR is contentious in the US).
Couldn't you just have a couple of officers stand and type the registration in of all passing cars? They'd make a fortune in fines (which I know US police depts like) if 25% of drivers were uninsured?
Couldn't you just have a couple of officers stand and type the registration in of all passing cars? They'd make a fortune in fines (which I know US police depts like) if 25% of drivers were uninsured?
Not enough law enforcement for a variety of reasons, and people don’t buy insurance because of poverty. Can’t cite or ticket a car with no plate, illegible plate, etc and you’re not getting a fine out of someone who can barely afford their car already (no insurance). Complex socioeconomic issues as usual. I don’t plan on staying too much longer.
This is another large distinction. IIRC for quite a few years now, if you're found driving without insurance in the UK, the car is confiscated and crushed into a cube. I may be confusing that with another "driving without $THING" offence. That might not work too good where you can get a new shitbox automobile for less than insurance costs.
Yikes. Definitely not here. At the most you get a fine and your car is impounded until you can show proof of insurance. I guess eventually they might destroy it, but I can't think of anything you can do that would result in immediate legal confiscation of the vehicle. Even if it's impounded and you can't get it registered/insured, if you show up with a tow truck and pay the impound charges, they'll let you take the car away.
It wouldn't make any difference.
While you are required to have at least liability insurance in most US states, I can tell you that here in MN there is no link between your insurance status and vehicle registration. When you register a vehicle, they ask for a policy number and expiration date.
As long as that date is in the future, the registration will be issued. I know this because there have been times when I couldn't be bothered to look up my insurance policy and just made something up (at work, couldn't log into insurance site for some reason, etc.). Cars registered just fine.
While you are required to have at least liability insurance in most US states, I can tell you that here in MN there is no link between your insurance status and vehicle registration. When you register a vehicle, they ask for a policy number and expiration date.
As long as that date is in the future, the registration will be issued. I know this because there have been times when I couldn't be bothered to look up my insurance policy and just made something up (at work, couldn't log into insurance site for some reason, etc.). Cars registered just fine.
You'd think right? Coming from Belgium the thought of driving without insurance / revoked license gives me goosebumps.
But here, no-one cares. All people I know carry uninsured / underinsured coverage in case they get hit by a person in one of those categories.
And even they are insured, their limits are so low that if someone crashes into you and totals your 1 month Tesla model 3, your underinsured will still need to kick in as limits can be as low as 15k / accident.
But here, no-one cares. All people I know carry uninsured / underinsured coverage in case they get hit by a person in one of those categories.
And even they are insured, their limits are so low that if someone crashes into you and totals your 1 month Tesla model 3, your underinsured will still need to kick in as limits can be as low as 15k / accident.
> In the UK the police can check insurance status just by typing the registration number into an app
Why even type ? Scan license plates and issue the fine
Why even fine ? Have an automatic fall back insurance assigned to you the moment your car is uninsured
Why even type ? Scan license plates and issue the fine
Why even fine ? Have an automatic fall back insurance assigned to you the moment your car is uninsured
160/mo seems very expensive. I pay $900/yr for my parents' car.
If you live in US you may be surprised at how state dependent this is, eg, my current state car insurance costs as much as my last states house mortgage (same cars and history), ie much more expensive and kinda makes me wish I had kept the house for our cars registrations.
Not just state, but zip code. Costs if you live downtown in a bigger city are likely to be much higher than if you lived in a rural area. It just has to do with density, how likely you are to make a claim, etc.
> Analysts say claims costs are 25% higher for electric cars, and that they also take about 14% longer to repair than a diesel or petrol equivalent.
That seems odd. One of the main things about having an electric vehicle was supposed to be theirs reliably and simplicity compared to the complexity of an internal combustion engine.
At the same time insurance actuaries figured something out that is counterintuitive to the general expectations around EVs. Do people in EVs drive more dangerously? I can see the repairs being more expensive due to needing specialized skills, but it would seem higher reliability should have offset that, but perhaps it didn’t.
That seems odd. One of the main things about having an electric vehicle was supposed to be theirs reliably and simplicity compared to the complexity of an internal combustion engine.
At the same time insurance actuaries figured something out that is counterintuitive to the general expectations around EVs. Do people in EVs drive more dangerously? I can see the repairs being more expensive due to needing specialized skills, but it would seem higher reliability should have offset that, but perhaps it didn’t.
I'd put money on it being the difference in failure modes between an ICE and a BEV. If there's even the whiff of a possibility that the battery has been compromised, that's probably a write off. Prangs that wouldn't phase an ordinary car suddenly make a future thermal runaway a possibility, and you have to eat the loss of the value of the car.
I'd also question the whole reliability angle. In my current car, the engine is comfortably outlasting the electronics, because engines are easy to service and maintain. The equivalent doesn't really exist for electronics. You aren't going to rewind an electric motor every service interval; you just use it until it fails and then replace it. But the whole point of servicing is to prevent those failures before they happen. And a maintained engine probably lasts longer than electrical components that don't have preventative maintenance done on them.
I'd also question the whole reliability angle. In my current car, the engine is comfortably outlasting the electronics, because engines are easy to service and maintain. The equivalent doesn't really exist for electronics. You aren't going to rewind an electric motor every service interval; you just use it until it fails and then replace it. But the whole point of servicing is to prevent those failures before they happen. And a maintained engine probably lasts longer than electrical components that don't have preventative maintenance done on them.
The failure mode makes sense to me. The battery pack replacement, motor replacement, blocks of electronic control systems and so on. Yeah, those would cost quite a bit.
The reliability under day-to-day usage is higher, but the costs of repairs for issues under ordinary use are borne by the owner. Insurance is only concerned with the repair costs for catastrophic accidents, which involve far more than just the engine.
Gas cars are very safe to work on relative to EVs. Electric car batteries are very dangerous when damaged, and any high voltage work requires extreme caution. The whole simplicity argument for electric cars was just a marketing spiel. Every car manufacturer has to make trade-offs between production and assembly costs and repairability. Tesla has made perfectly reasonable choices that optimize for cheaper production but that also result in 10k repair bills for fender benders.
Another issue is that EVs are very high torque, much like motorcycles and go carts. Teslas especially so. Most people are poor drivers and not capable of driving cars like that safely. People tend to panic and hit the throttle instead of the brake pedal when the torque takes them by surprise. More crashes -> higher insurance premiums.
Another issue is that EVs are very high torque, much like motorcycles and go carts. Teslas especially so. Most people are poor drivers and not capable of driving cars like that safely. People tend to panic and hit the throttle instead of the brake pedal when the torque takes them by surprise. More crashes -> higher insurance premiums.
> The whole simplicity argument for electric cars was just a marketing spiel.
That's what it feels like, at least with the current models. With IC cars there can still be a choice replacing the larger system, or spend more in labor to open it and replace just the broken inner component.
When EVs were starting up I thought, given the touted simplicity, we'd have cheaper models, for say $8-10k or so, with a higher reliability. It turns out they are more or just as expensive to buy and maintain. The cheapest Chevy Bolt is $26k, while a Honda Civic is $23k.
That's what it feels like, at least with the current models. With IC cars there can still be a choice replacing the larger system, or spend more in labor to open it and replace just the broken inner component.
When EVs were starting up I thought, given the touted simplicity, we'd have cheaper models, for say $8-10k or so, with a higher reliability. It turns out they are more or just as expensive to buy and maintain. The cheapest Chevy Bolt is $26k, while a Honda Civic is $23k.
I have to imagine the availability of replacement parts and skilled mechanics are contributing factors.
Everything part of an electric car is filled with DRM and anti repair bullshit. So even if it should technically be easier to repair, it's not.
My electric vehicle insurance is free; it's included with my renters' insurance.
https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/bikes/hybrid-bikes/electr...
https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/bikes/hybrid-bikes/electr...
Most of those policies don’t include motorized bicycles.
I drive two cars, both over 20 years old. The cars still have value (unlike an ev when the battery pack gets to end of life) and are maintained by me (unlike an ev). My insurance is approx £60 per month total.
> unlike an ev when the battery pack gets to end of life
Battery degradation is a thing for sure, but I feel like you’re overlooking a lot of issues with ICE cars here. If a gearbox, engine or exhaust goes “end of life” then the car is essentially worthless until it’s replaced, no?
> maintained by me (unlike an ev)
Why can’t you maintain an EV? Surely things like suspension is mostly the same?
Battery degradation is a thing for sure, but I feel like you’re overlooking a lot of issues with ICE cars here. If a gearbox, engine or exhaust goes “end of life” then the car is essentially worthless until it’s replaced, no?
> maintained by me (unlike an ev)
Why can’t you maintain an EV? Surely things like suspension is mostly the same?
Do you have to pay ULEZ charges? I know this is an issue for many people with older cars.
Walled gardens don't just keep enemies out, they keep customers in – and make excellent targets of opportunity for adjacent/supporting industries like lawyers, insurance, PE, and consolidation.
[deleted]
> whose only change in circumstance was three points on a licence
I had this happen to me about 15 years ago, if by "happen to me" you mean "I committed a criminal offence while in control of a motor vehicle". My insurance went up by about 25% for the following 5 years, which was annoying, but I'm not sure how much attention we should pay to the opinions of a convicted criminal when it comes to the punishment for their crime. It's heartening to hear that we are clamping down on these vermin.
> "...because who has got that kind of money [£4,500] in one go?"
The Tesla Model Y has an RRP of £~45,000, so its owner is probably better placed to answer this question than we are.
I had this happen to me about 15 years ago, if by "happen to me" you mean "I committed a criminal offence while in control of a motor vehicle". My insurance went up by about 25% for the following 5 years, which was annoying, but I'm not sure how much attention we should pay to the opinions of a convicted criminal when it comes to the punishment for their crime. It's heartening to hear that we are clamping down on these vermin.
> "...because who has got that kind of money [£4,500] in one go?"
The Tesla Model Y has an RRP of £~45,000, so its owner is probably better placed to answer this question than we are.
I’ve read a fair few comments on a UK EV forum where insurers were declining to offer renewal quotes for people that claimed to have no claims and no points on their license.
As to your point about RRP.. £45k isn’t cheap but it doesn’t mean the owners (who often lease) will have expected such a huge increase in premiums.
I suspect a lot of the issue is due to issues getting parts post-covid which meant costs to insurers went up (since many offer hire cars while repairs are being carried out).
As to your point about RRP.. £45k isn’t cheap but it doesn’t mean the owners (who often lease) will have expected such a huge increase in premiums.
I suspect a lot of the issue is due to issues getting parts post-covid which meant costs to insurers went up (since many offer hire cars while repairs are being carried out).
Yeah I've seen some data from Tesla insurance claims and it's absolutely eye watering:
Very expensive parts with poor/non existent inventory Limited service network Leading to huge delays in getting repairs done (many months)
As such I think a lot of fairly minor claims go to "write off" territory very quickly.
Tesla does need to solve this as in the UK at least it's becoming a semi-well known fact that Teslas are very difficult and expensive to insure. Much more so than the ropey build quality.
Very expensive parts with poor/non existent inventory Limited service network Leading to huge delays in getting repairs done (many months)
As such I think a lot of fairly minor claims go to "write off" territory very quickly.
Tesla does need to solve this as in the UK at least it's becoming a semi-well known fact that Teslas are very difficult and expensive to insure. Much more so than the ropey build quality.
The post-COVID supply chain issues is a good point. I'd mercifully blanked the entire tedious experience until now reminded of it, but my car needed an insurance repair in 2022 (not my fault this time!): suspension bits, new wheel and tyre, some bodywork. Not at all an unusual car, nor fancy, with tens of thousands just like it on the road. Still took nearly 2 months.
This comment has to be rage bait right? Who takes speeding or any traffic ticket this seriously; convicted criminal, really?
Speeding in a motor vehicle is a criminal offence in the UK.
I think the relevant section is clause 89 here: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/27/part/VI
I think the relevant section is clause 89 here: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/27/part/VI
The majority of traffic tickets (including speeding tickets) are civil offenses and generally not considered a crime.
It's not until you get into reckless driving, street racing, or similar that they move into criminal classes (misdemeanor/felony)
It's not until you get into reckless driving, street racing, or similar that they move into criminal classes (misdemeanor/felony)
That's also part of the general racket of small-town speed traps: if there were real permanent consequences to nonsense speeding tickets, people would contest them instead of paying to make them go away.
I think there's a bit of sarcasm present in this case, but it really is a common sentiment in /r/fuckcars and similar places - and many of those folks are here as well. To them, any driver is a murderer who just hasn't succeeded yet. Really. Any hyperbole is theirs, not mine. I would not be surprised to see more comments similar to GP's, minus any sarcasm, from people with the privilege to afford housing in one of the few places where all of the driving essential to their lifestyle is done out of their sight.
P.S. For those who think cherry-picking is going to win the day, try this search: murder inurl:fuckcars site:reddit.com. I'm not misrepresenting them at all.
P.S. For those who think cherry-picking is going to win the day, try this search: murder inurl:fuckcars site:reddit.com. I'm not misrepresenting them at all.
> [..] it really is a common sentiment in /r/fuckcars and similar places [..] to them, any driver is a murderer who just hasn't succeeded yet. Really. Any hyperbole is theirs, not mine.
I had a look at their subreddit. They currently have one giant thread asking "Do you think cars should be banned outright?", and not a single upvoted comment is even saying yes.[1]
Overall they seem more concerned with how car-centric infrastructure and too many cars in cities reduce quality of life.
It's fair to say you're misrepresenting that community. Why?
[1] https://old.reddit.com/r/fuckcars/comments/16x7d3x/how_extre...
I had a look at their subreddit. They currently have one giant thread asking "Do you think cars should be banned outright?", and not a single upvoted comment is even saying yes.[1]
Overall they seem more concerned with how car-centric infrastructure and too many cars in cities reduce quality of life.
It's fair to say you're misrepresenting that community. Why?
[1] https://old.reddit.com/r/fuckcars/comments/16x7d3x/how_extre...
You must be seeing them on a good day. My general impression of that subreddit is that they are a bunch of raving anti-car lunatics.
Once you've passed your driving test, and spent a bit of time driving on the roads, you'll change your tune!
I've been driving for over 40 years, 300K miles or so, in multiple parts of the US and occasionally other countries, no serious mishaps and totally clean record for over half of that time. If you want to say that most drivers really suck I'll agree, but what was the point of that misguided attempt at character assassination? Read the guidelines before you reply, since you've already stepped over that line.
Well you've got me beat in years and mileage, but I've probably driven, like, 200,000 miles, and my experience has been that people are, by and large, extremely careless when driving cars. They will happily put other people's lives at risk in order to save themselves a handful of seconds, and sometimes it doesn't even come down to that, because they were just looking at their phone and weren't really paying attention.
Don't ever call them out on this though, because you'll never hear the end of it.
Anyway, I don't trust any of them, and if you had any sense, you wouldn't either. But I'm not your dad, so I can't tell you what to do. Good luck out there!
EDIT: you edited your reply? - or (more likely!) I am retarded and missed the last sentence first time round, sorry about that. Anyway, the so-called misguided attempt at character assassination was neither, just a bit of pointed mockery aimed at what I see as a crappy opinion. I stand by it - I think it's vaguely amusing enough to have value for the general reader, and not offensive enough to be really problematic. Page dang if you're still unhappy.
Don't ever call them out on this though, because you'll never hear the end of it.
Anyway, I don't trust any of them, and if you had any sense, you wouldn't either. But I'm not your dad, so I can't tell you what to do. Good luck out there!
EDIT: you edited your reply? - or (more likely!) I am retarded and missed the last sentence first time round, sorry about that. Anyway, the so-called misguided attempt at character assassination was neither, just a bit of pointed mockery aimed at what I see as a crappy opinion. I stand by it - I think it's vaguely amusing enough to have value for the general reader, and not offensive enough to be really problematic. Page dang if you're still unhappy.
I have a Model Y through salary sacrifice. It costs me £500/month. I do have £4,500, but not for insurance. Luckily I am covered by fleet insurance.
Just out of curiosity, in the UK can you get a minimal form of coverage that covers injury/damage to other parties, but not repair of your own vehicle?
Can't speak to what's on offer, but legally you only need liability insurance (the type you described).
> You must have motor insurance to drive your vehicle on UK roads.
> Third party insurance is the legal minimum. This means you’re covered if you have an accident causing damage or injury to any other person, vehicle, animal or property. It does not cover any other costs like repair to your own vehicle.
https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-insurance#:~:text=You%20must%20ha....
> You must have motor insurance to drive your vehicle on UK roads.
> Third party insurance is the legal minimum. This means you’re covered if you have an accident causing damage or injury to any other person, vehicle, animal or property. It does not cover any other costs like repair to your own vehicle.
https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-insurance#:~:text=You%20must%20ha....
Not sure what the populous of folks in the UK is that lease or finance their cars, but any lease or loan requires full coverage so the company protects their asset in case of accidents. I suspect anyone with a brand new Tesla etc is likely to have a loan or would want full coverage.
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My car insurance is $14.20 a month.
What does that cover though?
Their car. For $14.20 a month.
If this was happening to all EV owners we would be seeing them all complaining about it, yet this is an article about one person not a poll showing this is happening widely.