Lindows 4.0 (2003)(baturin.org)
baturin.org
Lindows 4.0 (2003)
https://baturin.org/misc/software-reviews/lindows/
26 comments
Even though it became Lindpire, the spiritual successor to lightweight and windows like was LXDE and Lubuntu.
It was Slackware that pioneered the loadlin boot loader installed on a dos partition that I think li does/linspire picked-up. This was all gradually killed off by ntfs and windows 2k
It was a magical time for Linux with konqueror as a viable desktop browser and galeon as the best browser available until IBM started sponsoring the project to make it like epiphany. Eventually konqueror was absorbed into WebKit for safari, proprietary flash made browsing on Linux unnecessary difficult (gnash came later), and Microsoft lawsuits were customary towards all friendly UX not on a Mac.
It was Slackware that pioneered the loadlin boot loader installed on a dos partition that I think li does/linspire picked-up. This was all gradually killed off by ntfs and windows 2k
It was a magical time for Linux with konqueror as a viable desktop browser and galeon as the best browser available until IBM started sponsoring the project to make it like epiphany. Eventually konqueror was absorbed into WebKit for safari, proprietary flash made browsing on Linux unnecessary difficult (gnash came later), and Microsoft lawsuits were customary towards all friendly UX not on a Mac.
linspire who was using ocaml and then haskell, a rare thing at the time http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/1506
Magical expect for compiling MPlayer by hand and doing voodoo to get the TV Tuner working. But XawTV and AleVT were cool.
Like 20 years ago I was obsessed with getting MythTV running with a TV tuner, but kept running into driver issues and low spec'd hardware. It was still magical to me, though.
TVtime worked faster but if didn't have LIRC support, I can't remember. If it did, it was to setup, much more lightweight but without recording support.
Nowadays Kodi/XBMC it's the spiritual sucessor.
Nowadays Kodi/XBMC it's the spiritual sucessor.
Very fond of lubuntu, which I managed to get installed on NTFS in a directory on my C:drive allowing switching back-and-forth between it and my Windows install, and really wish that that was still a thing.
The focus turned to virtualization
Yeah, that doesn't work for me, since my machines aren't that fast, and I really, really want stylus support which wants hardware access.
What are some good applications which require stylus support on Linux?
Mine was DamnSmallLinux and Slax. I wasn't allowed to install Linux on my family's computer of course, so live CD's were my go-to. Though once I scrounged up enough spare parts from family friends to build a PC, I then got to learn how to force Slax to "install" to a hard drive, which was quite a challenge for me, as it really didn't want to be run off non-live-install media haha
Oh shit, DSL - that was my jam too, felt so special, even though had no clue what I was doing :D
Edit: The site is still alive! http://www.damnsmalllinux.org/
Edit: The site is still alive! http://www.damnsmalllinux.org/
My first distro was Ubuntu 8.04 Server. Kind of funny because I was in high school back then and decided to install Ubuntu on my machine, coming from the Windows world, I thought that it would be cool to run the server version, thinking it would be like Windows Server 2008 (with a desktop). After installing I was shocked to find out that I had no desktop to work with, spent the next 3 days figuring out how to connect my machine to the internet and then eventually downloaded Gnome. Now almost 15 years later I still use Ubuntu as my daily driver, typing this on 22.04
I bought those business card shaped CD-R disks just so I could keep a copy of DSL with me before flash drives were popular.
Many here share that journey. For me, it was printing out the Gentoo "hard mode" installation guide where you compiled _everything_ from scratch, including the kernel.
Didn't make it but it taught me the terminal and some foundational concepts in an OS. Set me down the path of linux (ubuntu - bit easier to install) and hacking.
Didn't make it but it taught me the terminal and some foundational concepts in an OS. Set me down the path of linux (ubuntu - bit easier to install) and hacking.
With my limited exposure to linux when I was a kid, I didn't understand why I needed to or what those `configure; make; make install` commands did. It was until very later when I knew what compiling was or that make is actually a tool to run arbitrary commands.
oh gods, the many many hours I "wasted" recompiling my gentoo installation trying to squeeze more performance out of my gaming machine and prove to all my gaming naysaying friends that linux is no good for gaming.
This was back in the VoodooFX days...
fond memories prior to having a wife.
fond memories prior to having a wife.
I never got there. My poor amdv4 couldn't even finish compiling the kernel without overheating. But I learned a lot about reducing kernel size.
My first mentor in Linux was a sysadmin at the hometown ISP, and my initiation was compiling Gentoo from Stage 1 (the "hard mode" install) on a dual socket P3 700mHz system. I've never done it ever again, but that foundational experience helped me immensely.
Oh that was the holy grail. I also never got there… had to settle for the lower levels of Gentoo purity.
I did it. Worst part was compiling KDE in an Athlon XP. Took days.
For me at least, the longest part was compiling OpenOffice.
Went on a weekend trip. Started the OOO compilation, allowed it to also install some dependencies like Blackdown (?) Java.
Decided, hey, might was well time it, for fun.
I came back 2 days later, it had just finished. The compilation took almost 2 full days :-)
Decided, hey, might was well time it, for fun.
I came back 2 days later, it had just finished. The compilation took almost 2 full days :-)
I did it with a 300 MHz Celeron. You heard me.
I did multiple times on a 900-something mhz Athlon. Back when compile everything was the only option.
> For me, it was printing out the Gentoo "hard mode" installation guide where you compiled _everything_ from scratch, including the kernel.
There was another way to install Gentoo?
There was another way to install Gentoo?
Yes, there were 3 stages, I think. Stage 3 was with some binaries throw in there. Stage 1 required recompiling the compiler at some point.
Oh shit, I remember the stages now, not much about them though. Did you really install Gentoo if you didn't compile the compiler you used to compile the rest of the system from the ground up though?
I'm not sure if this is possible anymore, but for a while, there was a way to copy over the compiled base system from the disk instead of compiling it all from scratch. Running your first emerge -vaDu world might end up recompiling everything anyway, depending on the age of the ISO, but you didn't have to do any compiling to get a base system deployed.
i was going to comment. I think even genkernel is compiled, not that i touch the stuff.
Also quirky was their Lindows Rock: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QSdRTOh2jeA
Do you remember the one they released when they changed name to linspire: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIYtKHnU4mQ memorable
Never knew so many levels of parody and irony could be encapsulated in one flash animation!
Oops… it was WinLinux 2000[1] that came first for me and Lindows shortly after. Apparently the naming permutations worked for at least one person
[1] https://archive.org/details/win-linux-2000
[1] https://archive.org/details/win-linux-2000
Early Lindows employee here, great bit of nostalgia in that post.
On the other side of the dot-com bust there were a lot of hard things that the team achieved even if the adoption never hit.
For example, a $199 PC sold at Walmart was notable for the time. It offered a working desktop with a full productivity suite from first boot. Without opening terminal, updating a repo, dealing with sound card or video card driver issues, etc.
On the other side of the dot-com bust there were a lot of hard things that the team achieved even if the adoption never hit.
For example, a $199 PC sold at Walmart was notable for the time. It offered a working desktop with a full productivity suite from first boot. Without opening terminal, updating a repo, dealing with sound card or video card driver issues, etc.
My dad bought this $200 computer for me and I tried to host a web based game I wrote on it! Ultimately I had to install Fedora Core 2 instead because I couldn’t get the lamp stack working. I remember wondering why Lindows didn’t have problems with graphics / drivers when FC did (what torturous debugging). Thanks for your work!
I ran Debian at the time, but I worked in PC repair, and I remember being really excited about Linux being installed on PCs you could buy at a store.
It felt like there was a small "window" of opportunity where a competitor to MS might have been able to gain some traction. On those low end computers the "Windows tax" could amount to a large percentage of the overall cost.
Sadly I think Lindows was just a little too late to the table. People were already used to the proprietary software they had, and OpenOffice was new and junky - a tough sell for people used to the MS suite. IE was also dominant, and the browser situation on Linux was a real problem due to ActiveX and other IE-only things that kept kicking around for years.
I also think the "Lindows" name did it no favors with those of us who already ran Linux. I remember reading about it on slashdot, but I mostly discounted it for my own use because of the branding.
It felt like there was a small "window" of opportunity where a competitor to MS might have been able to gain some traction. On those low end computers the "Windows tax" could amount to a large percentage of the overall cost.
Sadly I think Lindows was just a little too late to the table. People were already used to the proprietary software they had, and OpenOffice was new and junky - a tough sell for people used to the MS suite. IE was also dominant, and the browser situation on Linux was a real problem due to ActiveX and other IE-only things that kept kicking around for years.
I also think the "Lindows" name did it no favors with those of us who already ran Linux. I remember reading about it on slashdot, but I mostly discounted it for my own use because of the branding.
Linspire was a delightful OS to run! Truly, I feel like the major Linux distros never got to the same level as Linspire on friendliness and ease of use, the competition to Click-N-Run on modern Gnome Software Center just doesn't feel quite as easy at times.
There were so many edge cases on Windows and Linux at the time that Linspire sailed right past with nary an issue.
There were so many edge cases on Windows and Linux at the time that Linspire sailed right past with nary an issue.
Lindows was started by the same Michael Robertson[0], who was behind mp3.com[1], one of the early Internet's rather lucrative IPOs and also involved in a series of litigation around copyrights and later what Matt Levine might now file under "everything is securities fraud"[2].
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Robertson_(businessman... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MP3.com [2] https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-06-26/everyt...
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Robertson_(businessman... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MP3.com [2] https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-06-26/everyt...
I had a branded mp3.com laptop bag, along with other schwag. Through mp3.com I shared some music I was making at the time and a very long time later I received a ASCAP cheque in the mail for about 20 dollars as a result.
I believe the paperwork indicated the music had been played publicly in like France or something. This some 20 years ago and all I have are memories, I was young and more eager to get my cash than anything else. What a wonderful time it was to be online back then.
I believe the paperwork indicated the music had been played publicly in like France or something. This some 20 years ago and all I have are memories, I was young and more eager to get my cash than anything else. What a wonderful time it was to be online back then.
His insistence on pivoting from an amazing site for independent musicians to sell their music, to a piracy/protest site against US copyright law, set indie music on the Internet back by well over a decade.
There still isn't anything like what mp3.com used to be for discovering independent musicians. It is an absolute shame that such an amazing resource was destroyed for the sake of a futile protest.
There still isn't anything like what mp3.com used to be for discovering independent musicians. It is an absolute shame that such an amazing resource was destroyed for the sake of a futile protest.
I come from a poor family and mp3.com was how I made my first proper money as a kid. I did "remixes" of video game music and mp3.com would pay per play. I sometimes made $1000 per month. It was incredible. Sadly, after a couple of month they changed their model and didn't pay indie artists anymore.
Since they weren't charging listeners, and they never had audio ads, it isn't a surprise they stopped paying for plays!
They did happily sell CDs though, which I bought a few of. Quite a few bands used MP3.com to promote their live shows as well.
Entire genres of music thrived on MP3.com, and when the site went away, so did some of those genres, similar to how Soundcloud created entire new genres of music through community and discoverability.
They did happily sell CDs though, which I bought a few of. Quite a few bands used MP3.com to promote their live shows as well.
Entire genres of music thrived on MP3.com, and when the site went away, so did some of those genres, similar to how Soundcloud created entire new genres of music through community and discoverability.
mp3.com was originally hosted on Michael Robertson's personal hobby machine at the supercomputer center.
A little history:
Robertson was an IT intern at SDSC a few years before I got there. One of the nice things about working there was that there was a cabinet in the datacenter that staff were allowed to use to house personal servers. Hardware you brought from home, old Sparcstations you took off the surplus pile in the basement...if you had some idea that needed a system, you could put it there.
By filling out a one-page form, you could get an IP on the 192.31.21.0/24 net (which was space we got from USAF, iirc...) and permission to host whatever you wanted on your old machine in the cabinet in the back row. Obviously, you were required to swear not to do anything illegal or annoying with your root access.
When I setup my first machine there, the long cat5 cable I used to plug into the switch still had "mp3.com" on the label.
A little history:
Robertson was an IT intern at SDSC a few years before I got there. One of the nice things about working there was that there was a cabinet in the datacenter that staff were allowed to use to house personal servers. Hardware you brought from home, old Sparcstations you took off the surplus pile in the basement...if you had some idea that needed a system, you could put it there.
By filling out a one-page form, you could get an IP on the 192.31.21.0/24 net (which was space we got from USAF, iirc...) and permission to host whatever you wanted on your old machine in the cabinet in the back row. Obviously, you were required to swear not to do anything illegal or annoying with your root access.
When I setup my first machine there, the long cat5 cable I used to plug into the switch still had "mp3.com" on the label.
I have found memories of mp3.com. Was a nice way to find cool bands back than, like how Bandcamp is today.
It was much talked about on slashdot when Walmart started selling a PC with Lindows pre-installed.
https://www.wired.com/2002/06/wal-marts-new-lindowsos-pc/
https://www.wired.com/2002/06/wal-marts-new-lindowsos-pc/
My prototyping team bought one of those Walmart Lindows machines to play around with and I remember being impressed, especially with the way a user could find and install software packages. I think the machine sold for some trivial amount, like, $200.
> the way a user could find and install software packages.
And even with app stores neither Windows nor macOS come close to the seamless experience of updating all software from a single place.
Apple had, for some time, OS updates in the App Store, but not anymore. The software update in the preferences app is a step backward in that sense - why have two ways of doing everything?
And Windows is even worse. I have at least 6 apps I need to open if I want the Windows machine to update everything.
And even with app stores neither Windows nor macOS come close to the seamless experience of updating all software from a single place.
Apple had, for some time, OS updates in the App Store, but not anymore. The software update in the preferences app is a step backward in that sense - why have two ways of doing everything?
And Windows is even worse. I have at least 6 apps I need to open if I want the Windows machine to update everything.
I bought one of my parents a Walmart PC with Lindows. It worked out pretty much the same as a Chromebook would today, but with more apps.
My mom was on Ubuntu since she upgraded from MacOS 9. She even learned to run the update GUI by herself and would call me to tell she did it.
Sadly, my evil cousin upgraded her PC with Windows and I no longer know when she needs to update or clean up the disk.
Sadly, my evil cousin upgraded her PC with Windows and I no longer know when she needs to update or clean up the disk.
My mom used linux from the late 90s through the early 2000s. She did not adapt well to using a mouse and windows but wanted to do online shopping so I set her up with a machine that started directly to a full screen browser and dialed the internet as soon as an internet connection was needed. She eventually got good enough with her mouse that she moved on to an XP laptop but I really loved being able to tell people that my mom runs Debian.
My dad and I got my grandmother set up with an EEE PC for sending emails. I don't know if she ever used it (perhaps she emailed my dad, but she wouldn't have been emailing me) but I remember setting it up to be as easy to use as I could (e.g. big icon that said "Letters" underneath for an email application) and writing her instructions.
It's funny how this article is really biased by the more recent perspective on things, like how flash is bad and running around with root was a terrible thing. It likely is today and was unsafe then but those were simpler days before linux mindshare even existed enough for people to make exploits for it.
meta note: the article is actually not from 2003, but is from 2018. The title itself is "Lindows 4.0 (2003)", not sure if adding a (2018) to the end would confuse things.
meta note: the article is actually not from 2003, but is from 2018. The title itself is "Lindows 4.0 (2003)", not sure if adding a (2018) to the end would confuse things.
Linux actually always had the security architecture with normal users not having root privileges, so giving the default user root privileges would have been frowned upon even back in 2003. However, Windows did it (until Windows Vista), so Lindows apparently felt obliged to follow suit...
In practice, is running as root really that bad for a single-user personal computer? Most of your data is already accessible by your user account - root wouldn't actually give you much more. Not to mention, even if you do use separate accounts or "sudo", 99% of non-tech-savvy users will happily type their password in any dialog that looks like the official "sudo" dialog, so non-root malware can elevate its privileges that way anyway.
There's an xkcd for everything. https://xkcd.com/1200/
Because encrypting the disk and using two separate accounts is too difficult...
One for leisure, another one for serious stuff.
One for leisure, another one for serious stuff.
This means that 1) you need to guard against privilege escalation exploits and 2) you need to make sure that your logout/login screen actually happens on the OS's login screen and not malware that opens a fullscreen window mimicking it (Windows has the Secure Attention Key/sequence for this, I don't think Linux has any of that).
It's not just about whether doing the secure thing is difficult, it's whether doing the other things needed to defend against that risk is difficult - if you don't do those too, then it's still worthless and you're merely inconveniencing yourself for no reason because any attacks would use the methods of the first paragraph to work around your use of multiple accounts.
It's not just about whether doing the secure thing is difficult, it's whether doing the other things needed to defend against that risk is difficult - if you don't do those too, then it's still worthless and you're merely inconveniencing yourself for no reason because any attacks would use the methods of the first paragraph to work around your use of multiple accounts.
Well, I find that innecesary. If you set OpenBSD encryption with bioctl, no one will tamper with your data if the machine is turned off. On the exploits, very difficult to do so, pledge, unveil and OpenBSD mitigations work.
And the login manager it's usually XenoDM (forked XDM), GDM or whatever X.org based DE manager the user got installed, and that's impossible to tamper with with user permissions.
On potential malware, well, first you need to run it, and yes, any software could dump keyboard and mouse input under your account by design, but for sysadmins, XTerm has a secure keyboard input mode where the keyboard and mouse are bound to that XTerm window and you can't do anything else except to type in that XTerm, because the input it's locked to that window. Nothing can't sniff from that terminal emulator window, the channel is locked.
The only thing you could do it's to switch to VT with Ctrl-Alt-[F1-F7], but forget doing anything in the window manager. You can input to the XTerm and select info with the mouse and no more.
And the login manager it's usually XenoDM (forked XDM), GDM or whatever X.org based DE manager the user got installed, and that's impossible to tamper with with user permissions.
On potential malware, well, first you need to run it, and yes, any software could dump keyboard and mouse input under your account by design, but for sysadmins, XTerm has a secure keyboard input mode where the keyboard and mouse are bound to that XTerm window and you can't do anything else except to type in that XTerm, because the input it's locked to that window. Nothing can't sniff from that terminal emulator window, the channel is locked.
The only thing you could do it's to switch to VT with Ctrl-Alt-[F1-F7], but forget doing anything in the window manager. You can input to the XTerm and select info with the mouse and no more.
Linux has a secure attention key, but it only works in the standard console mode, not X or Wayland. https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/security/sak.html
Lindows was renamed to Linspire. I think Linspire changed the base or some such at some point after that, then died some years later. But, Linspire released 12.0 last month.
https://www.linspirelinux.com/2023/03/linspire-12-released.h...
https://www.linspirelinux.com/2023/03/linspire-12-released.h...
[deleted]
Not excactly Lindows related but I still think that KDE2 reached some sort of ideal of unix desktop metaphor GUI design, and all KDE after it were sort of a regression. For similar reasons this is why I use XFCE now.
Current KDE Plasma is the best desktop out there period.
I've been using KDE since the 3.2 days, with long stints on GNOME, Unity, Windows, and macOS mixed in, and I strongly feel the same. Contemporary Plasma is really, really good.
Also riding the "KDE Plasma rules" train.
While I agree with you (KDE user myself), I think the two primary desktops (Gnome/KDE) are serving two different purposes at this point.
Gnome seems to be catering more towards a 'hybrid' approach, easier to use with touch, laptops, simple out of box. The touchpad gestures are phenomenal and usability with portable/touch devices is really good. Wayland integration and scaling is miles ahead of KDE at the moment.
KDE is catering towards customization and traditional desktop use. There's more out-of-box features and using it on traditional desktop with keyboard and mouse make it really stand out. Their workspaces and KDE connect features are incredible.
Gnome seems to be catering more towards a 'hybrid' approach, easier to use with touch, laptops, simple out of box. The touchpad gestures are phenomenal and usability with portable/touch devices is really good. Wayland integration and scaling is miles ahead of KDE at the moment.
KDE is catering towards customization and traditional desktop use. There's more out-of-box features and using it on traditional desktop with keyboard and mouse make it really stand out. Their workspaces and KDE connect features are incredible.
What was wrong with KDE3? I never used 2 but I was very happy with 3
Trinity Desktop (forked from KDE 3.5.10) seems to still be going—- last release was on 20221030:
https://www.trinitydesktop.org/news.php
https://www.trinitydesktop.org/news.php
I used them both, and think 3 was better. GNOME, on the other hand, was OK at version 1 (contemporaneous with KDE 2, which I still liked better), and went to shit at version 2 (contemporaneous with KDE 3).
I used to use KDE2 back then, I loved that you could set different Windows decorations for each Window (or is my memory tricking me?) and have a global menu bar optionally.
I did not like KDE3 as much bc they removed these features and ended up with GNOME2, and eventually MATE.
I did not like KDE3 as much bc they removed these features and ended up with GNOME2, and eventually MATE.
PS: I think it was GNOME 1 with the sawfish window manager. KDE2 did support theming the windows decorations, but on second thought, I don't think one could set different looks per window.
Not the same, but I deployed Corel Linux with WordPerfect to a corporate environment back in 2001 as an attempt to “disrupt the status quo”.
One elderly secretary used it with zero issues for a few years, so I guess it was a success.
One elderly secretary used it with zero issues for a few years, so I guess it was a success.
Interestingly, the Lindows software was originally developed under contract by the Corel developers. The Corel developers became Xandros (another Linux distribution) and eventually won the non-payment lawsuit against Michael Robertson. Linspire (as it was then legally know as a result of a successful lawsuit by Microsoft) quickly went insolvent and was bought out by Xandros, who within a year stopped making payroll and the corporate principals slipped into the night.
As a Xandros employee I visited the Linspire office in San Diego, Ca;ifornia: it was a small industrial condo where the front half was an opulent personal office for Michael Robertson and the back half basically a closet where the other 4 to 6 employees worked.
As a Xandros employee I visited the Linspire office in San Diego, Ca;ifornia: it was a small industrial condo where the front half was an opulent personal office for Michael Robertson and the back half basically a closet where the other 4 to 6 employees worked.
In 2000 I installed Linux (and BSD) on various spare Compaq DS10 and DS20 Alpha machines to test it against the stock Tru64 because of a bug that caused local network packet losses when using unconnected protocols like UDP even at very low speeds, and it was 100% reproducible. We later discovered that that packet loss was due to an interrupt fired by the video card driver that would literally kill everything for a fraction of second. That's why we use protocols like TCP, but again, that shouldn't have happened to that extent. Application was ATC so video cards were quite high end.
I used the Mgen and Drec tools by the US Navy that I modified to run them in a many-to-many configuration, so that I could for example let them run synchronized tasks over a weekend and compare the logs on the following Monday.
Fun fact: Installing Linux on spare machines (we had plenty, one was used as doorstop, no kidding) was our idea. Our PM at the time, which was very likely the most ignorant one I ever had to interact with, didn't veto the initiative, still criticized it anyway because "Linux is amateurish, you should use something more professional". Long story short, after most part of the group, including myself, left because of that idiot, he was finally fired, and according to a colleague who kept working there, after a couple years they started moving everything to Linux.
Fun fact: Installing Linux on spare machines (we had plenty, one was used as doorstop, no kidding) was our idea. Our PM at the time, which was very likely the most ignorant one I ever had to interact with, didn't veto the initiative, still criticized it anyway because "Linux is amateurish, you should use something more professional". Long story short, after most part of the group, including myself, left because of that idiot, he was finally fired, and according to a colleague who kept working there, after a couple years they started moving everything to Linux.
I used Corel Linux for a while and it was really good.
I tried to install it out of nostalgia on a VM to compare what we could do with it with very little mhz and MB of memory with what we have now but it started at such a low resolution that I couldn't run the installer and I didn't have the patience to try some kernel command line arguments to force a resolution.
I tried to install it out of nostalgia on a VM to compare what we could do with it with very little mhz and MB of memory with what we have now but it started at such a low resolution that I couldn't run the installer and I didn't have the patience to try some kernel command line arguments to force a resolution.
Never used the distro but enjoyed The Lindows Rock: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSdRTOh2jeA
And then after it was renamed Linspire: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIYtKHnU4mQ
And then after it was renamed Linspire: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIYtKHnU4mQ
>"Lindows Rock"
Loved it. Brilliant
Loved it. Brilliant
> The menu is made to look as Windows-like as possible. In every section, there's a link to Click'n'Run. How many programs in each category it could actually offer is impossible to find out by now.
Not so - you can see these at the Internet Archive, e.g. https://web.archive.org/web/20020624035714/http://www.lindow...
Not so - you can see these at the Internet Archive, e.g. https://web.archive.org/web/20020624035714/http://www.lindow...
I don't know if my mind is playing tricks on me, but that guy with the bomb feels very familiar. I didn't recall dabbling in KDE that early.
I remember my brother-in-law introducing me to Linux via Knoppix around that time, though.
I remember my brother-in-law introducing me to Linux via Knoppix around that time, though.
> There once was a time when desktop adoption was seen as the most important goal for Linux
Well, that hasn't changed, but people have convinced themselves that Linux on the desktop is 100% fine, and if you don't like it, the problem is you.
Well, that hasn't changed, but people have convinced themselves that Linux on the desktop is 100% fine, and if you don't like it, the problem is you.
Ah yes, 2003: the year of Linux on the desktop.
Linux came pretty close to being usable for the general public (not gamers) 13-14 years ago. Then Gnome 3 happened and broke everything, then Wayland happened and broke everything again.
As much as Linus tries to keep a stable platform, the effort is pretty pointless (for desktop) if the rest of the ecosystem decides to change everything every few years.
As much as Linus tries to keep a stable platform, the effort is pretty pointless (for desktop) if the rest of the ecosystem decides to change everything every few years.
>Linux came pretty close to being usable for the general public (not gamers) 13-14 years ago. Then Gnome 3 happened and broke everything, then Wayland happened and broke everything again.
Funny how that just keeps happening, isn't it?
Funny how that just keeps happening, isn't it?
I don't think it's deliberate if that's what you implying, but there is a definite lack of care about not breaking the ecosystem (for lack of a better word) that harms the whole "Linux in the desktop" ideal.
Which is to be expected given that it's free and people do what is fun to them (and greenfield is always more fun) and all that, but it's still a shame.
Which is to be expected given that it's free and people do what is fun to them (and greenfield is always more fun) and all that, but it's still a shame.
I DO think it's deliberate if that's what you implying. There's a lot of money riding on Linux being the go-to server OS. If a bunch of NORMIES start using Linux on the desktop, and get a Linux virus (because those will surely appear, if Linux is ever popular on the desktop), it'll hurt Linux's mystique as "hack-proof".
> I'm so totally impressed at this Way New Development Paradigm. Let's call it the "Cascade of Attention-Deficit Teenagers" model, or "CADT" for short.
> It hardly seems worth even having a bug system if the frequency of from-scratch rewrites always outstrips the pace of bug fixing. Why not be honest and resign yourself to the fact that version 0.8 is followed by version 0.8, which is then followed by version 0.8?
> But that's what happens when there is no incentive for people to do the parts of programming that aren't fun. Fixing bugs isn't fun; going through the bug list isn't fun; but rewriting everything from scratch is fun (because "this time it will be done right", ha ha) and so that's what happens, over and over again.
https://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html
The article is 20 years old, it can vote now (and drink, in most places).
> It hardly seems worth even having a bug system if the frequency of from-scratch rewrites always outstrips the pace of bug fixing. Why not be honest and resign yourself to the fact that version 0.8 is followed by version 0.8, which is then followed by version 0.8?
> But that's what happens when there is no incentive for people to do the parts of programming that aren't fun. Fixing bugs isn't fun; going through the bug list isn't fun; but rewriting everything from scratch is fun (because "this time it will be done right", ha ha) and so that's what happens, over and over again.
https://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html
The article is 20 years old, it can vote now (and drink, in most places).
Xorg getting replaced is bound to happen, even without wayland. Security is not an afterthought anymore and getting Xorg fully locked down without sacrificing functionalities seems to be impossible.
These days, I'm debating the last time the desktop (or laptop) was relevant. Outside of professional settings, PC use has fallen off a cliff.
Just go to a coffee shop near a school or a public library and you will see how relevant laptops are.
I live in a gentrified part of Dublin, and all laptops I see are MacBooks. And the Intel ones are starting to vanish.
It only reinforces the fact that laptops / desktops are relevant, regardless of the income capabilities of the owners.
Still, tablets are mostly used for entertainment while laptops are most used for work. Even then, the people writing things rarely use the tablet alone, usually going with a cover with a keyboard (making it a laptop running iOS or Android).
The two things stopping me from getting a Macbook are the metal chassis (it's uncomfortable) and lack of a good data recovery story.
To be fair, how much of it is the form factor and physical keyboard, rather than the actual capabilities of a general-purpose OS (which I assume is what is implied when talking about relevance of laptops/desktops)?
I bet a lot of these people would be served just fine by a Chromebook or iOS-like experience.
I bet a lot of these people would be served just fine by a Chromebook or iOS-like experience.
Given that Chromebooks are always on sale on German electronic stores until finally someone takes them away, I doubt it. They are pretty much an US phenomenon.
In any case, a flagship Chromebook running Crostini is hardly any different from GNU/Linux laptop, other than the fact that GNU/Linux is running on its own container.
In any case, a flagship Chromebook running Crostini is hardly any different from GNU/Linux laptop, other than the fact that GNU/Linux is running on its own container.
There really was a period of being able to install and run the most well known games (Quake, UT, etc) on Linux that didn’t come back for 20 years until Steamdeck happened.
For me it was 1998 because that is the year I turned 18, got to have my own laptop (well, the old family one once my dad upgraded) and realized windows 98 was such a waste of resources and freedom was knocking at the door.
Barry Kauler will tell you that a root by default user isn’t such a bad idea
I immediately started thinking of Puppy Linux when I saw that. My first Linux, d'aww...
I’m drawn to it even these days. I’ll be messing about with EasyOS soon..
Old linux distros were a magical time, back when Linux was lightweight and snappy. Now Linux is more bloated than windows ever was and I’ve had more problems with systemd than i can count. Linux just isn’t fun anymore, even its DEs have become bland and uncustomizeable, looking at you gnome.
The thing that stood out to me most was one of the screenshots claiming this:
> An application mostly receives the SIGSEGV signal due to a bug in the application. The application was asked to save its documents.
Were Lindows applications really trying to handle SIGSEGV in this way?
> An application mostly receives the SIGSEGV signal due to a bug in the application. The application was asked to save its documents.
Were Lindows applications really trying to handle SIGSEGV in this way?
Lindows enduring legacy is Click n Run, one of the first app stores.
Lindows (or maybe it was Linspire by then) was one of the first distros I used that I remember working with my wireless card on my laptop in 2004 or 2005. There was a famous issue back then with Atheros (I think it was Atheros) chipsets that were in some D-Link or Linksys PCMCIA cards that just wouldn't work on Linux and trying to get wireless to work on another distro (Mandrake) is where I got to learn about the concept of binary blobs and how serious people were about anything proprietary touching their precious desktops. I was just a girl who wanted to have her 16" Sony VAIO work in the living room of her apartment without having to drag a long-ass Ethernet cable. Anyway, my search for a working solution led me to discover Lindows, which was in the news over the CEO's intentional fuckery with Microsoft, and it didn't have a good reputation in the OSS community and it cost $50 or $60 that I was absolutely not going to pay, but then a free version of I think it was version 4.5 became available via OSNews or ArsTechnica.
In any event, I ended up trying it out and although I didn't like all the decisions, it was the first Linux distro that not only worked with WiFi out of the box (or with very little effort) and it had proprietary media codecs installed too so I could play my music and videos. I also remember the promise of the Click-N-Run technology, though I was happy enough with Apt.
I don't remember the reason now, but I got frustrated with something about Linspire and then went to Fedora Core -- or I tried to, but it didn't work with my WiFi card -- before stumbling upon this brand new distro with this weird African name called Ubuntu. Ubuntu had everything Linspire had in terms of out of the box flourishes (or was close enough to get that stuff working) but didn't have the negative reputation amongst the Linux nerds or a CEO who seemed hellbent on doing everything he could to antagonize everyone. Even better, it had spins for both a KDE and a Gnome version and the founder was some rich guy who would even send people a ton of CDs if they wanted them, for free. (I think I still have some of those CDs in my parents house somewhere from 2004 or 2005). As a 19 year old, that was pretty clutch for me and it became my secondary OS after Windows XP.
As a college student, I'll always remember Lindows/Linspire for the amount of drama it kicked up in the OSS spaces (and with Microsoft over the name) but more importantly, being the distro that for whatever reason led me to discover Ubuntu in its first few months of existence.
It's funny to think back now on just how hated it was amongst the Linux community -- which is sort of a shame. Like yes, Michael Robertson was always incredibly sketchy seeming and he absolutely had no time for the OSS nerds (it was clearly about profit for him, not ideology), but at the same time, Lindows/Linspire was one of the first Linux distros that out of the box could be something a normal computer user would actually be comfortable setting up and that was trying very hard at user-first decisions.
I've never shied away from doing things the "harder" or "more technical" way, but there were decisions made in Linux distros at that time that really made you really have to go out of your way to get things done and that then tried to shame you for wanting something like a working WiFi driver for your 802.11g card (because going back down to 802.11b was not great), regardless of the binary blob nature, or jump through way too many hoops to get codecs installed that would play your movies and videos. Lindows/Linspire had an elegance about it that I hadn't seen in a Linux distro before. And although Ubuntu briefly won my heart (before I gave it over to my truest of true loves, Mac OS X), I'll always fondly remember Linspire, if only for being audacious enough to actually make a Linux distro that wasn't designed for enthusiasts.
In any event, I ended up trying it out and although I didn't like all the decisions, it was the first Linux distro that not only worked with WiFi out of the box (or with very little effort) and it had proprietary media codecs installed too so I could play my music and videos. I also remember the promise of the Click-N-Run technology, though I was happy enough with Apt.
I don't remember the reason now, but I got frustrated with something about Linspire and then went to Fedora Core -- or I tried to, but it didn't work with my WiFi card -- before stumbling upon this brand new distro with this weird African name called Ubuntu. Ubuntu had everything Linspire had in terms of out of the box flourishes (or was close enough to get that stuff working) but didn't have the negative reputation amongst the Linux nerds or a CEO who seemed hellbent on doing everything he could to antagonize everyone. Even better, it had spins for both a KDE and a Gnome version and the founder was some rich guy who would even send people a ton of CDs if they wanted them, for free. (I think I still have some of those CDs in my parents house somewhere from 2004 or 2005). As a 19 year old, that was pretty clutch for me and it became my secondary OS after Windows XP.
As a college student, I'll always remember Lindows/Linspire for the amount of drama it kicked up in the OSS spaces (and with Microsoft over the name) but more importantly, being the distro that for whatever reason led me to discover Ubuntu in its first few months of existence.
It's funny to think back now on just how hated it was amongst the Linux community -- which is sort of a shame. Like yes, Michael Robertson was always incredibly sketchy seeming and he absolutely had no time for the OSS nerds (it was clearly about profit for him, not ideology), but at the same time, Lindows/Linspire was one of the first Linux distros that out of the box could be something a normal computer user would actually be comfortable setting up and that was trying very hard at user-first decisions.
I've never shied away from doing things the "harder" or "more technical" way, but there were decisions made in Linux distros at that time that really made you really have to go out of your way to get things done and that then tried to shame you for wanting something like a working WiFi driver for your 802.11g card (because going back down to 802.11b was not great), regardless of the binary blob nature, or jump through way too many hoops to get codecs installed that would play your movies and videos. Lindows/Linspire had an elegance about it that I hadn't seen in a Linux distro before. And although Ubuntu briefly won my heart (before I gave it over to my truest of true loves, Mac OS X), I'll always fondly remember Linspire, if only for being audacious enough to actually make a Linux distro that wasn't designed for enthusiasts.
Thanks for the trip down memory lane… thinking about the long ethernet cable also jogged my memory of the problematic position wifi on laptops had with linux around that time. That and running a box fan under my Gateway laptop in order to make it thru the Linux installer long enough to hack on enabling ACPI thermal management. I think Lindows worked out of the box for that too.
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I think it was Lindows that was ahead of its time with its own app store-type deal before they were cool.
I think its modern spiritual successor would be something like Zorin right?
Or elementary for the mac users.
Or elementary for the mac users.
I remember it partially, these images spark something in me, but without any context. No idea when, where and why I tried it. I'm pretty sure it's Lindows specifically and not just KDE.
See also WinLinux and WinLinux 2000: https://archiveos.org/winlinux/
This all looks familiar. I probably installed Lindows at some point to test it.
I had heard of it at the time, but never got a look at it. Thanks!
The one area where I don't advocate for GNU/Linux is in graphical user interfaces. The year of the Linux desktop will never come. For whatever reason, the cathedral can make a much better GUI than the bazaar.
> The year of the Linux desktop will never come
Probably true. But largely irrelevant.
> the cathedral can make a much better GUI than the bazaar.
Can is such an open ended claim it's impossible to judge (there's always another tomorrow). But does? Not so sure. I've used the big 3 extensively. I don't buy into the dafter reaches of Linux advocacy ("your great-grandmother could install it & have no problems & it's way easier than ...). But OTOH the annoyances I get from running Fedora as my main machine are at least no greater than I've had with Windows and MacOS. I prefer it because its balance of positives and negatives suit my preferences best; but I don't find any of the 3 main desktop OS's categorically superior. Admittedly that's because they're all pretty dismal. Every unhappy OS is unhappy in its own way. And every desktop OS is unhappy.
Probably true. But largely irrelevant.
> the cathedral can make a much better GUI than the bazaar.
Can is such an open ended claim it's impossible to judge (there's always another tomorrow). But does? Not so sure. I've used the big 3 extensively. I don't buy into the dafter reaches of Linux advocacy ("your great-grandmother could install it & have no problems & it's way easier than ...). But OTOH the annoyances I get from running Fedora as my main machine are at least no greater than I've had with Windows and MacOS. I prefer it because its balance of positives and negatives suit my preferences best; but I don't find any of the 3 main desktop OS's categorically superior. Admittedly that's because they're all pretty dismal. Every unhappy OS is unhappy in its own way. And every desktop OS is unhappy.
The year of the Linux desktop came for me in the early '00s. Since then, I find that there has been some improvements here and there but an overall general decline in usability and quality for desktop systems with GUIs.
To each their own.
Edit: Had my dates wrong at first, in case you caught it for that minute.
To each their own.
Edit: Had my dates wrong at first, in case you caught it for that minute.
> For whatever reason, the cathedral can make a much better GUI than the bazaar.
Er. Given Windows 8-11, the cathedral can also do so much worse. I'm not sure that's meaningful.
Er. Given Windows 8-11, the cathedral can also do so much worse. I'm not sure that's meaningful.
They can, yet the hoards of migrations that keep being announced since Windows XP never come true, regardless how bad Apple, Microsoft and Google might release some of their OSes.
This is because they are all monopolies.
My employer only allows Windows for PCs and iOS for phones.
If i buy i smartphone at a resonable price there is only Android. (no i will not pay 500 Euros for a thing that costs 50 Euros).
My employer only allows Windows for PCs and iOS for phones.
If i buy i smartphone at a resonable price there is only Android. (no i will not pay 500 Euros for a thing that costs 50 Euros).
How many games written with the NDK in C/C++/OpenGL ES/Vulkan/OpenSL get ported from Android or ChromeOS into GNU/Linux?
Almost none, instead Windows gets kind of emulated via Proton, thus making irrelevant any business reasons to target GNU/Linux directly.
Almost none, instead Windows gets kind of emulated via Proton, thus making irrelevant any business reasons to target GNU/Linux directly.
I really think that within 20 years a Linux desktop will be the dominant platform/choice.
Hardware & Application support is what challenges Linux adoption on Desktop (well, Laptop, because people hardly use desktop these days).
Major desktop environment UIs are just as fine, if not better. They're just unfamiliar.
Major desktop environment UIs are just as fine, if not better. They're just unfamiliar.
Hardware support imo is pretty good on Linux, if not better than on OS X/Windows. Especially legacy hardware.
In themselves, each desktop is OK, the problem is that the UI experience is fragmented across several different toolkits (i.e. gtk, qt, etc) so it doesn't look consistent.
Windows and Mac do not have this problem.
The other problem is that a client-server architecture is inefficient for a locally rendered UI.
In themselves, each desktop is OK, the problem is that the UI experience is fragmented across several different toolkits (i.e. gtk, qt, etc) so it doesn't look consistent.
Windows and Mac do not have this problem.
The other problem is that a client-server architecture is inefficient for a locally rendered UI.
> Especially legacy hardware.
OTOH, when you buy a new laptop from a budget vendor or with slightly obscure HW, you have to wait 6month - 1year for all drivers to work well.
> the problem is that the UI experience is fragmented across several different toolkits
On windows also, most applications use their custom UI.
> client-server architecture is inefficient for a locally rendered UI.
Never a problem in practice. KDE is much faster and lighter than Windows 10.
OTOH, when you buy a new laptop from a budget vendor or with slightly obscure HW, you have to wait 6month - 1year for all drivers to work well.
> the problem is that the UI experience is fragmented across several different toolkits
On windows also, most applications use their custom UI.
> client-server architecture is inefficient for a locally rendered UI.
Never a problem in practice. KDE is much faster and lighter than Windows 10.
Maybe true, but interestingly, Linux is about 10% of laptop market share (7.5% ChromeOS/ChromiumOS, 2.5% Linux), already fairly successful. (And ChromeOS can and does run Linux applications now.)
I don't consider ChromiumOS to be GNU/Linux. The kernel itself doesn't count -- obviously the kernel has little to do with the user experience. Android is much different than the experience of an X11/Gnome or KDE desktop. The graphics stack is entirely different.
ChromeOS runs GNU/Linux on a VM running on top of gVisor, in selected Chromebooks, it is hardly a feature that every Chromebook owner can count on.
The Cathedral might make a better GUI, but damned if the Cathedral can stick to a single GUI and not gratuitously break workflows.
Cathedrals have QA, UX, etc. People who aren't software developers that just care about the user's experience.
> Cathedrals have QA, UX, etc.
Some 10 years ago, maybe. Hiding scrollbars, making them small, gray on gray - that is not QA and UX.
Some 10 years ago, maybe. Hiding scrollbars, making them small, gray on gray - that is not QA and UX.
Same here, the Year of Desktop Linux VM is the best it can get.
With exception of NeXTSTEP, Irix, NeWS, UNIX is only good at headless workloads anyway, even POSIX doesn't cover GUIs.
With exception of NeXTSTEP, Irix, NeWS, UNIX is only good at headless workloads anyway, even POSIX doesn't cover GUIs.
KDE Plasma is miles ahead of Windows/OSX.
The barrier will always be pre-installed OS. Needing to fiddle in the BIOS before you can install is a bridge too far.
The barrier will always be pre-installed OS. Needing to fiddle in the BIOS before you can install is a bridge too far.
Preferences are preferences, but mine would be Cinnamon DE.
Simple, fast, lots of functionality. Reminds me of all the best parts of Windows XP and the focus is on tasks/programs and not full-screen apps like modern Gnome.
And almost as lightweight as FVWM (not quite, but closer than most mainstream DEs).
Simple, fast, lots of functionality. Reminds me of all the best parts of Windows XP and the focus is on tasks/programs and not full-screen apps like modern Gnome.
And almost as lightweight as FVWM (not quite, but closer than most mainstream DEs).
> KDE Plasma is miles ahead of Windows/OSX.
For some, I'm sure this true but it's never quite worked for me. It's opinionated, which is fine but that means it isn't going to work for everybody.
For some, I'm sure this true but it's never quite worked for me. It's opinionated, which is fine but that means it isn't going to work for everybody.
KDE is anything but opinionated. You can pretty much change anything you want in it.
Pretty sure you're talking about something else. KDE is famous for being the most configurable desktop within at least 4.24 light years, probably much more.
It’s configurable yes, but it has plenty of quirks and bits of design that can’t be changed without getting one’s hands dirty and forking. Those are what people will likely find disagreeable, more than anything that can be changed.
If KDE is opinionated then what Windows and MacOS are?
They’re opinionated too, though I’d say Windows to the least degree with its “anything goes” attitude it’s had since the mid-late 90s.
I don't know if we're using the same KDE, but KDE has always been about options.
Historically configurability of major OSes/DEs has almost always been:
1. KDE
2. Gnome 2
3. Windows
4. Gnome >2
5. MacOS
Historically configurability of major OSes/DEs has almost always been:
1. KDE
2. Gnome 2
3. Windows
4. Gnome >2
5. MacOS
Looking back, I realize now I’d been a self-denying computer geek before then but for whatever reason Lindows, it’s wacky installer, dual boot support, and fortunate hardware compatibility gave me the right nudge at the right time to send me on a lifetime of hacking.
Almost 25 years later, most as a professional software engineer, I have a completely biased affection for this strange OS.
Thanks for sharing!