Wait, Are We Supposed to Tip 25% Everywhere Now?(foodandwine.com)
foodandwine.com
Wait, Are We Supposed to Tip 25% Everywhere Now?
https://www.foodandwine.com/fwpro/tipping-is-out-of-control
20 comments
People say that again and again but at the end of the day, unless everyone collectively stops tipping, or the government intervenes nothing will change. And since the government won't make any progress the only thing consumers can do is withhold their tip.
Business owners don't give a single flying expletive if you tip their workers. Stopping tipping would probably not even be something they notice, except in the context of someone saying "hey boss, people stopped tipping us"
They absolutely would notice, you are only allowed to under pay tipped staff under the assumption that with tips they rise above min wage. No tips and all of sudden you have to make the difference from 2.50 ish an hour to min wage which can be 16+ here.
these owners will likely just cut hours or reduce hours and jack up prices.
Shouldn’t that be the point?
If the argument is that tipping keeps their prices low (costs/wages), aren’t you just ending up paying the same price anyways in the end? Like, why all this extra BS?
Just pay decent wages, set fair prices, and make no more tipping “the norm” instead.
If the argument is that tipping keeps their prices low (costs/wages), aren’t you just ending up paying the same price anyways in the end? Like, why all this extra BS?
Just pay decent wages, set fair prices, and make no more tipping “the norm” instead.
> Stopping tipping would probably not even be something they notice
Eventually they would. When the cashier at the yoghurt shop mentioned realizes that they can get paid more at some other shop / restaurant, the owner would realize they have to pay more to get employees.
Unfortunately, this would be a slow process.
Eventually they would. When the cashier at the yoghurt shop mentioned realizes that they can get paid more at some other shop / restaurant, the owner would realize they have to pay more to get employees.
Unfortunately, this would be a slow process.
No. That won't effect change, it will just rob hard working people of their agreed upon payment for their work. It is assumed, and agreed upon, that we will tip. If we want to change that, we need to donis systematically at the soceity/government level, not by robbing people.
> No. That won't effect change, it will just rob hard working people of their agreed upon payment for their work. It is assumed, and agreed upon, that we will tip.
The article is talking about the proliferation of tipping. It is certainly _not_ assumed or agreed upon that all the places asking for tips should be receiving them. Furthermore, even the places that traditionally expect tips have never actually had an agreed upon amount.
So no people are certainly not being robbed when they aren't paid something that people never agreed to pay them.
The article is talking about the proliferation of tipping. It is certainly _not_ assumed or agreed upon that all the places asking for tips should be receiving them. Furthermore, even the places that traditionally expect tips have never actually had an agreed upon amount.
So no people are certainly not being robbed when they aren't paid something that people never agreed to pay them.
I'm not speaking about places where tipping isn't expected. I'm talking about a sit down restaurant, where it is expected. It's not right to not tip where it is expected. If it's not expected, of course it's fair to not tip.
You’re talking about this as if it’s binary. Someone who tips 5% is still tipping, but the server isn’t likely to be happy about it. The point is that there is no agreement on tipping since “tip me something” isn’t really an agreement. So someone supposedly under tipping isn’t “robbing” anything since no agreement on a tip has been made beforehand. The only agreed upon price is what’s on the menu (plus applicable taxes).
That's simply not true. Minimum wage for a tipped employee in thr US is $2.13 an hour. Minimum wage for a non tipped employee in the us is over $7 an hour. So an employee that is expected to get tips needs to make up that difference to be able to live.
This doesn’t contradict a single thing that I wrote.
Yes it does
I don't know what to say but re-read my comments. You are clearly not understanding them.
Or, if you'd like, point out exactly (meaning quote) what statement I made which is contradicted by that comment.
Or, if you'd like, point out exactly (meaning quote) what statement I made which is contradicted by that comment.
This is your entire comment:
"People say that again and again but at the end of the day, unless everyone collectively stops tipping, or the government intervenes nothing will change. And since the government won't make any progress the only thing consumers can do is withhold their tip."
This is what I'm taking issue with:
"And since the government won't make any progress the only thing consumers can do is withhold their tip."
"People say that again and again but at the end of the day, unless everyone collectively stops tipping, or the government intervenes nothing will change. And since the government won't make any progress the only thing consumers can do is withhold their tip."
This is what I'm taking issue with:
"And since the government won't make any progress the only thing consumers can do is withhold their tip."
I didn't make that comment. /u/Beaver117 did:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34523579
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34523579
Friedrich the Great in the latter years of his reign became careless with his dress. One day a visitor from Holland took him for a gardener and began asking about the various plantings. Friedrich gave him a complete tour. When he finished, the visitor attempted to tip him, but was turned down.
Well, the minimum wage is lower now than it was in 1950, but the cost of a one bedroom apartment is several times higher.
And so this is what you get. The business gets labor for almost free and the customers who are willing to tip support the powerless worker, who probably has tens of thousands of dollars of college debt.
And most of that tip money goes directly to the landlord. Meanwhile, the cost of education and health care continues to skyrocket. Makes you wonder whether unregulated capitalism is as amazing a system as it's made out to be. It's amazing for those at the top, I suppose.
Anyways, don't take it out on the worker. This country is a hellscape for most young people right now.
And most of that tip money goes directly to the landlord. Meanwhile, the cost of education and health care continues to skyrocket. Makes you wonder whether unregulated capitalism is as amazing a system as it's made out to be. It's amazing for those at the top, I suppose.
Anyways, don't take it out on the worker. This country is a hellscape for most young people right now.
Playing Devil’s Advocate here, but minimum wage earners are being subsidized by local, state, and federal governments. They usually don’t have to pay full price for groceries, rent, healthcare, or education. The bottom of the middle class are the ones suffering the most right now as they make just enough to not qualify for these subsidies, but not enough to comfortably absorb recent increases to their cost of living.
This is partly true, but I think that it’s hard to know who has it worse without looking at the lived experiences of people from both groups. I suspect you’re basing your ideas about the welfare state off how things were 30 years ago. Benefits have been cut everywhere.
> who probably has tens of thousands of dollars of college debt.
> Makes you wonder whether unregulated capitalism is as amazing a system as it's made out to be.
Huh? You're saying one can only get a minimum paid job with a college degree (plus lots of debt). Isn't that saying that the selection of the degree wasn't the wisest choice? i.e. ROI
Not sure I would put the blame solely only on the capitalist system for that.
Huh? You're saying one can only get a minimum paid job with a college degree (plus lots of debt). Isn't that saying that the selection of the degree wasn't the wisest choice? i.e. ROI
Not sure I would put the blame solely only on the capitalist system for that.
You mean my women’s studies degree with a minor in philosophy that cost the same as a STEM degree from a private college was a bad investment?
Responding to valid criticism with contempt is the mark of someone who knows they are wrong, but can’t admit it to themselves
Now I’m trying very hard not to start a flame war- but please, at least make an argument that isn’t just a straw man.
I said that many people working minimum or low wages have college debts; I did not say that “one can only get a minimum wage job with a college degree.” All beetles are insects but not all insects are beetles, you understand this right? I can’t imagine a more fatuous thing to say. Disgusting.
I said that many people working minimum or low wages have college debts; I did not say that “one can only get a minimum wage job with a college degree.” All beetles are insects but not all insects are beetles, you understand this right? I can’t imagine a more fatuous thing to say. Disgusting.
>I said that many people working minimum or low wages have college debts; I did not say that “one can only get a minimum wage job with a college degree.”
I was trying to be subtle and I thought it was obvious. It's (mostly) down to accountability and the choices that people make.
If you go into debt and choose to study "Stem/Law/Finance", you mostly won't be working in a minimal paying job.
If you go into debt and choose to study (I don't know) "French Art Literature", you might have problems getting by.
Is this 100% guarantee? Of course not, having Finance from Wharton and choosing to live in farmland state won't do you that much good. If you have a law degree from Harvard and choose to look after an ageing parent in SmallTown, US, you'll most likely have a hard time. Sometimes bad things happen to people.
However I don't believe the majority of graduates are in that position. I suspect they made bad decisions in choosing their major, maybe they partied too much and didn't get the grade they wanted.
Of course, you might have to move to a major city. If you don't that's a choice.
I don't understand why there is an expectation that if you spent a great deal of money to go to college and then don't have a valuable skill that you can sell to society, that everyone should give you a break.
I was trying to be subtle and I thought it was obvious. It's (mostly) down to accountability and the choices that people make.
If you go into debt and choose to study "Stem/Law/Finance", you mostly won't be working in a minimal paying job.
If you go into debt and choose to study (I don't know) "French Art Literature", you might have problems getting by.
Is this 100% guarantee? Of course not, having Finance from Wharton and choosing to live in farmland state won't do you that much good. If you have a law degree from Harvard and choose to look after an ageing parent in SmallTown, US, you'll most likely have a hard time. Sometimes bad things happen to people.
However I don't believe the majority of graduates are in that position. I suspect they made bad decisions in choosing their major, maybe they partied too much and didn't get the grade they wanted.
Of course, you might have to move to a major city. If you don't that's a choice.
I don't understand why there is an expectation that if you spent a great deal of money to go to college and then don't have a valuable skill that you can sell to society, that everyone should give you a break.
In my opinion, this is one of the places where the “true” inflation shows up. Akin to “shrinkflation”and other forms of covert inflation. Unfortunately, the Great Pretending seems to continue.
Do not tip when picking up. do not tip more than a buck or two at starbucks/coffee shops unless you're being served. Basically only tip for pizza, maid service, restaurants. I rarely tip above 20%, the standard is 15% for me for okay service. I've gone above 20% but it's only been for truly exceptional service or experience. I'm fine with the traditional spots, but I'm not going to expand it. F square for trying to make it standard everywhere.
/r/EndTipping has a list of restaurants in the US that do not allow tips.
With that list I was able to find one near me that publicly announced it would not accept tips anymore.
With that list I was able to find one near me that publicly announced it would not accept tips anymore.
I think the tip jars are a scam, but tipping waitstaff is important. However: Tip waitstaff with cash because their wage is much lower than most tip-jar situations.
Restaurants pay workers the minimum wage for tipped workers ($2.13/hour in most states), but must make up the difference if the worker's wage plus tips don't equal the minimum wage ($7.25 in most states).
When I waited tables, we were forced to turn out our pockets at the end of a shift and count out our tips in front of the boss. A lot of us took cash tips and stuffed them in our shoes beforehand.
Plus waitstaff had to pay for the credit card charge (2% at that time for MasterCard and Visa) if someone charged their meal, so reducing that as much as possible was helpful.
Restaurants pay workers the minimum wage for tipped workers ($2.13/hour in most states), but must make up the difference if the worker's wage plus tips don't equal the minimum wage ($7.25 in most states).
When I waited tables, we were forced to turn out our pockets at the end of a shift and count out our tips in front of the boss. A lot of us took cash tips and stuffed them in our shoes beforehand.
Plus waitstaff had to pay for the credit card charge (2% at that time for MasterCard and Visa) if someone charged their meal, so reducing that as much as possible was helpful.
No
[deleted]
Even my local covid test center had a tip jar until it closed.
I recently moved to the US. I hate tipping. At the same time I don't want to not tip when expected because I don't wanna become a pariah.
So, my approach is I don't go to places that expect tipping. If I go somewhere for the first time and I'm asked for a tip, I tip. And then I never go back there ever. Simple.
And I tell you what. If everyone did the same this is a problem that would solve itself.
So, my approach is I don't go to places that expect tipping. If I go somewhere for the first time and I'm asked for a tip, I tip. And then I never go back there ever. Simple.
And I tell you what. If everyone did the same this is a problem that would solve itself.
The Alberta minimum wage is $15 per hour. The prices went up as the minimum wage went up. A party is charged a flat 15% on the tab and everybody is fine with that.
Back in Toronto, it was reported that one owner was helping himself to a portion of the tips - a public shaming event.
Back in Toronto, it was reported that one owner was helping himself to a portion of the tips - a public shaming event.
Noooope
I just don't tip at any of those places that ask for a tip without providing a service, and enough other people do the same that neither I nor the cashier feel bad about it. I get to benefit from lower prices that these places can charge because other people are paying these tips and covering the business's fixed costs. I love it, and I think the practice of asking for a tip should spread to grocery stores and other places where I'm not getting a service anybody expects me to tip for.
> I get to benefit from lower prices that these places can charge
In theory. I have no illusions that other people tipping will lower my prices. The business owner will simply see an increase in revenue in most cases. In many cases, it would even be used as justification to pay their employees less unless they can bring in tips; this already happens at most restaurants.
I'd much rather hold the business owner to the expectation that they have a viable business strategy and pay their workers an appropriate amount while also charging their customers an appropriate amount.
In theory. I have no illusions that other people tipping will lower my prices. The business owner will simply see an increase in revenue in most cases. In many cases, it would even be used as justification to pay their employees less unless they can bring in tips; this already happens at most restaurants.
I'd much rather hold the business owner to the expectation that they have a viable business strategy and pay their workers an appropriate amount while also charging their customers an appropriate amount.
> The business owner will simply see an increase in revenue in most cases.
It's fundamentally a form of price discrimination. They can get more money from people who want to spend more, so they can lower their prices in order to capture more customers who want to spend less.
> I'd much rather hold the business owner to the expectation that they have a viable business strategy and pay their workers an appropriate amount
I don't know how you can hold the business owner to that, whether or not they collect non-service-related tips (aside from passing minimum wage laws). That's between the business owner and their employees, who also don't expect me to tip.
It's fundamentally a form of price discrimination. They can get more money from people who want to spend more, so they can lower their prices in order to capture more customers who want to spend less.
> I'd much rather hold the business owner to the expectation that they have a viable business strategy and pay their workers an appropriate amount
I don't know how you can hold the business owner to that, whether or not they collect non-service-related tips (aside from passing minimum wage laws). That's between the business owner and their employees, who also don't expect me to tip.
This is a shitty problem.
On one hand, tipping exists because restaurant workers are paid under minimum wage and that is still legal for some reason.
On the other hand, NOT tipping in protest directly harms the restaurant worker for a problem that's well beyond their control.
Personally I tip 50-100% because most times it goes 100% to the worker and I won't miss the money. Only exception is pooled tips since there have been stories of owners skimming from those pots and how the money is split up is complicated. There, I tip 20%.
On one hand, tipping exists because restaurant workers are paid under minimum wage and that is still legal for some reason.
On the other hand, NOT tipping in protest directly harms the restaurant worker for a problem that's well beyond their control.
Personally I tip 50-100% because most times it goes 100% to the worker and I won't miss the money. Only exception is pooled tips since there have been stories of owners skimming from those pots and how the money is split up is complicated. There, I tip 20%.
The question is making a pretty big assumption. Allow me to challenge the framing.
"Wait, are we supposed to eat at restaurants now?" - No.
"Wait, are we supposed to eat at restaurants now?" - No.
The amount of people that operate in this consumerist frame of mind though is certainly nonzero.
[deleted]
So anyone want to give me projection when will there be 100% tip expected? And then 200%?
TL;DR: people getting tips more than they like giving tips.
It's unbelievable to me how popular complaining about tipping is now, and probably all because a handful of POS systems that are quite common have an option to show default tip percentages. It's like we're running a social experiment about whether people would complain if daily presented with a "Would you like to slightly socially and financially inconvenience yourself? Y/N" screen. Turns out yes, thousands of words would be spilled on the topic.
Don't get me wrong, if you sell greeting cards or whatever and use a POS system that has a tip screen, I find that silly, and yeah, we should have a broader discussion about tipping culture. But all of this getting up in arms seems like solely an exercise in dropping coins into the outrage media machine. Just hit the other button.
Don't get me wrong, if you sell greeting cards or whatever and use a POS system that has a tip screen, I find that silly, and yeah, we should have a broader discussion about tipping culture. But all of this getting up in arms seems like solely an exercise in dropping coins into the outrage media machine. Just hit the other button.
To me it feels more like "How would you like to slightly inconvenience yourself?"
[ ] Socially [ ] Financially
Just advertise the price and I'll decide whether to buy or not. Then I'll pay you the price that you advertised. If you configure your POS terminal to make it awkward, I probably won't want to come back.
(Culture note: Not American)
[ ] Socially [ ] Financially
Just advertise the price and I'll decide whether to buy or not. Then I'll pay you the price that you advertised. If you configure your POS terminal to make it awkward, I probably won't want to come back.
(Culture note: Not American)
People are complaining because they are trying to make it commonplace for everything. Don't give in is what I tell my friends. The only way you create change is to make a bit of noise.
Sure, it's becoming commonplace. Does that stop people from voting with their fingers? What noise needs to be made to stop what? I'm really trying to understand. I think I am kind of starting to get it, I have been assuming people are just upset that there is a social pressure to tip. The fact that this pressure now takes place on a touchscreen is nothing new.
Employees are going to want their employer to have a 'give me more money' button at the end of every purchase, and this is just currently in vogue because of touchscreen point of sale systems. I have plenty of neurotic millennial tendencies, but I usually only see older generations complain about the tip screen. If I don't think I should tip for buying a candy bar then I won't. Is there a concern that all transactions will require something that will eventually become more than a tip, like some required fee? Is it so upsetting to be presented with the number 25%? Please help me understand.
Employees are going to want their employer to have a 'give me more money' button at the end of every purchase, and this is just currently in vogue because of touchscreen point of sale systems. I have plenty of neurotic millennial tendencies, but I usually only see older generations complain about the tip screen. If I don't think I should tip for buying a candy bar then I won't. Is there a concern that all transactions will require something that will eventually become more than a tip, like some required fee? Is it so upsetting to be presented with the number 25%? Please help me understand.
Are you okay with retail store workers asking you for a tip for pointing you to the right aisle? What about your doctor asking for a tip after a checkup? What about a relative that asks you for money every time they see you, and decides to "suggest" amounts? What about simple panhandling?
In all of those cases, you clearly have the ability to simply say no. At the same time, any socially aware person is likely to resent being pressured for money.
Your argument would make sense if tipping was something done for exceptional service. It makes less sense when it is essentially universal and implicitly risks worse service in the future at best. Even at restaurants, tipping disproportionately rewards the people who have arguably the least difficult job and does so in an empirically discriminatory way that has almost no relationship to service quality whatsoever (https://ecommons.cornell.edu/handle/1813/71781).
In all of those cases, you clearly have the ability to simply say no. At the same time, any socially aware person is likely to resent being pressured for money.
Your argument would make sense if tipping was something done for exceptional service. It makes less sense when it is essentially universal and implicitly risks worse service in the future at best. Even at restaurants, tipping disproportionately rewards the people who have arguably the least difficult job and does so in an empirically discriminatory way that has almost no relationship to service quality whatsoever (https://ecommons.cornell.edu/handle/1813/71781).
I find this to be a bit of a slippery slope argument (not to mention that I think tying panhandling to tipping to be a shaky comparison at best), but it is socially compelling, and is indeed an outcome that I do not want to come to pass, for many reasons. Thank you for providing something to help me understand the argument and concerns.
To "tip" my hand completely, I think my original comment was born out of a frustration that so many social problems will be complained about by a HN-type crowd as some vague social ill that cannot be solved by 'taking our (tipping) business elsewhere.' Sometimes it seems like these complaints only suggest that nothing can be done except 'make noise' about tipping or else it might become something our family members will do. As the author of the featured article points out, facing down the fact that many wait staff need tips to make a real living on top of minimum wage is definitely a big problem, but to me, it's a more concrete problem than 'I'm mad I have to tip because I bought chapstick.' There is a time and place for venting about the screwy society we live in but I hope we continue to talk about changing tipping culture and paying people properly.
To "tip" my hand completely, I think my original comment was born out of a frustration that so many social problems will be complained about by a HN-type crowd as some vague social ill that cannot be solved by 'taking our (tipping) business elsewhere.' Sometimes it seems like these complaints only suggest that nothing can be done except 'make noise' about tipping or else it might become something our family members will do. As the author of the featured article points out, facing down the fact that many wait staff need tips to make a real living on top of minimum wage is definitely a big problem, but to me, it's a more concrete problem than 'I'm mad I have to tip because I bought chapstick.' There is a time and place for venting about the screwy society we live in but I hope we continue to talk about changing tipping culture and paying people properly.
Some people have such easy lives that this is all they have to complain about. It’s as simple as that. They’ve never served food, they’ve never made minimum wage. They’re just out of touch with how most people live/survive.
I served tables and washed dishes and ran cash registers while getting my EE degree. When I was running a cash register, I didn't ask for a tip when I rung someone up for a coffee or twinkie. I did get tips as wait staff because that's been a tradition for 100+ years in the USA. Don't assume when someone says something that you don't like that they were born with a silver spoon in their mouth.
But please remember that the service worker you are considering tipping or not is not the one who put you in this situation and they are also getting a much worse deal out of it than you are. Not tipping will not matter at all to the person who controls the payroll but will matter to the person who relies on the tip as an important part of their income.
If you hate tipping, agitate for living pages. Don't just tut-tut at wait staff.