The Receptionist Test (The Interview before the Interview)(thedailywtf.com)
thedailywtf.com
The Receptionist Test (The Interview before the Interview)
http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/The-Receptionist-Test.aspx
44 comments
This style of programming interview is directly descendant from early microsoft. Some of the best minds in the business of making software engineering organizations cut their teeth on the topic (maybe microsoft isn't so stellar now, but how many organizations from that period are still making software that works at that scale?). Bill Gates pointed to the MS hiring strategy in particular as something that set them apart from their competitors.
However, there are lots of other fields that demand a certain level of competence for you to pursue them. Interviews at investment banks last all day, and they ask for pretty serious mathematics exams among other things. Lawyers must pass the BAR, which is fairly brutal. Actuaries must pass the actuarial exam. Musicians and dancers must audition. Aspiring professors must give a series of 'job talks', opening up their research and program to the criticisms of an entire faculty, after which they continue to meet one on one for hours at a time.
By contrast, the hours spent in Google interviews seem comparatively simple.
However, there are lots of other fields that demand a certain level of competence for you to pursue them. Interviews at investment banks last all day, and they ask for pretty serious mathematics exams among other things. Lawyers must pass the BAR, which is fairly brutal. Actuaries must pass the actuarial exam. Musicians and dancers must audition. Aspiring professors must give a series of 'job talks', opening up their research and program to the criticisms of an entire faculty, after which they continue to meet one on one for hours at a time.
By contrast, the hours spent in Google interviews seem comparatively simple.
My brother is a classical musician, and the preparation he puts in for an addition with a major symphony are brutal. it's like a Y-Combinator startup for each audition plus he continues to play his regular job and teach on the side.
The simple truth is, some fields are performance-oriented. Either he is the best Tuba player auditioning for the chair or he goes home with nothing for his efforts.
The simple truth is, some fields are performance-oriented. Either he is the best Tuba player auditioning for the chair or he goes home with nothing for his efforts.
It's because, like the sea, the computer is a wholly unforgiving bitch.
That's why I love computers.
As for the sea, people were just not made to be sea-faring. We just came up with really cool ways to get around this limitation... Stupid requirement of having to do things like breath air.
People weren't made to be computer programmers either ;-) Imagine seeing a bit of bad syntax and suffering involuntary convulsions....
Why does it seem like computer jobs require such a higher standard of competence than other jobs?
They don't. If you can reverse a string in place in C, or reverse the words in a string, you can get hired at 90% of programming jobs.
They don't. If you can reverse a string in place in C, or reverse the words in a string, you can get hired at 90% of programming jobs.
After spending years focusing on such specific skills, many developers fail to appreciate the skills necessary for other jobs.
It boggles my mind when developers seriously believe lawyers, graphic designers, chefs, etc. don't require a high "standard of competence" in their own skill sets, just because they aren't e.g. messing with pointers or refactoring.
It boggles my mind when developers seriously believe lawyers, graphic designers, chefs, etc. don't require a high "standard of competence" in their own skill sets, just because they aren't e.g. messing with pointers or refactoring.
FWIW, my personal experince...
I have interviewed over 2500 programmer applicants, all having passed a "resume screening". I terminated 50% of the interviews before reaching the coding test because I knew by then that it would be a waste of time. Of the other 50%, 90% couldn't pass the simple coding test. I ended up hiring or referring less than 100.
Anyone else have similar experience with these percentages?
I have interviewed over 2500 programmer applicants, all having passed a "resume screening". I terminated 50% of the interviews before reaching the coding test because I knew by then that it would be a waste of time. Of the other 50%, 90% couldn't pass the simple coding test. I ended up hiring or referring less than 100.
Anyone else have similar experience with these percentages?
I rather like Joel Spolsky's observation that when one is hiring one is not selecting from the population of programmers, but rather from the population of programmers without jobs. A very different prospect.
Not necessarily. Often the best candidates are the ones you have to tempt out of their current position.
My sample size is much smaller, (I quit a few months after I started getting involved with hiring at my last job) but they sound about right.
It's pretty amazing how easy it is to get a degree in compsci or game development and have no programming competence whatsoever. What amazed me too was the astounding quantity of terrible CVs, even among people who supposedly have a substantial amount of experience. I used to laugh at articles telling you to spell check your application and give other, seemingly extremely basic advice, but I swear about 80-90% of applications have glaring spelling, grammar and semantic mistakes and no discernible logical structure. Come on, how hard is it to assemble a chronological list of things you've done?
It's pretty amazing how easy it is to get a degree in compsci or game development and have no programming competence whatsoever. What amazed me too was the astounding quantity of terrible CVs, even among people who supposedly have a substantial amount of experience. I used to laugh at articles telling you to spell check your application and give other, seemingly extremely basic advice, but I swear about 80-90% of applications have glaring spelling, grammar and semantic mistakes and no discernible logical structure. Come on, how hard is it to assemble a chronological list of things you've done?
Sometimes those mistakes don't come from competency of the program writer but rather the translator...
"All your base are belong to us!"
"All your base are belong to us!"
Oh, don't worry - I wasn't complaining about immigrants. I'm talking about people who (according to their CV, and by the sound of their name) had spent all their life in the UK.
One thing you need to watch out for is recruiters "reformatting" people's CVs, possibly without their knowledge, into their "house style". One candidate I interviewed happened to bring an original copy of his CV with him, it was quite radically different to what I had in my hands.
Could it be good programmers are worse resume writers?
Perhaps if you had a different way of pre-screening candidates, something besides resumes.
Perhaps even if the pre-screening itself took much more time then scanning a resume - overall it might end up saving time?
Perhaps if you had a different way of pre-screening candidates, something besides resumes.
Perhaps even if the pre-screening itself took much more time then scanning a resume - overall it might end up saving time?
> Could it be good programmers are worse resume writers?
Judging by myself: FSCKING YES!!!
The only thing I hate more than resume writing is Java,
This freaking "resume screening" selects best resume writers, not best programmers.
Judging by myself: FSCKING YES!!!
The only thing I hate more than resume writing is Java,
This freaking "resume screening" selects best resume writers, not best programmers.
Oh come on - writing a resume is not that hard! Its two pages max, and while I agree its the most tedious undesirable task in the world, 3 or 4 hours spent on it will sort it once and for all. Then all you have to do is update it every 3 - 6 months for 30 minutes and it will always be ready to use.
Its basically just a bunch of buzz words on the skills you have, and a paragraph about your last few positions/roles.
Its basically just a bunch of buzz words on the skills you have, and a paragraph about your last few positions/roles.
I never call people in for interviews without a phone screening. It's a waste of their time and mine.
how bad is it that because i work in finance, i immediately assumed the "receptionist test" meant sitting with the receptionist for 5 minutes without sexually harrassing her or trying to hit on her. so sad haha.
This methodology is so simple that it is brilliant. My favorite one was the file extension problem... of course ubuntu would solve everything. No file, no problem! I am surprised he didn't tell the receptionist to roll on the floor saying hail linux while he did a witchdoctor dance. Now only if my office had a receptionist so we can do this.
As to why computer jobs require competence, it is because any engineering position (computer, or otherwise) requires competence. Would you live in a building without knowing that it won't collapse tomorrow because the construction company didn't know how to calculate the required strength of the steel beams needed to support the structure?
A company won't go under because a secretary does not know how to make perfectly formatted word files from the get-go. Where as it will fail if a software company's key product is managed/coded by incompetence.
As to why computer jobs require competence, it is because any engineering position (computer, or otherwise) requires competence. Would you live in a building without knowing that it won't collapse tomorrow because the construction company didn't know how to calculate the required strength of the steel beams needed to support the structure?
A company won't go under because a secretary does not know how to make perfectly formatted word files from the get-go. Where as it will fail if a software company's key product is managed/coded by incompetence.
Having worked as a EE, I can assure you that 99.9% of software is NOT engineered. It's not even close. Truth is, if you actually took the time to properly engineer software odds are your company would fail, because basically no one knows how to actually manage it. On top of that, people have grown to accept buggy software (unless it's an embedded system, and even that's eroding).
I have a lifetime bid for a fraternity (I didn't join, probably won't) as a result of a legitimate receptionist test. I was hanging out waiting for a friend and some senior member started cursing at his laptop. He had apparently lost an essay and I was able to rescue the contents, safely transfer it to disk, help him back it up just in case and give him advice on avoiding the problem in the future. Won me some points.
Great idea. I read about this one firm that would occasionally spill drinks on candidates to gage their character.
Also, I'm glad they didn't call this the "administrative assistant test".
Also, I'm glad they didn't call this the "administrative assistant test".
My cofounder once was interviewing someone. An earthquake struck in the midst of it. The candidate froze, bolted out the door, drove off, and was never heard from again.
My cofounder now says that he wish there were an earthquake for every interview...
My cofounder now says that he wish there were an earthquake for every interview...
stories like this piss me off when I'm unemployed.
does anyone use floppies anymore?
Receptionists do. ;)
I think the usage of floppy disks is a clear warning sign of a place you don't want to work.
I worked at my college unjamming printers for two years. The interview was pretty relaxed, they just made sure I could use Windows, Mac, and Linux (our school used all three).
Looking at the comments seems like I am an exception. But I really appreciate these tests especially if u are hiring at start-ups. One got to be hands on and ready to fix anything and everything.
The biggest test is that of go-getter and not be finicky about the kind of work you do.
The biggest test is that of go-getter and not be finicky about the kind of work you do.
And I always thought The Office was an exaggeration:
http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/Anything-You-Can-Do-Lyle-Can...
"High tech" version of Henry Ford's old test. He wouldn't hire anyone who put salt on his food before tasting it.
First time I've heard of it. Where I come from it's the other way around. Salting before tasting just means you generally like more salt than most and the host couldn't have predicted that. Salting afterwards is a (faux pas) critique.
Or wore a yarmaluke.
Seriously though, Ford's test sounds silly. I'm sure he had some kind of justification for it, but I doubt it really did a good job of screening out who would and wouldn't be a good employee.
Seriously though, Ford's test sounds silly. I'm sure he had some kind of justification for it, but I doubt it really did a good job of screening out who would and wouldn't be a good employee.
Dogma vs. Data!
Do you want to hire someone that does things 'because that's what they always do', or because they collected data and acted appropriately?
I'm not saying salt is a good indicator - there are a million other ways you could test it - but I think that's the gist of it.
Do you want to hire someone that does things 'because that's what they always do', or because they collected data and acted appropriately?
I'm not saying salt is a good indicator - there are a million other ways you could test it - but I think that's the gist of it.
The "salt test" is a popular and older than I am story\method, but why the name drop of Henry Ford? So far as I can tell, the evidence tying it to him is non-existent, just like all the other people\groups you hear it tied to. Regardless, why not let the method stand on it's own, and give up on the name dropping? Bah, rumors...
I think you could easily ask a few indirect IQ questions to see if the guy is suitable for the job.
Sounds like theoretical versus practical. In fact, the point of the story was that many candidates could easily handle all interview questions, IQ-centric or otherwise. This is a practical exam, of sorts. It will prove someone is unworthy of the position (but will not necessarily prove someone _is_ worthy of the position).
It's a weed-out class.
It's a weed-out class.
It is a clever test, albeit a bit deceptive.
Am I the only one who is offended (but slightly amused) by this test? I would never work for a place that would play games like this. Are they also going to send undercover employees to talk to you about the company over lunch break as your annual review?
What's wrong with presenting the problem in a straightforward manner and see if the applicant can debug the steps, telling the interviewer what he's trying and why at each step? For starters you'd get way more out of his think flow. For "authenticity" you can add that this was a real problem that Cindy faced the other day and you may ask her questions.
People tend to try what they know first (ie: pounding ctrl-p or ubuntu), and if it happened to be the issue, they were merely lucky and may not be competent at all either.
How hard is it to ask them "What else haven't you tried? What would you have tried next if this didn't fix it? Why did you try those steps in that order?"
What's wrong with presenting the problem in a straightforward manner and see if the applicant can debug the steps, telling the interviewer what he's trying and why at each step? For starters you'd get way more out of his think flow. For "authenticity" you can add that this was a real problem that Cindy faced the other day and you may ask her questions.
People tend to try what they know first (ie: pounding ctrl-p or ubuntu), and if it happened to be the issue, they were merely lucky and may not be competent at all either.
How hard is it to ask them "What else haven't you tried? What would you have tried next if this didn't fix it? Why did you try those steps in that order?"
Perhaps, but this does have the benefit of not making the interviewees feel pressured.
Is it that there are lots of people who lie and say they're computer people when they aren't (compared to the rates in other occupations)? Is it because you can't fake computers like you can fake other jobs? Is it because computer people are used to being mistreated and undervalued in a way that is unacceptable for other people? I'm really curious if anyone has thoughts on this.