Sii Poland CEO insults and fires employee who forms a union(za.org.pl)
za.org.pl
Sii Poland CEO insults and fires employee who forms a union
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9 comments
> This kind of toxic condescension by (some) bosses and ruling/employing classes, is exactly why workers need unions.
Tell that to all the New Yorkers who can't enjoy a modern, efficient transportation because expansion is just too expensive and slow. Or good law enforcement, for that matter, too. Plenty of good journalistic pieces digging deep into it and the conclusion is one: corrupted, power-tripping unions. Example: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/nyregion/new-york-subway-...
I am not against unions nor regulation, but they can drain the employer and stagnate growth very quickly. It doesn't have to automatically be greedy CEO's "toxic condescension", it can have merit.
Tell that to all the New Yorkers who can't enjoy a modern, efficient transportation because expansion is just too expensive and slow. Or good law enforcement, for that matter, too. Plenty of good journalistic pieces digging deep into it and the conclusion is one: corrupted, power-tripping unions. Example: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/nyregion/new-york-subway-...
I am not against unions nor regulation, but they can drain the employer and stagnate growth very quickly. It doesn't have to automatically be greedy CEO's "toxic condescension", it can have merit.
If the Qatari construction workers had been unionized, the World Cup stadiums would have been even more expensive to build.
But 6000+ of them would still be alive.
The tradeoff you're condemning is literally people's lives for a few dollars of savings.
But 6000+ of them would still be alive.
The tradeoff you're condemning is literally people's lives for a few dollars of savings.
These are two extremities laid out, mine and yours. Finding a common ground does not have to be impossible.
There should be a rule like: if you work for a private company, you can have a union, but if you work for a government, you cannot have a union. Maybe adjust the details as necessary, but the idea is that there should be no police unions etc.
The reason is that when a union in a private company goes too far, that company can be replaced by a competitor. But if you cannot similarly replace a police force, nothing prevents a police union from going too far.
The reason is that when a union in a private company goes too far, that company can be replaced by a competitor. But if you cannot similarly replace a police force, nothing prevents a police union from going too far.
from the inside of various companies in France, unions only seem to protect free-loading employees (as longs as they were members of that union, ofc). Outside, I've seen union organize protests and strikes, some that seemed justified, some that were dubious or frankly BS. So I can relate with the desire to leave for a country where unions seem less like a drain on productivity.
By that logic, the First Amendment only seems to protect pornographers and racists.
That doesn't seem that damning of evidence against unions. The same unions that protect the 'free-loading employees' also protect all the other employees that are members of that union.
There are certainly problematic unions, but we should be equitable to the benefits that they provide.
There are certainly problematic unions, but we should be equitable to the benefits that they provide.
You couldn't sack this person in the US for engaging in protected converted activity.
Perhaps on paper, but we shall see if large companies like Starbucks and Amazon face any substantive results for firing people for their union organizing activity.
No, you'd fire them for being late, not doing everything to the letter of company policy, or any one of a thousand other reasons that aren't protected. Good luck proving it later as well, unless for some reason you have money you want to burn on a lawsuit.
It's goes both ways. There are psychopathic employers/managers and there are psychopathic employees and your average skaters. Skaters aren't always bad and they are part of society and you can't avoid them --but having key ones can rot an entire team.
I got dismissed too, in the Netherlands. Way to easy.
Depends on your point of view. When you're starting a new company you can't afford to have some employee call in sick and having to pay them for an x amount of months/years. Your company would simply fail and you'd be bankrupted.
OTOH I do agree that unions are much needed in a capitalistic society where only the ones with rare sought-after skills reap the rewards and the bulk are fighting over scraps.
OTOH I do agree that unions are much needed in a capitalistic society where only the ones with rare sought-after skills reap the rewards and the bulk are fighting over scraps.
>The writer of this email says they left France because of "too high work protection," and that they would rather "invest in more liberal & open-minded countries where we can easily dismiss bad performers & trouble makers who kill their employers & the entire company."
>Basically, they're aiming for the equivalent of at-will employment in the US, where you can be dismissed for more or less any reason
Up to this point I thought that you were defending at-will employment :')
>Basically, they're aiming for the equivalent of at-will employment in the US, where you can be dismissed for more or less any reason
Up to this point I thought that you were defending at-will employment :')
Unions can help companies identify and resolve employee problems so that conflicts do not reach this stage. It is an unfortunate failing that so many managers are so intent on power and control and minimizing costs that they fail to see unions as anything other than a threat when they could actually be extremely helpful.
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"With over 7 500 experts, we're the Top IT, engineering, digital & BPO services vendor in Poland" https://sii.pl/en/
I thought European countries already had strong labour laws which reduces the need for a union? Is that not really the case or is Poland different?
Yes, you have holidays, paid medical insurance, paid gym, 1 month notice period both ways etc. No one will put extra hours on him etc.
In this sense the CEO is right, this guy is a troublemaker. He just joined an outsourcing company, a "bodyshop". It's just putting your energy into something perpendicular to where he has to. As CEO mentions, there are ways to escalate many things, and in Polish culture escalating and raising questions slowly is expected. There was practically nothing for him to gain, so it is perceived as something inappropriate.
Even though it's a perfectly legal thing to do, of course. And he's fired "bez zachowania okresu wypowiedzenia", so without a paid extra month, that's a bullish part from the employer, if the guy didn't sign the document, he probably is going to sue.
In this sense the CEO is right, this guy is a troublemaker. He just joined an outsourcing company, a "bodyshop". It's just putting your energy into something perpendicular to where he has to. As CEO mentions, there are ways to escalate many things, and in Polish culture escalating and raising questions slowly is expected. There was practically nothing for him to gain, so it is perceived as something inappropriate.
Even though it's a perfectly legal thing to do, of course. And he's fired "bez zachowania okresu wypowiedzenia", so without a paid extra month, that's a bullish part from the employer, if the guy didn't sign the document, he probably is going to sue.
We have strong labour laws because of unions
It's complicated, and depends on the country and industry.
In Poland there's a strong labor law, but there are also "escape hatches" like working on a B2B contract (you create a 1-person company and provide services to your employer - in reality you work just the same as before but you pay less taxes and have only the safety net you negotiate for yourself - usually much less than on a regular contract). It's very common for people earning more than ~15 000 PLN per month cause taxes are much lower then, and the market is so good that abuse isn't likely anyway (people can always just switch jobs if they dislike something).
Even on B2B you still get free healthcare, free education for your kids up to the university level, state retirement, etc. But you probably pay minimal possible retirement and healthcare taxes (that's the point of working on B2B) - so you will get minimal possible retirement and your sick days will be paid as if you worked on minimal salary even if you earn 5 times that when you're not sick.
Despite no safety net and little regulation - it's still very common to take long vacations, sick days, maternity leave etc on B2B - simply because it's the norm in the society. People just take a hit (you earn more so you can afford it).
I've never heard about people creating trade unions in IT in Poland, it's like a setup for a joke. Why bother when you get 10 better offers on LinkedIn every month - just change the job. But I guess if you work on a regular contract and want to for ideological reasons or whatever - you should be able to start a trade union, so this particular employer will get f**d in the court.
BTW for other industries the situation is much less rosy - in some cases people were pressured into working a B2B contract (or else we won't hire you) with low salaries (~3000 PLN per month) and then it just sucks with no upside. But I don't think it's that common, big companies usually don't bother cause it risks problems with law.
In Poland there's a strong labor law, but there are also "escape hatches" like working on a B2B contract (you create a 1-person company and provide services to your employer - in reality you work just the same as before but you pay less taxes and have only the safety net you negotiate for yourself - usually much less than on a regular contract). It's very common for people earning more than ~15 000 PLN per month cause taxes are much lower then, and the market is so good that abuse isn't likely anyway (people can always just switch jobs if they dislike something).
Even on B2B you still get free healthcare, free education for your kids up to the university level, state retirement, etc. But you probably pay minimal possible retirement and healthcare taxes (that's the point of working on B2B) - so you will get minimal possible retirement and your sick days will be paid as if you worked on minimal salary even if you earn 5 times that when you're not sick.
Despite no safety net and little regulation - it's still very common to take long vacations, sick days, maternity leave etc on B2B - simply because it's the norm in the society. People just take a hit (you earn more so you can afford it).
I've never heard about people creating trade unions in IT in Poland, it's like a setup for a joke. Why bother when you get 10 better offers on LinkedIn every month - just change the job. But I guess if you work on a regular contract and want to for ideological reasons or whatever - you should be able to start a trade union, so this particular employer will get f**d in the court.
BTW for other industries the situation is much less rosy - in some cases people were pressured into working a B2B contract (or else we won't hire you) with low salaries (~3000 PLN per month) and then it just sucks with no upside. But I don't think it's that common, big companies usually don't bother cause it risks problems with law.
I'd agree that this mentality of "we don't need a trade union as IT workers" is pretty widespread, and it's not only a Polish thing - I've moved to Germany a long time ago and witnessed a works council being formed in the company I've been working for at the time. That company had a large IT department, but it was not an IT company per se and the basic workforce did unskilled labor. These were the people who initiated the process; some non-IT office staff joined the union, but I haven't heard of anyone working in IT who would take part in organizing a trade union. And this was in a country with presumably the strongest worker protection/union laws in the world.
The other thing the CEO mentioned in the email was mining industry unions - this is the prevalent view on unions in the eyes of non-unionized workforce in the country. This might be propaganda, but ask a Polish person what do they think of the coal miners and you will hear some expletives. It's common knowledge that the coal industry has long been unsustainable and the only reason it's being kept up is to gain some votes from that part of workforce.
An additional thing to know here is that the largest trade union is Solidarity, the direct successor to the original Solidarity trade union turned political movement which was the dominant force driving the democratic changes in the 80s. The movement is very politicized and heavily leans national-conservative (e.g. the official union newspaper basically reprints unfounded news and conspiracy theories), which further deepens societal divisions on the topic.
The other thing the CEO mentioned in the email was mining industry unions - this is the prevalent view on unions in the eyes of non-unionized workforce in the country. This might be propaganda, but ask a Polish person what do they think of the coal miners and you will hear some expletives. It's common knowledge that the coal industry has long been unsustainable and the only reason it's being kept up is to gain some votes from that part of workforce.
An additional thing to know here is that the largest trade union is Solidarity, the direct successor to the original Solidarity trade union turned political movement which was the dominant force driving the democratic changes in the 80s. The movement is very politicized and heavily leans national-conservative (e.g. the official union newspaper basically reprints unfounded news and conspiracy theories), which further deepens societal divisions on the topic.
I never worked in Sii, but my first company was kind of similar. The biggest problem I've encountered, was basically getting paid around 3k PLN as Junior Dev while being outsourced for something like 15k PLN as Regular Dev to US/EU companies. Middleman took more than 70% of the money for themselves. The longer you stayed in the company, the more you knew how it works, so folks with 5+ years in were actually getting more fair salary, I'd say middleman (like Sii) in their case took around 10-20%, which is quite resonable.
I have the feeling that a union this guy formed aimed to cut down the fee for any new joiners or people not aware how much they were being ripped off.
I have the feeling that a union this guy formed aimed to cut down the fee for any new joiners or people not aware how much they were being ripped off.
That's pretty much how consulting works. Your revenue pays for all costs of the firm - the non billable staff, equipment, facilities, marketing and sales etc. Margin on junior staff is a huge driver of overall revenue, whereas senior staff are expensive so that they aren't marked up much
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Capitalists and the ruling class will always find workarounds to exploit workers, regardless of labour laws -- whether this is in how you're contracted to work, loopholes in employment contracts, or whatever else.
Additionally, those labour laws only exist because of unions.
If anyone is reading this and isn't in a union, consider changing that. They exist for the protection and benefit of workers, your bosses don't.
Additionally, those labour laws only exist because of unions.
If anyone is reading this and isn't in a union, consider changing that. They exist for the protection and benefit of workers, your bosses don't.
>They [unions] exist for the protection and benefit of workers, your bosses don't.
I concur, and will go further: They [unions] _usually_ exist for the protection and benefit of workers, however, it depends on the union, whether there's a 'closed shop' agreement (only one union is allowed in the company), the quality and honesty and integrity of local reps, and how many shady deals have been done over the years, and how many cover-ups have taken place to hide the shady deals over the years (and so on and so on), your bosses _don't_ exist for the protection and benefit of [the] workers, unless it significantly benefits them more.
I concur, and will go further: They [unions] _usually_ exist for the protection and benefit of workers, however, it depends on the union, whether there's a 'closed shop' agreement (only one union is allowed in the company), the quality and honesty and integrity of local reps, and how many shady deals have been done over the years, and how many cover-ups have taken place to hide the shady deals over the years (and so on and so on), your bosses _don't_ exist for the protection and benefit of [the] workers, unless it significantly benefits them more.
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How is that legal? Or is Poland a lawless nation?
Here comes the sad irony -- it was labor union Solidarity [0] that freed Poland from communism 30 years ago. Now one is terminated for forming a union.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solidarity_(Polish_trade_union...
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solidarity_(Polish_trade_union...
That same union turned into the populist autocrats that are destroying the country.
That being said, it's just Solidarity that are Catholic Church / Law and Justice bootlickers. I have nothing against unions.
That being said, it's just Solidarity that are Catholic Church / Law and Justice bootlickers. I have nothing against unions.
Basically, they're aiming for the equivalent of at-will employment in the US, where you can be dismissed for more or less any reason, as long as it's not because of a protected characteristic -- but again, bosses like this will always find ways around that anyway.
This kind of toxic condescension by (some) bosses and ruling/employing classes, is exactly why workers need unions. Solidarity and collective bargaining go a long way to stopping small powerful people from overreaching and exploiting workers.