Bosch eBike Systems presents its new eBike ABS(bosch-presse.de)
bosch-presse.de
Bosch eBike Systems presents its new eBike ABS
https://www.bosch-presse.de/pressportal/de/en/bosch-ebike-systems-presents-its-new-ebike-abs-243264.html
9 comments
> An ebike is really a light motorcycle,
I understand why you say that, but no no no. A motorcycle is 200kg+, capable of 150+km/h, and really needs proper training (Unlike as in the US, where it seems being able to steer it is sufficient to get your licence).
E-Bikes should need a proper licence, very very different from motorcycles. Both are very dangerous, but in different ways.
In Europe we have <50cc licences, where you still need to learn a dumded down version of the road code, and that's not even enough to my taste.
(Almost lost my life, with proper motorcycle training, full equipement, in Paris, just getting to confident).
Please do not take motorized 2 wheels lightly, an e-bike can kill you very easily.
I understand why you say that, but no no no. A motorcycle is 200kg+, capable of 150+km/h, and really needs proper training (Unlike as in the US, where it seems being able to steer it is sufficient to get your licence).
E-Bikes should need a proper licence, very very different from motorcycles. Both are very dangerous, but in different ways.
In Europe we have <50cc licences, where you still need to learn a dumded down version of the road code, and that's not even enough to my taste.
(Almost lost my life, with proper motorcycle training, full equipement, in Paris, just getting to confident).
Please do not take motorized 2 wheels lightly, an e-bike can kill you very easily.
(Speaking about EU here...)
E-bikes has a maximum speed is 25 km/h, and from the few studies done on the subject there doesn't seem to be any increase risk from e-bikes compared to regular bikes. One significant data point is that the average speed of e-bikes has been observed to be similar as of regular bikes with two exceptions: up hill has a higher speed than regular bikes and long flat stretches has more even speed. Most accidents involving bikes and e-bikes alike occur at very slow or even still speed, with the rider falling off and landing badly.
There are two factors however that those studies have found. More disabled people use e-bikes, and when they end up in accidents they tend have worse injuries. E-bike users also tend to use their bikes more often and thus have more accidents with their bikes than people who ride their bikes less (looking at accidents per person rather than accident per mile).
Going based on accident rates, any license that e-bikes should have should also apply to bikes, e-scooters and likely also people who jog in cities. There is simply no data that support a law treating e-bikes as different from regular bikes, as long they are limited to 25 km/h. A motorcycle weighting 200kg+ and operating over 150+km/h is however a very different beast which the accident rates also demonstrate, which is why they need a proper license to operate safely among other human being.
E-bikes has a maximum speed is 25 km/h, and from the few studies done on the subject there doesn't seem to be any increase risk from e-bikes compared to regular bikes. One significant data point is that the average speed of e-bikes has been observed to be similar as of regular bikes with two exceptions: up hill has a higher speed than regular bikes and long flat stretches has more even speed. Most accidents involving bikes and e-bikes alike occur at very slow or even still speed, with the rider falling off and landing badly.
There are two factors however that those studies have found. More disabled people use e-bikes, and when they end up in accidents they tend have worse injuries. E-bike users also tend to use their bikes more often and thus have more accidents with their bikes than people who ride their bikes less (looking at accidents per person rather than accident per mile).
Going based on accident rates, any license that e-bikes should have should also apply to bikes, e-scooters and likely also people who jog in cities. There is simply no data that support a law treating e-bikes as different from regular bikes, as long they are limited to 25 km/h. A motorcycle weighting 200kg+ and operating over 150+km/h is however a very different beast which the accident rates also demonstrate, which is why they need a proper license to operate safely among other human being.
In the former EU country of UK this is totally abused. I believe a vehicle can be capable of exceeding these limits, so long as they are enabled while on roads. So you can have a powerful ebike so long as there is a switch that makes it less powerful, and you switch it on while riding eg on a bike path.
Lots of people seem to ride with it disabled though, confident that if the police catch them, they just push the switch and pretend it was on.
This stems, AFAICT, from mobility scooters for the disabled. On pavements they have to be limited to 4mph for pedestrian safety, but on roads it is probably in fact safer to ride faster, which they do. Hence a flippable speed limiter.
Lots of people seem to ride with it disabled though, confident that if the police catch them, they just push the switch and pretend it was on.
This stems, AFAICT, from mobility scooters for the disabled. On pavements they have to be limited to 4mph for pedestrian safety, but on roads it is probably in fact safer to ride faster, which they do. Hence a flippable speed limiter.
Cars are so much worse in this regard. Most cars can easily go twice as fast as you would ever legally be able to drive on the street. You don’t even need a switch to go 100mph!
The problem is, of course, enforcement. If there is truly a speeding and safety problem with ebikes, then the existing laws around bikes, ebikes, and speed limits can be enforced to solve it. Most consumer-ready e-bikes are already speed limited. For example, many won’t do any motor assistance past 20mph. (E.g. a class 1 ebike)
The problem is, of course, enforcement. If there is truly a speeding and safety problem with ebikes, then the existing laws around bikes, ebikes, and speed limits can be enforced to solve it. Most consumer-ready e-bikes are already speed limited. For example, many won’t do any motor assistance past 20mph. (E.g. a class 1 ebike)
I mostly agree, except in many cases (not all) cars abuse a different space than that operated by regular cyclists and pedestrians. Eg I won't have a car going fast down the pavement and hitting my elderly mother, not usually anyway. With these ebikes in the UK, they go anywhere they can fit.
Different menace I'd argue.
Different menace I'd argue.
The fear that bikes might hit a disabled person on the pavement is an interesting case. I often see parents walking with a stroller on bike lanes (nice and flat, and often clear of snow), so many times in fact that I look up if there were any statistics on bikes hitting one and killing the helpless baby inside. I also don't see other pedestrians reacting to the situation as if the parents were putting the child in mortal danger.
However, try as I might I could not find a single case of infant being killed by a bike in my country. The only explanation I have is that thanks to the slow speed, bikers and e-bikers alike have time to slow down if there are a risk of a collision. It would be interesting to see UK statistics and hear if the same is true with elderly mothers?
However, try as I might I could not find a single case of infant being killed by a bike in my country. The only explanation I have is that thanks to the slow speed, bikers and e-bikers alike have time to slow down if there are a risk of a collision. It would be interesting to see UK statistics and hear if the same is true with elderly mothers?
I have personally been almost hit by an e-bike delivery driver riding on the pavement while looking at his phone. Same for going down bike paths the wrong way, or going through a red light.
In neither of these cases did we actually hit each other because I was alert. If I happened to be wearing headphones and deep in thought (arguably not best course of action on a pavement in a city but not wrong either), I'd be badly hurt.
I guess most people are alert enough to avoid the e-bikers, so accidents don't happen much, but they are still a menace (in my locale at least).
I have nothing against e-bikes as such, I own one in fact and it's a good piece of kit. I just think that as power goes up, enforcement should keep up.
In neither of these cases did we actually hit each other because I was alert. If I happened to be wearing headphones and deep in thought (arguably not best course of action on a pavement in a city but not wrong either), I'd be badly hurt.
I guess most people are alert enough to avoid the e-bikers, so accidents don't happen much, but they are still a menace (in my locale at least).
I have nothing against e-bikes as such, I own one in fact and it's a good piece of kit. I just think that as power goes up, enforcement should keep up.
I haven't ever seen a switch on a e-bike. In Sweden you would need a license plate if the vehicle is capable of exceeding the limit of 25 km/h, and operating such vehicle at any speed requires a driver license.
What we got that serve a similar purpose is 4 wheel "e-bikes", also called quadricycle. Basically cars that has their gearbox altered to only use gear 1 and 2, which by eu-classification put them in the same category as e-scooters. Very popular with teens since it allows them to drive without a driving license, and very accident prone. Looking at the statistics, those should require a license to operate.
What we got that serve a similar purpose is 4 wheel "e-bikes", also called quadricycle. Basically cars that has their gearbox altered to only use gear 1 and 2, which by eu-classification put them in the same category as e-scooters. Very popular with teens since it allows them to drive without a driving license, and very accident prone. Looking at the statistics, those should require a license to operate.
To add to this: the Bosch systems can be set to a lower or higher limit but it needs to be taken to a Bosch dealer to do this. They don't give the software to any old Joe Schmoe (I tried)
Unless someone throws something on github of course ;)
Unless someone throws something on github of course ;)
Nitpick: that's a maximum of 25 km/h for assisted mode, if you're going a steep downhill you will obviously go higher than that.
Well yes, and so do regular bikes. It not uncommon to see bikes pass e-bikes downhill on some roads, and then have the e-bike pass the bike uphill. I also suspect (but got no numbers to support this) that e-bikes tend to be designed more often where the rider sits upright which has maximum air resistance, compared to many faster city bikes where the rider is leaning forward. Air resistance is a big thing if you want to go fast on a bike. A common argument in favor of e-bikes that I see is that they allow for upright ridding because the engine take cares of the increase air resistance.
> (Unlike as in the US, where it seems being able to steer it is sufficient to get your licence).
Source? I will gladly agree that standards should be greatly increased in the US for operating both four-wheeled and two-wheeled vehicles, and I much prefer driving in western European countries partly as a result, but this is an exaggeration that doesn't apply to the states I've lived in.
Source? I will gladly agree that standards should be greatly increased in the US for operating both four-wheeled and two-wheeled vehicles, and I much prefer driving in western European countries partly as a result, but this is an exaggeration that doesn't apply to the states I've lived in.
In several states, I think you just have to take a written test to get your Motorcycle license.
Could definitely have missed one but skimming this list it seems like Alabama is the only one.
https://www.cardosystems.com/blog/how-to-get-a-motorcycle-li...
Looks like others that allow skipping the skills test seem to only allow it if you've completely a separate safety course (no idea how comprehensive those safety courses or skill tests are).
https://www.cardosystems.com/blog/how-to-get-a-motorcycle-li...
Looks like others that allow skipping the skills test seem to only allow it if you've completely a separate safety course (no idea how comprehensive those safety courses or skill tests are).
Most states use the MSF Basic course for drivers with a normal drivers license who want to add a motorcycle endorsement. It's 10 hours classroom, 10 hours riding, so effectively a three day course though it's split up various ways.
MSF instructors can and will fail students. New motorcycle riders are usually experienced drivers, and the exceptions are almost always kids who've been riding dirt bikes for years.
MSF instructors can and will fail students. New motorcycle riders are usually experienced drivers, and the exceptions are almost always kids who've been riding dirt bikes for years.
Roads in the USA are much easier to ride motorbikes on than in Europe.
And riders ride their bikes as if they were cars. Lane splitting is not legal in many places. You can’t park as easily etc and there was far less commuting in the cities I lived in. Europe city motorcycling is more akin to cycling, a lot more assertive, more utility than leisure. Europe motorcycling in general needs great bikes and riders, which they have. Paris is great fun, but like anywhere one needs to be like a local. London is much worse. The worst anywhere is São Paulo, Brazil.
Ebikes and escooter with too much speed/power are generally regulated as motor scooters or motorbikes in many places. But is it policed? The Euro approach to limit ebike power and speed seems to work well. Bosch kit is amazing.
And riders ride their bikes as if they were cars. Lane splitting is not legal in many places. You can’t park as easily etc and there was far less commuting in the cities I lived in. Europe city motorcycling is more akin to cycling, a lot more assertive, more utility than leisure. Europe motorcycling in general needs great bikes and riders, which they have. Paris is great fun, but like anywhere one needs to be like a local. London is much worse. The worst anywhere is São Paulo, Brazil.
Ebikes and escooter with too much speed/power are generally regulated as motor scooters or motorbikes in many places. But is it policed? The Euro approach to limit ebike power and speed seems to work well. Bosch kit is amazing.
>Please do not take motorized 2 wheels lightly, an e-bike can kill you very easily.
So can a conventional bicycle. Roller skates and pogo sticks can too.
So can a conventional bicycle. Roller skates and pogo sticks can too.
>E-Bikes should need a proper licence,
I wish people would stop advocating for the absolute bottom of the barrel technical competency wise people in places of political power to pass some sort of regulation on technology.
In a perfect world, lots of correctly done, statistically based regulation would be a good thing, but in the world we live in, the less regulation, the better.
I wish people would stop advocating for the absolute bottom of the barrel technical competency wise people in places of political power to pass some sort of regulation on technology.
In a perfect world, lots of correctly done, statistically based regulation would be a good thing, but in the world we live in, the less regulation, the better.
That's true, and i suppose safety is good.
Equally, I'm dismayed at people with no road awareness and, seemingly, concern for their own and others safety, bring given these "light motorcycles" and riding them as if they are bikes... On pavements, on roads down the wrong way, through red lights and parks.
People aren't any smarter on purely mechanical bikes but there is a higher bar to being dangerous.
Equally, I'm dismayed at people with no road awareness and, seemingly, concern for their own and others safety, bring given these "light motorcycles" and riding them as if they are bikes... On pavements, on roads down the wrong way, through red lights and parks.
People aren't any smarter on purely mechanical bikes but there is a higher bar to being dangerous.
E-bikes are illegal in Toronto, yet they are everywhere because the police rarely enforce the rule.
This is so patently false it hurts to read. The city has an easy website explaining the rules[0], and the bike share system provides ebikes[1].
[0]: https://www.toronto.ca/services-payments/streets-parking-tra...
[1]: https://bikesharetoronto.com/e-bikes/
[0]: https://www.toronto.ca/services-payments/streets-parking-tra...
[1]: https://bikesharetoronto.com/e-bikes/
I meant e-scooters. I guess I conflated them all together.
E-bike is a whole category, from bikes that offer pedal assist only and don't see speeds that are really higher than normal bikes, just offering higher speed for lower human effort all the way up to e-bikes that are like you said just light motorcycle.
But regulation and safety needs vary widely depending on category.
This is an e-bike: https://ride1up.com/product/roadster-v2/
So is this: https://www.eskuta.com/products/sx-250-series-iii-eapc-elect... (at least it's being marketed as one).
Really, we just need more terms. But it'd be nice if we could keep the label e-bike for the...bikes. Not the light motos.
But regulation and safety needs vary widely depending on category.
This is an e-bike: https://ride1up.com/product/roadster-v2/
So is this: https://www.eskuta.com/products/sx-250-series-iii-eapc-elect... (at least it's being marketed as one).
Really, we just need more terms. But it'd be nice if we could keep the label e-bike for the...bikes. Not the light motos.
There are definitely regulations for full-assist ebikes, which is why pedal-assist ebikes top out at 20mph and cannot go more than 5mph on its own power. Check with your local state laws
Regulating ebikes like motorcycles is a great way to make them just as popular for regular commuting as motorcycles (which is to say, basically not at all except for enthusiasts). This is exactly what many states have intentionally and successfully done to mopeds so it's not like you can say I'm speculating.
From the pictures the system looks small enough it could be set on a standard cross-bike as well. If it really improves braking, that could be welcome addition to any situation where a bit more weight is acceptable.
Well, yes...
Except for just the Harley motor weighing more than an average person and the e-bike combined.
So no, not really.
Except for just the Harley motor weighing more than an average person and the e-bike combined.
So no, not really.
On one hand, braking hard on a bicycle often ends up in blocking the wheel and the biker falling down.
On the other hand, I really don't want to go to a specialized Bosch shop to get my brakes serviced.
On the other hand, I really don't want to go to a specialized Bosch shop to get my brakes serviced.
Do you also take your car to a Bosch shop?
To fully service a motorcycle brake fluid? You sometimes need to. On KTM motorcycles you need a scantool that dealers have to command the ABS to cycle the fluid from the ABS unit into the brake lines so that they can be flushed properly, and KTM uses Bosch ABS units at least on the RC390.
No idea how important a full flush is on this MAGURA system and this ABS unit.
No idea how important a full flush is on this MAGURA system and this ABS unit.
Are there bike shops paying more than $25/hr yet?
https://www.bicycleretailer.com/classifieds/retail-positions...
https://www.bicycleretailer.com/classifieds/retail-positions...
For general maintenance? Doubtful. To the person making carbon fiber frames? Have you seen how much those things cost?
I'd be shocked if more than 20% of carbon fiber frames sold in Europe were made in Europe or if more than 1% of carbon fiber frames sold in Europe had an a average labour cost of above $25/€25 per hour. The design, testing, material and tooling is expensive but for mass production the labour cost per unit is not anymore.
You have never been on a bike, it seems.
You don't have to go to a "specialized Bosch shop" for the same reason you don't have to go to a "specialized Shimano shop".
You don't have to go to a "specialized Bosch shop" for the same reason you don't have to go to a "specialized Shimano shop".
> You have never been on a bike, it seems.
I have a Kalkhoff endeavor (it has a Bosch motor).
I have to take my bike to the bosch shop to get the firmware updated on the battery, the motor and the computer.
Maybe I'm wrong but I doubt that an ABS system will be as easy to maintain as a regular brake.
I have a Kalkhoff endeavor (it has a Bosch motor).
I have to take my bike to the bosch shop to get the firmware updated on the battery, the motor and the computer.
Maybe I'm wrong but I doubt that an ABS system will be as easy to maintain as a regular brake.
Missed opportunity
https://www.specializedconceptstore.co.uk/find-a-store/
https://www.specializedconceptstore.co.uk/find-a-store/
Maybe in fat tyres e-bikes with heavy weight, or cargo bikes, having ABS is reasonable or even necessary, but I don't find that on a common MTB e-bike, for example. I hope they are more consumer-friendly than current car and motorcycle modules BTW.
https://www.crescent.se/cyklar/elcykel/ellie-7-vxl-abs-3213.... Crescent also sells eBike with ABS. Their Koppla Connect series also have GPS and mobile connectivity so you can always track where your bike is, get notification to your phone when your bike starts moving, can remotely disable the motor and set up geofences. Not affiliated with Creacent, but i do commute using my Crescent Elton every day.
I have a Crescent Elder and without assistance on max it feels like I cycle on wet sand with flat tires. I think I'll get an Ecoride next time. Old ladies wosh past me uphill and they put zero effort into pedaling while I have to use a slightly lower gear and pedal faster.
Interesting. My bike seems to have more torque than most ebikes, top speed of course is the same. What mode do you have on? It's indicated in the top right corner of the display https://photos.app.goo.gl/14c5ceRr2zNrdKj17 D on my bike.
In this euro centric conversation the max speed for an ebike in most of north america is 32kph (20mph). This is a decent compromise of speed and safety.
I find E-Bike laws in general very odd, most countries treat them as more dangerous vehicles, even though they're limited to the same speed that most people regularly go on a pedal bicycle.
It appears people have strong opinions. Possibly those who do not even ride ebikes?
I got modded down for talking about the modchip option below to remove the speed limiter. Quite funny on a site called "hacker" news.
Regardless, the speed limiter on some bikes to make riding "safer" is not carefully considered. The default 25 km/h speed limiter can be unsafe which is why I disabled mine. Imagine trying to adjust your speed to get away/around traffic and having the engine slow down for you instead. It can be very dangerous at the wrong time.
these laws are introduced by people who do not ride these bikes.
I got modded down for talking about the modchip option below to remove the speed limiter. Quite funny on a site called "hacker" news.
Regardless, the speed limiter on some bikes to make riding "safer" is not carefully considered. The default 25 km/h speed limiter can be unsafe which is why I disabled mine. Imagine trying to adjust your speed to get away/around traffic and having the engine slow down for you instead. It can be very dangerous at the wrong time.
these laws are introduced by people who do not ride these bikes.
E-bikes are limited to 26 km/h here, much faster than "most people regularly go on a pedal bicycle" and these faster bikes are used disproportionately often by older (more fragile) people.
Here's a DIY bicycle ABS from 2010 https://circuitcellar.com/contests/designstellaris2010/winne...
It's interesting to see, but a decade old DIY product is nowhere near the same quality and performance as a new product made by one of the largest and most respected engineering firms on the planet.
E-bikes continue their slow march towards convergence with electric motorcycles.
I see both of those (and more) used by way way different groups of people here in Switzerland.
- e-bikes up to 45 km/h require a "light motorcycle" license (much like a Vespa does), lights, license plate, and a helmet. They drive (or are ridden? the line gets blurry) on the road like a Vespa. The people on them are generally people that already commuted everywhere by bike, now they just end up less sweaty when they arrive.
- e-bikes up to 25 km/h are treated exactly like regular bikes. They're driven by pretty much everyone that wants to afford one - commuters, rich teenagers, grannies, you name it.
- I never see electric motorcycles. Every single neither-a-e-bike-nor-an-e-scooter motorcycle is either a Harley Davidson or a sports bike. I know they're not electric because I can hear them both from 3 miles away.
- Vespa type scooters are around, but rarely electric. I assume people just keep the ICE ones they already own and switch to something else when those hit EOL.
- What's really taken off is electric sit-down scooters. They don't require helmets, are illegal to ride on roads, and lots and lots of 16-25 year olds just ride around on them in the evening every single day. They're styled to look like Harleys etc. to appeal to the rider's ego. It's amazing how they turned "scooters you stand on are for Bay Area dweebs" into "this will make you look so cool, dude!" by adding a seat and trim.
- e-bikes up to 45 km/h require a "light motorcycle" license (much like a Vespa does), lights, license plate, and a helmet. They drive (or are ridden? the line gets blurry) on the road like a Vespa. The people on them are generally people that already commuted everywhere by bike, now they just end up less sweaty when they arrive.
- e-bikes up to 25 km/h are treated exactly like regular bikes. They're driven by pretty much everyone that wants to afford one - commuters, rich teenagers, grannies, you name it.
- I never see electric motorcycles. Every single neither-a-e-bike-nor-an-e-scooter motorcycle is either a Harley Davidson or a sports bike. I know they're not electric because I can hear them both from 3 miles away.
- Vespa type scooters are around, but rarely electric. I assume people just keep the ICE ones they already own and switch to something else when those hit EOL.
- What's really taken off is electric sit-down scooters. They don't require helmets, are illegal to ride on roads, and lots and lots of 16-25 year olds just ride around on them in the evening every single day. They're styled to look like Harleys etc. to appeal to the rider's ego. It's amazing how they turned "scooters you stand on are for Bay Area dweebs" into "this will make you look so cool, dude!" by adding a seat and trim.
Curious what seated electric scooters you're referring to, any chance you know of a brand or model you could point to as an example?
I see popularity with stand up e-scooters as well as e-bikes as well as e-longboards here in NYC, some electric vespa-style scooters, but not sure what you are referring. Any chance it's like the Super 73?
I see popularity with stand up e-scooters as well as e-bikes as well as e-longboards here in NYC, some electric vespa-style scooters, but not sure what you are referring. Any chance it's like the Super 73?
Here's a (apparently non-brand) one: https://www.easymotorswinterthur.ch/produkt/citytwister-6-pr...
(That one is available in multiple versions, but the base one I linked is the low power category I was talking about)
(That one is available in multiple versions, but the base one I linked is the low power category I was talking about)
[deleted]
the distinction feels somewhat arbitrary. the fact that you can also pedal doesn't make it not a motorcycle. it's just that electric motor take a lot less space so they look less bulky, but the functionality is the same
I mean, most US states (but not all) have codified three ebike classes. Class 1 is pedal assist (no throttle) up to 20mph. Class 2 has a throttle up to 20mph. Class 3 is pedal assist (no throttle) up to 28mph.
I have a class 3 ebike. The only difference between it and a normal bike is that I don’t have to work as hard to turn the pedals. As a result, I can go up hills easier. And maybe go a couple mph faster than my body would be capable of on a normal bike. But the overall experience is the same as biking. I’m still burning some calories, and going up hills isn’t exactly easy either. It’s a fantastic balance which turns biking from less of a sport and exercise into more of a fun activity.
I’m not regularly going anywhere close to 28mph either unless I’m going downhill. It’s very comfortable to pedal at 15mph or so. (E.g. the ebike doesn’t make me feel like I must go fast all the time.)
Once you step outside of this class-based system, I’m guessing the law changes pretty drastically. An electric motor on a bike allowing 50mph speeds is probably not treated by law as a bicycle.
I have a class 3 ebike. The only difference between it and a normal bike is that I don’t have to work as hard to turn the pedals. As a result, I can go up hills easier. And maybe go a couple mph faster than my body would be capable of on a normal bike. But the overall experience is the same as biking. I’m still burning some calories, and going up hills isn’t exactly easy either. It’s a fantastic balance which turns biking from less of a sport and exercise into more of a fun activity.
I’m not regularly going anywhere close to 28mph either unless I’m going downhill. It’s very comfortable to pedal at 15mph or so. (E.g. the ebike doesn’t make me feel like I must go fast all the time.)
Once you step outside of this class-based system, I’m guessing the law changes pretty drastically. An electric motor on a bike allowing 50mph speeds is probably not treated by law as a bicycle.
Being able to pedal can be a legal distinction for a distinct class of vehicles.
Particularly in US via the push for mopeds in the 1970's as a response to concern about fuel economy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moped
Particularly in US via the push for mopeds in the 1970's as a response to concern about fuel economy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moped
As they should.
There are several ebikes that on throttle can hit close to 50 mph, which is enough for commuting on road ways, while having a low power pedelec mode for regular bike path commuting. This is the perfect solution to public transportation, compared to any other alternative.
There are several ebikes that on throttle can hit close to 50 mph, which is enough for commuting on road ways, while having a low power pedelec mode for regular bike path commuting. This is the perfect solution to public transportation, compared to any other alternative.
You mean "private transportation"?
I'm an avid bike rider, and it's not the lack of a motor that holds me back from promoting it as anything like the "perfect solution" for anything - the reality is bikes do expose you to more danger of getting injured, aren't great in wet weather, and unsuitable for longer distances or when carrying bulky loads. But for any journey that those aren't the primary concerns, regular push bikes are pretty close to perfect. I can see e-bikes being handy in hotter/hillier climates or for riders with physical conditions that exclude them from maintaining the leg strength (and/or aerobic capacity) to provide their own pedal power. I can't help thinking a large number of e-bike riders who are young and able-bodied are eschewing a good opportunity to keep themselves fit.
> the reality is bikes do expose you to more danger of getting injured, aren't great in wet weather, and unsuitable for longer distances or when carrying bulky loads.
No I do in fact mean public, because a properly put together pedelec bike is fairly cheap compared to even the cheapest car, and that is the primary driver for a whole lotta people when it comes to transport, especially in urban environments. Its the reason motorcycles are super popular in Europe, where owning a car is more expensive despite the lower danger.
Non-ebikes are slow, and require effort to actually pedal, which is out of reach for a lot of people. Stick a motor on it, and suddenly you can get to work in a reasonable time (sometimes faster due to having the ability to go off-road onto paths), and without putting in effort.
No I do in fact mean public, because a properly put together pedelec bike is fairly cheap compared to even the cheapest car, and that is the primary driver for a whole lotta people when it comes to transport, especially in urban environments. Its the reason motorcycles are super popular in Europe, where owning a car is more expensive despite the lower danger.
Non-ebikes are slow, and require effort to actually pedal, which is out of reach for a lot of people. Stick a motor on it, and suddenly you can get to work in a reasonable time (sometimes faster due to having the ability to go off-road onto paths), and without putting in effort.
A bus is public transportation. A train is public transportation. A bike-share program is, tentatively, public transportation.
Price is not a factor here- motorcycles are not public transportation because they are cheap. Bicycles are not public transportation because they are yet cheaper. Personal conveyance is not public transportation.
Price is not a factor here- motorcycles are not public transportation because they are cheap. Bicycles are not public transportation because they are yet cheaper. Personal conveyance is not public transportation.
"Out of reach" how though? For less effort than walking you can still move at 20k/h (assuming flat/paved uncrowded paths). If "a lot of people" aren't capable of that I'm not sure the problem is with the bike...
Where I live there's something weird about ebikes, escooters and regulation. I can only buy ebike that goes up to 25km/h, yet escooters are like 1500W 90km/h beasts.
I don't mind if shop adds licence plate or whatever is needed for faster ebikes to be legal, just get it sorted.
I don't mind if shop adds licence plate or whatever is needed for faster ebikes to be legal, just get it sorted.
That's pretty much the same anywhere that chose to regulate it. It's about delineating between licensed and unlicensed users, and keeping a segment of vehicles off the footpaths. They essentially had to put the line in the sand somewhere, and they chose 25km/h. I can easily pedal faster than 25km/h, but the speed isn't really the whole point just a means to an end for regulatory purposes.
That line in the sand does a few things:
* Makes children ineligible for powered riding over 25km/h
* Forces anything powered faster through the right safety standards testing
* Applies a whole new segment of laws and penalties to your riding
* (in my country) forces you to wear a helmet that could actually stand up to an accident on the road
* Makes you join the liability/insurance infrastructure of licensed road use
In a car first community (like most of the US) I think it makes a lot of sense, in a bike focused community I think it's worth debating a bit. It would be great to ride a long separated bike path at 30-40kmph powered to work. Dreamy. But that's pretty rapid at the scale of humans and bikes, 40kmph anywhere but a separated bike path is just asking for trouble.
That line in the sand does a few things:
* Makes children ineligible for powered riding over 25km/h
* Forces anything powered faster through the right safety standards testing
* Applies a whole new segment of laws and penalties to your riding
* (in my country) forces you to wear a helmet that could actually stand up to an accident on the road
* Makes you join the liability/insurance infrastructure of licensed road use
In a car first community (like most of the US) I think it makes a lot of sense, in a bike focused community I think it's worth debating a bit. It would be great to ride a long separated bike path at 30-40kmph powered to work. Dreamy. But that's pretty rapid at the scale of humans and bikes, 40kmph anywhere but a separated bike path is just asking for trouble.
I ride an ebike where motor assist is limited up to 25km/h, and sometimes i whish EU regulation would allow it to just go a wee bit faster before the engine cuts out, e.g. 30-35 km/h. Thats no fast than coasting down a moderatly sized hill. I know you can hack your bike using various devices, but thats not worth it if I get into an accident.
All that expensive regulation does a great job of cementing the status quo where people default to cars for commuting.
It doesn't help no, but I think there are far bigger problems than that in the way of cycle commuting in most cities.
Your profile says Auckland. The law in NZ [0, 1] doesn't specify a speed limit but a power limit of 300W. It looks like you can buy a 45km/h ebike like [2].
The reason you probably see a lot of 25km/h ebikes is that in the EU, anything faster than that is regulated as a moped and requires a license, so I imagine the 25km/h bikes sell more.
The reason why even the faster bikes are 45km/h is also probably because that that's the maximum speed of a bicycle in the EU.
[0]: https://gazette.govt.nz/notice/id/2013-au4618
[1]: https://www.nzta.govt.nz/vehicles/vehicle-types/low-powered-...
[2]: https://www.giant-bicycles.com/nz/fastroad-eplus-ex-pro-45km...
The reason you probably see a lot of 25km/h ebikes is that in the EU, anything faster than that is regulated as a moped and requires a license, so I imagine the 25km/h bikes sell more.
The reason why even the faster bikes are 45km/h is also probably because that that's the maximum speed of a bicycle in the EU.
[0]: https://gazette.govt.nz/notice/id/2013-au4618
[1]: https://www.nzta.govt.nz/vehicles/vehicle-types/low-powered-...
[2]: https://www.giant-bicycles.com/nz/fastroad-eplus-ex-pro-45km...
45km/h is the perfect speed to get honked at even by people who are following the speed limits. The only place they are useful is 30 km/h zones and for those a 25km/h electric bicycle is more versatile because you can use it on bicycle paths.
There is no maximum speed limit for bicycles in the EU AFAIK. They must obey standard speed limits so 50 km/h in cities or 90 outside (good luck with both of them) or whatever the limit is.
>>They must obey standard speed limits so 50 km/h in cities or 90 outside (good luck with both of them) or whatever the limit is.
There was a court case about this actually, lol. A cyclist was caught by a police car going above the posted speed limit(I think it was 30km/h where he was), and he refused to accept the ticket. The case went to court and he argued that since the law doesn't require bicycles to be fitted with any instrument to measure speed, he is not required to know the exact speed he's travelling at. And weirdly....the court agreed and the ticket was cancelled.
There was a court case about this actually, lol. A cyclist was caught by a police car going above the posted speed limit(I think it was 30km/h where he was), and he refused to accept the ticket. The case went to court and he argued that since the law doesn't require bicycles to be fitted with any instrument to measure speed, he is not required to know the exact speed he's travelling at. And weirdly....the court agreed and the ticket was cancelled.
why is that weird? seems like a quite reasonable argument
Because in almost all other situations of life you are required to obey the law even if you aren't aware of it. For a different example - cyclists aren't legally required to pass a driving test, yet are required to be familiar with, and obey all rules of the road. You couldn't argue in court that as a cyclist you don't have to stop on red because the law doesn't require you to pass a theory test before cycling. I find the situation similar - you should make sure not to go over the speed limit, even if the law doesn't require you to carry a speed measuring device with you.
fair points
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/en/ALL/?uri=CELEX%3A... specifies that "Light two-wheel powered vehicle" can only go up to 45km/h.
Edit: so, yes, no speed limit for bikes, but speed limit for ebikes.
Edit: so, yes, no speed limit for bikes, but speed limit for ebikes.
Yes, the difference is the "powered" part in the cited document. It's not terribly clear because they don't explicitly exclude acoustic bikes but they also never include acoustic bikes in any category that is to be legislated (article 4).
Can't be an EU law, few things are outside of the very specific scope of product feature requirements. Germany (part of the EU) has or exactly reverse: explicitly posted speed limits apply to bikes just like they do to powered vehicles, but the law that defines the implicit speed limits (50 inside cities, 100 outside) is written with wording that explicitly restricts its applicability to powered vehicles (that's how the superset of motorcycles, cars and trucks is usually written). This certainly wasn't the intention of that law, but it has been tested in court. When you use that loophole, "they" can't do anything about it other than invoking the catchall law of "don't do unreasonably irresponsible shit in traffic" (which certainly they can)
for e-bikes there the pedal assist has to cut out when going over 25 km/h (+10% error, so at a maximum 27.5 km/h). So of course you can speed down a hill at 55 km/h, but it has to be unassisted. The motor cannot be more than 250W nominal power.
You can actually buy e-bikes going up to 45 km/h but they are regulated as scooters and has to be registered (usually free), requires a drivers license and the use of moped helmets and you're usually not allowed to use them in bike lanes. Oh, and you need insurance too. So for most people it's not worth the hassle.
You can actually buy e-bikes going up to 45 km/h but they are regulated as scooters and has to be registered (usually free), requires a drivers license and the use of moped helmets and you're usually not allowed to use them in bike lanes. Oh, and you need insurance too. So for most people it's not worth the hassle.
Something like the eRockit is a better idea.
If you want to go 90 km/h shouldn't you be safer on a motorbike (electric or not) than on a bicycle? That's already sorted: license plate, driver license and insurance.
25km/h is a reasonable limit. It's the scooters that are unlicensed motorbikes and don't belong on bike paths or shared paths.
Any half-fit cyclist can do way more than 25kmh sustained on flats. From 30 up it becomes way harder. I'd put it at least at 30.
>>Any half-fit cyclist
So like, almost no one who cycles/commutes from time to time then? Don't get me wrong, 25km/h isn't particularily fast, but I'd struggle going at that speed for more than few minutes, and my wife definitely wouldn't keep up. I used to cycle loads when I was younger, on a proper road bike that kind of speed is nothing. But on a hardtail or a city bike? It's actually quite hard! We own an e-bike and I think the 25km/h assist limit is spot on.
So like, almost no one who cycles/commutes from time to time then? Don't get me wrong, 25km/h isn't particularily fast, but I'd struggle going at that speed for more than few minutes, and my wife definitely wouldn't keep up. I used to cycle loads when I was younger, on a proper road bike that kind of speed is nothing. But on a hardtail or a city bike? It's actually quite hard! We own an e-bike and I think the 25km/h assist limit is spot on.
I do effortless(=no transpiration) 30 to 35km/m on flat grounds with no headwind sustained. Where 'sustained' means something like 10 to 15 minutes max, since after that I either arrived at my location, or on longer tours I have to slow down many times for other traffic, pedestrians, traffic lights, etc.
On a three speed 28" from ca. 1985 btw., weighing 12kg with side dynamo, lights, mudguards, rack, and a wirebasket fixed with a bunch of cable ties on top of that(for my back pack).
On a three speed 28" from ca. 1985 btw., weighing 12kg with side dynamo, lights, mudguards, rack, and a wirebasket fixed with a bunch of cable ties on top of that(for my back pack).
Good for you if you only intend to use bike paths. If you want to get on roads you need to sustain 50-60km/h, peak 70 in most cities.
I'd much rather do that on a proper ebike and not on a escooter. I've got drivers licence already, bureaucracy shouldn't be in the way of registering ebikes as appropriate.
I'd much rather do that on a proper ebike and not on a escooter. I've got drivers licence already, bureaucracy shouldn't be in the way of registering ebikes as appropriate.
>> If you want to get on roads you need to sustain 50-60km/h
I'm sorry, but that's just not true - again, I used to cycle absolute loads(several thousand km a year) and "sustaining"(doing it for a long period of time without getting absolutely destroyed) 50km/h is extremely hard, you need to be a pretty good cyclist and on a good road bike.
And no, you don't need to be keeping up with traffic, in cities or otherwise. Don't see why you think you should.
I'm sorry, but that's just not true - again, I used to cycle absolute loads(several thousand km a year) and "sustaining"(doing it for a long period of time without getting absolutely destroyed) 50km/h is extremely hard, you need to be a pretty good cyclist and on a good road bike.
And no, you don't need to be keeping up with traffic, in cities or otherwise. Don't see why you think you should.
Context is ebike, not by foot.
I had bike that could do 50km/h and it was just a bit too slow. You wanna be comfortable overtaking cars, not just be squished in-between.
I had bike that could do 50km/h and it was just a bit too slow. You wanna be comfortable overtaking cars, not just be squished in-between.
That's an electric motorbike. Get it registered and with road rated hydraulic disc brakes, wheels, and suspension and wear road rated safety gear. It doesn't belong on separated bikeways with children and mixed use paths with babies and dogs.
An ebike is for the same roles as a human powered bikes, and no human can consistently move at speeds that are comfortable for overtaking cars on the flat or uphill.
Escooters, if anything, should be even slower as their geometry makes emergency braking impossible, but a 25km/h, 250W limit for everything is an acceptable compromise to reduce regulatory burden.
If you want a stand up scooter that produces kilowatts and does 90, then it's also an electric motorbike (or motor scooter/moped where that's a category) and should be held to the same safety standards.
An ebike is for the same roles as a human powered bikes, and no human can consistently move at speeds that are comfortable for overtaking cars on the flat or uphill.
Escooters, if anything, should be even slower as their geometry makes emergency braking impossible, but a 25km/h, 250W limit for everything is an acceptable compromise to reduce regulatory burden.
If you want a stand up scooter that produces kilowatts and does 90, then it's also an electric motorbike (or motor scooter/moped where that's a category) and should be held to the same safety standards.
I think you missed my og post. These bikes are capable doing such speeds, but no one sells them because regulation
I'd also be pro 32, but 25 is fine. I tend to do 25-28 on my electric (weird geometry so it's unstable at higher speeds without a load) and 15-35 on my acoustic.
Sustaining over 30 is actually a fair bit of work on an upright though. The vast majority of people do under 25 on flats or uphills most of the time.
Sustaining over 30 is actually a fair bit of work on an upright though. The vast majority of people do under 25 on flats or uphills most of the time.
For any half fit cyclist, the 25kmh ebike limit is the minimum speed. That is the speed you go uphill. Downhill and flats, you can go a lot faster, because you didn't spend your energy accelerating to 25.
But then you're on your own with a bike that weights at least 10 kg more than it should. I was in a group of friends. One of us had an ebike. He was good on our way to the hills and of course uphill. We had to stop and wait him a lot of times on the way back, because we were doing at least 30 and he was struggling to keep the pace without the help from the engine. I suggest not to mix bikes and ebikes unless you are out for a slow Sunday afternoon trip.
In a large enough group the body weight differences easily outweigh (heh) the bike weight differences. And of course the fitness differences are a whole other story.
and I trust a half fit cyclist more. If you can pedal 40km/h on the flats, then you know enough bike handling to do it compared to giving any random person who can normally only do 20km/h the power to go 40km/h.
Put a speed limit on a bike path then, not on device. Same on pedestrian paths - going over 10km/h on any vehicle or even running is unsafe.
I agree 25km/h is probably reasonable for a bike path - most city traffic averages around that speed anyway, so if your vehicle is capable - go mix with the cars instead.
I agree 25km/h is probably reasonable for a bike path - most city traffic averages around that speed anyway, so if your vehicle is capable - go mix with the cars instead.
> Put a speed limit on a bike path then, not on device.
No. Speed limits require enforcement which is costly and socially harmful, adds massive overhead to owning a bike, and does not work. Just look at cars. Then you need safety features on the road, ppe, and vehicle for dealing with people that are moving faster anyway.
Then there's a slippery slope towards mandated tracking and anti repair garbage that we're already sliding down. Yamaha and Bosch are already lobbying for geofencing.
If you want a powered vehicle for mixing with cars at car speeds, we already have a category for that -- it's called a motorbike.
If you want a powered vehicle for doing 50km/h we have a category for that -- microcars and mopeds. Lobby for more 40 and 50 zones that are only for those (and for bicycles and pedestrians to share at their own judgement as they do roads).
Ebikes are already excessively large and heavy due to improper testing methodology on power limits. We don't need giant, overpowered machines and importing the arms race on size and mandatory safety regulations from roads.
No. Speed limits require enforcement which is costly and socially harmful, adds massive overhead to owning a bike, and does not work. Just look at cars. Then you need safety features on the road, ppe, and vehicle for dealing with people that are moving faster anyway.
Then there's a slippery slope towards mandated tracking and anti repair garbage that we're already sliding down. Yamaha and Bosch are already lobbying for geofencing.
If you want a powered vehicle for mixing with cars at car speeds, we already have a category for that -- it's called a motorbike.
If you want a powered vehicle for doing 50km/h we have a category for that -- microcars and mopeds. Lobby for more 40 and 50 zones that are only for those (and for bicycles and pedestrians to share at their own judgement as they do roads).
Ebikes are already excessively large and heavy due to improper testing methodology on power limits. We don't need giant, overpowered machines and importing the arms race on size and mandatory safety regulations from roads.
I disagree, just get a scooter at that point. Large part of the ebike appeal is You would not need a drivers license and registration for it.
That's kinda crazy...
Here in Western Australia they're all limited to 25km/h, though you can go faster on the bike using your legs, the electronic assist must cut out there.
How widely these rules are actually followed, I have no clue.
Here in Western Australia they're all limited to 25km/h, though you can go faster on the bike using your legs, the electronic assist must cut out there.
How widely these rules are actually followed, I have no clue.
You can easily "game" the cut out by changing what the system thinks your tyre diameter is (depending on the system)
Edit: not saying you should.
Edit: not saying you should.
Yes and some other systems have a magnet / sensor to measure speed so this can also be manipulated.
The problem with my bike was after 27km/h the motor would cut out. you could pedal harder to go faster although it'd feel like pedalling through mud without the motor.
Once I removed the speed limit, it is limited by my pedalling and the gearing speed combined with the limit of the motor. it feels natural like a bike.
Once I removed the speed limit, it is limited by my pedalling and the gearing speed combined with the limit of the motor. it feels natural like a bike.
Sadly, even with accoustic bikes you get the antisocial on shared paths riding furiously. I worry that if defeating assistance limiters becomes mainstream then the antisocial out there won't even need to exert themselves to ruin it for everyone.
It is true. I think the limit should be there by default, even though I modded mine. I talked to others in a cycle group and they commonly had older riders joining with a new ebike only to hurt themselves as their riding skills did not match the speed of their new bike.
Personally I only ride full speed without the limiter when on the road. If riding on paths or populated areas then I slow down to a cruise.
Personally I only ride full speed without the limiter when on the road. If riding on paths or populated areas then I slow down to a cruise.
> older riders joining with a new ebike only to hurt themselves as their riding skills did not match the speed of their new bike.
Apparently a big driver of injury rates increasing in The Netherlands - old people on new ebikes riding like they're 20 again.
Apparently a big driver of injury rates increasing in The Netherlands - old people on new ebikes riding like they're 20 again.
You can buy modchips online that remove the speed limit. I did this for my ebike which was limited to 25km/h. With the modchip installed it can go much faster.
Some countries are starting to clamp down on shenanigans like this, since without the speed limit an e-bike or an electric scooter is in the moped/motorcycle category and needs to be registered like one.
I don't like it, but it could perhaps be fixed with changing the regulations. However, e-scooters are really getting a bad reputation in the media lately and that is probably not helping the cause.
I don't like it, but it could perhaps be fixed with changing the regulations. However, e-scooters are really getting a bad reputation in the media lately and that is probably not helping the cause.
For good reasons: increasing speed without uprating the rest of the system - brakes in particular, is looking for trouble.
Also, 25 km/h vehicles are fit to mingle with bicycles on cycleways, whereas superior speeds belong on the road with the registered motorized traffic. Different beasts, different regulations.
And then there is liability and insurance - those are why the clampdown will happen fast.
Also, 25 km/h vehicles are fit to mingle with bicycles on cycleways, whereas superior speeds belong on the road with the registered motorized traffic. Different beasts, different regulations.
And then there is liability and insurance - those are why the clampdown will happen fast.
Whether its escooter or ebike - if you drive anywhere near 25km/h on pedestrian paths - it's already messed up.
Do whatever you want on the road, so long your ebike can withstand 50km/h. No way escooters can do those speeds safely.
Do whatever you want on the road, so long your ebike can withstand 50km/h. No way escooters can do those speeds safely.
> No way escooters can do those speeds safely.
Of course they can, but you'll eventually be killed by a car. People drive like shit and don't care if they kill someone on a scooter.
Of course they can, but you'll eventually be killed by a car. People drive like shit and don't care if they kill someone on a scooter.
[1] https://www.hdforums.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/1920sHar...