Ask HN: Why don't residences in Spain (Europe?) have smoke detectors?
11 comments
I lived in France for 12 years and I never saw a smoke detector or sprinkler system there. I think the difference in death rates (based on your link Western Europe has less than half the death rate of the US) is mostly due to differences in construction materials. In the US nearly all single family homes are built from wood while in Europe most buildings of any kind are made from stone, brick, reinforced concrete, etc.
Beyond that though there seem to have been a lot of deaths in the US in tenement like buildings in cities which usually have brick facades, though I'm not sure what materials were/are used internally. In the US these types of buildings usually had/have external fire escapes, another feature I never saw in France.
I think European apartment buildings have traditionally had fire-safe structurally isolated apartments. This was probably not the case in pre-war US buildings. Modern US apartment buildings often do have that feature. The building I am currently living in was built in the 70's and is reinforced concrete. Apartments have smoke detectors but they only sound inside the apartment. The building also doesn't have external fire escapes and the recommendation is to stay in your apartment if the building fire alarm goes off unless instructed to evacuate by firefighters.
On the other hand Europe has in the more distant past had major issues with fire safety. Much of London burned down in 1666 and ancient Rome is also known to have had some major fires. It seems like Europe had learned some lessons about fire safety by the time the majority of its current buildings were constructed that the US either forgot or chose to ignore.
Beyond that though there seem to have been a lot of deaths in the US in tenement like buildings in cities which usually have brick facades, though I'm not sure what materials were/are used internally. In the US these types of buildings usually had/have external fire escapes, another feature I never saw in France.
I think European apartment buildings have traditionally had fire-safe structurally isolated apartments. This was probably not the case in pre-war US buildings. Modern US apartment buildings often do have that feature. The building I am currently living in was built in the 70's and is reinforced concrete. Apartments have smoke detectors but they only sound inside the apartment. The building also doesn't have external fire escapes and the recommendation is to stay in your apartment if the building fire alarm goes off unless instructed to evacuate by firefighters.
On the other hand Europe has in the more distant past had major issues with fire safety. Much of London burned down in 1666 and ancient Rome is also known to have had some major fires. It seems like Europe had learned some lessons about fire safety by the time the majority of its current buildings were constructed that the US either forgot or chose to ignore.
I am currently living in Spain and another oddity I noticed is that almost all external doors lock automatically when closed, and require the key to open, even from the inside. Always struck me as a bit odd that in an emergency I might be locked inside my own home without an easy egress method. My house (and most others in the area) have bars on all the windows to prevent thieves from entering, but would also prevent me from just jumping out of a window as well.
I generally just leave the keys in the door at night, just in case, but it's still always in the back of my mind how unsafe it is.
I generally just leave the keys in the door at night, just in case, but it's still always in the back of my mind how unsafe it is.
Because the EU isn't forcing Spain to do the right thing lol.
Now seriously, in residential buildings there's no obligation, only recommendations, as per the latest "regulations": NTP 215(1988) for smoke detectors, NTP 40 (1983) for fire detectors, and NTP 41 (1983) for fire alarms. [0] Industrial and office buildings are way more tightly regulated, though.
Spain lags in that sense vs. most of Western Europe [1].
"Different building materials and building codes": I'd say that the heavy concrete-brick construction style in most urban housing limits the damage of fire. While anecdotal, I've seen a few fires in Spain, and generally they're mostly a scare and self contained to one or few units.
"Cost": for smoke detectors the cost is very low, yet they're still relatively uncommon. Sprinklers are generally limited to office buildings. Sprinklers are very expensive though, especially for old buildings.
"Business/politics": most of WE is ahead of Spain, so hardly US specific lobbying/awareness.
"Rescue/fire suppression": not different from WE.
Just install some smoke detector yourself for your unit. If you're renting ask the owner to ask in the next "comunidad de vecinos" to pool money to install them in common areas. You may even install them yourself in common areas: if they're concealed enough, nobody would care.
[0] https://saludlaboralydiscapacidad.org/salud-laboral/gestion-...
[1] https://www.modernbuildingalliance.eu/EU-fire-safety-guide
Now seriously, in residential buildings there's no obligation, only recommendations, as per the latest "regulations": NTP 215(1988) for smoke detectors, NTP 40 (1983) for fire detectors, and NTP 41 (1983) for fire alarms. [0] Industrial and office buildings are way more tightly regulated, though.
Spain lags in that sense vs. most of Western Europe [1].
"Different building materials and building codes": I'd say that the heavy concrete-brick construction style in most urban housing limits the damage of fire. While anecdotal, I've seen a few fires in Spain, and generally they're mostly a scare and self contained to one or few units.
"Cost": for smoke detectors the cost is very low, yet they're still relatively uncommon. Sprinklers are generally limited to office buildings. Sprinklers are very expensive though, especially for old buildings.
"Business/politics": most of WE is ahead of Spain, so hardly US specific lobbying/awareness.
"Rescue/fire suppression": not different from WE.
Just install some smoke detector yourself for your unit. If you're renting ask the owner to ask in the next "comunidad de vecinos" to pool money to install them in common areas. You may even install them yourself in common areas: if they're concealed enough, nobody would care.
[0] https://saludlaboralydiscapacidad.org/salud-laboral/gestion-...
[1] https://www.modernbuildingalliance.eu/EU-fire-safety-guide
Makes sense thanks. But I still wonder why where are not more fire related deaths in Spain in that case. I don't think my family is the outlier in not having smoke detectors or sprinklers installed. Anecdotally this seems like the norm and installed smoke detectors would be an outlier.
> But I still wonder why where are not more fire related deaths in Spain in that case.
I wonder if it would be interesting to try and find out what the most common causes of fires are in different countries.
I wonder if it would be interesting to try and find out what the most common causes of fires are in different countries.
> Business/Politics - Fire safety manufacturers have had more success in the US getting their devices into building codes and legislation
I think this is the most likely answer. We had that recently too and I have 4 smoke detectors in a normal sized apartment. A bit paranoid in my opinion. A carbon monoxide detector is sensible perhaps.
This is a clear case of corruption in my opinion. In my country there are 500 death by year through burning and that includes traffic victims. I would guess a single digit percentile from that would really be cause by a fire in your home.
I think this is the most likely answer. We had that recently too and I have 4 smoke detectors in a normal sized apartment. A bit paranoid in my opinion. A carbon monoxide detector is sensible perhaps.
This is a clear case of corruption in my opinion. In my country there are 500 death by year through burning and that includes traffic victims. I would guess a single digit percentile from that would really be cause by a fire in your home.
It might be in general in the US most houses are on a level 2 of "Three little pigs" construction rating, aka made of wood while in Spain most houses and apartments, and in cities most people live in apartment, they're built with bricks which is more fire resistant. Anyway, it might also be that those apartments are decades old and maybe newer constructions do have smoke alarms and sprinklers. I'd say in office buildings they do have smoke alarma and sprinklers by law.
It's generally the things inside that burn first, not the building itself.
I've seen some raging fires in concrete buildings.
I've seen some raging fires in concrete buildings.
Exactly. You will be dead long before your house collapses due to smoke inhalation from the burning items inside the house.
For all the typical jokes about US construction, fire safety shouldn't be one of them. We use and mandate drywall with specific fire-ratings, which is very effective at stopping fire from spreading. Our electrical code is one of the strictest in the world and many areas mandate sprinkler systems. Smoke and CO detectors are just a no-brainer, given how cheap they are.
For all the typical jokes about US construction, fire safety shouldn't be one of them. We use and mandate drywall with specific fire-ratings, which is very effective at stopping fire from spreading. Our electrical code is one of the strictest in the world and many areas mandate sprinkler systems. Smoke and CO detectors are just a no-brainer, given how cheap they are.
In Poland, most apartment buildings are either concrete or brick. I've yet to see a fire where more than a couple apartments were affected.
Overall, fires don't register on people's list of dangers very highly (or at all) over here, and that's even with many apartments having gas burners for heating up water or even entire apartments. I've seen a couple of carbon monoxide dectors (people are afraid of gas stoves malfunctioning), but I've yet to see a smoke detector in Poland. BTW the overt attention to fire codes is one the first things I noticed when visiting the US.
Overall, fires don't register on people's list of dangers very highly (or at all) over here, and that's even with many apartments having gas burners for heating up water or even entire apartments. I've seen a couple of carbon monoxide dectors (people are afraid of gas stoves malfunctioning), but I've yet to see a smoke detector in Poland. BTW the overt attention to fire codes is one the first things I noticed when visiting the US.
This sounds very similar to Spain. Thanks! Building materials suppressing the scope of fires sounds like a very plausible explanation. Though Poland has more deaths per capita than the US per the URL I quoted.
Fires not registering high seems irrelevant? When I lived in Asia, hepatitis B didn’t register high yet it was rampant.
I mean statistics also show that it's a rather not common thing, and it'd be quite difficult to hide your house or apartment being on fire.
You may have a raging fire but a well designed concrete building should be able to keep it confined to a single apartment. Non-residential buildings with different layouts are another story.
Fire yes, but smoke might be a different thing. Smoke/fire barrier doors are mostly a thing in commercial buildings.
I think this is sort of what I'm getting at. Why don't more people die of fire related causes in a country where many people might not know they need to evacuate if there is a fire?
In the US the construction code (IBC International Building Code) was written, right after the Chicago fire, that destroyed the whole city. As such fire prevention was a priority.
Also in Europe construction is with bricks, so a fire in one apartment won't spread as fast to another one giving the residents plenty of time to evacuate.
Also in Europe construction is with bricks, so a fire in one apartment won't spread as fast to another one giving the residents plenty of time to evacuate.
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Been living in France, Spain, Germany and a few other european countries. I never saw a sprinkler in any apartment in any country. In Germany, the smoke detectors are common, though.
I never saw fire escapes (the classic stairs on the outside of buildings one see when watching a movie placed in New York) either in 99% of the buildings in Europe.
I never saw fire escapes (the classic stairs on the outside of buildings one see when watching a movie placed in New York) either in 99% of the buildings in Europe.
In Australia in some states (Victoria and Queensland) it is now mandatory to have hardwired (or 10yr Lithium battery), photoelectric and interconnected smoke alarms in every room and hallway. In Victoria they also need a compliance check every 12 months if tenanted.
Because homes are made of bricks and not wood.
I'm currently staying in what I would call an average apartment block with ~40 units built in the late 70s or early 80s.
As far as I can tell there are no smoke detectors or sprinklers and there is definitely no alternative egress like a fire escape. And I don't think I've been to any residence in Spain that has either (but I'm not always checking).
Fire deaths per capita are considerably lower in Spain than in the US[0] where my impression is there is a huge emphasis on fire safety equipment like smoke detectors and sprinklers.
I expect that smoke detectors and sprinklers save lives - or certainly hard to argue that they don't at the margin regardless of the type of building they are installed in.
What's going on? Why doesn't my in-law's apartment have smoke detectors and sprinklers? Is my family actually sleeping in a death trap?
Some possible explanations I can think of: * Different building materials and building codes - On average Spanish residences more fire resistant because of their construction
* Cost - smoke detectors and sprinklers drive up costs and getting adoption might be hard if they only save a small number of marginal lives. Even if I would argue that makes them worth it everywhere
* Business/Politics - Fire safety manufacturers have had more success in the US getting their devices into building codes and legislation
* Rescue/Fire Suppression - this seems very unlikely (figure firefighting and evacuation techniques are pretty universal in the developed world) but I guess Spanish firefighters could be better at getting fires out and people evacuated
I have been wondering about this for more than a decade and this seems like a good international community to find someone who might know or people interested in the topic. I'd love people's thoughts.
[0] - https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death/fires/by-country/