Chicago Yoga Studio: "Why I won't do a Groupon"(blog.tulayoga.net)
blog.tulayoga.net
Chicago Yoga Studio: "Why I won't do a Groupon"
http://blog.tulayoga.net/2011/08/why-i-wont-do-groupon.html
7 comments
And:
Unknown said...
Agreed 100% with Rachel's comment above. Also, what makes you think Groupon would even accept you? Top tier deal sites (LivingSocial, Groupon) expect established or reputable businesses. You're too new and unproven to make the cut. You also sound naive in general.
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Unknown said...
Agreed 100% with Rachel's comment above. Also, what makes you think Groupon would even accept you? Top tier deal sites (LivingSocial, Groupon) expect established or reputable businesses. You're too new and unproven to make the cut. You also sound naive in general.
Unknown User Stats
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Rachel is not a Groupon employee. I share of office with her in Chicago. She's a wordpress developer, founder of PluggedIn consulting (http://pluggedinconsulting.com) and a great person.
Thanks, Andrew!
I would never work for Groupon or anyone else - so I would make a very bad puppet. ;) I didn't even mean to sound like I was endorsing Groupon. Groupon = marketing laziness (IMHO)
I would never work for Groupon or anyone else - so I would make a very bad puppet. ;) I didn't even mean to sound like I was endorsing Groupon. Groupon = marketing laziness (IMHO)
Oops. I don't know how, but Blogger's commenting system results in a lot of people who are OK with identifying themselves completely on other sites having a profile with only their name. I wasn't sure it was her and I hadn't seen your comment so I asked if it was her on twitter. Then I saw your comment and I checked back and she'd already replied to me on twitter that it is her. Case closed.
OT: I think Google will probably make a major change to Blogger in the next year or two which may fix their identity linking issue. It will be interesting to see where they go.
OT: I think Google will probably make a major change to Blogger in the next year or two which may fix their identity linking issue. It will be interesting to see where they go.
great persons can be sockpuppets, but I think said qualification is quite unreasonable.
Is it really up for discussion when someone says "I actually share an office with this person and know they aren't a shill"? I don't think it is up for discussion anymore.
> someone
It's a grouponspiracy all the way down, man.
It's a grouponspiracy all the way down, man.
agree being that Groupon originated in Chicago, she could just be a supporter / sockpuppet.
I know both Rachel and Andrew personally. Neither of them work for Groupon and they, as Andrew explained, share an office in Chicago (with an insanely beautiful view that I'm jealous of!).
And frankly, they both rock. :)
And frankly, they both rock. :)
That's really startling. Is this something Groupon employees are expressly paid to do? Is that one reason why their costs are so high?
The top modded comment on this story is an anonymous user directly accusing Groupon of sockpuppeting online discussions citing evidence that is refuted downthread by a non-anonymous HN user. Not OK. This is a form of incivility.
Words matter. If you don't know someone is a paid shill for another company, use words that indicate that.
Words matter. If you don't know someone is a paid shill for another company, use words that indicate that.
I respect your trying to bring attention to incivility on HN, but in what way is the user anonymous? Their account seems old enough and has plenty karma to make me respect their opinion.
Also, in my case, the GP expressed the same opinion that I had after seeing those comments on the OP.
Also, in my case, the GP expressed the same opinion that I had after seeing those comments on the OP.
True, I didn't know for a fact that Rachel Baker was a sockpuppet but she sure looked and sounded like one. If she had linked her consulting website profile to her freshly minted Blogger profile, I probably wouldn't have jumped to that conclusion.
Was I uncivil? Some might argue polluting blog comments with marketing pabulum is uncivil. I just thought it was kind of interesting, indicative perhaps of where Groupon invests some of its resources.
Was I uncivil? Some might argue polluting blog comments with marketing pabulum is uncivil. I just thought it was kind of interesting, indicative perhaps of where Groupon invests some of its resources.
You just repeated the accusation, even though you know you're wrong.
Not a Groupon sockpuppet at all. I just didn't have a blogger account tied to my Google Apps account.
I am not a frequent Blogger commenter.
That's exactly the type of response a sockpuppet would post. :)
> I think Groupon is a guaranteed and low effort marketing platform for businesses.
Well, one would hope they weren't an _actual_ Groupon rep. This is _not_ the sort of thing that a company trying to IPO should be saying.
Well, one would hope they weren't an _actual_ Groupon rep. This is _not_ the sort of thing that a company trying to IPO should be saying.
And this comes from Groupon's hometown. Ouch!
My impression is that Groupon works better for brining in incremental revenue. A prior HN post on skydiving captured this very well. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2654788 What I mean by incremental is customers who would never use your business to begin with. It also helps if the business is high margin. These businesses tend to have high fixed costs too.
We recently used Groupon for a midweek booking of a fantastic bed and breakfast. Great for them - we'd have never heard of it, and the revenue was largely incremental, while the costs were fixed. Great for us - a B&B when we wanted. Also great for a bespoke suit. ($3000 - a little crazy. But $600 - not so bad)
Yoga seems much more variable cost. A big part of the cost is the teacher. Some back of the napkin (streetfighting?) math suggests a class of 15 people pays $8 per a hour class. Counting prep, set up, and tear down, it takes the teacher an hour and a half. So let's say they make 60. Then it's 60 to pay for the space, AC, etc. Very low margin business. Cutting the revenue by 75% doesn't make sense unless you're selling a lot of add-ons or expecting to convert for long term customers. Both are risky propositions at best.
My impression is that Groupon works better for brining in incremental revenue. A prior HN post on skydiving captured this very well. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2654788 What I mean by incremental is customers who would never use your business to begin with. It also helps if the business is high margin. These businesses tend to have high fixed costs too.
We recently used Groupon for a midweek booking of a fantastic bed and breakfast. Great for them - we'd have never heard of it, and the revenue was largely incremental, while the costs were fixed. Great for us - a B&B when we wanted. Also great for a bespoke suit. ($3000 - a little crazy. But $600 - not so bad)
Yoga seems much more variable cost. A big part of the cost is the teacher. Some back of the napkin (streetfighting?) math suggests a class of 15 people pays $8 per a hour class. Counting prep, set up, and tear down, it takes the teacher an hour and a half. So let's say they make 60. Then it's 60 to pay for the space, AC, etc. Very low margin business. Cutting the revenue by 75% doesn't make sense unless you're selling a lot of add-ons or expecting to convert for long term customers. Both are risky propositions at best.
The post you refer to was a good example of a business that had intelligently thought through whether Groupon was good for them.
Some other special aspects of that case: Due to the nature of the business, the Groupon'ers had to sign in to a slot in the schedule, eliminating the "rush of customers" problem. And, the business had upsell options like souvenir t-shirts to extract some non-discount money from customers.
Some other special aspects of that case: Due to the nature of the business, the Groupon'ers had to sign in to a slot in the schedule, eliminating the "rush of customers" problem. And, the business had upsell options like souvenir t-shirts to extract some non-discount money from customers.
Exactly! Groupon is good for some but not all. Same with Network TV advertising. Same with newspaper coupons.
One thing no one has mentioned is Yelp. Yelp is huge for yoga. If your yoga studio doesn't have any reviews on Yelp, a lot of people are going to be hesitant to pony up $15 just to try one class. (Many studios offer a discount for new students, but this one doesn't.)
There's a big overlap between Groupon users and Yelp users, so it's a great way to get a batch of reviews up fast. But that's a double-edged sword, especially if Groupon buyers are going to be packed in like sardines in the studio's first weeks.
Here's what I'd suggest: This studio needs to get a Yelp page up right away, and at least post a message there about when they're opening. They may even want to offer a deal right there: "Mention Yelp, and get $5 off your first class!" That way they'll attract more customers (but not too many), get reviews early, and cut out the discount middleman.
There's a big overlap between Groupon users and Yelp users, so it's a great way to get a batch of reviews up fast. But that's a double-edged sword, especially if Groupon buyers are going to be packed in like sardines in the studio's first weeks.
Here's what I'd suggest: This studio needs to get a Yelp page up right away, and at least post a message there about when they're opening. They may even want to offer a deal right there: "Mention Yelp, and get $5 off your first class!" That way they'll attract more customers (but not too many), get reviews early, and cut out the discount middleman.
500 groupon customers is a lot to bear considering her calculations, but would it not make sense to offer, say, 50 groupon codes and write these off as marketing costs? Or is there a minimum limit to what groupon will work with you on.
Having said that, I have friends who won't do sushi or yoga without a groupon, which I find fascinating. When I asked would they not return somewhere that they enjoyed without a groupon they replied that there are sufficient groupons in their city to not have to do that. I must be old-school as I believe in supporting your local businesses and nurturing your community rather than saving a few dollars.
Having said that, I have friends who won't do sushi or yoga without a groupon, which I find fascinating. When I asked would they not return somewhere that they enjoyed without a groupon they replied that there are sufficient groupons in their city to not have to do that. I must be old-school as I believe in supporting your local businesses and nurturing your community rather than saving a few dollars.
Your second paragraph (sort of) contradicts the first: it says that (some) groupon users will never return unless presented with another groupon. No repeat/loyal customers.
That might be the problem with groupon: the people most likely to use groupons are the ones least likely to become loyal customers and the least likely to effectively recommend your business to their friends because all their friends know they only went there due to the groupon.
That might be the problem with groupon: the people most likely to use groupons are the ones least likely to become loyal customers and the least likely to effectively recommend your business to their friends because all their friends know they only went there due to the groupon.
Even if they don't come back, it's still better to have the Groupon chasers in your studio. You get paid at least a little bit if they buy a Groupon, compared to nothing if they don't. The marginal cost to a Yoga studio of adding another student is zero.
Of course this doesn't apply if you're running close enough to capacity that the addition of more students will degrade the experience for everyone else, but a lot of yoga studios don't have that problem, especially not at off-peak hours.
Of course this doesn't apply if you're running close enough to capacity that the addition of more students will degrade the experience for everyone else, but a lot of yoga studios don't have that problem, especially not at off-peak hours.
Right, it's a double-edged sword. 'Premium' customers find coupons unseemly and wonder why a good business needs to offer coupons (I have this knee-jerk reaction myself, as I didn't grow up in the US perhaps). On the other hand, groupon offers a level of exposure that may be compelling. I think that the yoga studio owner has come to the right conclusion to her - grow her business organically based on quality.
Reminds me of the most recent conclusion I had come to regarding Groupon: it appeals to broken businesses. If you can't get new customers by simply lowering prices (instead of offering a Groupon), then your business is on very weak ground. Leveraging Groupon's email marketing distribution for a one time boost is not going to fix this fundamental problem.
Forget lowering prices, if you cannot get customers into your business than you really need to take a step back and review your current marketing efforts.
What can be done to get more of your target customers in the door - and to keep that up on an ongoing basis?
What can be done to get more of your target customers in the door - and to keep that up on an ongoing basis?
I can't think of a worse application for Groupon than yoga. It's a long-term, continuous process. You want a reliable teacher and a relaxing, focused experience you can count on. Having the studio jam-packed with new faces isn't the way to accomplish that.
That said, if they're charging $130 per month, I wouldn't do it without a Groupon, either. That's a fortune for some group exercise.
That said, if they're charging $130 per month, I wouldn't do it without a Groupon, either. That's a fortune for some group exercise.
I've actually had this experience: My favorite yoga studio, where I was going 3-4 times per week, did a Groupon; suddenly the room was packed and there was less space to move around in. It would have made sense for the studio to do the Groupon when they'd just opened and desperately needed advertising, but I was baffled by their decision to do the Groupon when they were already running at what, to me, seemed like optimal capacity. They attracted new customers, but they also alienated some old ones. (Though the deal wasn't "New Customers Only," so at least I was able to enjoy the discount.)
OTOH, I moved recently, and a studio near my new place did a Groupon. I probably wouldn't have heard of them otherwise (there are other studios that are closer to me). They did a small deal, something like $15 for a 5-class pass, and they did it at a time of year when they're at less than peak capacity (it's summer and the studio is near MIT). So, I'd say that deal made sense.
(As to $130/mo: Actually, I was happily paying that much at my studio. This studio's pricing seems to be in line with most: $15 for a single class, $130 for an unlimited monthly pass.)
OTOH, I moved recently, and a studio near my new place did a Groupon. I probably wouldn't have heard of them otherwise (there are other studios that are closer to me). They did a small deal, something like $15 for a 5-class pass, and they did it at a time of year when they're at less than peak capacity (it's summer and the studio is near MIT). So, I'd say that deal made sense.
(As to $130/mo: Actually, I was happily paying that much at my studio. This studio's pricing seems to be in line with most: $15 for a single class, $130 for an unlimited monthly pass.)
$130 is a lot of money, but investing in your health is probably the best investment you can make. Some people spend $130 just on coffee every month.
I'm guess I'm spoiled. I'm used to Mission Cliffs in San Francisco, where a ~$65/month membership got you climbing, cardio, weights, along with spin, kickboxing, and yoga classes.
Honestly, though, I do think the fairly standard $15 per session is way, way too much for yoga. $15 per head with a class size of around 20 is $300 for a one hour session. I visited Yoga Tree (I think) in the Castro once, at an even higher price. The 'advantage' was that the studio was fancier, and they had a couple of really poorly trained lackeys running around making 'corrections'. Honestly, the yoga instruction I got at Mission Cliffs was better, and the instructor bothered to get to know me and my personal limitations.
I agree entirely about investing in health, though, particularly for people in sedentary careers.
Honestly, though, I do think the fairly standard $15 per session is way, way too much for yoga. $15 per head with a class size of around 20 is $300 for a one hour session. I visited Yoga Tree (I think) in the Castro once, at an even higher price. The 'advantage' was that the studio was fancier, and they had a couple of really poorly trained lackeys running around making 'corrections'. Honestly, the yoga instruction I got at Mission Cliffs was better, and the instructor bothered to get to know me and my personal limitations.
I agree entirely about investing in health, though, particularly for people in sedentary careers.
I practiced at Yoga Tree Castro for a long time, and found the instruction to be excellent and worth every penny.
Have never been to Mission Cliffs, so I won't claim it's not better still. But my perspective is that any yoga class which is worth my time, my sweat, my hard work, and the trouble of going there, is worth my $15.
And, if you buy the 20-class passes, it comes out at $11 a pop.
Have never been to Mission Cliffs, so I won't claim it's not better still. But my perspective is that any yoga class which is worth my time, my sweat, my hard work, and the trouble of going there, is worth my $15.
And, if you buy the 20-class passes, it comes out at $11 a pop.
I pay $52 per month to a local climbing gym (BRC) in Boulder and get the same thing. I personally wouldn't pay $130 for a yoga membership, but can't fault someone for doing it if that is what keeps them active. So many people in the US have a problem staying active.
It seems like a great application for a Groupon - an up-front investment by the studio can net a long-term customer.
Coffee shops and restaurants seem less suited in comparison; their product is more of a commodity.
Coffee shops and restaurants seem less suited in comparison; their product is more of a commodity.
Her business aside, anyone who joins an organized religion because it's on sale is probably a moron.
Yoga isn't a religion. It is basically just a group stretching class. Some people put various "new age" elements into it, but I don't see how it could be considered a religion. I could be wrong though. I've never been to place where people considered it to be much more than a fitness class. Maybe I've been to the wrong places.
The word yoga literally means 'yoke', in other words basically a connection to god. That's what those stretches are designed to do. It's a form of mysticism, like Kabbalah.
I am an atheist and have never felt a connection to any god while stretching. You may have different experiences, though.
It's a historical fact, it has nothing to do with your experience.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoga
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoga
You may want to try reading the links you post:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoga#Reception_in_the_West
Let me save you the trouble while I'm here:
"...legitimizing yoga as a purely physical system of health exercises outside of counter culture or esotericism circles, and unconnected to a religious denomination."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoga#Reception_in_the_West
Let me save you the trouble while I'm here:
"...legitimizing yoga as a purely physical system of health exercises outside of counter culture or esotericism circles, and unconnected to a religious denomination."
The Red Cross is a religious organization because Jesus - a well-known religious figure - was crucified. On a cross.
You are in the unfortunate position of being factually correct but opposed to how most people view their participation in this activity.
Maybe we could create a business where groups of people throw stones on a leather puppet and say it is good for their arm muscles and trains them in track and field.
Maybe we could create a business where groups of people throw stones on a leather puppet and say it is good for their arm muscles and trains them in track and field.
Tons of things in our society came from a religious background and were liberated from it. Galileo studied the stars and argued against the Pope to become closer to God, that doesn't mean astronomy is mysticism.
For people who sit at a desk all day, like most people here I would imagine, doing even just one hour of yoga a week can have a huge influence on their physical well-being (not to mention posture). Doesn't need to be more than that.
For people who sit at a desk all day, like most people here I would imagine, doing even just one hour of yoga a week can have a huge influence on their physical well-being (not to mention posture). Doesn't need to be more than that.
Galileo was interested in understanding the mind of god. That's different than mysticism.
All science is religious in that sense, but not all science is mysticism.
All science is religious in that sense, but not all science is mysticism.
Why are people marking him down for making a factually accurate statement?
Yoga is a form of Hindu mysticism which was practiced by Hindu ascetics as a form of religous penance or as part of their meditations.
Yoga came to the West as a form of mysticism, largely due in part to the influence of the Beatles and the Hippie movement of the 70s.
While yoga in the West has largely been divorced from its spiritual aspects, many American Yoga classes still incorporate them, even those taught by non-Hindus.
Yoga is a form of Hindu mysticism which was practiced by Hindu ascetics as a form of religous penance or as part of their meditations.
Yoga came to the West as a form of mysticism, largely due in part to the influence of the Beatles and the Hippie movement of the 70s.
While yoga in the West has largely been divorced from its spiritual aspects, many American Yoga classes still incorporate them, even those taught by non-Hindus.
You made my day!!
Alex3917 you are now permanently listed under the birfer/truther/tin-foil-hatter category in my book!
You, Sir, are simply HILARIOUS!
Alex3917 you are now permanently listed under the birfer/truther/tin-foil-hatter category in my book!
You, Sir, are simply HILARIOUS!
I really object to that. Alex3917 is one of the most well-informed commenters on here. That he takes unpopular and unconventional positions is cause for admiration, not rude ridicule.
As for the point about yoga, it hardly seems odd to suggest that a system that's been around for thousands of years might retain some connection to its origins.
As for the point about yoga, it hardly seems odd to suggest that a system that's been around for thousands of years might retain some connection to its origins.
Hm.
I agree with you about the comment you replied to. That comment is so bad I flagged it. So the idea that anyone would downmod you for calling it out is dispiriting.
But, much as I like 'Alex3917, I downmodded his yoga comment. I thought it was so reductionist that it sucked all the oxygen out of the room.
I agree with you about the comment you replied to. That comment is so bad I flagged it. So the idea that anyone would downmod you for calling it out is dispiriting.
But, much as I like 'Alex3917, I downmodded his yoga comment. I thought it was so reductionist that it sucked all the oxygen out of the room.
Well now I feel guilty for communicating in abrasive shortcuts myself.
"Reductionist" is probably fair. Alex can be a bit of a bombthrower, and not always in a helpful way. For me the line is drawn somewhere between http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2932298 (unhelpful because indiscriminate and judgmental - and yes, reductionist. Nobody is a moron.) and http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2932421 (provocative but informed). I'm guessing the line draws itself a little differently for you.
Sadly, the interesting question (what if anything is the religious significance of yoga in the modern West?) probably falls in the large category of stuff that is impossible to discuss online. It always appears possible, but immediately degenerates into binary twiddling where everyone takes their own pre-existing bitmask, ANDs it with what they perceive the competing bitmasks to be, and emits signals of "yes/like" and "no/dislike" that vary only in intensity. The informational content of this process is low. It's like addictive food that lacks nutrition.
I have a theory as to why this is. High-value discourse -- in which people experience their overlapping divergences as something other than a binary opposition and come away from the encounter slightly transformed, which is a deeply human and satisfying experience -- requires rapport, and rapport is a somatic phenomenon. It mostly occurs when people are both personally acquainted and physically nearby. Online discussions, which have neither, are therefore inhospitable. We end up with a lot of verbiage that is cognitively sophisticated but emotionally/limbically primitive. I wonder if auxiliary in-person meetups of online communities will continue to grow as a way to mitigate this. In any case we should look for a way to increase the likelihood of rapport. I don't mean to try to bring it about (that would be awful) but to ask what conditions increase the probability of it occurring spontaneously.
(Normally I'd edit this down but I'm late for brunch at my sister's house, so you get the overwrought version!)
"Reductionist" is probably fair. Alex can be a bit of a bombthrower, and not always in a helpful way. For me the line is drawn somewhere between http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2932298 (unhelpful because indiscriminate and judgmental - and yes, reductionist. Nobody is a moron.) and http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2932421 (provocative but informed). I'm guessing the line draws itself a little differently for you.
Sadly, the interesting question (what if anything is the religious significance of yoga in the modern West?) probably falls in the large category of stuff that is impossible to discuss online. It always appears possible, but immediately degenerates into binary twiddling where everyone takes their own pre-existing bitmask, ANDs it with what they perceive the competing bitmasks to be, and emits signals of "yes/like" and "no/dislike" that vary only in intensity. The informational content of this process is low. It's like addictive food that lacks nutrition.
I have a theory as to why this is. High-value discourse -- in which people experience their overlapping divergences as something other than a binary opposition and come away from the encounter slightly transformed, which is a deeply human and satisfying experience -- requires rapport, and rapport is a somatic phenomenon. It mostly occurs when people are both personally acquainted and physically nearby. Online discussions, which have neither, are therefore inhospitable. We end up with a lot of verbiage that is cognitively sophisticated but emotionally/limbically primitive. I wonder if auxiliary in-person meetups of online communities will continue to grow as a way to mitigate this. In any case we should look for a way to increase the likelihood of rapport. I don't mean to try to bring it about (that would be awful) but to ask what conditions increase the probability of it occurring spontaneously.
(Normally I'd edit this down but I'm late for brunch at my sister's house, so you get the overwrought version!)
We don't write comments like this here.
I am sorry to hear that, but perhaps you could set an example and explain what was so wrong, instead of merely flagging/down-modding.
From my point of view, my comment was of the same tone and direction as the immediate parent. Snarky, insulting and full of (in my opinion - well deserved) ridicule.
(EDIT: I appreciate the fact that any forum (HN) would benefit from keeping snark, insults and stupid fights to a minimum and in that spirit my reply was in the wrong direction. In future, I'll try to cultivate a less confrontational and/or snarky tone and be more patient than I was here.)
Having said that, I am a firm believer in the dictum of "you cannot please everyone, all of the time", but I would love to hear the basis for you taking such strong offense to my comment alone.
From my point of view, my comment was of the same tone and direction as the immediate parent. Snarky, insulting and full of (in my opinion - well deserved) ridicule.
(EDIT: I appreciate the fact that any forum (HN) would benefit from keeping snark, insults and stupid fights to a minimum and in that spirit my reply was in the wrong direction. In future, I'll try to cultivate a less confrontational and/or snarky tone and be more patient than I was here.)
Having said that, I am a firm believer in the dictum of "you cannot please everyone, all of the time", but I would love to hear the basis for you taking such strong offense to my comment alone.
Civility is not optional on HN. When you call someone names, you are being uncivil. Stop calling people names.
And, if the entire point of your comment is to inform everyone else on HN that you think another HN user is unworthy of our attention, you should rethink posting the comment at all. Comments of that sort are generally unwelcome.
And, if the entire point of your comment is to inform everyone else on HN that you think another HN user is unworthy of our attention, you should rethink posting the comment at all. Comments of that sort are generally unwelcome.
That is an excellent point indeed and I agree wholeheartedly with it. Civility is essential to productive discussion anywhere. Just because I found Alex3917's comment utterly ignorant and offensive does not justify my response in the same vein. Period.
if the entire point of your comment is to inform everyone else on HN that you think another HN user is unworthy of our attention, you should rethink posting the comment at all
Thank you for putting my feelings into words. I wish I could have just silently down-voted what I found so offensive instead of flaming out and coming across as being uncivil, but then again, that is a privilege not yet afforded to me on HN.
Clearly, a silent down-vote conveys much more than a thoughtless reply here.
What I do find confounding is the pile-up on my comments, instead of any voice raised (or down-votes) to the comment that started it all!
Is the messenger's tone more important than the message to folks on HN?
if the entire point of your comment is to inform everyone else on HN that you think another HN user is unworthy of our attention, you should rethink posting the comment at all
Thank you for putting my feelings into words. I wish I could have just silently down-voted what I found so offensive instead of flaming out and coming across as being uncivil, but then again, that is a privilege not yet afforded to me on HN.
Clearly, a silent down-vote conveys much more than a thoughtless reply here.
What I do find confounding is the pile-up on my comments, instead of any voice raised (or down-votes) to the comment that started it all!
Is the messenger's tone more important than the message to folks on HN?
Yes.
The "message" in this case is a totally pointless and off-topic digression about the liturgical significance of yoga.
The meta-message we are engaged in is "how shall I conduct myself on HN to best support the norms of the community".
Because one hopes you'll be contributing to discussions far more relevant and important than yoga, it's worth taking the time to explain how to better calibrate your tone.
The "message" in this case is a totally pointless and off-topic digression about the liturgical significance of yoga.
The meta-message we are engaged in is "how shall I conduct myself on HN to best support the norms of the community".
Because one hopes you'll be contributing to discussions far more relevant and important than yoga, it's worth taking the time to explain how to better calibrate your tone.
Thanks for clarifying that. I sincerely appreciate your time and attention.
However, I am totally confounded by (what appears to me as) the groupthink downvoting going on even now!
(that too on my comments that have nothing to do with this thread!!)
So how do you (or pg) make sure that silent downvoting is applied justifiably and not just a vindictive or punitive action resulting from superficial disagreement? Or is this a non-issue on HN?
And more importantly, are you aware/concerned that such actions (of maybe a few) may make newcomers (like me) see HN as unfriendly at best and nearly tyrannical at worst.
(Needless to say, I should have been civil to begin with, but now this reply is on wholly another point.)
However, I am totally confounded by (what appears to me as) the groupthink downvoting going on even now!
(that too on my comments that have nothing to do with this thread!!)
So how do you (or pg) make sure that silent downvoting is applied justifiably and not just a vindictive or punitive action resulting from superficial disagreement? Or is this a non-issue on HN?
And more importantly, are you aware/concerned that such actions (of maybe a few) may make newcomers (like me) see HN as unfriendly at best and nearly tyrannical at worst.
(Needless to say, I should have been civil to begin with, but now this reply is on wholly another point.)
Yoga has a spiritual aspect but you're not paying a yoga instructor for spiritual guidance. You're paying to use their space, to be taught the sequence of postures, and to receive adjustments to better achieve the postures. Yoga teachers do not typically promote themselves as spiritual leaders, nor Yoga as a religion.
Some Yoga schools are more spiritually-oriented than others, but I assure you that the vast majority of people who go to Yoga classes do so for the health benefits alone.
Some Yoga schools are more spiritually-oriented than others, but I assure you that the vast majority of people who go to Yoga classes do so for the health benefits alone.
"I assure you that the vast majority of people who go to Yoga classes do so for the health benefits alone."
I guess I have a lot of trouble wrapping my head around Yoga as a secular activity. Even most if people are just doing it as a workout, it seems like part of what draws people to it is that it gives them some vague feeling of connection with something in the collective unconscious, even if they never explicitly explore its history or its role as a spiritual tool. And even just that in and of itself seems to provide some spiritual benefit.
I have no doubt that people basically just want the benefits of some thousand year old tradition, but packaged in a way that reinforces their preexisting worldview. Which strikes me as absurd, but at least I can kind of understand it. But even still, I think the fact that it's something that people have been doing for thousands of years has to inherently change people's posture, no pun intended.
I guess I have a lot of trouble wrapping my head around Yoga as a secular activity. Even most if people are just doing it as a workout, it seems like part of what draws people to it is that it gives them some vague feeling of connection with something in the collective unconscious, even if they never explicitly explore its history or its role as a spiritual tool. And even just that in and of itself seems to provide some spiritual benefit.
I have no doubt that people basically just want the benefits of some thousand year old tradition, but packaged in a way that reinforces their preexisting worldview. Which strikes me as absurd, but at least I can kind of understand it. But even still, I think the fact that it's something that people have been doing for thousands of years has to inherently change people's posture, no pun intended.
What leads you to these conclusions?
I am curious because you have some very definite opinions about it, and they are quite different to what I have observed in my Yoga practise.
I am curious because you have some very definite opinions about it, and they are quite different to what I have observed in my Yoga practise.
I guess everything I know about Yoga comes from (academically) studying Hinduism, plus watching movies like Enlighten Up or whatever. Every time I hear people talk about it it's usually in the same breath as meditation, or else they're talking about opening up their Chakras or whatever.
I've never actually done Yoga but I generally have really wonky interests, so that's generally my bias.
I've never actually done Yoga but I generally have really wonky interests, so that's generally my bias.
Like I said, there are some "new age" elements but most it isn't like that. Also, if you go through life avoiding everything that annoys you, you will probably miss out on a lot. Sure, I've heard people talk about "chakras" (rarely), but I just ignore it.
Unlike yoga, the Salvation Army is actually a religion. Do you avoid shopping there or donating there just because of that? Do you shop in vintage stores in NYC? Where do you think they get their stuff?
Unlike yoga, the Salvation Army is actually a religion. Do you avoid shopping there or donating there just because of that? Do you shop in vintage stores in NYC? Where do you think they get their stuff?
Actually, if I were to ever take up Yoga, it would be for its purported spiritual development benefits. IMHO if it's not opening up your chakras then either you're not getting the full benefits, or else it's bunk to begin with. (If I wanted exercise, I'd just hop on the rowing machine.)
But yes, I do avoid the salvation army because of their politics.
But yes, I do avoid the salvation army because of their politics.
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