Google's Android Market is crippling small development teams
21 comments
Regarding #1, it's a pain when the stats break, and I agree it needs to be more robust and accurate, but it has no effect on your rankings what so ever.
This is the problem with only having one source of apps on the android market. Sure there is amazon, but google won't allow users to install this without jumping through hoops. Even though Apple isn't much better, at least their app store treats developers fair (that is if you can get your app through the censorship board)
Google needs to step up their game, or it will stop attracting quality developers. There is so much crap on the market in the form of malicious apps and low quality 1 day development duplicates. Without the quality teams/companies contributing to the app market, Google will dig the android grave.
Google needs to step up their game, or it will stop attracting quality developers. There is so much crap on the market in the form of malicious apps and low quality 1 day development duplicates. Without the quality teams/companies contributing to the app market, Google will dig the android grave.
google won't allow users to install this without jumping through hoops.
Well, one hoop. Settings -> Applications, click the "Unknown sources" box. I think this just disables signature checking on .apk's or something.
Well, one hoop. Settings -> Applications, click the "Unknown sources" box. I think this just disables signature checking on .apk's or something.
Also the requirement the user interact with a system dialog for every application installation.
This isn't MUCH different from what market was not that long ago, but now that Google's market does seamless background updates, Amazon's at a bit of a disadvantage. Even updates require the user interact with the system dialog.
It's a small thing, but it does make a difference.
I expect Amazon to "fix" that with their phones coming out, since they will control the firmware. I'm actually surprised they haven't worked with ROM developers to get their market app trusted by the aftermarket ROMs, too.
This isn't MUCH different from what market was not that long ago, but now that Google's market does seamless background updates, Amazon's at a bit of a disadvantage. Even updates require the user interact with the system dialog.
It's a small thing, but it does make a difference.
I expect Amazon to "fix" that with their phones coming out, since they will control the firmware. I'm actually surprised they haven't worked with ROM developers to get their market app trusted by the aftermarket ROMs, too.
I think this is why there is such a huge opportunity for Amazon - they are the best in the world at selling stuff, and if they can leverage that experience with apps (reviews, search, recommendations, etc), the whole interaction of buying and selling apps will be a lot better.
I think it's true that there is a huge opportunity for someone like Amazon here.
However, I rather disagree that Amazon will ever provide a panacea. The Amazon market currently poses its own problems to app sellers. Once your app is on their market, you do not control it. Amazon sets the price, Amazon sets the description and classification. If Amazon hires some marketing copy-writer to write your app's description and that person doesn't know anything about your app, guess who gets to deal with angry customers who didn't get what they were expecting? It won't be Amazon.
Amazon has had some technical hangups that be explained by 'early product bugs'. While I expect such problems to be eventually ironed out by better QA and development processes, my understanding is that they have not yet been ironed out.
Finally, the Amazon market is tiny compared to Google's. If I told you that putting your software on Amazon's market would net you 5% of the sales you get on Google's, but you'd spend just as much time fighting through problems in the market itself, would you jump on that opportunity? I probably would not.
However, I rather disagree that Amazon will ever provide a panacea. The Amazon market currently poses its own problems to app sellers. Once your app is on their market, you do not control it. Amazon sets the price, Amazon sets the description and classification. If Amazon hires some marketing copy-writer to write your app's description and that person doesn't know anything about your app, guess who gets to deal with angry customers who didn't get what they were expecting? It won't be Amazon.
Amazon has had some technical hangups that be explained by 'early product bugs'. While I expect such problems to be eventually ironed out by better QA and development processes, my understanding is that they have not yet been ironed out.
Finally, the Amazon market is tiny compared to Google's. If I told you that putting your software on Amazon's market would net you 5% of the sales you get on Google's, but you'd spend just as much time fighting through problems in the market itself, would you jump on that opportunity? I probably would not.
You hit the nail in the head with Amazon Appstore app description issue. Our app has had (and still has) that problem. Our content has been written by Amazon, but we have no control over it. In the meantime, our app (and even our business model) has evolved but the description is still the old description. As a result we get emails from confused users.
What does "However, now when searching in our application category, we are result #227." mean? When listing top paid apps in shopping, you are second, and in top free you are on the first page. https://market.android.com/apps/SHOPPING
https://market.android.com/search?q=shopping+list&c=apps...
(That is a link to the 12th page of results)
Look at the applications that are ranking in front of us. As for how we show up in the category view, it bounces around - alot.
(That is a link to the 12th page of results)
Look at the applications that are ranking in front of us. As for how we show up in the category view, it bounces around - alot.
Great news!!! You're on page 11 now: https://market.android.com/search?q=shopping+list&c=apps...
When sorting by Popularity you're #9 at the moment...
You say that #2 is the big killer for you. This also significantly hurts Google, so presumably it will be fixed. Of course, it's a higher priority for you than it is for them.
But #4 is baked into the Google culture and is very unlikely to change.
But #4 is baked into the Google culture and is very unlikely to change.
#4 is baked into all their products. As an enterprise user of Google Apps (paid), we're lucky to get a response to our support issues in a timely manner, if at all. One of the big reasons 80% of our organisation uses Exchange, even though we hate it.
Agreed on #4.
On #2 I've always found it crazy that Android market is an also ran in app search and discoverability -- Apple has not set the bar very high and that's supposed to be Google's forte anyway.
On #2 I've always found it crazy that Android market is an also ran in app search and discoverability -- Apple has not set the bar very high and that's supposed to be Google's forte anyway.
I'm not surprised. Gmail for quite some time couldn't find emails like this when you searched for "bank":
Hey Steko,
I'm going to the bank.
ErikIt's even worse than that: a search for "doc" does not return results that contain "document".
Gmail is great, but it's search is appalling, and it's even worse that it's coming from Google.
Gmail is great, but it's search is appalling, and it's even worse that it's coming from Google.
Google is already trying to increase the share of paid apps in Android market place as it still does not come close to Apple's app store. If they don't concentrate on quality developers, they will find it even more difficult to do so.
One thing I've noticed is that paid apps are ranking higher than free apps in searches. That's all great, but sometimes the paid apps are really the crappiest. They really need to find a balance between paid apps, quality and the free apps. It looks bad on the Android Market when someone searches for something and what they get are crappy/ugly apps (which there's quite a lot of on the Android Market).
You trying to get blood from a stone here. Google cares for your problems in only the most indirect of manners, so bitching is not really going to help. It is the reality, you are going to have to deal with it. But the thing is, it is a fairly level playing field. Everyone else in the store is dealing with the same thing, more or less. So work with it, not against it. Look for conversions that come from things other than search. Throw a (Shopping List) at the end of your name since that seems to be the main factor in search.
My bigger question is how is a $5 app that #2 in its category for paid apps struggling to be profitable (especially since I believe the top paid list are counted by installs)? All of your complaints seem to be about competing with other apps, but you seem to be mostly winning that competition. Are Android app sales so low that #2 in its category app is unprofitable?
My bigger question is how is a $5 app that #2 in its category for paid apps struggling to be profitable (especially since I believe the top paid list are counted by installs)? All of your complaints seem to be about competing with other apps, but you seem to be mostly winning that competition. Are Android app sales so low that #2 in its category app is unprofitable?
The difference is that our Unlocker is #2 in the paid category, but our main application is basically off the charts. Almost all of our sales come from the free application -> Users who use Out of Milk and then decide to go Pro.
As for the first part of your reply, trust me, I completely agree. We have done nothing for the past week except tweak our market text, change our name to various things, and so forth to figure out how to work with the new system. We are not just watching it idly and going "OH WOE IS ME!".
The problem is that it is not a level playing field. Extremely popular apps, not just ours, are appearing hundreds of results away while other extremely popular applications are staying right up in the front. It really seems kind of random. Why are some extremely popular apps in the first results, then hundreds of crappy / average apps, then more exceptional applications? It doesn't make a lot of sense.
My post is a bit of a rant, I admit, but it is also meant to be informative so that other developers can see what it means to play in the market.
As for the first part of your reply, trust me, I completely agree. We have done nothing for the past week except tweak our market text, change our name to various things, and so forth to figure out how to work with the new system. We are not just watching it idly and going "OH WOE IS ME!".
The problem is that it is not a level playing field. Extremely popular apps, not just ours, are appearing hundreds of results away while other extremely popular applications are staying right up in the front. It really seems kind of random. Why are some extremely popular apps in the first results, then hundreds of crappy / average apps, then more exceptional applications? It doesn't make a lot of sense.
My post is a bit of a rant, I admit, but it is also meant to be informative so that other developers can see what it means to play in the market.
i can totally understand this...we were getting 1000's of downloads a day down to 100 or so.
for an exact search on our app we were 50 out of 50 with the other results being totally unrelated.
it seems as of yesterday they sort of fixed the problem and were ranking first for our terms. have u seen any improvement?
the last 2 weeks have been stressfull!!
for an exact search on our app we were 50 out of 50 with the other results being totally unrelated.
it seems as of yesterday they sort of fixed the problem and were ranking first for our terms. have u seen any improvement?
the last 2 weeks have been stressfull!!
This has caused our purchases to fall from doing very well to almost getting no purchases at all.
I think you missed this line. Presumably they were doing quite well for themselves, got nailed by some change Google made, and now are not recouping any costs due to all the lost sales.
Sadly, bryanlarsen is correct about Google's culture, especially when it comes to the code they've written: the search code is doing what we told it to and there won't be any reconsideration of decisions made about code.
I think you missed this line. Presumably they were doing quite well for themselves, got nailed by some change Google made, and now are not recouping any costs due to all the lost sales.
Sadly, bryanlarsen is correct about Google's culture, especially when it comes to the code they've written: the search code is doing what we told it to and there won't be any reconsideration of decisions made about code.
Yeah, it is probably only a SEO issue. Study why other apps are showing first. Adding shopping list in the end of the name and in the description of the app will probably fix it.
it's ridiculous that the SEO crap has been brought to these app markets and that developers have to worry about this, especially in system that is completely controlled by google. "shopping list" is in the app's description and it's a highly reviewed application with lots of downloads.
google has access to more valuable data here than they do with web searches. if the majority of users search for "shopping list" and end up installing 5 different apps, which do they usually keep installed? rank that one higher for future searches. you can't fake the number of app installs like spammers can gain junk inbound links for pagerank.
google has access to more valuable data here than they do with web searches. if the majority of users search for "shopping list" and end up installing 5 different apps, which do they usually keep installed? rank that one higher for future searches. you can't fake the number of app installs like spammers can gain junk inbound links for pagerank.
not a seo issue at all.
the algorithm was totally broken. luckily for most of us they started fixing it yesterday and today.
the algorithm was totally broken. luckily for most of us they started fixing it yesterday and today.
Swap to iOS. People pay for things there and there are developer support people you can talk to.
Swap to Win7Phone. You may be the only person in your category still. The developer outreach is hilariously good (Shout out to Atlanta's Glenn Gordon [Microsoft] for treating the community right).
Swap to Win7Phone. You may be the only person in your category still. The developer outreach is hilariously good (Shout out to Atlanta's Glenn Gordon [Microsoft] for treating the community right).
Second the shout out to Glenn Gordon, he's great and put Win7Phone on the (road)map for us.
I give the man an incredibly difficult time for some of MS's missteps with the platform, but he handles it all with aplomb. But he himself: Good stuff.
It actually looks like I've mispelled his name:
https://twitter.com/#!/glengordon
Glen Gordon.
It actually looks like I've mispelled his name:
https://twitter.com/#!/glengordon
Glen Gordon.
Everything you've pointed out are sort of known issues with the google market. Instead of complaining switch to Apple store and see if you do any better. To me this is almost a trolling rant, to ignite the Apple vs Android debate and possibly a marketing ploy. Theres been plenty of posts about successes in the Android market. I actually think you've done quite well on the Android Market.
Release your game on the Apple market and let us know how well you do trying to get traction or downloads there.
>We looked at the apps currently available on Google's Market and realized that there is a lack of quality applications with dedicated developers.
This is completely untrue, and stop spreading this FUD. Most developers support both platforms and there are plenty of high quality applications.
*edited to address rant of high quality apps.
Release your game on the Apple market and let us know how well you do trying to get traction or downloads there.
>We looked at the apps currently available on Google's Market and realized that there is a lack of quality applications with dedicated developers.
This is completely untrue, and stop spreading this FUD. Most developers support both platforms and there are plenty of high quality applications.
*edited to address rant of high quality apps.
You clearly did not read the posting you're commenting on. Nowhere does he say he made a game. Nowhere does he say he's never tried to find his own solutions. Nowhere does he say he hasn't done well. In fact he stated the opposite. He is no longer doing well because Google broke their own shit and don't seem to be in any particular hurry to address it. In case you missed it: Out of Milk went from doing extremely well to dead in the water almost overnight. We are working as hard we can to try and figure out solutions from our own end, but Google is the guy driving this bus and we can only do so much on our own.
Google's market problems aren't app developers responsibility to overcome just because they are 'sort of known'.
Google's market problems aren't app developers responsibility to overcome just because they are 'sort of known'.
"Google's market problems aren't app developers responsibility to overcome just because they are 'sort of known'."
Ummm yes they are. When apple changes their policy for subscription, you either quit or adjust.. When twitter says no in stream ads to an ad company like ad.ly, they either quit or adjust, when facebook says no to an app that notifies users of changing relationship , you either quite or adjust... etc, etc.
Ummm yes they are. When apple changes their policy for subscription, you either quit or adjust.. When twitter says no in stream ads to an ad company like ad.ly, they either quit or adjust, when facebook says no to an app that notifies users of changing relationship , you either quite or adjust... etc, etc.
Seems you don't develop for Android or you'll know google messed up the search algorithm and after a lot of complaints from developers and users who couldn't find apps, google started fixing things...
Well I do, but my business is not reliant on being in the top google search results. I have nothing to brag about, or complain about, as like I've stated, everything he's said has been addressed prior.
Well it seems you're mixing things up. Having a change in policy has nothing to do with bugs on the way the market performs.
One thing is a shift in direction from Google and another is bugs that prevents developers and users from finding apps.
On a other post you talk about marketing as if would make any difference. There's a lot of developers complaining users couldn't find their apps after they were told to look for them on the market. How would a marketing campaign solve this problem?
It's Google's duty to provide developers and users with a reliable market experience.
One thing is a shift in direction from Google and another is bugs that prevents developers and users from finding apps.
On a other post you talk about marketing as if would make any difference. There's a lot of developers complaining users couldn't find their apps after they were told to look for them on the market. How would a marketing campaign solve this problem?
It's Google's duty to provide developers and users with a reliable market experience.
I've been trying to be constructive and help you guys, but clearly you just wanted to come here and complain. You guy should just give up, because google won't fix their customer service and won't fix your search rankings and probably in general won't do anything to help you. The next think you should try is making another app on either market and complain about all the deficiencies of either market instead of focusing on figuring out how to get over limitations and being successful
You guy should just give up, because google won't fix their customer service and won't fix your search rankings and probably in general won't do anything to help you.
I disagree, if it weren't for the complains of developers and users google wouldn't fix the search algorithm like it's doing right now. If we developers didn't complain about issues with the Developer Console things would have been much worse than it is now...
If something isn't right we have the obligation to speak and not just accept it like it's a done deal and we can't do anything about it...
I disagree, if it weren't for the complains of developers and users google wouldn't fix the search algorithm like it's doing right now. If we developers didn't complain about issues with the Developer Console things would have been much worse than it is now...
If something isn't right we have the obligation to speak and not just accept it like it's a done deal and we can't do anything about it...
they are actually fixing the search algortithm due to the massive complaints they have gotten recently.
especially in the support forums. hes just stating the truth. i know because im experiencing the exact same thing.
especially in the support forums. hes just stating the truth. i know because im experiencing the exact same thing.
It's not a game, it's a todo/shopping list that cost $5. It won't fair well on the Apple App Store as there are already 100's if not 1000's of those apps, many of which have been polished to a mirror finish.
> Release your game on the Apple market and let us know how well you do trying to get traction or downloads there.
Considering it's a shopping/todo list and the apple store is already filled to the brim with high quality software in that space (it's always been one of the most crowded spaces in the store), unless they have something very, very compelling to offer I can't see it do much.
Considering it's a shopping/todo list and the apple store is already filled to the brim with high quality software in that space (it's always been one of the most crowded spaces in the store), unless they have something very, very compelling to offer I can't see it do much.
Things are pretty different in regards to application quality right now and when we released the first version of our application. Just wanted to share that.
Have you considered going through android market/developer relations instead of general support?
If you google enough times you will find names and email and position titles(ie what areas of developer relations they handle) In fact there is a specific page listing all this stuff even..
If you google enough times you will find names and email and position titles(ie what areas of developer relations they handle) In fact there is a specific page listing all this stuff even..
a good thing ive found because im facing the same issues is google and find memebers on the android team on google+/quora?twitter and let them know firsthand the problems
this has seem to work for me and escalates the prob very fast! :)
this has seem to work for me and escalates the prob very fast! :)
Are you doing a reddit style performance based on your username? If so it is not funny or appropriate, if not I don't get why you're so aggressive and accusatory with your reply.
My only point is he is blaming google for everyone of his own failures. Rather than blaming google, do something productive about it. A lot of these issues have been known issues and if he did any sort of diligence would be fully aware of these by now. As I pointed out there are plenty of successes on the Google Market, and a lot of developers on doing very well on the Market itself.
I welcome his advice for other developers to wait, that means more opportunity for developers that do want to develop on the Android marketplace.
I welcome his advice for other developers to wait, that means more opportunity for developers that do want to develop on the Android marketplace.
Your point makes no sense. How is the fact that Google has horrible support his fault? How is the fact that Google isn't updating the stats his fault? How is the fact that Google changed the search algorithm his fault?
> "A lot of these issues have been known issues and if he did any sort of diligence would be fully aware of these by now"
Oh, so these are known issues now and not "his fault." Becoming "aware" of these issues doesn't make them magically go away. This issues are still on-going despite what Google's Known Issues page says. Whatever argument you are trying to make here you're doing a horrible job at it.
> "A lot of these issues have been known issues and if he did any sort of diligence would be fully aware of these by now"
Oh, so these are known issues now and not "his fault." Becoming "aware" of these issues doesn't make them magically go away. This issues are still on-going despite what Google's Known Issues page says. Whatever argument you are trying to make here you're doing a horrible job at it.
no need to be argumentative, but again.. no one is telling you guys to develop for the Android Market, go do apps on the Apple market if all these things are so troublesome for your team. I imagine you can do search and see all these issues in the past, and rather ranting figure out how to work around it, theres actually been a lot of good suggestion in this thread, and I can see you continue to place the blame on Google. So what it is their fault.. they won't fix .. now do something about it. Believe me theres plenty of opportunity on the Android market for good apps.
Second, working on any platform changes occur all the time.. example: Twitter and Facebook developers get screwed all the time, Apple just changed their subscription policy, Google changed their regular search algorithm to take down content farms.. Yes companies change their policies constantly its up to the developers to adjust or quit.
Second, working on any platform changes occur all the time.. example: Twitter and Facebook developers get screwed all the time, Apple just changed their subscription policy, Google changed their regular search algorithm to take down content farms.. Yes companies change their policies constantly its up to the developers to adjust or quit.
Google changed their regular search algorithm to take down content farms
How is changing the algorithm so low quality apps are always first on the results taking down content farms? Sorry but you don't know what you're talking about....
How is changing the algorithm so low quality apps are always first on the results taking down content farms? Sorry but you don't know what you're talking about....
the point is if you develop and depend on a particular platform you are at the mercy of the platform owner. You either make changes and figure out how to get around it, like how about less reliance on google's search and go out and do some other marketing.
He was probably talking about the quality of shopping list apps when they were surveying the various market places. Its not necessarily an indication of the situation now.
well from what I can see his first review is in February of this year.
[deleted]
A brief look at the market shows that you have competitors. At the least, OI Shopping list appears to have a lot of downloads as well. Your app does show up in the side bar, and in the top free category.
This doesn't sound like a market problem so much as a business model issue. If one of the free apps does what people need, they won't pay for a $5.00 version, even if it's slightly prettier. Hell, a quick look at the Apple app store lists apps that range from free to $3.00. I'd suggest changing your business model.
Try in-app ads with a lower cost ad-free version (say $1). Or add features that are both extremely useful and hard to duplicate for a competitor that is working for free. Some ideas: GPS proximity alarm when passing a grocery store, or a tie in to a desktop client or website.
This doesn't sound like a market problem so much as a business model issue. If one of the free apps does what people need, they won't pay for a $5.00 version, even if it's slightly prettier. Hell, a quick look at the Apple app store lists apps that range from free to $3.00. I'd suggest changing your business model.
Try in-app ads with a lower cost ad-free version (say $1). Or add features that are both extremely useful and hard to duplicate for a competitor that is working for free. Some ideas: GPS proximity alarm when passing a grocery store, or a tie in to a desktop client or website.
Off topic?
You completely missed the point.
He's not complaining about his business model, free competitors, or price.
He's venting his frustration with dealing with the Android Market as a developer:
1) Stats seem to keep breaking which seem to affect visibility and rank of his app.
2) Search is a problem. He went from top 10 to 200+ and with no understanding as to why that would happen - and so abruptly.
3) The comments system on Android is a mess. (sorted strangely, randomly?)
4) Google has a serious lack of good support for its developers.
I'd like to add:
5) There needs to be more game categories.
6) We want to be able to reply to comments in order to support our customers.
You completely missed the point.
He's not complaining about his business model, free competitors, or price.
He's venting his frustration with dealing with the Android Market as a developer:
1) Stats seem to keep breaking which seem to affect visibility and rank of his app.
2) Search is a problem. He went from top 10 to 200+ and with no understanding as to why that would happen - and so abruptly.
3) The comments system on Android is a mess. (sorted strangely, randomly?)
4) Google has a serious lack of good support for its developers.
I'd like to add:
5) There needs to be more game categories.
6) We want to be able to reply to comments in order to support our customers.
I understood those complaints and I'm not disagreeing with them. However, I don't necessarily agree that these issues are solely responsible for his lack of profits as he seems to be implying.
[deleted]
as an android developer myself...hes hit every point on!! im experiencing the exact same problems...its crazy!!
I won't pay for an application with Ads period.
You mean to say you won't pay for an ad-free version of an application for which the free version contains ads? That seems rather strange.
I think he meant that developers should provide a paid, ad-free version and/or a free, ad-supported version. An ad-supported version that also costs money (even if it's less money) kinda sucks.
Ah. The former model is what I suggested in my original post. I must have worded it poorly. I too, will not use ad-supported apps beyond testing functionality. It drives me crazy when there is no paid ad-free version.
Read what I was replying to: "Try in-app ads with a lower cost ad-free version (say $1). Or add features that are both extremely useful and hard to duplicate for a competitor that is working for free. Some ideas: GPS proximity alarm when passing a grocery store, or a tie in to a desktop client or website."
it seems like none of the things you mention are unique to "small development teams"
Not only that, the whole thing reads like "hey, would-be-Android developers, please stay away from Android as I can't take the competition".
As for #2, if I were you I would change the application name in the Android Store to "Out of Milk Shopping List", if you really believe search results matter.
I mean, have you noted that almost all the applications that rank in front of you have either "shopping list", "shopping" or "list" in their titles? I bet search gives more relevance to titles than to categories/descriptions, and you are getting bitten by this. Note that "Mighty Grocery Shopping List" which is the first paid app on the shopping category ranks on the first page when searching for "shopping list".
I mean, have you noted that almost all the applications that rank in front of you have either "shopping list", "shopping" or "list" in their titles? I bet search gives more relevance to titles than to categories/descriptions, and you are getting bitten by this. Note that "Mighty Grocery Shopping List" which is the first paid app on the shopping category ranks on the first page when searching for "shopping list".
The worst part is, not only are you right on the money, but you're top #4 are not everyone's top 4, and this is only the tip of the iceberg.
For ME, I want 2 things, and have been BEGGING Google for them for a year now.
1) Let me reply to comments so I can SUPPORT my customers.
2) More game categories. If there were more categories my apps in Sports would not be LOSING to chess and penguin games.
For ME, I want 2 things, and have been BEGGING Google for them for a year now.
1) Let me reply to comments so I can SUPPORT my customers.
2) More game categories. If there were more categories my apps in Sports would not be LOSING to chess and penguin games.
> Let me reply to comments so I can SUPPORT my customers.
Similarly, a bug reporter/tracker in Market might discourage people from posting negative reviews to report a bug.
Similarly, a bug reporter/tracker in Market might discourage people from posting negative reviews to report a bug.
About #2: Isn't this similar to complaining your website isn't ranked in the first page for a keyword in Google? Yes, it's unfair, but if you're basing your entire business on whether Google is giving you exposure, isn't that a flaw in your business? Perhaps you need to find other venues to market your product. Again, I'm just addressing #2. The other points are valid...
There are alternative frontends to the Google market, such as AppBrain, of which I'm one of the co-founders.
Exactly due to the problems you describe, we have been able to get a loyal following of both users and developers, for whom we develop better tools to browse through the Android market.
Your app is actually listed #10 in our all-time popular shopping charts: http://www.appbrain.com/apps/popular/shopping/
You might also be interested in our developer stats, which also update daily: http://www.appbrain.com/info/developer-dashboard
Any suggestions of what you'd like to see more (if it's available for us to engineer) are welcome!
You might also be interested in our developer stats, which also update daily: http://www.appbrain.com/info/developer-dashboard
Any suggestions of what you'd like to see more (if it's available for us to engineer) are welcome!
> There are alternative frontends to the Google market, such as AppBrain, of which I'm one of the co-founders.
FYI, I have a new Android phone (Galaxy S2) and I would have never realized this had I not been on HN! I wonder how you can get yourself more publicity? Maybe advertise more?
FYI, I have a new Android phone (Galaxy S2) and I would have never realized this had I not been on HN! I wonder how you can get yourself more publicity? Maybe advertise more?
appbrains search has always been solid!!
good job guys!!
good job guys!!
I'm on the Firefox for Android team, and we've had our share of problems with the Market too - mostly outright bugs, like apps appearing on devices they aren't compatible with. While any service has bugs, the Android Market is especially frustrating thanks to the duration of serious problems and complete lack of transparency and communication.
I think this is going to become a bigger problem for Google in the long run. I understand why they don't want to pay people to do customer or developer support but sometimes you run into a wall with their automated support systems and there's nothing you can do.
In theory this is the benefit of 3rd party stores, but the only viable one is the Amazon Appstore, but that has it's own massive issues. (To be part of the free day promo you give up that revenue, absolutely no concept of what is actually compatible with the target phone, web experience is better then the handset experience)
I think you need to seriously reconsider your business model. If you're trying to earn revenue thru 1-time app sales, then I'm afraid you're in a losing game if you're content with building just 1 app. When it comes to to-do lists, no matter how great it is, the market is flooded with those, and a lot of them are cheap.
"Google is the guy driving this bus" <-- yes, it is, it's sorta like owning a website who's only source of visitors is SEO. It's just waiting and hoping Google doesn't mess up in anyway. When you're so reliant on 1 company for your revenue, something's wrong. You shouldn't put all your eggs in 1 basket.
Maybe it's time to branch out. Explore other money making opportunities.. Maybe, just maybe building a very very good app isn't enough to build a sustainable business. Yes, it makes you proud as a developer to build an app. But we're talking about building a business.
There won't be a lack of developers developing for Android, trust me... when the audience is so huge, it doesn't matter how much friction there is. Huge companies will pay ppl tons of money to deal with the BS. They're 10+ abstraction levels away from the bullshit. They'll just tell the developer team: DEAL with it, develop this in 1 month or you're all FIRED.
"Google is the guy driving this bus" <-- yes, it is, it's sorta like owning a website who's only source of visitors is SEO. It's just waiting and hoping Google doesn't mess up in anyway. When you're so reliant on 1 company for your revenue, something's wrong. You shouldn't put all your eggs in 1 basket.
Maybe it's time to branch out. Explore other money making opportunities.. Maybe, just maybe building a very very good app isn't enough to build a sustainable business. Yes, it makes you proud as a developer to build an app. But we're talking about building a business.
There won't be a lack of developers developing for Android, trust me... when the audience is so huge, it doesn't matter how much friction there is. Huge companies will pay ppl tons of money to deal with the BS. They're 10+ abstraction levels away from the bullshit. They'll just tell the developer team: DEAL with it, develop this in 1 month or you're all FIRED.
I don't know if your post is directed at me or not, but to you and all the other people in this thread assuming Out of Milk on the Google Android Market is the only source of advertising and revenue that we have and will explore...well all of you are making a giant assumption.
Everyone, please understand the following:
We understand that putting all of your eggs in one basket is dumb. There is no success there. But when the largest portion of your market all of a sudden starts screwing with you in ways you can't figure out, that is a problem and it is something worth discussing.
Everyone, please understand the following:
We understand that putting all of your eggs in one basket is dumb. There is no success there. But when the largest portion of your market all of a sudden starts screwing with you in ways you can't figure out, that is a problem and it is something worth discussing.
Google made significant changes to the search algorithm around July 1st. They have fixed most of the complaints from developers a day ago, still some things need to get fixed but it's near the level it was before. Check this thread: http://www.google.com/support/forum/p/Android+Market/thread?...
I'm also an android developer and have experienced all these problems in the recent weeks. Here is my take on the following points:
#3 seems like its in the new market and hopefully google will fix this problem soon because it makes no sense at all. Its def a new bug in this transition to the new market that goog is probably aware of.
#4 google support has always been horrible. try calling the android market reps in support. the more devs call and express bugs they can usually foward issues to the dev team. Also stalk people on the android team on quora/twitter/google+. this works too! tried and tested ;)
#1 stats have always been bad. they go up and down and don't work for large periods at a time. our stats froze for about 2 weeks. hopefully this doesnt effect our ranking but with the secret algorithm we will never know. luckily we use google analytics and other tracking methods to account for this.
#2 market search is prob the most stressfull thing we had to deal with. for the past two weeks nobody could find out app in the market. it simply just dissapeared. we had 1000's of downloads a day that went to under 100. this def hurt our revenue and app usage decreased due to the lack of new users. prob end up costing a couple thousand in revenue. luckily it seems like they are making an effort to fix this as today we started appearing again and the search results seem to be improving by the hour.
Is the market perfect? hell no! the android market is def bipolar and has alot of problems. For us we cant live with it cant live without it. the past couple of weeks have been crazy due to the all the problems our app was having with the search bugs, etc.
Hopefully as developers we can continue to help each other find ways to overcome the bugs and help google build a quality market. Having a market that works is def a win win situation that I'm hoping to be a part of.
On the flipside these bugs have caused me to develop IOS versions of my app which I probably woudlnt have done if these bugs didnt exist. So looking foward to try that new venue ;)
#3 seems like its in the new market and hopefully google will fix this problem soon because it makes no sense at all. Its def a new bug in this transition to the new market that goog is probably aware of.
#4 google support has always been horrible. try calling the android market reps in support. the more devs call and express bugs they can usually foward issues to the dev team. Also stalk people on the android team on quora/twitter/google+. this works too! tried and tested ;)
#1 stats have always been bad. they go up and down and don't work for large periods at a time. our stats froze for about 2 weeks. hopefully this doesnt effect our ranking but with the secret algorithm we will never know. luckily we use google analytics and other tracking methods to account for this.
#2 market search is prob the most stressfull thing we had to deal with. for the past two weeks nobody could find out app in the market. it simply just dissapeared. we had 1000's of downloads a day that went to under 100. this def hurt our revenue and app usage decreased due to the lack of new users. prob end up costing a couple thousand in revenue. luckily it seems like they are making an effort to fix this as today we started appearing again and the search results seem to be improving by the hour.
Is the market perfect? hell no! the android market is def bipolar and has alot of problems. For us we cant live with it cant live without it. the past couple of weeks have been crazy due to the all the problems our app was having with the search bugs, etc.
Hopefully as developers we can continue to help each other find ways to overcome the bugs and help google build a quality market. Having a market that works is def a win win situation that I'm hoping to be a part of.
On the flipside these bugs have caused me to develop IOS versions of my app which I probably woudlnt have done if these bugs didnt exist. So looking foward to try that new venue ;)
Out of Milk started off as a dedicated Android project as our attempt to create an application for Android phones that absolutely screamed quality. We looked at the apps currently available on Google's Market and realized that there is a lack of quality applications with dedicated developers. We have spent a lot of money and a lot of time trying to prove that Android is a robust and high-quality platform. Unfortunately, Google is making this extremely difficult.
I am a developer / co-founder of one the most popular Shopping List and Productivity applications on the Android Market. Our application is called Out of Milk (https://Market.android.com/details?id=com.capigami.outofmilk). As of right now, we are currently nearing 1 million downloads, a gigantic install base of users, and over 6000 ratings, nearly all 4-5 stars. Over the past several weeks, it is almost as if Google is working against the people contributing applications to their Market. Google is consistently releasing updates to the Market that is consistently and thoroughly making it impossible to be profitable in one of the most aggressive and fast-moving markets on the internet. I'd like to outline the bevy of issues we have been facing.
1) Statistics - Developers get to see statistics for their applications in the Developer Console which are updated regularly (usually on a daily basis). These statistics include how many downloads you have had, how many users have your application installed, how many ratings you have, and other important metrics for your application. The stats showing the total number of users who have your app installed will randomly freeze. For the past month, it's only been updated a few times due to issues with the Developer Console. At the same time this is happening, your competitors may or may not be experiencing the same issue. The stats are a factor in your apps ranking on the Market so if your stats stagnate it may give your competitor an unfair edge in the Market. Once the statistics start working again, they do not work retroactively, it just starts where it originally froze. The last time it froze for us, 3% of our install base magically disappeared because we got a ton of downloads but no installations over a 2 week period.
2) Market Search - This is the big killer. Before the updates to the Market over the past few weeks, searching for our application by its content type would consistently put us near the top of the results. I believe that this is correct due to the fact that we are extremely popular and well-reviewed. However, now when searching in our application category, we are result #227. We are consistently being beaten by hundreds of application that have 10-50 downloads, zero ratings, and absolutely no Market history. This has caused our purchases to fall from doing very well to almost getting no purchases at all. Google's Market updates are effectively making sure that Out of Milk cannot continue development due to not making enough to cover operating costs.
3) Comment Sorting - When visiting applications on the Market, the comment ratings consistently display in a very strange manner, almost as if there is no sorting at all. Instead of showing the most recent reviews that may praise us for adding a new feature or condemn us for a bug, it is displaying reviews from the beginning of the year that may or may not be relevant to the application by this point in its lifecycle. Users who visit the application and read reviews that are extremely out of date do not get a good overview of what this application is about.
4) Google Support - This is a complete joke. I am not even sure why Google is providing support at all. We contact Google on a regular basis trying to find out about our issues and how we can recover from them. If Google replies, it usually takes well over 3 days for them to reply with a canned response. After asking as to how we can fix our Market ranking results in the search and for a status update if they are working on it, the reply was, and this is almost an exact quote, "Google is always working to make the Market even better.".
The four issues I have detailed above are game breakers. How can Google expect developers to get involved in the Market if the success of their application is completely based on the whim of broken updates to their software? Out of Milk went from doing extremely well to dead in the water almost overnight. We are working as hard we can to try and figure out solutions from our own end, but Google is the guy driving this bus and we can only do so much on our own.
My advice to people who are currently looking to get into developing for Android: wait. There is absolutely no benefit to spending your time, money and effort on getting involved in the Android Market place at this time. Google is actively working to make sure that you, the developer, cannot and will not succeed in their Market. That sounds like a bald-faced lie, I know, but it is the only conclusion I can come to in this matter. Visit the support forums for Android Developers and look at the hundreds of threads about these same issues with absolutely zero replies and it all becomes a little clearer.