Ask HN: Learning other (non-programming) languages?
We've all talked about ways to learn programming languages... But how about foreign languages? Has anyone had luck with software programs or CDs of any kind?
10 comments
Find some music you like that has contemporary lyrics in that language, and listen to it a lot.
"Tune your ears".
In addition to working to pick up the semantics of the lyrics, different languages emphasize different frequency ranges and sounds. You do need to literally "tune" your hearing to better perceive these.
Music you like turns this from a chore to a pleasure. Also, with music, video, books, etc., you start to pick up some of the culture, which helps you to become more "native" in your approach. There's also a lot of "slang" and contemporary word usage and dialog that will not make it into a text book.
"Tune your ears".
In addition to working to pick up the semantics of the lyrics, different languages emphasize different frequency ranges and sounds. You do need to literally "tune" your hearing to better perceive these.
Music you like turns this from a chore to a pleasure. Also, with music, video, books, etc., you start to pick up some of the culture, which helps you to become more "native" in your approach. There's also a lot of "slang" and contemporary word usage and dialog that will not make it into a text book.
It seems like moving to a country where the language is spoken isn't an option for you.
Here is how I advanced my Hebrew before moving to Israel. My prior knowledge was that I was able to read and write, but didn't really understand much except for mom, dad, table, chair.
- Pimsleur audio course - while driving I would listen to these mp3s. About 12 hours worth of participatory conversations. I think this should be required.
- online live tutoring - I got a discount for this online tutoring service, about $15 per hour I paid to have a teacher give me a private lesson with a digital whiteboard plus camera. Great for learning basic concepts, grammar, and also conversational.
- textbooks made for learning - first complete a book that is made for English speakers. Then get a book that is made for children or for people learning the language with no other language support. Like an ESL book with only English inside.
- make some friends that speak the language. This is ultimately the most important step. Nothing you learn in books or mp3s will stick unless you practice with real human beings.
Good luck!
Good luck!
I'd definitely go for the classroom. Unless you're living in the country, it can be pretty hard to maintain the discipline to cram vocabulary at a reasonable pace without anyone checking on you. Also, at some point you'll at least need someone to practice with, ask questions, and check your grammar.
If you're looking for tips - when I was taking multiple languages at once (Japanese, Chinese, and Korean), between classes I listened to music from the language of the class I was about to go to, to get my mind switched into that mode. I'm also under the impression that the music helped with my pronunciation a lot (but not with listening comprehension as much as I'd've expected).
If you're looking for tips - when I was taking multiple languages at once (Japanese, Chinese, and Korean), between classes I listened to music from the language of the class I was about to go to, to get my mind switched into that mode. I'm also under the impression that the music helped with my pronunciation a lot (but not with listening comprehension as much as I'd've expected).
I have been looking to learn spanish. My personal preference is to take a classroom course so you will have real people to interact with and remember the vocabulary. And then you can follow up that with online material.
During my search, I also found 1. iTune podcasts (Coffetime Spanish) and many more 2. My local library has a tie-up with MangoLanguages 3. Verbling ( a new site backed by YC)
Rosetta stone is always there, but is something I would consider once I have take a classroom course first.
During my search, I also found 1. iTune podcasts (Coffetime Spanish) and many more 2. My local library has a tie-up with MangoLanguages 3. Verbling ( a new site backed by YC)
Rosetta stone is always there, but is something I would consider once I have take a classroom course first.
[deleted]
Michel Thomas has worked for me - French, Italian and Spanish...It is all audio-learning though - no written per se. I've gotten surprisingly good results - at least enough to hold my own in simple conversations from the CDs (they are about 8 hours each for a basic course).
The more you study the better you get so try http://alljapaneseallthetime.com
There's some great posts about methods and motivation on that from someone who learnt Japanese in about 18 months.
There's some great posts about methods and motivation on that from someone who learnt Japanese in about 18 months.
I was able to augment Pimsleur's Japanese tapes with some reading to crack the old Level 4 of Japanese Language Proficiency Test. It was a very good starting point. Worked well for me I would say.
Classroom courses!
If not, then properly structured distance education courses are amazing.
Structure I like: Weekly assignments based on book Assignments are both audio and written Exam based on comprehension
If not, then properly structured distance education courses are amazing.
Structure I like: Weekly assignments based on book Assignments are both audio and written Exam based on comprehension
99% of all that is crap. Period.
Persistence + dedication + passion and you can learn any language for free to a functionally fluent level in less than 2 years doing 3-4 hours a day.
No different than hacking effort-wise.
The catch is that some amount of rote learning is a must. Immersion, real life practice etc is all cool, but it's just not the most efficient way. The never dying argument that children learn languages fast because of total immersion is some kind of a joke. They don't learn fast, it takes them a lot of time. The only thing they pick up fast is the accent and what I would call language intuition. But building up huge vocabulary takes them a lot of time.
So you if you want to be on the fast track you have to combine rote learning and immersion. Rote learning for cramming in TONS of vocabulary, you can do 50-100 a day with flashcards. Immersion for getting the feel.
If you're smart enough you can pretty much skip speaking practice, I know, very controversial. But if you feel like you can, then yes you can. I strongly believe it can even make things worse for some people. Because they develop bad habits too early. And I'm talking real life practice here. DO talk to yourself in that given language. Think in it. Even speak it aloud to yourself. But don't find language partners for speaking.
If you really feel like you want to do the language exchange thing then you can do it very early on, say the first month of learning. And only do text based. It's a good introduction to very basic written language. It quickly gets too easy, so you need to be aware when it stops being a learning tool and starts being 100% fun. If you can, just stay away.
Rote learning will be the hard work part of the equation, so I say try to do as much rote stuff done as you can and when you feel you're burning out just switch to stuff that's more in the immersion department. Then go back and repeat. With that method extra time that you put in actually increases the rate at which you learn exponentially. If you do 1 hour a day I'd bet that even in 6 years you'll have a long way to go. Do 6 a day and you can get fluent with an accent that is close to native accent in a year. Of course mileage varies.
Classes are totally not an option. They are full of COMPLETE slackers, language learners really do not have a good reputation, especially at an early stage (who does?).
1 on 1 tutoring is good, but don't let the tutor set the pace. The tutor is not for you to practice speaking/listening with. Of course you'll do that with him, because ideally you'll be only speaking in the target language. But his main role is to prepare your daily fix of material to cram and give you an answer when you need it. (less frequently makes little sense, bi daily at most).
I often find that it takes TONS of time to actually come up with what I'm going to cram in. Especially once you go deeper. So you can outsource that to the tutor. And do communicate that you want to go FAST (if you do :-)).
Ok. I guess it's enough, I just love learning languages. Most people think my approach is crazy, but well it works for me and I'm sure it worked in past for many many others.
If anybody wants some more crazy tips from me just post here or my email is in the profile.
No different than hacking effort-wise.
The catch is that some amount of rote learning is a must. Immersion, real life practice etc is all cool, but it's just not the most efficient way. The never dying argument that children learn languages fast because of total immersion is some kind of a joke. They don't learn fast, it takes them a lot of time. The only thing they pick up fast is the accent and what I would call language intuition. But building up huge vocabulary takes them a lot of time.
So you if you want to be on the fast track you have to combine rote learning and immersion. Rote learning for cramming in TONS of vocabulary, you can do 50-100 a day with flashcards. Immersion for getting the feel.
If you're smart enough you can pretty much skip speaking practice, I know, very controversial. But if you feel like you can, then yes you can. I strongly believe it can even make things worse for some people. Because they develop bad habits too early. And I'm talking real life practice here. DO talk to yourself in that given language. Think in it. Even speak it aloud to yourself. But don't find language partners for speaking.
If you really feel like you want to do the language exchange thing then you can do it very early on, say the first month of learning. And only do text based. It's a good introduction to very basic written language. It quickly gets too easy, so you need to be aware when it stops being a learning tool and starts being 100% fun. If you can, just stay away.
Rote learning will be the hard work part of the equation, so I say try to do as much rote stuff done as you can and when you feel you're burning out just switch to stuff that's more in the immersion department. Then go back and repeat. With that method extra time that you put in actually increases the rate at which you learn exponentially. If you do 1 hour a day I'd bet that even in 6 years you'll have a long way to go. Do 6 a day and you can get fluent with an accent that is close to native accent in a year. Of course mileage varies.
Classes are totally not an option. They are full of COMPLETE slackers, language learners really do not have a good reputation, especially at an early stage (who does?).
1 on 1 tutoring is good, but don't let the tutor set the pace. The tutor is not for you to practice speaking/listening with. Of course you'll do that with him, because ideally you'll be only speaking in the target language. But his main role is to prepare your daily fix of material to cram and give you an answer when you need it. (less frequently makes little sense, bi daily at most).
I often find that it takes TONS of time to actually come up with what I'm going to cram in. Especially once you go deeper. So you can outsource that to the tutor. And do communicate that you want to go FAST (if you do :-)).
Ok. I guess it's enough, I just love learning languages. Most people think my approach is crazy, but well it works for me and I'm sure it worked in past for many many others.
If anybody wants some more crazy tips from me just post here or my email is in the profile.
By "feel" do you also mean grammar? Because I do believe that immersion is necessary for an intuitive understanding of the structure of a language. Rote grammar will get y9ou so far, but it's a different beast.
I agree that vocabulary is a more mechanical memorization task. Knowledge of linguistic antecedents (eg. Latin for the Romance family) greatly helps this along.
I agree that vocabulary is a more mechanical memorization task. Knowledge of linguistic antecedents (eg. Latin for the Romance family) greatly helps this along.
For immersion, the best is go and live in a country that speak the language you wish to learn. Et si est le pays d'origine mieux. Muchos paises adoptaron los modismos a tal punto de "crear" un nuevo idioma.