"My iOS app is being pirated. Over 90% haven't paid for it. What can I do?"(reddit.com)
reddit.com
"My iOS app is being pirated. Over 90% haven't paid for it. What can I do?"
http://www.reddit.com/r/gamedev/comments/hs5y5/my_ios_app_is_being_pirated_to_the_point_where/
103 comments
Piracy might not bother him again... until his pirated downloads drop by 98% and paid downloads drop by 50%. And when he complains about this on Hacker News, patio11 tells him to spend more time blogging and working on SEO. ;)
My advice would have the desirable property of actually working.
I've personally benefited from your shared insights into SEO here, but your reply above is glib and dismissive of a business strategy that works for a lot of people (including me). It emphasizes actively focusing on SEO and pursuing visibility in search engines instead of passively optimizing for word-of-mouth and visibility in channels like the App store.
So no... I disagree that it would work. I think rkalla below offers some great advice. To which I'd add that if I were this guy, I'd give a basic version of the app away for free to boost legit downloads through the App store, brand the hell out of it (URL on load page), charge other app websites to be featured as the site of the day, and use various methods ("visit our website for a code to unlock extra content") to get user emails and build a distribution channel that he can leverage in the future. This requires a bit of work, but much less (I think) than is required by the non-freemium approach, and has the advantage of avoiding a focus on Google as one's key distribution channel.
So no... I disagree that it would work. I think rkalla below offers some great advice. To which I'd add that if I were this guy, I'd give a basic version of the app away for free to boost legit downloads through the App store, brand the hell out of it (URL on load page), charge other app websites to be featured as the site of the day, and use various methods ("visit our website for a code to unlock extra content") to get user emails and build a distribution channel that he can leverage in the future. This requires a bit of work, but much less (I think) than is required by the non-freemium approach, and has the advantage of avoiding a focus on Google as one's key distribution channel.
You disagree that serverside software is harder to pirate than clientside software? You're wrong.
I think what's happening here is that you're not following Patrick's advice to the logical conclusion he's trying to lead you to. He's not suggesting that you SEO an existing iOS application. He's suggesting that you hoist the parts of that application that are worth money into a server and require people to have paid accounts on the server.
This has been Patrick's response to (utterly pointless and exasperating) piracy discussions on HN for at least two years now. He's not being glib. He's repeating himself, concisely.
I think what's happening here is that you're not following Patrick's advice to the logical conclusion he's trying to lead you to. He's not suggesting that you SEO an existing iOS application. He's suggesting that you hoist the parts of that application that are worth money into a server and require people to have paid accounts on the server.
This has been Patrick's response to (utterly pointless and exasperating) piracy discussions on HN for at least two years now. He's not being glib. He's repeating himself, concisely.
tptacek,
This comment is not meant to be dismissive, but your advice is imho a recipe for dismal placement in the App store. It makes it much less likely that anyone will find this guy's application and will produce a bunch of 1-star rankings from those who do because "app didn't work" or "requires Internet" or "why do i have to register on server after buying app". Your proposal for server authentication also risks violating Apple's new TOS regarding subscription apps unless he moves to in-app payments and goes freemium anyway (which is part of the more realistic solution).
There is a non-obvious case to be made that this guy's Asteroids clone should be a paid webapp, but the suggestion is so counterintuitive to actual iOS marketers that summarizing all advice to the contrary as "blah blah blah" is not helpful. And I suspect that if you or Patrick had experience developing for iOS you wouldn't be so quick to believe that any strategy that doesn't involve tethering applications is "pointless and exasperating".
Piracy does not help with pagerank, but total downloads do wonders for visibility in the App Store as do the "others also downloaded" buttons. If Patrick is advising killing that marketing channel, he will need to come up with something else and if it isn't SEO I don't know what it is. This guy needs to leverage his freeloaders to promote the visibility of his stuff and be smarter about providing people with opportunities to pay him. For an example of a better approach look at the strategy of this company. Not only does free promote paid, but the price of the paid app is higher because it doesn't need to compete with other paid games for visibility in general channels:
http://itunes.apple.com/us/artist/sillysoft-games/id29253857...
This comment is not meant to be dismissive, but your advice is imho a recipe for dismal placement in the App store. It makes it much less likely that anyone will find this guy's application and will produce a bunch of 1-star rankings from those who do because "app didn't work" or "requires Internet" or "why do i have to register on server after buying app". Your proposal for server authentication also risks violating Apple's new TOS regarding subscription apps unless he moves to in-app payments and goes freemium anyway (which is part of the more realistic solution).
There is a non-obvious case to be made that this guy's Asteroids clone should be a paid webapp, but the suggestion is so counterintuitive to actual iOS marketers that summarizing all advice to the contrary as "blah blah blah" is not helpful. And I suspect that if you or Patrick had experience developing for iOS you wouldn't be so quick to believe that any strategy that doesn't involve tethering applications is "pointless and exasperating".
Piracy does not help with pagerank, but total downloads do wonders for visibility in the App Store as do the "others also downloaded" buttons. If Patrick is advising killing that marketing channel, he will need to come up with something else and if it isn't SEO I don't know what it is. This guy needs to leverage his freeloaders to promote the visibility of his stuff and be smarter about providing people with opportunities to pay him. For an example of a better approach look at the strategy of this company. Not only does free promote paid, but the price of the paid app is higher because it doesn't need to compete with other paid games for visibility in general channels:
http://itunes.apple.com/us/artist/sillysoft-games/id29253857...
Why is success that is generated by some kind of act that is seen as "work" in a way better than success that is generated by the planned use of known forces (online piracy).
I don't want to get all bruce lee, but isn't redirecting some kind of force, be it the interest of pirates or something else, always better than to work against it?
I don't want to get all bruce lee, but isn't redirecting some kind of force, be it the interest of pirates or something else, always better than to work against it?
There are moral judgements to be made about piracy, but I think the larger issue is that the pull-through sales from piracy are, in at least some people's opinions, wishful.
[deleted]
This sounds more like a narrative that supports your entrenched position, personal worldview, and target audience, rather than an actual useful summary of the many lucid arguments put forward in the original link.
I thought it was a useful summary. The arguments in the original link are by-now-familiar platitudes, even if they are lucid.
I agree. Piracy is the best thing that ever happened to Microsoft. If DRM worked, China - unable to afford Windows- would be a massive base of innovation for Linux desktops, and ultimately undermine Microsoft. If copyright were strongly enforced, nobody there would know what Louis Vitton is - instead it is now home to their most profitable store.
Piracy is great marketing. Better even than free. You have distribution of free accelerated by the impression of value. The best reaction to piracy is to leverage the demand and user base.
Piracy is great marketing. Better even than free. You have distribution of free accelerated by the impression of value. The best reaction to piracy is to leverage the demand and user base.
Yeah, but small software companies and freelancers are NOT Microsoft.
Windows and MS Office are software packages that you just use for years and years, probably for a lifetime. Once you're hooked, it's hard to switch. You cannot really compare Windows and MS Office with a game for which you lose interest in 2 weeks. Your business or other endeavors are not really depending on that game.
Also, Microsoft has enough power to lobby local governments to tighten anti-piracy laws and do so in their favor with special emphasis on their products.
Small indie developers can't really compare themselves with Microsoft. Piracy works for you as long as you've got room to convert pirated versions to non-pirated, or to increase the number of paying customers by using piracy for marketing, but again that really depends on the type of product you're selling ... for example, would paying customers gain any advantages, like fresh levels every 2 weeks?
Windows and MS Office are software packages that you just use for years and years, probably for a lifetime. Once you're hooked, it's hard to switch. You cannot really compare Windows and MS Office with a game for which you lose interest in 2 weeks. Your business or other endeavors are not really depending on that game.
Also, Microsoft has enough power to lobby local governments to tighten anti-piracy laws and do so in their favor with special emphasis on their products.
Small indie developers can't really compare themselves with Microsoft. Piracy works for you as long as you've got room to convert pirated versions to non-pirated, or to increase the number of paying customers by using piracy for marketing, but again that really depends on the type of product you're selling ... for example, would paying customers gain any advantages, like fresh levels every 2 weeks?
I guess you've never read the Open Letter to Hobbyists.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Letter_to_Hobbyists
The best thing to do is estimate the number of users and use it in the marketing. (eg. instead of 200 copies sold, say 2000 users, etc)
The best thing to do is estimate the number of users and use it in the marketing. (eg. instead of 200 copies sold, say 2000 users, etc)
One of the big reasons that China or India (which might be linguistically closer) is not a hotbed for Linux innovation is because of the linux leadership.
Hold more conferences here, incorporate features required for a non-Roman script market and see it explode. FYI - every known computer maker sells OS-free machines: both because the local piracy driven market demands it and that a lot of people use Linux as an alternative to Windows (India Dell level 2 customer support will answer Ubuntu questions)
> incorporate features required for a non-Roman script market
Nobody in India uses computers in Indian languages. Everything's in English, and when people do write in an Indian language, it's using a bastardized, improvised romanization. So non-Roman script support is a non-issue.
Nobody in India uses computers in Indian languages. Everything's in English, and when people do write in an Indian language, it's using a bastardized, improvised romanization. So non-Roman script support is a non-issue.
Is that true? How interesting! How do you know this? Do you live in India?
No, I'm American. Read about it on Wikipedia and some other sites. I'm a bit of an amateur linguist, so it's interesting to me (though also sad - the internet is the future, so without online usage, a language has no future).
India has so many languages that all official business is done in English. Since (just like in every other country) computers first appeared in big businesses, only English support was needed. The types of people working at those companies are fluent in English. Most of them went to English-medium schools ever since kindergarten. All of the universities are English-medium, so if you don't learn everything in English from when you're little, you'll never stand a chance in the hypercompetitive university entrance exams.
This made computer adoption very easy - just get some American computers and you're good to go. No time wasted localizing anything. Localization would have been a huge problem in India (a much bigger problem than China) because there are so many languages, and they all have a different script. A veritable nightmare for computer vendors - how many types of keyboards do you have to stock and keep track of? In the cities (where computers appeared first), there would be people from all over the country, speaking and writing all kinds of different languages. There's no one language that everyone knows that you can standardize on.
In China, OTOH, the strong, authoritarian central government made sure that everyone was educated in one language (Mandarin), and even if they weren't, the same script is used by all the languages (since it's character-based, not phonetic-based). This means that all business in China is conducted in Mandarin, and of course, nationalistic fervor wouldn't have allowed computers to simply remain unlocalized. Moreover, the phonetic pinyin input system doesn't require keyboard localization, so the Chinese just use American keyboards as well.
India has so many languages that all official business is done in English. Since (just like in every other country) computers first appeared in big businesses, only English support was needed. The types of people working at those companies are fluent in English. Most of them went to English-medium schools ever since kindergarten. All of the universities are English-medium, so if you don't learn everything in English from when you're little, you'll never stand a chance in the hypercompetitive university entrance exams.
This made computer adoption very easy - just get some American computers and you're good to go. No time wasted localizing anything. Localization would have been a huge problem in India (a much bigger problem than China) because there are so many languages, and they all have a different script. A veritable nightmare for computer vendors - how many types of keyboards do you have to stock and keep track of? In the cities (where computers appeared first), there would be people from all over the country, speaking and writing all kinds of different languages. There's no one language that everyone knows that you can standardize on.
In China, OTOH, the strong, authoritarian central government made sure that everyone was educated in one language (Mandarin), and even if they weren't, the same script is used by all the languages (since it's character-based, not phonetic-based). This means that all business in China is conducted in Mandarin, and of course, nationalistic fervor wouldn't have allowed computers to simply remain unlocalized. Moreover, the phonetic pinyin input system doesn't require keyboard localization, so the Chinese just use American keyboards as well.
You are close to the answer, but not quite there.
You see a lot of government work has to be done in the vernacular ( by political necessity) - and the defacto tool for written communication happens to be Word. Now, I have been trying to (as part of Accountability Initiative and other egov channels) get the govt to adopt open source alternatives like OpenOffice. But the problem is that complex Indic languages are NOT a priority for either Gnome or KDE (and frankly dont work that well on Linux). For example, the Harfbuzz project mentions somewhere For established scripts though, there is not much reason to prefer Graphite over OpenType. Graphite is of course, the Indic compatible smartfont technology. Again, I might be completely wrong by way of technology, but the fact remains that the world's fastest growing computing market doesnt have significant linux mindshare. Very sad considering tha it is very very easy to do that in India.. much more than Europe or America, where you have to de-Apple people.
What really, really hurts me though is the fact that a significant (>70%) number of Indian colleges teach programming in Borland C. Why ? well it is easy to blame our cultural proclivity to resist change - but the easier answer is that they dont know any better. Remember, India does not have a significant amount of internet penetration: Network effects happen more due to physical communities rather than electronic ones .
Asia (and especially India) is at the cusp of an open-source revolution just because we cant afford anything else. Come over and start one.
You see a lot of government work has to be done in the vernacular ( by political necessity) - and the defacto tool for written communication happens to be Word. Now, I have been trying to (as part of Accountability Initiative and other egov channels) get the govt to adopt open source alternatives like OpenOffice. But the problem is that complex Indic languages are NOT a priority for either Gnome or KDE (and frankly dont work that well on Linux). For example, the Harfbuzz project mentions somewhere For established scripts though, there is not much reason to prefer Graphite over OpenType. Graphite is of course, the Indic compatible smartfont technology. Again, I might be completely wrong by way of technology, but the fact remains that the world's fastest growing computing market doesnt have significant linux mindshare. Very sad considering tha it is very very easy to do that in India.. much more than Europe or America, where you have to de-Apple people.
What really, really hurts me though is the fact that a significant (>70%) number of Indian colleges teach programming in Borland C. Why ? well it is easy to blame our cultural proclivity to resist change - but the easier answer is that they dont know any better. Remember, India does not have a significant amount of internet penetration: Network effects happen more due to physical communities rather than electronic ones .
Asia (and especially India) is at the cusp of an open-source revolution just because we cant afford anything else. Come over and start one.
> the problem is that complex Indic languages are NOT a priority for either Gnome or KDE
I think you have the wrong attitude with regards to this matter. In an open source project, the priorities are what the developers (or the people paying them) are interested in. If Indians want things to be changed wrt localization support in FLOSS, then they must take the initiative to do it themselves.
Do you think it was easy for the Chinese to get ~50,000 characters into Unicode? It made the font tables absolutely enormous, and so UTF-8 is much more verbose than ASCII. But they knew they wanted Chinese language support, and they did the work to get it.
So if there is sufficient interest from sufficiently influential people, things can be done very easily in open source.
I think you have the wrong attitude with regards to this matter. In an open source project, the priorities are what the developers (or the people paying them) are interested in. If Indians want things to be changed wrt localization support in FLOSS, then they must take the initiative to do it themselves.
Do you think it was easy for the Chinese to get ~50,000 characters into Unicode? It made the font tables absolutely enormous, and so UTF-8 is much more verbose than ASCII. But they knew they wanted Chinese language support, and they did the work to get it.
So if there is sufficient interest from sufficiently influential people, things can be done very easily in open source.
My comment was not meant to change the direction of anything or to disparage the efforts of a community which helps me earn a living.
It was simply to illustrate that linux is not yet an alternative to piracy.
It was simply to illustrate that linux is not yet an alternative to piracy.
I live in Bulgaria. The official script here is Cyrillic. Although all OSs support Cyrillic, the vast majority of users use the so called 'shlyokavitsa' - using ASCII to write in Bulgarian, which (as expected) is not very suitable for the purpose. The result is extremely low quality (and hard to read) text. And yet, this is probably 90% of the talk in chats, facebook and other venues where 'ordinary' people interact.
I have friends who are Arabs and they do the same (though, they at least have a good excuse as computers around here don't have Arabic keys).
I have no reasons to believe that the situation in India is any different.
Some countries go even further, and make Latin their second official script. This is the situation in Serbia at the moment (Cyrillic and Latin).
The official languages of India are Hindi and English. All government business and most commerce and tech is done in English. You have to remember that what looks like "India" on a map was hundreds of smaller territories unified by the British Empire, and each had its own dialect. It would be impossible to support all of them.
I've been to parts of Africa (Ethiopia, Kenya, Zambia) promoting Linux. Except for Ethiopia all languages there are written in ASCII, and English (or French) is sometimes the official state language and commonly spoken. However Windows is still massively used and massively pirated.
when did you turn into such a know-it-all patio? All I see from you is arrogant one liners for the last few months.
It's been interesting seeing how your (modest) success has turned you into an asshole - shame really.
It's been interesting seeing how your (modest) success has turned you into an asshole - shame really.
Patios statement was that moving to SaaS model removes piracy.
I see no asshole-ish nature and I'd bet it's 100% on the money, though I've never sold downloadables so I can't speak from experience.
Let's stay above name calling. We're all adults here.
I see no asshole-ish nature and I'd bet it's 100% on the money, though I've never sold downloadables so I can't speak from experience.
Let's stay above name calling. We're all adults here.
I agree with this sentiment, but not the expression of it.
An open invitation: If you see me being glib and handwavy, please, ask for an elaboration. I have many faults. Insufficient desire to talk is not usually one of them.
I'll happily write up 800 words on why SaaS means piracy vanishes overnight, but the short version is just as informative: pirating the client means you can pirate the service like "pirating" Firefox lets you pirate Basecamp. Do you want me to talk about the China angle and how essentially all games in China (and Korea before it) are currently "free to play" with property/boosts/etc maintained on the server? And how that model is going to become dominant in the US, too, because gamers are voting for it with their wallets?
I'll happily write up 800 words on why SaaS means piracy vanishes overnight, but the short version is just as informative: pirating the client means you can pirate the service like "pirating" Firefox lets you pirate Basecamp. Do you want me to talk about the China angle and how essentially all games in China (and Korea before it) are currently "free to play" with property/boosts/etc maintained on the server? And how that model is going to become dominant in the US, too, because gamers are voting for it with their wallets?
It's been interesting seeing how your (modest) success has turned you into an asshole - shame really.
Is there a way to associate a purchase made on the Android/iOS app store with an account on a server?
An interesting property of this approach: The app creator _will_ know if "wouldn't have bought it anyway" is true.
The result may be a shock for some, but at least they have no more illusions ("So many people love my app but pirate it. If they couldn't pirate it they would buy it!") and can get back to work.
The result may be a shock for some, but at least they have no more illusions ("So many people love my app but pirate it. If they couldn't pirate it they would buy it!") and can get back to work.
In other piracy discussions I've always viewed piracy as organic-marketing.
Meaning if you wanted to nurture the piracy (e.g. no DRM, easier install paths, etc.) you would probably get your software in the hands of more people and just redirect what you would have spent on marketing to keeping it in the bank and track the piracy as marketing costs.
I'll admit that is a rosy way to look at it, but I'm definitely one of those "The people that pirate your software, never would have bought it in the first place" believers.
Look at Windows, remember when 95/XP had 96% domination of the world's computers? That only started to come down when they got draconian with their DRM/activation/genuine windows/etc. I saw about half my friends move to Mac/Linux in that move (techie crowd) and I have to imagine they likely moved friends/family to their new platform of choice in the process.
The people that were never going to be their customers went looking elsewhere for alternatives.
Imagine how many of those pirated copies of Windows ran legit copies of Office or IIS (or any Windows-specific software) that were paid for as the result of the machine operating in a Windows-only environment.
Them Microsoft clamped down on those users and squeezed them all out of the eco-system completely. No ancillary sales anymore from those folks; they are now permanent customers of other platforms.
It seems to me that if you can accept that your software will be pirated up-front, you can get some mileage out of it.
Put a mechanism in your game to check for announcements on a web server and display them. Maybe your game is 90% pirated, but when you released your NEXT game (or piece of software) you are suddenly announcing the release to 9x the audience you would have had if it wasn't pirated so heavily.
You suddenly have direct access to all those customers that didn't cost you Google Adwords money or SEO to find. They already like what you do, they pirated your game.
I really see this as an opportunity for this guy (and anyone facing the issue) if you stop thinking about every pirated copy as a lost sale... just like I wouldn't think of every egg I eat in the morning as a chicken I murdered.
They were never your customers and those eggs were never full-grown chickens.
Meaning if you wanted to nurture the piracy (e.g. no DRM, easier install paths, etc.) you would probably get your software in the hands of more people and just redirect what you would have spent on marketing to keeping it in the bank and track the piracy as marketing costs.
I'll admit that is a rosy way to look at it, but I'm definitely one of those "The people that pirate your software, never would have bought it in the first place" believers.
Look at Windows, remember when 95/XP had 96% domination of the world's computers? That only started to come down when they got draconian with their DRM/activation/genuine windows/etc. I saw about half my friends move to Mac/Linux in that move (techie crowd) and I have to imagine they likely moved friends/family to their new platform of choice in the process.
The people that were never going to be their customers went looking elsewhere for alternatives.
Imagine how many of those pirated copies of Windows ran legit copies of Office or IIS (or any Windows-specific software) that were paid for as the result of the machine operating in a Windows-only environment.
Them Microsoft clamped down on those users and squeezed them all out of the eco-system completely. No ancillary sales anymore from those folks; they are now permanent customers of other platforms.
It seems to me that if you can accept that your software will be pirated up-front, you can get some mileage out of it.
Put a mechanism in your game to check for announcements on a web server and display them. Maybe your game is 90% pirated, but when you released your NEXT game (or piece of software) you are suddenly announcing the release to 9x the audience you would have had if it wasn't pirated so heavily.
You suddenly have direct access to all those customers that didn't cost you Google Adwords money or SEO to find. They already like what you do, they pirated your game.
I really see this as an opportunity for this guy (and anyone facing the issue) if you stop thinking about every pirated copy as a lost sale... just like I wouldn't think of every egg I eat in the morning as a chicken I murdered.
They were never your customers and those eggs were never full-grown chickens.
> I'm definitely one of those "The people that pirate your software, never would have bought it in the first place" believers.
I think that's only true for X% of the people who pirate. Pro-piracy groups like to assume X=100% (that people who pirate would never be persuaded to purchase a copy), anti-piracy groups assume that X=0% (that every pirate can be persuaded to purchase a copy). The truth is that X is probably somewhere in between.
Unfortunately there's no public data about what X really is, or even anything that could narrow down the range a little bit.
I think that's only true for X% of the people who pirate. Pro-piracy groups like to assume X=100% (that people who pirate would never be persuaded to purchase a copy), anti-piracy groups assume that X=0% (that every pirate can be persuaded to purchase a copy). The truth is that X is probably somewhere in between.
Unfortunately there's no public data about what X really is, or even anything that could narrow down the range a little bit.
this guy just gave you the X. its 0.1%
> The truth is that X is probably somewhere in between.
X depends a lot on the particular piece of software, the target market, and the context in which it's available. There won't ever be any generalized data.
One interesting test would be to offer an app for a ridiculously low price, like $0.01 and see how many people don't bother to pay even that.
X depends a lot on the particular piece of software, the target market, and the context in which it's available. There won't ever be any generalized data.
One interesting test would be to offer an app for a ridiculously low price, like $0.01 and see how many people don't bother to pay even that.
The major friction point is not the $1 cost, it is the effort involved in pilling out the wallet at all. Apple/Google/Amazon/etc have lowered that friction with purchasing through one click purchasing, but the majority of it is still "do I want to buy this".
I would put money on sales at $1 not being statistically different from $0.01.
I would put money on sales at $1 not being statistically different from $0.01.
Isn't this the ad-supported model? ;)
Heh, basically, the main difference being that ads almost always reduce app quality.
There are lots of cases when it was documented for piracy to bring positive change.
This guys problem? Patience ;) Come on. The game was mass pirated like yesturday? Does he really expect the positive loop back to kick in that fast?
People that pirated it will take time to play it, like it, mention it to someone that might buy it, blog it, show off to friends etc, etc, etc. it takes time. but eventually those 500 pirated copies will translate into some sales.
the question is therefore whether number-of-pirates-that-would-buy-it-if-it-were-not-cracked bigger or less then number-of-sales-that-will-result-from-pirate-marketing ;)
the jury is still out.
This guys problem? Patience ;) Come on. The game was mass pirated like yesturday? Does he really expect the positive loop back to kick in that fast?
People that pirated it will take time to play it, like it, mention it to someone that might buy it, blog it, show off to friends etc, etc, etc. it takes time. but eventually those 500 pirated copies will translate into some sales.
the question is therefore whether number-of-pirates-that-would-buy-it-if-it-were-not-cracked bigger or less then number-of-sales-that-will-result-from-pirate-marketing ;)
the jury is still out.
I find this to be an interesting data point:
http://www.indiegames.com/2008/02/opinion_casual_games_and_p...
A casual game developer dramatically increased their sales by improving the effectiveness of their DRM.
I strongly dislike DRM in games, and will avoid games that push it to far. But it's hard to argue against the sales numbers quoted in the linked article.
A casual game developer dramatically increased their sales by improving the effectiveness of their DRM.
I strongly dislike DRM in games, and will avoid games that push it to far. But it's hard to argue against the sales numbers quoted in the linked article.
if you make pirating harder you will undeniably get some of the would be pirates buying instead. and of course you can measure it easily on you sales.
but.
they say the conversion is 1000 pirates vs. one sale. Which only convinces me that im right. think about it. 999 people less will be using the program. yes, you will sell one more copy, but how many future sales you loos because those 999 people are not going around talking about your program, playing it in public, recommending it to friends...
Their sales rose short term but I think the've lost long term for sure.
but.
they say the conversion is 1000 pirates vs. one sale. Which only convinces me that im right. think about it. 999 people less will be using the program. yes, you will sell one more copy, but how many future sales you loos because those 999 people are not going around talking about your program, playing it in public, recommending it to friends...
Their sales rose short term but I think the've lost long term for sure.
Well, it says that "For every 1,000 pirated copies we eliminated, we created 1 additional sale", suggesting that piracy isn't anything to worry about, as 99.9% of pirates wouldn't have bought a copy anyway.
And with this numbers, you have to have a lot of sales/would-have-been-pirates to cover the cost of implementing and maintaining the DRM.
> Fix 1 – Existing Exploits & Keygens made obsolete – Sales up 70%
A 70% increase in sales should be enough to justify it, no?
Honestly, I think the monetary cost of implementing DRM is vastly overstated.
A 70% increase in sales should be enough to justify it, no?
Honestly, I think the monetary cost of implementing DRM is vastly overstated.
>> Look at Windows, remember when 95/XP had 96% domination of the world's computers? That only started to come down when they got draconian with their DRM/activation/genuine windows/etc. I saw about half my friends move to Mac/Linux in that move <<
The graph at http://marketshare.hitslink.com/os-market-share.aspx?qprid=9... seems to disagree; the Mac/Linux market share remained constant around 5%/1% respectively. What caused the drop of Windows in the last 2 years from 93% down to 88% seems to be the iOS and Other(Android?) platforms.
The graph at http://marketshare.hitslink.com/os-market-share.aspx?qprid=9... seems to disagree; the Mac/Linux market share remained constant around 5%/1% respectively. What caused the drop of Windows in the last 2 years from 93% down to 88% seems to be the iOS and Other(Android?) platforms.
I YARRR before $.
Judging from the other comments here this may be a surprisingly unpopular opinion, but if you're pirating an app that costs one fucking dollar you should be ashamed of yourself.
Also, if you are cheap enough to fret about one fucking dollar, you probably would not buy it if you could not pirate it.
It amuses me that all of the armchair economists come out in force, writing one page dissertations on why piracy is actually efficient for the market at large and creates opportunities while neglecting the fact that the app costs one dollar. One dollar. You pay more for a cup of coffee. All of their time spent being smart on the Internet (which is quite important, I'm led to believe) was more expensive than if they just bought the app (or three) to begin with.
Ridiculous.
Ridiculous.
I'm not arguing for or against piracy but keep in mind that even at one dollar these apps can easily add up to a lot. My younger sister, for example, wants to download every cool looking app that she sees in the app store, be it useful or not. Add to that the huge influx of crappy $.99 apps that are not worth even a penny and you have enough incentive for people, especially teenagers with limited budgets, to pirate these cheap apps.
I think in order to solve the problem, it's important to see and understand all sides of the equation, even the ones we don't agree with.
I think in order to solve the problem, it's important to see and understand all sides of the equation, even the ones we don't agree with.
It's almost as if people can't have everything they want! How unfair!
I wonder. Since there are code snippets that can check to see if an app has been cracked/pirated, perhaps there is a way to inject an overlay serving ads on those who pirated. They can't exactly write a negative review on itunes because you can't rate an app unless you've purchased it.
It's always the same game of cat & mouse with pirates.
Most pirates on iOS are simply using one of the free tool and don't go far beyond that. I have implemented a technique for detecting pirated app and used it now in many apps: since then the piracy rate went down to zero which convinced that most pirates on iOS are simply using a tool and don't know what to do if the app they try to crack fail.
I am sure that a true pirate will find way to bypass my security check but so far after more that a year of implementing my solution in all my released app I didn't find anymore pirated copy.
If anyone is interested to learn what can be done, send me an email.
Most pirates on iOS are simply using one of the free tool and don't go far beyond that. I have implemented a technique for detecting pirated app and used it now in many apps: since then the piracy rate went down to zero which convinced that most pirates on iOS are simply using a tool and don't know what to do if the app they try to crack fail.
I am sure that a true pirate will find way to bypass my security check but so far after more that a year of implementing my solution in all my released app I didn't find anymore pirated copy.
If anyone is interested to learn what can be done, send me an email.
> If anyone is interested to learn what can be done, send me an email.
Are you checking that the Mach-O binary is encrypted? I'm not aware of that being worked around by any of the automated tools (and it an approach that is widely discussed).
Are you checking that the Mach-O binary is encrypted? I'm not aware of that being worked around by any of the automated tools (and it an approach that is widely discussed).
That is one of the approach but I combine it with a few other useful ones.
I was wondering about the same thing.. If there was a way to identify the pirated copies, how could one possibly add some advertisements to those apps..
Which would just be circumvented with another jmp.
True, but the vast majority of pirates wouldn't bother.
It would only take one to make it, the rest would then download that.
I'd like to point this out:
http://blog.wolfire.com/2010/05/Another-view-of-game-piracy
To quote:
The highest estimate I've seen is that 10% of worldwide iPhones are jailbroken. Given that there are so few jailbroken phones, how can we explain that 80% of game copies are pirated?
The answer is simple -- the average pirate downloads a lot more games than the average customer buys. This means that even though games see that 80% of their copies are pirated, only 10% of their potential customers are pirates, which means they are losing at most 10% of their sales.
http://blog.wolfire.com/2010/05/Another-view-of-game-piracy
To quote:
The highest estimate I've seen is that 10% of worldwide iPhones are jailbroken. Given that there are so few jailbroken phones, how can we explain that 80% of game copies are pirated?
The answer is simple -- the average pirate downloads a lot more games than the average customer buys. This means that even though games see that 80% of their copies are pirated, only 10% of their potential customers are pirates, which means they are losing at most 10% of their sales.
That logic doesn't actually add up, though.
Let's say 100 people own iphones, 10 of which are jailbroken. 9 of the jailbroken phones have downloaded my game, and one of the 90 non-jailbroken phones has paid for it. Maybe, if they couldn't download illegally, none of the 9 would have bought it, meaning I have lost 0% of my sales. Or maybe all 9 would have bought it, meaning I have lost 90% of my sales.
It doesn't matter if only 10% of "potential" customers can download a game illegally, it matters what % of likely customers do it. And for some developers that will be much higher than average, for others it will be much lower.
Let's say 100 people own iphones, 10 of which are jailbroken. 9 of the jailbroken phones have downloaded my game, and one of the 90 non-jailbroken phones has paid for it. Maybe, if they couldn't download illegally, none of the 9 would have bought it, meaning I have lost 0% of my sales. Or maybe all 9 would have bought it, meaning I have lost 90% of my sales.
It doesn't matter if only 10% of "potential" customers can download a game illegally, it matters what % of likely customers do it. And for some developers that will be much higher than average, for others it will be much lower.
You're not wrong that "some customers are harder to sell to than others." But that's a problem anyone trying to sell something faces.
Also worth noting is that he talks about the disproportionate number of games pirated to games sold across the board. What can you take from that? That pirates are far more likely to pirate a larger number of games than customers will buy.
That's hard to prove, but if there are really that many more pirates in so many games, it certainly makes sense.
Also worth noting is that he talks about the disproportionate number of games pirated to games sold across the board. What can you take from that? That pirates are far more likely to pirate a larger number of games than customers will buy.
That's hard to prove, but if there are really that many more pirates in so many games, it certainly makes sense.
Wait, 90% of users pirating it? I just don't buy it. How many iPhone users jailbreak their phones? 5%? less probably? So those few users are 90% of your user base? These numbers just don't seem right. I would bet the real reason he saw a peak of traffic is something else. He bases his conclusions on how many people click a button, which presumably loads a URL on his server. It could be something as stupid as Google having found the hidden url somehow and indexed it.
I estimate 90% of the people who use my app have pirated it. That is based on server communication with the app that would not be easily duplicated by outside sources like Google crawlers. There is some margin of error: Each purchased copy is able to be installed on up to five devices, for example. But I find it to be still fairly telling.
What is more interesting is that I noticed a dramatic drop in sales when it started to be distributed on the pirate websites. I'm not quite sure what to make of that, but it does give some indication that piracy did affect me.
For what it is worth, my app appeals to the geek crowd. From the data I have been able to acquire, I would say the majority of my users, including legitimate ones, are running jailbroken devices. That may help skew the piracy rates towards the higher end.
Ultimately, I'm not worried about it. I wasn't banking my livelihood on the success of the app. It has made enough money to recoup my time investment, which is an added bonus. I do feel for the users who did pay for my app, however. I do feel that piracy has prevented me from spending more time making the product better for them. That is the real unfortunate side.
What is more interesting is that I noticed a dramatic drop in sales when it started to be distributed on the pirate websites. I'm not quite sure what to make of that, but it does give some indication that piracy did affect me.
For what it is worth, my app appeals to the geek crowd. From the data I have been able to acquire, I would say the majority of my users, including legitimate ones, are running jailbroken devices. That may help skew the piracy rates towards the higher end.
Ultimately, I'm not worried about it. I wasn't banking my livelihood on the success of the app. It has made enough money to recoup my time investment, which is an added bonus. I do feel for the users who did pay for my app, however. I do feel that piracy has prevented me from spending more time making the product better for them. That is the real unfortunate side.
It's not 90% of iPhone owners. It's 90% of the people using his app.
In other words, 90% of his 'customer base' is people who wanted to try it for free, or didn't find it worth paying for, or wouldn't pay for it anyhow.
It's a red herring. It's making him think more people want his app than really do... At least, at the price he's asking.
In other words, 90% of his 'customer base' is people who wanted to try it for free, or didn't find it worth paying for, or wouldn't pay for it anyhow.
It's a red herring. It's making him think more people want his app than really do... At least, at the price he's asking.
There actually is a way to avoid piracy of iOS apps: build an app that requires server-side computation/algorithms of some sort and combine that with the signed receipt capability of in-app purchases. Basically this makes it possible for you to be sure that only a single user of your application is using a single in-app purchase at a time, by validating the signature each time the user launches the app with Apple.
Learn from this. Piracy offers valuable lessons to the budding entrepreneurial programmer. You learn about: consumer behavior, the nature of black markets, iOS piracy tools and techniques.
Quick story: A friend of mine, Carl Lydon, created www.chamberofchat.com, which is an 3D chat-room for Harry Potter Fans that became popular in the early 2000s. This chat-room was promptly infiltrated by a nefarious hacker who assigned himself moderator status and began spewing filth, casting elimination spells, and harassing innocent chatters. At first Carl freaked out but got a hold of himself and re-built a few key modules of his multiplayer log-in code. By the end, the hacker went away, and Carl learned more about security than he ever could have from any one else. A gold-mine of lessons. A fine-art school graduate, he now makes a fortune programming multiplayer online games. Piracy is a gift.
(edit formatting)
Quick story: A friend of mine, Carl Lydon, created www.chamberofchat.com, which is an 3D chat-room for Harry Potter Fans that became popular in the early 2000s. This chat-room was promptly infiltrated by a nefarious hacker who assigned himself moderator status and began spewing filth, casting elimination spells, and harassing innocent chatters. At first Carl freaked out but got a hold of himself and re-built a few key modules of his multiplayer log-in code. By the end, the hacker went away, and Carl learned more about security than he ever could have from any one else. A gold-mine of lessons. A fine-art school graduate, he now makes a fortune programming multiplayer online games. Piracy is a gift.
(edit formatting)
For a seond I thought he was selling a distributed denial of service attack app. Anyway, avoid clicking this if you don't want to get into one of those stupid 'piracy isn't stealing' arguments with people who make them totally po-faced as if it hadn't been said ten million times already.
Build a free version of your app. I suspect some of the pirates want to try your app for free.
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This guy had made a bookmarklet for the same thing a short while back - I think he showed it off on HN too. (not sure - haven't tried looking for the link)
You can get it out here - http://erkie.github.com/
This post and the attention it garnered will bring him more customers than he'd hoped for (customers who will think about what he said, and maybe pitch in that dollar). Whether it was intentional or not, it's a clever marketing ploy I find.
How are they pirating it.. unless they jail-break their phone?
I don't do iphone apps, but I was under the impression Apple controlled the distribution?
I don't do iphone apps, but I was under the impression Apple controlled the distribution?
Yes, the most common way to get jailbroken apps on your phone (Cydia) does not distribute pirated apps, but there is software that will allow you to sync pirated apps through iTunes.
I don't know the details of what you do to crack an .ipa (maybe they're not cracked and are just copied from a legitimate purchase?), but I know if you install something that blocks the iPhone's checks, you can install anything through iTunes.
I don't know the details of what you do to crack an .ipa (maybe they're not cracked and are just copied from a legitimate purchase?), but I know if you install something that blocks the iPhone's checks, you can install anything through iTunes.
I'm not sure if it works anymore. But with the App Store you can download on anyone's device after you pay for it once. For example, I buy Angry Birds, and then I log in on your phone and install Angry Birds on it as a free update. Then I log out of your phone, and Angry Birds is still installed.
I didn't even know it was possible and I did iOS development. Then I saw someone do it and had a WTF moment. He just said that's how everyone he knows 'shares' apps. One guy gets it, and downloads it on everyone else's phone.
I didn't even know it was possible and I did iOS development. Then I saw someone do it and had a WTF moment. He just said that's how everyone he knows 'shares' apps. One guy gets it, and downloads it on everyone else's phone.
The trick is that a particular iPhone can't run around to different people's computers slurping the apps they bought on different iTunes accounts. It can only sync with one computer/iTunes account.
For example, my spouse and I could use the same purchased apps (if we used the same stuff) since we share a single iTunes account and library. I could not sync with my next door neighbor and use all their apps at the same time as I use my own.
For example, my spouse and I could use the same purchased apps (if we used the same stuff) since we share a single iTunes account and library. I could not sync with my next door neighbor and use all their apps at the same time as I use my own.
I think we're describing different things. You're talking about syncing apps with a computer. Sharing libraries between spouses and stuff like that.
I'm talking about this set of steps (on an iPhone/iPad):
1) Go to Settings App
2) Log out of iTunes
3) Log in as Person B
4) Launch App Store
5) Download an app that Person B previously bought. This is a free update.
6) Go to Settings
7) Sign out of Person B's iTunes account
8) Log back in as myself
9) Voila! Launch pirated app which is still on my device without having to jailbreak my phone.
This of course doesn't allow me to update the app because it requires I login as the other person. And yeah, I probably can't sync this rogue app to my computer. But for games and most apps, this is enough. If an app is worth pirating it's probably good enough without the updates. And I turn off app sync because it's annoying. If I really lost my apps I'd just reinstall the ones that mattered.
NB: I don't do this myself. I'm sure if there was a more 'secure' way without being horrible Apple would have done it. Getting apps onto a device for development was/is horrific.
I'm talking about this set of steps (on an iPhone/iPad):
1) Go to Settings App
2) Log out of iTunes
3) Log in as Person B
4) Launch App Store
5) Download an app that Person B previously bought. This is a free update.
6) Go to Settings
7) Sign out of Person B's iTunes account
8) Log back in as myself
9) Voila! Launch pirated app which is still on my device without having to jailbreak my phone.
This of course doesn't allow me to update the app because it requires I login as the other person. And yeah, I probably can't sync this rogue app to my computer. But for games and most apps, this is enough. If an app is worth pirating it's probably good enough without the updates. And I turn off app sync because it's annoying. If I really lost my apps I'd just reinstall the ones that mattered.
NB: I don't do this myself. I'm sure if there was a more 'secure' way without being horrible Apple would have done it. Getting apps onto a device for development was/is horrific.
Is Steam horrible? As far as I know you can log in as another account and download games the other account has and play them, and if you log back into your account the game data doesn't go anywhere (so if you buy you don't have to redownload) but you can't launch them from the steam client. Why didn't Apple do something similar?
No need for single iTunes account and library. There is home sharing feature in iTunes and it allows to share apps simply by dragging and dropping.
Yeah, we started sharing the library before home sharing. I've been thinking about splitting them and using home sharing but the current pain (oh, will you quit iTunes, I need to sync) is less than the pain of changing how we approach things (oh, I need to copy these songs to my Library to put them on the phone).
But they can't update. For that you have to login into the account who bought the app.
You can do this on Steam and PSN also. I don't view this as a significant piracy problem (and apparently neither do Apple, Sony or Valve), because there is an obvious limit of scale. Pirating an app via this method to two or three iphones is fairly trivial, but to distribute it to hundreds or thousands of devices would be a gargantuan task which no-one is likely to do.
Compare this to pirating an .ipa file via bittorrent for jailbroken iphone users, and it's a different story.
Compare this to pirating an .ipa file via bittorrent for jailbroken iphone users, and it's a different story.
Not in Tennessee, though!
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you give away 9 copies to sell 1.
Perhaps you need to give more away and make it easier and then you'll sell more?
Perhaps you need to give more away and make it easier and then you'll sell more?
ON A SIDE NOTE:
http://www.netdisaster.com/ did the exact thing but got shutdown for Phishing. Isnt this the exact same thing?
Sorry, bud. That's the cost of doing business in software.
Yeah, I guess you could dedicate tends of thousands of dollars to 'combat piracy' or some such nonsense. But time an time again as indie creators find out, you treat them kindly but otherwise ignore them.
Of course, that you're on Reddit and HN, you have breached the first barrier: obscurity. If I had an iDevice, I'd try it out.
Yeah, I guess you could dedicate tends of thousands of dollars to 'combat piracy' or some such nonsense. But time an time again as indie creators find out, you treat them kindly but otherwise ignore them.
Of course, that you're on Reddit and HN, you have breached the first barrier: obscurity. If I had an iDevice, I'd try it out.
I wish EA would figure that out. I won't buy another EA game because of their DRM. Not so much that it has it. but it's garbage.
I was one of the idiots that brought a legal copy of Dragon Age 2. Only to be locked out of my account (and game) for a 1/2 week due to the DRM.
I was one of the idiots that brought a legal copy of Dragon Age 2. Only to be locked out of my account (and game) for a 1/2 week due to the DRM.
Just a clarification : I'm not the original poster and this isn't a "Ask HN". I sent a message to the OP on reddit so he can find this thread.
With all the talks about the benefits of the Apple Store, I just found this story interesting. Before, I thought that jailbraking was a niche practice and that the iPhone/iPad were relatively spared from piracy.
With all the talks about the benefits of the Apple Store, I just found this story interesting. Before, I thought that jailbraking was a niche practice and that the iPhone/iPad were relatively spared from piracy.
Charge 99 cents and hope it goes viral!
The application already costs 99c and arguably the bookmarklet the author created did go viral (to the point where I'm still having friends send me links to the asteroids 'web site killer' every few days).
One question on my mind is whether the stats are legit. If it's not some quirk in Apple's reporting system, maybe someone is maliciously hitting the link to the 'site of the day'. Wonder what the logs for that webserver look like - is every user agent an iOS device as expected?
I haven't spent much time digging into the iOS app pirating community, but my expectation is that users are less likely to pirate if there's a free version of the app. What exactly does prompt someone to crack a 99c app and make it available to other users? Why would someone go through the trouble to get it that way when it's so cheap?
One question on my mind is whether the stats are legit. If it's not some quirk in Apple's reporting system, maybe someone is maliciously hitting the link to the 'site of the day'. Wonder what the logs for that webserver look like - is every user agent an iOS device as expected?
I haven't spent much time digging into the iOS app pirating community, but my expectation is that users are less likely to pirate if there's a free version of the app. What exactly does prompt someone to crack a 99c app and make it available to other users? Why would someone go through the trouble to get it that way when it's so cheap?
You will never win the fight. So chalk it up as cost of doing business.
And everything is pirated. I once had a friend of mine hand me a pirated copy of the PDR (the Physicians Desk Reference on CD). I still have it.. though it's out of date by now.
And everything is pirated. I once had a friend of mine hand me a pirated copy of the PDR (the Physicians Desk Reference on CD). I still have it.. though it's out of date by now.
Then you move your code to the server and this never bothers you again. This defeats piracy so well it works in China.