Is it worth starting "from scratch" in web dev? Straight Python, or Django?
18 comments
I'm a big fan of the "build a framework that you'll never use" philosophy. That isn't a joke. You aren't going to be able to match the quality of the thousands upon thousands of hours that have gone into something like Django, but making a framework will make you a better framework user. It makes you understand the flow, what building hooks is like, etc. It also means that you'll be more ready to dive into some of the framework code than someone who just uses a framework.
But that's just my opinion from seeing so many people not understand how frameworks work and try to use them.
But that's just my opinion from seeing so many people not understand how frameworks work and try to use them.
I agree, but I also think using a framework is just as good in the long run...
You basically have hundreds if not thousands of people working on your project with you, fixing bugs, making it faster, more stable, and adding under the hood features. Something you would need to do yourself if you created your own framework.
You basically have hundreds if not thousands of people working on your project with you, fixing bugs, making it faster, more stable, and adding under the hood features. Something you would need to do yourself if you created your own framework.
I think building a framework is an important rite of passage for serious developers, but not at the point that the poster seems to be at. I think you have to know what you don't like in existing frameworks, and have ... I hesitate to use the phrase ... a vision ... for it to be a meaningful experience.
I second this notion.
Also, unless if you really, really think it is good for production use, regard the last part as well. Don't use it. I built a framework that was pretty decent, learned a lot about not just the language but also the framework and the MVC pattern, used it in production and it bit me in the ass later. Why? It wasn't good enough. If you're going go use it, make sure the framework you build isn't decent but excellent, and I'm only saying this because there are people who have written great frameworks before. The problem is that you might get caught up in your own "but I built this so it must kick ass" like I kind of did. Doing so is like using a software package from a sketchy vendor (no offense) and you wouldn't do that, would you?
Also, unless if you really, really think it is good for production use, regard the last part as well. Don't use it. I built a framework that was pretty decent, learned a lot about not just the language but also the framework and the MVC pattern, used it in production and it bit me in the ass later. Why? It wasn't good enough. If you're going go use it, make sure the framework you build isn't decent but excellent, and I'm only saying this because there are people who have written great frameworks before. The problem is that you might get caught up in your own "but I built this so it must kick ass" like I kind of did. Doing so is like using a software package from a sketchy vendor (no offense) and you wouldn't do that, would you?
I agree with you on this, but only if you already know how to write good code. If you're learning how to develop first (or re-learning) I think that it's a road that's going to be paved with frustration.
Were I you, I would start with Django so that I would have an application up and running faster. And then, since Django is open source, start poking around at the internals to see how it works.
I would wait to roll your own web framework until you've had a little more programming time under your belt. Regardless of whether you may be a quick study or not, rolling your own framework is going to have all sorts of strange issues come up, and sometimes it's nice to be able to ask around on a forum, mailing list or IRC for help. Django has one of the largest (if not _the_ largest) Python community; at least as far as currently common frameworks go.
Django is quite nice as a framework as well, it may turn out that it's all you ever need. There are quite a few people out there who use it for every project they work on, with great results.
[Edit: Changed "webapp" to read "web framework"]
I would wait to roll your own web framework until you've had a little more programming time under your belt. Regardless of whether you may be a quick study or not, rolling your own framework is going to have all sorts of strange issues come up, and sometimes it's nice to be able to ask around on a forum, mailing list or IRC for help. Django has one of the largest (if not _the_ largest) Python community; at least as far as currently common frameworks go.
Django is quite nice as a framework as well, it may turn out that it's all you ever need. There are quite a few people out there who use it for every project they work on, with great results.
[Edit: Changed "webapp" to read "web framework"]
undead,
You shouldn't try to learn a language with an application framework. I also recommend you don't try to learn Python with a web app. The web is a crazy hodge-podge of standards and a web-app is complicated by how many different problem domains it has to contend with. Write some programs to organize your mp3 collection or filter your email or something.
Also, keep in mind that if you haven't done a lot of programming it will take quite a lot of experience before you're writing apps that are maintainable and reliable.
You shouldn't try to learn a language with an application framework. I also recommend you don't try to learn Python with a web app. The web is a crazy hodge-podge of standards and a web-app is complicated by how many different problem domains it has to contend with. Write some programs to organize your mp3 collection or filter your email or something.
Also, keep in mind that if you haven't done a lot of programming it will take quite a lot of experience before you're writing apps that are maintainable and reliable.
Offtopic. I'm curious: Why is the comment by ltbarcly dead? Doesn't seem particularily offensive.
I have the [dead] option on and I see often dead comments like this, so I was wondering too. Are some accounts banned or something?
After reading these comments I've realized that trying to "go it alone" in Python is biting off too much at once. It will be too long before I can finish anything usable, and I'll lose motivation.
So, I've decided to aim for "FAST" and use Django to get a working website out the door as soon as possible, and study programming at greater depth on the side (without expecting that effort to pay for itself immediately).
I started going through the book "Practical Django Projects" this evening and it feels right at my level.
Thanks for all your perspectives! I appreciate it a lot.
So, I've decided to aim for "FAST" and use Django to get a working website out the door as soon as possible, and study programming at greater depth on the side (without expecting that effort to pay for itself immediately).
I started going through the book "Practical Django Projects" this evening and it feels right at my level.
Thanks for all your perspectives! I appreciate it a lot.
Building stuff is really the only way I've ever learned anything about programming. Sure, reading a good book on the topic is helpful, but until you've built a few things using it, you don't understand the language|framework|technique.
Sounds like the best plan, definitely.
One thing you should try is WSGI after you're done with the blog. WSGI is a Python-level specification for how to interoperate with a Web server.
It's a layer above FastCGI (if you know what that is) and takes care of all the OS-level things such as network programming (but that is very good to know about).
One thing you'd really want to learn right now is HTTP. It is essential to Web development or design.
One thing you should try is WSGI after you're done with the blog. WSGI is a Python-level specification for how to interoperate with a Web server.
It's a layer above FastCGI (if you know what that is) and takes care of all the OS-level things such as network programming (but that is very good to know about).
One thing you'd really want to learn right now is HTTP. It is essential to Web development or design.
One thing you should be aware of is that Django's philosophy is to cleanly separate between what designers do and what developers do. That's why you don't (by default) get to use Python in your view templates as you would in php/jsp/rails. Instead Django provides yet another mini language just for views, including control sturctures, expressions, etc.
If you are a designer and developer in one person, Django might not be the best match for you, unless you love something else about it (there are many things to love about Django)
I found that I don't use most of what web frameworks provide. But you could argue that just using Django's nice regex based request dispatching is worth it, even if you decide not to use their template engine at all (it's replaceable after all)
To sum it up, what is it that web frameworks do for you? It's basically request dispatching, forms processing (validation and stuff), view templates and ORM. If your applications handle a lot of form to database CRUD, using a framework is helpful. Otherwise you could just as well use naked mod_python because request dispatching is actually rather trivial and python already has a simple template engine built into the language.
If you are a designer and developer in one person, Django might not be the best match for you, unless you love something else about it (there are many things to love about Django)
I found that I don't use most of what web frameworks provide. But you could argue that just using Django's nice regex based request dispatching is worth it, even if you decide not to use their template engine at all (it's replaceable after all)
To sum it up, what is it that web frameworks do for you? It's basically request dispatching, forms processing (validation and stuff), view templates and ORM. If your applications handle a lot of form to database CRUD, using a framework is helpful. Otherwise you could just as well use naked mod_python because request dispatching is actually rather trivial and python already has a simple template engine built into the language.
I usually whip up a dirt-simple "Django-inspired" WSGI microframework (regexp-based url dispatcher, RESTful views, jinja or genshi templates, decoupled optional request and response objects (no shared state between requests), signed-cookie-based sessions, etc.) based on what I need as I go.
Instead of using an ORM, I've discovered an amazingly flexible, efficient DSL for dealing with Postgres. It's called SQL. ;-)
I wrap my model objects around sql queries, so, externally, the objects have a nice ORMey OO interface, but internally I can do all sorts of wonderful Postgresql magic).
After the first time you do it, making a new microframework usually takes less than a day, depending on what else I have to get done. (The reason I reimplement is to prevent myself from adding useless features that I "might" need someday on some future project).
One of these days, I might release one, but strictly as a code-dump example, not as an ongoing project.
(Back on topic, my recommendation to the OP is to start with Django. It's beautifully designed, and has served me well even after I stopped needing its code).
Instead of using an ORM, I've discovered an amazingly flexible, efficient DSL for dealing with Postgres. It's called SQL. ;-)
I wrap my model objects around sql queries, so, externally, the objects have a nice ORMey OO interface, but internally I can do all sorts of wonderful Postgresql magic).
After the first time you do it, making a new microframework usually takes less than a day, depending on what else I have to get done. (The reason I reimplement is to prevent myself from adding useless features that I "might" need someday on some future project).
One of these days, I might release one, but strictly as a code-dump example, not as an ongoing project.
(Back on topic, my recommendation to the OP is to start with Django. It's beautifully designed, and has served me well even after I stopped needing its code).
While I'm not a big fan of PHP in general, the fact that you feel/felt comfortable with ExpressionEngine could mean that a related PHP framework would be a good choice. CodeIgniter (http://codeigniter.com) is similar to what EE is built on, and EllisLab is going to have the next version of EE built directly on CI. It's a really slim framework that doesn't force much on you, so you would get acquainted with PHP in general as well.
Along with that, I think it is a good idea to play with a number of languages and frameworks. To me, the best test is building a simple application in them, a todo list or the like. Try things like Django, Rails, Merb, CodeIgniter, Cake, and others to see what feels most natural and fun to you.
Be sure to also think of what else matters to you about a language/framework. Check out communities, plugins and modules, and the documentation.
Along with that, I think it is a good idea to play with a number of languages and frameworks. To me, the best test is building a simple application in them, a todo list or the like. Try things like Django, Rails, Merb, CodeIgniter, Cake, and others to see what feels most natural and fun to you.
Be sure to also think of what else matters to you about a language/framework. Check out communities, plugins and modules, and the documentation.
I am not a professional developer, and am more akin to a hobbiest programmer/developer, so take this for what it is worth.
Like icey said, pick up Django and learn it - this will get you results far faster and of a higher quality then rolling you own straight out of the gate.
From your post, it sounds like you will be learning to program, learning python and possibly learning Django all at once - an ambitious goal to say the least. Combining the three - centered around Django I think will be the most practical approach for diving in - far easier than learning to program in python and tackling the particulars of designing a web app framework from the ground up. djangobook.com , despite its (over-come-able) errors, will give you a nice base to start from. "Practical Django Projects" is also getting some good reviews, but I have not had the chance to check this one out yet.
I think you will find most of Django relatively easy to learn - and what is not so easy, will highlight some of the tougher aspects of developing a web app framework so you know what to look closer at and beef up on in the case that you do roll your own in the future.
Also, like icey said, once you become versed in Django you can decide to dig around in its internals. This will give you the chance to see what is already optimally designed (no one should reinvent the wheel) and what you can stand reinvention or redesign.
Like icey said, pick up Django and learn it - this will get you results far faster and of a higher quality then rolling you own straight out of the gate.
From your post, it sounds like you will be learning to program, learning python and possibly learning Django all at once - an ambitious goal to say the least. Combining the three - centered around Django I think will be the most practical approach for diving in - far easier than learning to program in python and tackling the particulars of designing a web app framework from the ground up. djangobook.com , despite its (over-come-able) errors, will give you a nice base to start from. "Practical Django Projects" is also getting some good reviews, but I have not had the chance to check this one out yet.
I think you will find most of Django relatively easy to learn - and what is not so easy, will highlight some of the tougher aspects of developing a web app framework so you know what to look closer at and beef up on in the case that you do roll your own in the future.
Also, like icey said, once you become versed in Django you can decide to dig around in its internals. This will give you the chance to see what is already optimally designed (no one should reinvent the wheel) and what you can stand reinvention or redesign.
I write my CGI scripts in C -- but only after writing all the libraries I'm going to want.
There are merits to "understanding what you're doing at a more fundamental level" as you put it -- but that doesn't mean that you should waste time writing the same code many times. Understand it, write a library, and be done with it.
There are merits to "understanding what you're doing at a more fundamental level" as you put it -- but that doesn't mean that you should waste time writing the same code many times. Understand it, write a library, and be done with it.
I think that you might really struggle trying to pick up Django without really understanding programming or Python. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't try, I'm just suggesting that you might struggle. A lot of people approach web frameworks from scratch and think that they can learn it in a couple of weeks and be proficient at them. It takes a lot of time. I'm thinking a good 6 months before becoming proficient.
Sure you can cut and paste the code from the tutorials and have a simple blog application and running in a week, but you won't really have a clue as to what's going on inside the framework.
There are a lot of parts of Python that Django uses that can be a little overwhelming to a noob programmer. For instance, URL's are crafted by using Regular expressions. Regexes might take you a couple of weeks to get your head around if you've never used them before. Django also tends to pass dictionaries around as arguments, which can be confusing and overwhelming if you've never seen them before. Same thing with it's use of list comprehensions under the hood. The use of args, kwargs or variable length arguments can be a bit confusing as well.
So, be patient with yourself. Django is certainly a great framework and well worth the time investment to learn. Python is also a great language, but again, these things take time to learn well.
Sure you can cut and paste the code from the tutorials and have a simple blog application and running in a week, but you won't really have a clue as to what's going on inside the framework.
There are a lot of parts of Python that Django uses that can be a little overwhelming to a noob programmer. For instance, URL's are crafted by using Regular expressions. Regexes might take you a couple of weeks to get your head around if you've never used them before. Django also tends to pass dictionaries around as arguments, which can be confusing and overwhelming if you've never seen them before. Same thing with it's use of list comprehensions under the hood. The use of args, kwargs or variable length arguments can be a bit confusing as well.
So, be patient with yourself. Django is certainly a great framework and well worth the time investment to learn. Python is also a great language, but again, these things take time to learn well.
I believe this was said about django (and a few other frameworks) when you write a site with django you are writing it in django and not python. well, that was the gist of it anyway. I didn't like django myself, I found it fragile, and I don't want my app to break unless I start dropping tables, or deleting code. a insert into should not break my app.
What?
a) Django is a framework in Python. If you are writing a site in django, you are writing it in python. I don't understand what you mean about 'writing it in django'.
b) How is django 'fragile' and how does your app break when you insert?
a) Django is a framework in Python. If you are writing a site in django, you are writing it in python. I don't understand what you mean about 'writing it in django'.
b) How is django 'fragile' and how does your app break when you insert?
If you're doing web development for money, then you should go with whatever is the most expedient solution that produces reasonably attractive results. The danger here of course is that in the long run what's expedient now may lead to problems down the road - such as when you hit a problem the pre-built solution can't handle, or if it causes you to do more work than you would if you only had a better understanding of the underlying technology.
With that said, if you're doing this to try and learn something, then you will be doing yourself a disservice if you don't at least try to roll your own version of everything you will want to do with the web. Even if you start out with your own stuff and decide to swap in freely available components (open source, etc.), at least then you'll understand the infrastructure you're working with at a level you would otherwise not.
With that said, if you're doing this to try and learn something, then you will be doing yourself a disservice if you don't at least try to roll your own version of everything you will want to do with the web. Even if you start out with your own stuff and decide to swap in freely available components (open source, etc.), at least then you'll understand the infrastructure you're working with at a level you would otherwise not.
Any free on inexpensive Python and Django server hosting around for playing around?
Try Google AppEngine. It's free, very easy deployment, and allows Django (minus some things like database) or roll-your-own python against their web API.
Thanks. I was actually reminded of Google App Engine after following wmorein's link to web.py, and then thought about using their webapp framework instead of Django.
I had a similar situation a few months ago. My goals were to get something up and running relatively quickly but it was my first python web app and I wanted to make sure that I actually understood what was going on underneath the covers. I used web.py (http://webpy.org/). Overall I've been pretty happy with it -- it is small enough that looking at the code is actually meaningful to me (although there is definitely some strangeness in there from my perspective) but I also can mostly just write the app and not think about the framework.
I second webpy, especially for a project such as the one the OP is considering -- a small site where knowing what all the code does is at a premium.
I suggest looking at the "Worse Is Better"/"Right Thing" discussion, as it maps perfectly to your situation: http://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html
Worse Is Better gives you fast results with tradeoffs that you already knew of, while Right Thing approaches will allow you to discover hidden problems as you attempt to write the ideal program. So you learn more when you start from scratch, and that is a worthy goal.
Worse Is Better gives you fast results with tradeoffs that you already knew of, while Right Thing approaches will allow you to discover hidden problems as you attempt to write the ideal program. So you learn more when you start from scratch, and that is a worthy goal.
disclaimers: I didn't read the rest of the thread, and i don't use Django (I've been coding C, perl, python and ruby for years, and now rails).
I think the path of least resistance is to learn python and Django well, put some apps up, find out wehre the dev environment on Linux/BSD or mac is strong (editors, test tools, git/SVN), (and maybe make some decent money!).
Then branch out, start digging in to problems that web app frameworks solve, and solutions. These solutions would be the ORM, templating system, admin interface (Django's is admired and frequently copied), debuggers, performance profilers, testing stack, Ajax libs.
Look at the SQL generated, the HTML and CSS, how easy it is to rotate/analyze logs, DNS (subdomains, permanent redirects, etc), monitor/restart the proxy and servers, caching at all levels (pages and fragments, db queries, fixed assets in the browser). Also look at the mechanisms to plug in functionality, e.g. authentication, file uploads, multiple db connections, etc. That should teach you a lot.
I think the path of least resistance is to learn python and Django well, put some apps up, find out wehre the dev environment on Linux/BSD or mac is strong (editors, test tools, git/SVN), (and maybe make some decent money!).
Then branch out, start digging in to problems that web app frameworks solve, and solutions. These solutions would be the ORM, templating system, admin interface (Django's is admired and frequently copied), debuggers, performance profilers, testing stack, Ajax libs.
Look at the SQL generated, the HTML and CSS, how easy it is to rotate/analyze logs, DNS (subdomains, permanent redirects, etc), monitor/restart the proxy and servers, caching at all levels (pages and fragments, db queries, fixed assets in the browser). Also look at the mechanisms to plug in functionality, e.g. authentication, file uploads, multiple db connections, etc. That should teach you a lot.
Use django, not because it's easy to get into, but because later you can use the large number of django apps to get kickstarts into things like adding a forum, blog, etc.
naa.. you are asking the right question.
but let me put it this way. isn't it time that we forget about frameworks, starting from scratch, a lot of code that does the same thing 90% and only 10% innovation? Maybe it is better stitching actual services and "plugging" in the actual difference.
The wheel itself never was invention. It was its use. I bet the time when technology will be obsolete is approaching. It is what we can achieve what matters, not whats in the box.
but let me put it this way. isn't it time that we forget about frameworks, starting from scratch, a lot of code that does the same thing 90% and only 10% innovation? Maybe it is better stitching actual services and "plugging" in the actual difference.
The wheel itself never was invention. It was its use. I bet the time when technology will be obsolete is approaching. It is what we can achieve what matters, not whats in the box.
Maybe you should start thinking in going to another field, where your knowledge is more required?
Right now, if I want to build something more complicated than an online brochure, I need to sell my vision to a coder or investor before I even have a working prototype.
This really sucks. It means I have to over-sell an idea that I don't even know is good yet (because I haven't built it) and then I have to give up equity at the worst possible stage (before I have any traction).
I've got design and management experience under my belt and I'm pretty sure my brain is capable of enjoying playing with code, too. So I'm choosing this path to amplify what I'm capable of doing in life, and to follow my gut.
This really sucks. It means I have to over-sell an idea that I don't even know is good yet (because I haven't built it) and then I have to give up equity at the worst possible stage (before I have any traction).
I've got design and management experience under my belt and I'm pretty sure my brain is capable of enjoying playing with code, too. So I'm choosing this path to amplify what I'm capable of doing in life, and to follow my gut.
I just was telling you what in my experience worked best for me.
I worked in game development for many years... from my own studio. Very successful on that, but I started to get bored of that. I wanted to use my brain more. I was selling games for advertising so in a way it was like making online brochures, though they didn't work online (they were developed for trade shows mostly). So I started shifting fields, slowly changing my game dev skills and experience for other field skills and experience. I can say it worked for me in many ways, but it wasn't easy. However, I couldn't think of a better option than that. If game advertising isn't what makes me happy anymore, I shouldn't be working on that anymore. And probably that works for you too.
I worked in game development for many years... from my own studio. Very successful on that, but I started to get bored of that. I wanted to use my brain more. I was selling games for advertising so in a way it was like making online brochures, though they didn't work online (they were developed for trade shows mostly). So I started shifting fields, slowly changing my game dev skills and experience for other field skills and experience. I can say it worked for me in many ways, but it wasn't easy. However, I couldn't think of a better option than that. If game advertising isn't what makes me happy anymore, I shouldn't be working on that anymore. And probably that works for you too.
Well -- you are right. I'm leaving a company that began as an entrepreneurial venture for me, but then morphed into something where I was to wait several years for my shares (~15%) to vest, during which time I'd basically be a professional manager, grinding the 9-5 without control of the business.
Sucked my heart right out from my rear end is what that did. So it is indeed time for me to find something that makes me more happy!
Sucked my heart right out from my rear end is what that did. So it is indeed time for me to find something that makes me more happy!
Good luck!!! You'll surely make it!
I started with Dreamweaver, and then gradually learned how to write HTML and CSS from scratch. I then used Dreamweaver to patch together PHP/MySQL for database-driven sites, until I switched to ExpressionEngine because it met my needs for a flexible back-end database to run my sites from.
I've always been strong in design, and so regardless of how patchy my back-end has been, the results have spoken for themselves and achieved my goals. Good writing and design have compensated for a shitty back end (though in time, my HTMl and CSS have become acceptable in quality).
But whenever I talk to someone who knows how to program, it seems like slicing butter for them to do what's required for a web app. Like they can spend a few hours and have something that works. And I've always been strong in math and logic, so I think programming is not a bad fit for the way my brain works.
So here's my situation. I'm getting back into web dev after a couple years of management/product dev in a startup, and I want to build something that kicks ass -- but to start I just want to build a new blog for myself.
I'm asking myself whether I should (1) keep using ExpressionEngine or something similar, in order to get the fastest results possible (I'm not actually too interested in this option anymore); (2) use Python with Django, to benefit from what a framework offers; or (3) use Python to code something from scratch, with the aim to understand what I am doing at a more fundamental level.
I'm looking to strike the right balance between getting shit done fast, that just works, versus doing things in a more sustainable way (ie. actually understanding how to program and benefiting from the resulting flexibility and power).
Anyone have comments on this trade-off / what kind of learning curve to expect as I debate whether or not to use a framework like Django for my first real Python app?
I read through a couple books on Python this spring and liked it (but am by no means proficient yet), so that's my language of choice. The question is simply how deep to go. I want to spend the right amount of time learning, without heaping an unattainable amount of work on my shoulders so that I can never get anywhere.
(If I continue with python I'll probably also continue with the book "Software Engineering for Internet Applications" which I also started this spring.)
Also feel free to let me know if I'm even asking the right questions. I just hate the idea of wasting months of my time on the wrong path.