Ask HN: Why shouldn't I drop out of college to do a startup?
24 comments
Ok. Your in college. In theory, you have more time now than later, when you might need a real job, to start a business.
Don't drop out until you have an income from your new business. If you are truly passionate about starting something, and it's obsessing you, you shouldn't need to 'drop out' to get it going.
And even then, when you have INCOME from this endeavor, you'd just be taking a break. It's insurance, really. A degree, however not worth it's weight in paper, will open doors for you.
But so would a hit startup. You could have the next facebook in you. So make it happen, but try, as long as you can, to hold on to the most unique time in your life, the experience of undergrad.
Cherish it and respect it. Leave it when your new venture makes it so clear it's no longer a question you would ask a group.
Leave it when it's obvious.
Don't drop out until you have an income from your new business. If you are truly passionate about starting something, and it's obsessing you, you shouldn't need to 'drop out' to get it going.
And even then, when you have INCOME from this endeavor, you'd just be taking a break. It's insurance, really. A degree, however not worth it's weight in paper, will open doors for you.
But so would a hit startup. You could have the next facebook in you. So make it happen, but try, as long as you can, to hold on to the most unique time in your life, the experience of undergrad.
Cherish it and respect it. Leave it when your new venture makes it so clear it's no longer a question you would ask a group.
Leave it when it's obvious.
The problem: this wonderful time of college is being dragged through the mud by my resistance to doing the work required (less for the CS, though). It's incredibly painful, not to mention cutting significantly into time to do anything at all. You can't let yourself go out and meet people - or hack - when you really need to do this assignment for tomorrow.
I do need to drop out to get the startup going, because trying to make myself do the work takes up all my time - and since I'm not willing to just do college work and nothing else, I'm in between a rock and a hard place.
And, the reason why I'm asking HN is to check that I haven't missed (even more) obvious pitfalls. And to see what everyone has to say, gather advice, etc. (Thank you all btw.)
Edit: why the downvote?
I do need to drop out to get the startup going, because trying to make myself do the work takes up all my time - and since I'm not willing to just do college work and nothing else, I'm in between a rock and a hard place.
And, the reason why I'm asking HN is to check that I haven't missed (even more) obvious pitfalls. And to see what everyone has to say, gather advice, etc. (Thank you all btw.)
Edit: why the downvote?
"The problem: this wonderful time of college is being dragged through the mud by my resistance to doing the work required (less for the CS, though). It's incredibly painful, not to mention cutting significantly into time to do anything at all. You can't let yourself go out and meet people - or hack - when you really need to do this assignment for tomorrow."
Sounds like you need to work on some self discipline. If you can get your social life, studies, hacking, and business efforts under control, THEN I would suggest you should go for the monumental jump and "drop out". If you think you'll have more time when your startup takes off, think again. If you are interested in VC funding at some point, then you might find it challenging when they step in and start calling shots and start telling you directly what you need to do in order to make things successful - some of it might be stuff you will resist in the same way you seem to be resisting your college work.
You sound like a young, intelligent, and energetic guy...see if you can get yourself organized such that every aspect of your college life is organized to the point of efficiency. If you can accomplish that, then you surely will have the management mettle to make a startup successful. Self discipline is an extremely important quality when undertaking something ambitious such as a startup. It seems to me that you should acquire self discipline and other important skills that are not directly related to the technical aspect of doing a startup before dropping out.
Sounds like you need to work on some self discipline. If you can get your social life, studies, hacking, and business efforts under control, THEN I would suggest you should go for the monumental jump and "drop out". If you think you'll have more time when your startup takes off, think again. If you are interested in VC funding at some point, then you might find it challenging when they step in and start calling shots and start telling you directly what you need to do in order to make things successful - some of it might be stuff you will resist in the same way you seem to be resisting your college work.
You sound like a young, intelligent, and energetic guy...see if you can get yourself organized such that every aspect of your college life is organized to the point of efficiency. If you can accomplish that, then you surely will have the management mettle to make a startup successful. Self discipline is an extremely important quality when undertaking something ambitious such as a startup. It seems to me that you should acquire self discipline and other important skills that are not directly related to the technical aspect of doing a startup before dropping out.
Could it just be that college doesn't really fit me?
I have learnt some self-discipline, actually. I'm sitting down, but I'm not working. Everything takes 10 times longer than it should, and every minute is very painful. I can count on two hands the number of times I've gone out and partied. I don't hack when I have stuff due.
I've had the 'perfect point of efficiency' vision in my head for a while, but I'm stumbling on the first block. I have a pretty good head for being organized, but the execution is lacking. I also have ADHD, apparently (I've learnt an awful lot about software engineering by failing to (be able to) follow through plans to do assignments, actually). So in some ways I'm trying to get around the executive functioning problem by doing something that I clearly want to do, instead of something I'm doing because it's what you do when you finish HS.
Of course, it might just because I'm dumb. Other people seem to think I'm smart, though (case in point above), and that's the only measure, aside from schoolwork, that I've witnessed.
I'm not dropping out to buy time, I'm dropping out to buy a task that I'm more willing to do.
I have learnt some self-discipline, actually. I'm sitting down, but I'm not working. Everything takes 10 times longer than it should, and every minute is very painful. I can count on two hands the number of times I've gone out and partied. I don't hack when I have stuff due.
I've had the 'perfect point of efficiency' vision in my head for a while, but I'm stumbling on the first block. I have a pretty good head for being organized, but the execution is lacking. I also have ADHD, apparently (I've learnt an awful lot about software engineering by failing to (be able to) follow through plans to do assignments, actually). So in some ways I'm trying to get around the executive functioning problem by doing something that I clearly want to do, instead of something I'm doing because it's what you do when you finish HS.
Of course, it might just because I'm dumb. Other people seem to think I'm smart, though (case in point above), and that's the only measure, aside from schoolwork, that I've witnessed.
I'm not dropping out to buy time, I'm dropping out to buy a task that I'm more willing to do.
My grandfather has a saying - "The mind is like a diamond in the rough and education is polish for the mind". It's very well possible that college doesn't fit you or that you don't fit college. At the same time please consider that if you hunker down and slog through it, you might have a large awareness for opportunities that make themselves apparent by the time you finish with college. If you drop out consider that your awareness to what's hot might be confined to what you are tuned into at the moment; I will not discount that you might possess the ability to spot what's hot in a few years from now, but I will say that having an education will definitely help with this skill.
Consider taking a quarter/semester off or perhaps even a year off, but don't commit to fully "dropping out". I would also recommend talking to a counselor (somebody with a PhD). This is going to sound funny, but try to get in touch with your feelings about your current situation.
One thing that should be a concern for you is that you have asked a fairly well known community for reasons why you shouldn't do something, yet you seem to have plenty of counter arguments/responses to people's postings. Sometimes people are going to tell you things you don't want to hear. Does this mean you should follow their advice? Not necessarily; however you should think about it and give it some more thought.
For real dude, I wish you the best. Just think about it before actually committing to it.
Consider taking a quarter/semester off or perhaps even a year off, but don't commit to fully "dropping out". I would also recommend talking to a counselor (somebody with a PhD). This is going to sound funny, but try to get in touch with your feelings about your current situation.
One thing that should be a concern for you is that you have asked a fairly well known community for reasons why you shouldn't do something, yet you seem to have plenty of counter arguments/responses to people's postings. Sometimes people are going to tell you things you don't want to hear. Does this mean you should follow their advice? Not necessarily; however you should think about it and give it some more thought.
For real dude, I wish you the best. Just think about it before actually committing to it.
I'm taking the summer quarter off from Monday, so I'll see what happens. I definitely agree with your grandfather, though - I have been in college for two years, and I've witnessed the polishing on myself.
I've been talking to a lot (4+) of people with PhDs, both counselor and not, regularly for over a year now. I think I understand what you mean by getting in touch with my feelings. It's difficult to do it myself, and since I have so many theories, difficult to do with anyone else, as well.
I've been a little obsessive in the replying. I certainly don't mean to be rude! I think I'm too impulsive, and trying to have the wrong kind of conversation here.
Thanks, though, for your time.
I've been talking to a lot (4+) of people with PhDs, both counselor and not, regularly for over a year now. I think I understand what you mean by getting in touch with my feelings. It's difficult to do it myself, and since I have so many theories, difficult to do with anyone else, as well.
I've been a little obsessive in the replying. I certainly don't mean to be rude! I think I'm too impulsive, and trying to have the wrong kind of conversation here.
Thanks, though, for your time.
Having done what you're thinking about doing, I could probably write pages on the pros and cons, but I'll boil it down to probably the most important reason:
It's hard to go at it alone.
I say that if you don't have a solid cofounder who has your back, an idea and implementation that you're willing to bet your career on, or an extraordinary opportunity that won't be there when you graduate, you should get your degree first and hack in your spare time until then. If you don't have connections, a job with your name on it, significant coding experience, a compelling product, or funding, you're going to have a hard time finding work or even in convincing people to work with you.
That said, programming jobs and startups are much more forgiving in the education category than just about any other job. If you've got the skills and have something to back it up, then you've definitely got a shot.
It's not impossible to succeed, but if you don't have a way to support yourself, it's that much harder. Just know what you're getting yourself into. While you will learn a lot if you drop out and do a start up, know the opportunity costs of what you are going to do.
It's hard to go at it alone.
I say that if you don't have a solid cofounder who has your back, an idea and implementation that you're willing to bet your career on, or an extraordinary opportunity that won't be there when you graduate, you should get your degree first and hack in your spare time until then. If you don't have connections, a job with your name on it, significant coding experience, a compelling product, or funding, you're going to have a hard time finding work or even in convincing people to work with you.
That said, programming jobs and startups are much more forgiving in the education category than just about any other job. If you've got the skills and have something to back it up, then you've definitely got a shot.
It's not impossible to succeed, but if you don't have a way to support yourself, it's that much harder. Just know what you're getting yourself into. While you will learn a lot if you drop out and do a start up, know the opportunity costs of what you are going to do.
I think I have the skills. And I have some runway to burn (savings, that is).
I actually have an idea that a friend and I have been working on for a while. I'm not satisfied with it yet - but it's getting closer, with each mulling, I think. It's college-related, so we're launching it for Fall term. I'm pretty sure he'll drop out of college with me for the idea, esp. if it works or if we get YC. There's also a hacker friend in princeton who I might be able to convince to drop out with us.
I've thought a lot about going it alone, and it's incredibly scary, but I think I've got the guts for it, too. Of course, I'd rather go with the plan above, until it falls apart, anyway.
Edit: This was very devoid of replying content, sorry. I think I've just had enough of college and want to try something else, mainly because I don't have any spare time. I only barely have a few of the things on your list though - so the real question is, should I still take the jump, and what should I look out for?
I actually have an idea that a friend and I have been working on for a while. I'm not satisfied with it yet - but it's getting closer, with each mulling, I think. It's college-related, so we're launching it for Fall term. I'm pretty sure he'll drop out of college with me for the idea, esp. if it works or if we get YC. There's also a hacker friend in princeton who I might be able to convince to drop out with us.
I've thought a lot about going it alone, and it's incredibly scary, but I think I've got the guts for it, too. Of course, I'd rather go with the plan above, until it falls apart, anyway.
Edit: This was very devoid of replying content, sorry. I think I've just had enough of college and want to try something else, mainly because I don't have any spare time. I only barely have a few of the things on your list though - so the real question is, should I still take the jump, and what should I look out for?
What's the argument(s) against just dropping out now and starting something up?
As someone currently on indefinite leave from college to work on my startup... I think you have the order backwards. Get something going first, and when it is going so well that it would be foolish not to work on it full-time, then take the plunge. College is an excellent (and safe) place to throw a bunch of ideas at the wall and see what sticks.
As someone currently on indefinite leave from college to work on my startup... I think you have the order backwards. Get something going first, and when it is going so well that it would be foolish not to work on it full-time, then take the plunge. College is an excellent (and safe) place to throw a bunch of ideas at the wall and see what sticks.
What if you have no time to throw ideas against the wall because it takes all your effort + time to do college work? It's a safe place, but very, very painful to be in.
I'm in the process of throwing an idea against the wall right now, we'll see if it sticks.
Edit: (I'm not trying to be rude/argumentative btw - I'm sorry if I was. I'm a little confused now, and will go think more.)
I'm in the process of throwing an idea against the wall right now, we'll see if it sticks.
Edit: (I'm not trying to be rude/argumentative btw - I'm sorry if I was. I'm a little confused now, and will go think more.)
The only answer I can give to that is "make time." Take easier classes, don't worry about getting an A on every assignment. I wasn't so much referring to the actual classes you take while at college, but to the environment.
If you're going to play the "startup lottery" then you better damn well have something that is worth more than the time you'd spend towards getting a degree.
I think I'm more idealistic than that - I've spent a lot of effort trying to get a degree, and I just don't see the point in it. When I don't win the lottery, the tentative plan is to hang around and badger startups until they let me do stuff for them.
When that doesn't work, I suppose I could always come back to college, financial aid willing.
When that doesn't work, I suppose I could always come back to college, financial aid willing.
Dude, you are in a unique opportunity to hammer out a fantastic work ethic. You do seem to have a drive to get somewhere, that is for certain.
Sometimes a decision you make isn't black and white. Remember, you can use logic to rationalize decisions that other parties may see as illogical (e.g. your well-meaning parents). They say if you want to buy something really badly - wait 30 days and then see if you want to buy it. I'd like to suggest the same - wait at least 30 days before deciding.
College, in short, is a basic requirement to get a white-collar type job in the United States. If you drop out of college, you are differentiating yourself (in a bad way) from getting hired at a typical company. Startups are more flexible when it comes to hiring.
I would have lunch with a mentor who is at the stage where you would like to be in 2-3 years and ask them for their honest opinion. If you don't have a mentor, focus on finding one this summer. You can even email people you don't know but admire for their advice - asking doesn't hurt.
College, in short, is a basic requirement to get a white-collar type job in the United States. If you drop out of college, you are differentiating yourself (in a bad way) from getting hired at a typical company. Startups are more flexible when it comes to hiring.
I would have lunch with a mentor who is at the stage where you would like to be in 2-3 years and ask them for their honest opinion. If you don't have a mentor, focus on finding one this summer. You can even email people you don't know but admire for their advice - asking doesn't hurt.
Totally agree about the work. My theory on CS work was that as long as I was learning something on a computer it didn't matter if it was for class or not. That ended up being a good theory that's served me well.
When I was at Odeo we did a survey of the office to see who had degrees. I'm pretty sure it was just me and the other middle manager. That's pretty sad, since the fun part of a startup is either being the decider or the doer. Of course both of us went on to start companies, so maybe it doesn't really matter.
Yeah, that's what I want to say. It doesn't matter in a general sense. What does matter, and I've found this to be very true as a founder, is to do things your way. There's no one set of magic advice so you just have to figure out the things that work for you. If school doesn't work for you and startup success is more important than the college social life, then drop out and go for it. If you're more methodical (like me) then graduate, join a startup, learn some lessons, then found your own company.
When I was at Odeo we did a survey of the office to see who had degrees. I'm pretty sure it was just me and the other middle manager. That's pretty sad, since the fun part of a startup is either being the decider or the doer. Of course both of us went on to start companies, so maybe it doesn't really matter.
Yeah, that's what I want to say. It doesn't matter in a general sense. What does matter, and I've found this to be very true as a founder, is to do things your way. There's no one set of magic advice so you just have to figure out the things that work for you. If school doesn't work for you and startup success is more important than the college social life, then drop out and go for it. If you're more methodical (like me) then graduate, join a startup, learn some lessons, then found your own company.
I think 'doing things my way' probably defines me as a person - if anything, college has shown me that I absolutely flat out will not do it not my way - at least, without some serious, serious self-grinding.
The CS classes have been good, but pretty mindless, unfortunately. It's a good school and a good program, but I think I could do most of the classes in at least half the time. Except the math ones. Granted, I haven't taken that many higher-level ones yet, because I've had such problems fulfilling the first-year requirements.
Really, I'm just throwing the question out there and seeing what comes back :)
The CS classes have been good, but pretty mindless, unfortunately. It's a good school and a good program, but I think I could do most of the classes in at least half the time. Except the math ones. Granted, I haven't taken that many higher-level ones yet, because I've had such problems fulfilling the first-year requirements.
Really, I'm just throwing the question out there and seeing what comes back :)
As someone else on this site said once, getting into college in the first place is actually more influential on the rest of your life than graduating. You can always go back.
Then again, college is to a certain extent what you make of it. You have opportunities there that you're unlikely to get again. Another option you should consider is changing majors. Astronomy or Egyptology or something that's just interesting with little or no direct practical application. After all, you've already got the skills you need to earn a living.
Then again, college is to a certain extent what you make of it. You have opportunities there that you're unlikely to get again. Another option you should consider is changing majors. Astronomy or Egyptology or something that's just interesting with little or no direct practical application. After all, you've already got the skills you need to earn a living.
I'm a CS and math major already, but I'm at a liberal arts college. I've learnt a lot forcing myself to write english literature papers, but I think I'd have fared better, academically, if I just went to MIT.
MIT has compulsory English Lit etc too, AFAIK.
Oh. Well, I know nothing about MIT. I was discouraged from applying there because they don't have good financial aid - for international students. It turns out I'm not international after all, but who knew.
I quite liked english literature, actually. I just like hacking more... much more.
The thing is: I find liberal arts a very good idea, almost in the stereotypical way. I think by comparing perspectives, and doing lots of different disciplines seeds one's mind with lots of different ways of looking.
I quite liked english literature, actually. I just like hacking more... much more.
The thing is: I find liberal arts a very good idea, almost in the stereotypical way. I think by comparing perspectives, and doing lots of different disciplines seeds one's mind with lots of different ways of looking.
Maybe you should have gone to college in England. 3 year Bachelors programmes, but you pretty much do only what you're majoring in, which you decide in advance (i.e. when you're still in high school, which we call 6th Form). I did Mech Eng and I think we had the option of doing one course a year (out of 6-8 courses/year total) outside the department, and quite a few people didn't even do that.
Yup - I've heard that I would have liked Oxbridge very much. Apparently they just give you the syllabus and a reading list and meet you once a week to keep you on track? If I had known that when I was choosing colleges, I'd have jumped at it immediately.
I didn't consider the English system (though I'm somewhat a product of it) since I didn't want to specialize. It turns out not specializing was more excruciatingly difficult than I thought it would be, so now I'm deciding whether to run in the opposite direction.
I didn't consider the English system (though I'm somewhat a product of it) since I didn't want to specialize. It turns out not specializing was more excruciatingly difficult than I thought it would be, so now I'm deciding whether to run in the opposite direction.
As someone who is trying desperately to get back into school, do as brianr said.
Stay in school, throw ideas at the wall, see what sticks, go from there.
By all means though, try to finish your degree though.
Even the greatest of minds can fail due to circumstance, when it comes to things like a start-up.
Stay in school, throw ideas at the wall, see what sticks, go from there.
By all means though, try to finish your degree though.
Even the greatest of minds can fail due to circumstance, when it comes to things like a start-up.
It's a very scary notion to "put my best foot forward", but I think I'm ready. A lot of my friends here are saying "no don't do it", though, so I thought I'd ask a crowd that might give me an answer I like more. (Admittedly, asking college students about dropping out of college is a little backwards.)