Ask HN: Technical roles without technical interviews?
12 comments
Honestly, I think it's a sign of the times. We might be at the peak here. I have recently interviewed at a couple of "AI" labs at banks and some MLE positions at insurance companies and one startup, and they are all requiring leetcode. Most of them have asked dynamic programming questions and expected working solutions in 20 mins. IMO it's a sign of higher supply than demand. I think it's about to get much much worse with many companies moving to remote work, meaning we are competing with folks in countries like India (no offence meant here, it's just a product of the education system) who are much hungrier and will literally do every possible Leetcode problem out there.
I think we are about to experience a tech bubble bursting type of situation (especially given the over inflated valuations + ridiculous stock prices of FAANG), meaning much less jobs, much higher competition and a whole world of pain, which will result in many folks leaving this profession (especially those with little experience and with no real formal education).
Now with the emergence of things like GPT-3 expect further automation of annoying software dev tasks and a lot of front end roles transforming or going away entirely. I think future devs will need more ML exposure and experience as that will become a standard part of the job soon enough, and we might enter an era of growth after the bust with much more ML integration into products and new companies forming around that.
In 5 years, the world of software dev will be a different place.
In the meantime, take a vacation, relax your brain, understand that most of us are getting rejected and it has little to do with our skill, and get back to leetcoding if you want those high paying cushy jobs. Use the smaller companies who insist of pretending they are FAANG as practice, and aim for FAANG my friend.
That's the best advice I can give because I feel the same pain and that's what I'm doing.
I think we are about to experience a tech bubble bursting type of situation (especially given the over inflated valuations + ridiculous stock prices of FAANG), meaning much less jobs, much higher competition and a whole world of pain, which will result in many folks leaving this profession (especially those with little experience and with no real formal education).
Now with the emergence of things like GPT-3 expect further automation of annoying software dev tasks and a lot of front end roles transforming or going away entirely. I think future devs will need more ML exposure and experience as that will become a standard part of the job soon enough, and we might enter an era of growth after the bust with much more ML integration into products and new companies forming around that.
In 5 years, the world of software dev will be a different place.
In the meantime, take a vacation, relax your brain, understand that most of us are getting rejected and it has little to do with our skill, and get back to leetcoding if you want those high paying cushy jobs. Use the smaller companies who insist of pretending they are FAANG as practice, and aim for FAANG my friend.
That's the best advice I can give because I feel the same pain and that's what I'm doing.
Thanks for the comment. I pretty much feel the same way as you, especially the bit about a higher supply than demand and the expectation that it will only get worse.
I appreciate the advice of relaxing for a bit. Although I wouldn't want to wish this on anyone, it is a bit relieving to hear that others are experience something similar. Best of luck to you
I appreciate the advice of relaxing for a bit. Although I wouldn't want to wish this on anyone, it is a bit relieving to hear that others are experience something similar. Best of luck to you
Yes I’ll second this. I’ve been through interviews recently and, given the current climate, it’s pretty gruelling compared to this time last year.
Most of them had 3 stages and a technical task that was expected to be your best work ever.
You’re not alone in feeling this way so just stick at it until the right role comes along. Read, study and improve in the meantime while you prepare for each interview. You’ll come out the other end a stronger engineer.
Most of them had 3 stages and a technical task that was expected to be your best work ever.
You’re not alone in feeling this way so just stick at it until the right role comes along. Read, study and improve in the meantime while you prepare for each interview. You’ll come out the other end a stronger engineer.
I’ll say that I‘ve dipped my toes recently as well, and sense it might be a real buyers market.
I also could just suck. Like all things, the answer is probably some combination.
I also could just suck. Like all things, the answer is probably some combination.
Great thoughts. What changes in the industry are you expecting from GPT-3?
I have a mitigated opinion about technical interviews. I know several companies hiring mostly in the employees’ network, so technical interview is not really necessary. Good references are far better than any whiteboard test.
On the other end, by hiring only in your network, the result is often companies lacking diversity. If you only work with people you know, you’ll probably work with people from the same schools, same social class, same experiences, etc. as you. At least technical interviews are more objective and give a chance to people with diverse backgrounds.
We can probably find a proper mix between network and technical interviews. In my opinion the technical interviews should be here to select candidates as a prior step to any other interview. So they should be quite easy. (I’m always surprised by the proportion on candidates to fail in very easy technical tests.) The true candidate evaluation should be done according to soft skills: ability to communicate, curiosity, desire to learn and help people, etc.
On the other end, by hiring only in your network, the result is often companies lacking diversity. If you only work with people you know, you’ll probably work with people from the same schools, same social class, same experiences, etc. as you. At least technical interviews are more objective and give a chance to people with diverse backgrounds.
We can probably find a proper mix between network and technical interviews. In my opinion the technical interviews should be here to select candidates as a prior step to any other interview. So they should be quite easy. (I’m always surprised by the proportion on candidates to fail in very easy technical tests.) The true candidate evaluation should be done according to soft skills: ability to communicate, curiosity, desire to learn and help people, etc.
Makes sense to me, thanks for the perspective.
This must be an American thing. In Europe it's pretty rare to find tech companies that do whiteboard questions and/or leetcode. The usual standard is one meeting with HR and the head of engineering (and/or a senior engineer) that ask you: tell me about yourself, what do you think about OOP, distributed systems, how to scale servers, Solid principles and some common patterns. If any, they invite you to an on-site meeting with the team to see if the team likes you... and that's all.
I'm not talking about FAANG (because, honesty, 99.9% of us don't work/will never work for a FAANG. And this includes HN folks as well. So it's pretty useless to take FAANG as examples of anything).
I'm not talking about FAANG (because, honesty, 99.9% of us don't work/will never work for a FAANG. And this includes HN folks as well. So it's pretty useless to take FAANG as examples of anything).
Oh wow I can’t believe and its very surprising for me
Looks like i gotta move to europe because this interviewing is very stressful
How many interviews have you done like this? I am in Europe and my graduate interviews were similar to this but I assumed more experienced interviews would be more leetcode style..
I can't speak to the quality, but I've seen this "no whiteboard" job posting website mentioned before: https://nowhiteboards.io/. That being said, it seems like many of them (at least on the front page) still require pair programming and/or a take home assignment.
Most of the apply links soft 404. Shame because I like the concept :/
Thanks for the suggestion
I can verify that at least some of those companies listed there have whiteboarded/leetcoded me.
I also feel it is frustrating. I have some good experience, lead a team of seniors and implement very complex software solutions in a big company.
Still, when I send a CV, I receive a leetcode challenge that I have no desire to study for and that doesn't represent my skillset or what I will be working with.
Is frankly very upsetting. That is before even talking with a human being.
Still, when I send a CV, I receive a leetcode challenge that I have no desire to study for and that doesn't represent my skillset or what I will be working with.
Is frankly very upsetting. That is before even talking with a human being.
> I've been interviewing non-stop for a few months. For a few months prior to interviewing I watched computer science lectures online, read CTCI, and had a premium Leetcode subscription with a good amount of practice.
> I haven't done mock interviews with a friend, but I did pay for a few mock technical interviews.
Chances are that, given such extensive preparation, it's not really the technical part that is the problem, if you haven't been able to get an offer after going through a full process at 15 companies. Of course, it might be a severe case of bad luck, but I'd bet that your anxiety and stress are somehow leaking through. Did you self-reflect on that, and if yes, what are your thoughts?
> I haven't done mock interviews with a friend, but I did pay for a few mock technical interviews.
Chances are that, given such extensive preparation, it's not really the technical part that is the problem, if you haven't been able to get an offer after going through a full process at 15 companies. Of course, it might be a severe case of bad luck, but I'd bet that your anxiety and stress are somehow leaking through. Did you self-reflect on that, and if yes, what are your thoughts?
The easy answer you might not like: interview at small places that don't have a lot of existing technical experience and don't pay very well. I've had 3 jobs now at small agencies (3-4 devs) that paid under $100k and none of them required any sort of technical interview. One looked at a project I had on Github and asked me to talk about it for a bit. Another just hired me without any real proof of my ability, just what I said I could do. Another just asked general interview questions. If you're fine building CRUD apps all day every day for sometimes pretty dumb projects with often dumb technology choices and no opportunity for upward advancement, it's a fine job.
Well, there are three ways you can do this, at least from what I've seen/heard.
1. Become enough of an expert/authority in your field that you're hired on the work you've done in the past. If you're a superstar that invented a game changing JavaScript framework or open source project used by millions, people aren't gonna throw you into a technical interview before hiring you.
2. Find companies your friends/acquaintances work for and get the job through your connections rather than a formal interview process.
3. Apply for jobs at smaller or less technically focused companies where interviews are a bit more traditional (and often come down to a quick chat over a coffee or something).
1. Become enough of an expert/authority in your field that you're hired on the work you've done in the past. If you're a superstar that invented a game changing JavaScript framework or open source project used by millions, people aren't gonna throw you into a technical interview before hiring you.
2. Find companies your friends/acquaintances work for and get the job through your connections rather than a formal interview process.
3. Apply for jobs at smaller or less technically focused companies where interviews are a bit more traditional (and often come down to a quick chat over a coffee or something).
1. Become enough of an expert/authority in your field that you're hired on the work you've done in the past. If you're a superstar that invented a game changing JavaScript framework or open source project used by millions, people aren't gonna throw you into a technical interview before hiring you.
That depends. There's the case of the person who wrote brew being asked technical questions to work at Apple.
In smaller fields, maybe. In FAANG I believe you would still go through the pipeline.
On (2) likewise for a FAANG
That depends. There's the case of the person who wrote brew being asked technical questions to work at Apple.
In smaller fields, maybe. In FAANG I believe you would still go through the pipeline.
On (2) likewise for a FAANG
Thanks for the tips, those do seem practical.
Hey I think you might be referencing to no white boarding. The easiest way to do this is to show your technical ability which might give the interviewer the confidence that you are the right one and leverage your network because that always helps.
You can show your abilities by building side projects,communicating the communities,writing blogs or even contributing to the open source communities
You can show your abilities by building side projects,communicating the communities,writing blogs or even contributing to the open source communities
Thanks for the comment. Those are some good areas where I can show my expertise.
Are you saying you went through the leetcode/hackerrank daily preparation routine for a couple of months, but you are still getting nervous during interviews? If so, why do you think that is? Are you comfortable solving those programming puzzles outside of the interviews? Have you timed yourself? Have you done mock interviews with a friend?
I've been interviewing non-stop for a few months. For a few months prior to interviewing I watched computer science lectures online, read CTCI, and had a premium Leetcode subscription with a good amount of practice.
I haven't done mock interviews with a friend, but I did pay for a few mock technical interviews.
I much prefer technical assessments that are related to the day-to day. In either case, I'm much more comfortable working alone than I am with someone watching in an interview. I've only ever worked alone and in these interviews I have a hard time concentrating.
I'm not someone who can talk out loud and code at the same time. When I'm coming up with a solution I think about a potential solution, recognize why it won't work, and then go on to the next idea. I feel like this happens rapidly in my head, but if I were to "talk out loud" I would just be constantly saying why things won't work and it would take so much longer to get to the final idea.
It's kind of like how if you were to loop through 100K items in the console. If you don't output anything to the screen it's really quick, but when you start printing the number it takes longer to run.
But really, I just feel like leetcode style interviews don't touch the surface of my working experience and capabilities at all, and only focus on a very narrow thing.
I realize this is where the industry is right now, so I'm looking for roles that aren't a "programmer" but still benefit from my programming experience.
I haven't done mock interviews with a friend, but I did pay for a few mock technical interviews.
I much prefer technical assessments that are related to the day-to day. In either case, I'm much more comfortable working alone than I am with someone watching in an interview. I've only ever worked alone and in these interviews I have a hard time concentrating.
I'm not someone who can talk out loud and code at the same time. When I'm coming up with a solution I think about a potential solution, recognize why it won't work, and then go on to the next idea. I feel like this happens rapidly in my head, but if I were to "talk out loud" I would just be constantly saying why things won't work and it would take so much longer to get to the final idea.
It's kind of like how if you were to loop through 100K items in the console. If you don't output anything to the screen it's really quick, but when you start printing the number it takes longer to run.
But really, I just feel like leetcode style interviews don't touch the surface of my working experience and capabilities at all, and only focus on a very narrow thing.
I realize this is where the industry is right now, so I'm looking for roles that aren't a "programmer" but still benefit from my programming experience.
I just feel like leetcode style interviews don't touch the surface of my working experience and capabilities
When you play a game, and encounter a particularly difficult level, do you also feel like you don't have the skills needed to pass this level and therefore you should just give up? Treat the interview process as a game. Everyone plays the same game, and some people are better at it than others, but it's just that, a game. Try to have fun with it. After all, you became a programmer because you enjoy solving technical puzzles, right? Maybe having to solve a puzzle with a timer, and with someone watching you is making you uncomfortable, but it still involves doing what you love and what you're good at. If you can't change the world, change your attitude.
By dismissing companies hidden behind this interview practice you eliminate the majority of good SE jobs. You potentially trade a bad interview experience for a bad job. Is this a good trade?
When you play a game, and encounter a particularly difficult level, do you also feel like you don't have the skills needed to pass this level and therefore you should just give up? Treat the interview process as a game. Everyone plays the same game, and some people are better at it than others, but it's just that, a game. Try to have fun with it. After all, you became a programmer because you enjoy solving technical puzzles, right? Maybe having to solve a puzzle with a timer, and with someone watching you is making you uncomfortable, but it still involves doing what you love and what you're good at. If you can't change the world, change your attitude.
By dismissing companies hidden behind this interview practice you eliminate the majority of good SE jobs. You potentially trade a bad interview experience for a bad job. Is this a good trade?
What sorts of companies are you applying to? And where? I consider myself to be about average in technical skill and I don't have much trouble passing interviews at good companies in the US South. I know I wouldn't be able to make it in the Bay Area so I don't apply to jobs there.
All of the positions have been remote (US), and I suppose a lot of them are headquartered in SF or NY. The companies I tend to apply are pre-ipo startups.
I have been rejected by FAANG, but I'm not surprised. I knew those were long-shots, I guess I'm surprised that in reality the others were long-shots too.
I kind of have a feeling that everyone who has hired me in the past feels they made the right decision, but also everyone who hasn't extended an offer feels the same way.
I have been rejected by FAANG, but I'm not surprised. I knew those were long-shots, I guess I'm surprised that in reality the others were long-shots too.
I kind of have a feeling that everyone who has hired me in the past feels they made the right decision, but also everyone who hasn't extended an offer feels the same way.
SF and NY are already competitive enough but remote positions make it 10x worse. If you're really insistent on remote work for a startup try to focus on Nashville, Charlotte, and Atlanta.
Thanks for the tip
Go for a midlevel dev position at a non-tech company. Manh of them will not require leetcode. You will probably need a pay cut though.
I just can't handle the stress, anxiety, and rejection any more. Is there a job out there that can take advantage of over a decade's worth of software engineering experience but that doesn't have a technical interview portion?