Poll: Do you work for "the Man"?
88 comments
I think HN gives off the impression that most people own company or freelance due to the content, but it is a bit of a filter effect. Similar to how everyone is living amazing awesome lives on facebook.
I work for someone else too (a Dutch university). Although I am interested in freelancing or starting my own company in the future, what brought me to Hacker News was the good signal/noise ratio. Both in terms of upvoted items and in insightful comments.
The focus on startups may filter for people who are generally interested in new technology and business methods. You have to be able to tolerate some entrepreneurial posts every day ;).
The focus on startups may filter for people who are generally interested in new technology and business methods. You have to be able to tolerate some entrepreneurial posts every day ;).
"owner of your own company" and "a freelancer" are really the same for many people.
I think the distinction is that freelancers technically own a company, but what the company does is whatever people ask it to do. Compare a freelancer's company with a company that makes washing machines and you'll notice a substantial difference — I think that's the line here.
That is what I was thinking. Is the distinction having employees?
I would say that's a reasonable way to make that distinction.
What if my employees are freelancers? :)
so you are a freelancer and your employees are freelancers as well, and you're wondering if that makes you owner of a company?
well in that case i wouldn't consider you a company just because you hire freelancers. if you are a person who gets gigs here and there and then passes parts of it to someone else for a cut, i doubt that would be called company. however, if your projects come in at a steady and reasonable rate and you pass parts of them to others to do, also at a steady and reasonable rate, then i think you have a company, good sir!
but of course there are other factors as well: 401K, benefits, etc.
well in that case i wouldn't consider you a company just because you hire freelancers. if you are a person who gets gigs here and there and then passes parts of it to someone else for a cut, i doubt that would be called company. however, if your projects come in at a steady and reasonable rate and you pass parts of them to others to do, also at a steady and reasonable rate, then i think you have a company, good sir!
but of course there are other factors as well: 401K, benefits, etc.
I'd distinguish between consulting and a product company. Product companies license software, sell physical goods, or off-the-shelf goods. Consulting companies sell time to their customer's requirements. They may do fixed-bid work, but the client writes the specs, possibly with help.
I feel obligated to comment since I inspired this poll: I don't think the way this poll is worded is contributing to accurate results.
For example, I can truthfully say that I am currently employed at someone else's company (a startup that I am consulting for), I am a freelance contractor (for the startup I am consulting for), owner of my own company (an apparel and design studio that I am currently working on with some close friends), and I have numerous side projects including my own startup. If I feel like I should select multiple options, then I'm sure others are having the same problem. I don't think the options in the poll are leading to an accurate answer to the question.
I think the real question is what the percentage of cubicle dwelling office workers being watched over by a boss is compared with the percentage of self employed, freelance consultants.
My initial estimate was that there would be more self employed individuals with self control built by working for themselves, and fewer cubicle workers who are trying to sneakily browse HN behind the back of their bosses.
This poll hasn't answered my question one way or the other though.
For example, I can truthfully say that I am currently employed at someone else's company (a startup that I am consulting for), I am a freelance contractor (for the startup I am consulting for), owner of my own company (an apparel and design studio that I am currently working on with some close friends), and I have numerous side projects including my own startup. If I feel like I should select multiple options, then I'm sure others are having the same problem. I don't think the options in the poll are leading to an accurate answer to the question.
I think the real question is what the percentage of cubicle dwelling office workers being watched over by a boss is compared with the percentage of self employed, freelance consultants.
My initial estimate was that there would be more self employed individuals with self control built by working for themselves, and fewer cubicle workers who are trying to sneakily browse HN behind the back of their bosses.
This poll hasn't answered my question one way or the other though.
The real question should be which one is contributing the majority of your income. When I worked for "the man" I had numerous side projects (none of them went anywhere), and proudly called myself an entrepreneur. Now that I have my company as my primary income source, I see how naive I was to even consider that what I was doing was real entrepreneurship.
Yeah.. it's a hard question to pose! I was the one that suggested a poll, but stopped short of putting one up cause I wasn't able to come up with the right list of choices, and title that honor the spirit of the original curiosity....
... that and, I got work to do!
... that and, I got work to do!
Right now I'm employed. But I handed my resignation in yesterday to go freelance, and I aim to eventually build a company. I've wanted to do it for a long time, but HN played at least a part in giving me the confidence to try it.
http://www.simonpstevens.com/News/GoingFreelance
http://www.simonpstevens.com/News/GoingFreelance
I am working for "the man" in every sense that that phrase implies: yes, dropbox, facebook, gmail, and tumblr are blocked. And we use ClearCase!
Participating in any sort of forums or outside communication via company equipment during work is completely off-limits (often for regulatory reasons rather than draconian. For example, Hulu and Youtube aren't blocked because, while they're time-wasters, they aren't really venues for communication which has to be logged.)
I wonder how many people would be grouped in the "lurker" bucket not because they don't have an interest in this sort of thing, but because restrictions at work make participation require too much activation energy.
Participating in any sort of forums or outside communication via company equipment during work is completely off-limits (often for regulatory reasons rather than draconian. For example, Hulu and Youtube aren't blocked because, while they're time-wasters, they aren't really venues for communication which has to be logged.)
I wonder how many people would be grouped in the "lurker" bucket not because they don't have an interest in this sort of thing, but because restrictions at work make participation require too much activation energy.
The idea of not working for "the man" is merely an illusion. If you are freelance or a business owner, "the man" is your clients/customers and the government. Let's say your enterprise involves the illegal distribution of contraband, then "the man" is your supplier. Or let's say you're just a laborer working for a small building contractor, the boss is "the man".
I disagree.. I mean, yes.. working for yourself is a bit of illusion.. everyone has customers. But the spirit of the question in this case is a bit different. I think 'the man' we're all talking about is a short-sighted middle-manager type who's at the moment working with IT to install web-censoring software, and putting together a dashboard of LOC produced, per engineer, per day.
Ever dealt with the IRS? Or even a city business licensing authority?
Oh, totally.. but they don't care about me browsing HN..
... the IRS might be interested in a LOC count... :(
... the IRS might be interested in a LOC count... :(
You can be employed by someone else and still not work for a short-sighted middle manager type. My boss knows I post on HN, he doesn't care as long as I get my work done, and he doesn't tell me what to do.
I think your comparison is more along the lines of "Do you work with shitty managers or good managers?"
I think your comparison is more along the lines of "Do you work with shitty managers or good managers?"
Exactly! I think that's what I was more interested in learning when I proposed this poll... Essentially what level of autonomy people have over how they spend and manage their time and energy.
Well, they're still "the man", and they will let you know it if you don't cross your t's and dot your i's.
What's wrong with being employed? My employer is both super-interesting and reasonable; I can learn a lot from him.
Nothing. But, as said, a lot of (most I saw) employers are not like that and, more important, a lot of people are not like that. I was employed and the only thing I learned, even though my bosses were reasonable, was that I cannot stand that situation. I love startups, I love getting my team to the top and that top is limited by my employer (at least in short term). That makes me really not like being employed.
What's wrong with being employed is that not everyone has the benefit of a nice employer. I also have a good and reasonable employer but not everyone does.
Well, my last job was with the Navy, which I suppose is The Man, but that doesn't fit into any of the poll options.
It'd be good to add "public sector" and "military" options, I think.
It'd be good to add "public sector" and "military" options, I think.
In the spirit of the poll, you are very clearly employed at someone else's company.
Or working for The People, as opposed to The Man :)
If Uncle Sam doesn't qualify as "the man", then who does?
You should add an "I am the man" option
I think that would be "owner of your own company".
No, that's just "the man" in your own mind. You still actually work for "the man".
Isn't that "no true scotsman"? Everyone works for the man, at some level. Steve Jobs works for the man (his shareholders). Barak Obama works for the Man (his backers).
Some do, some don't. If you manage to make your living doing what you believe in and not dancing to the tune of $ or clients, you are 'the man'. But I guess most of us don't have that luxury.
If you are self-employed (the situation we're discussing), and you work for the man (your assertion), then by logical deduction you are the man — which is what I said.
You're having a major case of the "whoosh". In the context of this conversation, if you are self-employed and/or own your own company, then "the man" is the government, your clients, possibly even your suppliers.
Just a couple of months after graduating (in 2010), I attempted a startup and it was a great experience. The lessons I learned were invaluable. But, I had no industry experience whatsoever, and relatively minimal programming (the production quality kind) experience as well.
I quit my startup after six months and now I'm employed. However, I'm working on fabulous new technologies like Node.JS and I'm enjoying my experience. My employer realizes my startup background and I have almost all the freedom I had when I was at my own startup. I work directly with the Director of Technology and I really couldn't have asked for a better job.
Sure, I failed at my startup, but I believe that failures are often as important in shaping a person as successes. And at 22 years of age, attempting a startup as a single founder was one of the best mistakes I could have made.
I quit my startup after six months and now I'm employed. However, I'm working on fabulous new technologies like Node.JS and I'm enjoying my experience. My employer realizes my startup background and I have almost all the freedom I had when I was at my own startup. I work directly with the Director of Technology and I really couldn't have asked for a better job.
Sure, I failed at my startup, but I believe that failures are often as important in shaping a person as successes. And at 22 years of age, attempting a startup as a single founder was one of the best mistakes I could have made.
Unless you don't declare your revenues, you are working for the Man whatever you answered above ;)
I work for "The Woman". I used to freelance on the side, but I signed a pretty tight non-compete. I prefer the security of a salary job over freelance projects anyway, as I'm in the lovely demographic of broke 20 something post-grads ;)
Apart from that's pretty much exactly when you should be freelancing/contracting as you've got no commitments and the money is phenomenally better than a salary job.
I wouldn't say "no commitments". I'm trying to pay down my loans as quickly as possible, and fix my credit score (which I totally screwed up in college), so having a set budget is a huge help.
I can't risk a slow period at this point. Though freelancing is something I hope to take up again in the future, since I'm not really the marriage/kids type.
I can't risk a slow period at this point. Though freelancing is something I hope to take up again in the future, since I'm not really the marriage/kids type.
Where does grad student fit in this schema? :-)
I own a company, contract for my old employer, and work for a company.
I work for Kiva though, and my boss passed me on a skateboard coming in to work this morning, so it's about as far from working from the man as I can get.
I work for Kiva though, and my boss passed me on a skateboard coming in to work this morning, so it's about as far from working from the man as I can get.
Similar but different. I work for Akvo.org, a software/online services foundation for development aid, which i co-founded. But technically I am a freelancer, and own my own company. Similar in many ways to my previous startups and very different in others.
I'm not sure that where I work would constitute working for "the man." I have considerable equity, and was a very early hire. I'm not a "founder", but this job is a damn far sight from something like my previous work at, say, Lockheed Martin.
Don't be put off, most owners of their own companies are running around like chickens with their heads cut off for a chance to make it big.
If you have an easy day gig that pays well and have time to hack on the side, consider yourself in good shape.
If you have an easy day gig that pays well and have time to hack on the side, consider yourself in good shape.
I once spoke to an industry veteran when I was still in college and his advice rings to me real well. He said that it's very easy to just work for the man coming out of college. In our particular market, it's easy to follow recruiting strategies and land a job working for the man and getting comfortable.
While you're young, you can afford to take the risk of joining a startup or one on your own. Furthermore, by joining a startup, in a way, your presence at the startup reduces their risk of failure.
That was just advice and I currently work for the man. Fortunately I'm really happy where I am and I do work on things on the side.
While you're young, you can afford to take the risk of joining a startup or one on your own. Furthermore, by joining a startup, in a way, your presence at the startup reduces their risk of failure.
That was just advice and I currently work for the man. Fortunately I'm really happy where I am and I do work on things on the side.
Side note: I once met a former Apple employee who dismissed my sugar coated illusions my telling me that at the end of the day working for for even an amazing large tech company is "working for the man"
HN gives me the impresion of most of the community working on ideas that never get executed. I think its all the articles about procrastination and getting thing done, etc
Unemployed.
Seemingly unemployable as a foreigner here in Vietnam.
Thinking about freelancing but I don't really know where/how to start.
Meanwhile helping my wife's café by renovating its website @ http://www.lollybooks.com (is it against the rules to link that here?)
(sorry if the down feeling is perceptible, not in the best mood...)
(sorry if the down feeling is perceptible, not in the best mood...)
I think "employed on a startup" and "employed on a large company" should be separate options. A tiny startup is hardly "The Man" isn't it?
The last question should be first. I clicked on the first one, not realizing the fourth one would be an option. Just a thought.
Hmmm... On the one hand I own my own company. On the other I have various things on the side in various states of progress. Some of this I contribute to, some of this (most notably minklinks) has stalled, some of which is yet to come (but of course, there is no 44 conspiracy).
Can I be employed by me and have one or more things on the side?
Can I be employed by me and have one or more things on the side?
I'd like to ask to anyone who has worked as both, for himself and for the man, which one is more stressful? To the degree that this question can be answered, I realize it would depend a lot on the exact job and that it's not black and white.
I'd say that working for myself is more stressful. There are absolutely no excuses not to deliver quality work on time. Sometimes I find myself working through the night to meet a deadline, something I would never have done when I was regularly employed.
Nevertheless, there is a lot of satisfaction to selecting and organizing your own projects, and having freelanced for a year, I don't think I will be going back to salaried work.
Nevertheless, there is a lot of satisfaction to selecting and organizing your own projects, and having freelanced for a year, I don't think I will be going back to salaried work.
In general, I found working for myself was more stressful. If you work for The Man, then when you screw up, it's generally The Man's problem. If you work for yourself and screw up, there's nobody to blame but yourself, and you're completely responsible for fixing it.
I'd have to agree. People always say that you can make your own hours (which is true for many), but I find myself always on the job, whether it's day or night.
Nevertheless, I'd not have it any other way.
Nevertheless, I'd not have it any other way.
I don't work for the man, I work for the money. :-P
If I didn't get paid, it would be a hobby.
If I didn't get paid, it would be a hobby.
Currently employed at a large company, easily defined as "The Man", although I'm leaving soon to join a startup.
Looking at the results of the poll, I can't believe how many people here own their own businesses. That's great!
Looking at the results of the poll, I can't believe how many people here own their own businesses. That's great!
Doh! I started checking them off as I went down the list and didn't realize there was a compound answer until the end.
The same thing used to kill me on multiple choice questions in high school.
The same thing used to kill me on multiple choice questions in high school.
What about academia? Working in a university is very different from being employed in a company as it implies more independence and freedom to pursue own research interests.
Founder of a mobile company 5 years ago, however I would say we worked for "the man" as we bootstrapped via client work, which at least makes us masters of our own destiny
Working for the man in a very versatile/not-typical group. Happy with PTO/free time for my own geek projects & hobbies, steady pay & bonus plan, etc :).
I always recommend 'other' and 'none' options for practically all HN polls.
Not everyone is employed. Some people have unusual relationships (internships?).
Not everyone is employed. Some people have unusual relationships (internships?).
I read hacker news because I want to get away from the man, if I already worked for myself, I wouldn't benefit nearly as much.
So far 19% of HN readers are full time entrepreneurs and 81% are either employed by someone else full-time or contractors.
I consider myself to be "the man," although in a different context. So in a sense, yes.
By "Hacker News Community", do you think they mean - those people who comment?
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Both. I work for another company and own my own company.
Currently #4, hoping to be #2 soon and then #3.
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I am 'the man'. My boss sucks.
What about "stakeholder"?
Working with the Man?
How about all three?
I AM the man. :-)
what about public sector employees?
For now.
msft
( http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2392346 )
What do you say HN? Are you: