BBC interview with creator of Elite(bbc.co.uk)
bbc.co.uk
BBC interview with creator of Elite
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/rorycellanjones/2011/03/david_braben_-_an_elite_gamer.html
30 comments
Woah, I think you're overreacting a bit there! Just like any other entertainment industry, money has entered the gaming industry and it has matured. Mainstream big games cost tens of millions of dollars to make.
But there are more cool projects happening on the fringe than ever before, led by small teams of indie and commmercial developers, willing to take on a whole bunch of risk and try new things. Minecraft, Dwarf Fortress, Braid and the like basically are the Elites of the 21st century.
The most expensive games to produce are basically formulaic safe bets, but that should not take away from your enjoyment of the great games being made every day. In much the same way as the music charts being topped by pop rubbish shouldn't take away from enjoyment of the many great innovative bands with small(er) followings.
I think there's a good middle ground, too, which I think creates substantial value. Lots of high quality games take elements from existing successful games, and reshape them to make something fresh (but not innovative). This is basically what I'm attempting to do with my gaming startup (see: http://www.bigblockgames.com). But this approach is inherently cautious - I know it's not going to make me stumble on the next Minecraft!
But there are more cool projects happening on the fringe than ever before, led by small teams of indie and commmercial developers, willing to take on a whole bunch of risk and try new things. Minecraft, Dwarf Fortress, Braid and the like basically are the Elites of the 21st century.
The most expensive games to produce are basically formulaic safe bets, but that should not take away from your enjoyment of the great games being made every day. In much the same way as the music charts being topped by pop rubbish shouldn't take away from enjoyment of the many great innovative bands with small(er) followings.
I think there's a good middle ground, too, which I think creates substantial value. Lots of high quality games take elements from existing successful games, and reshape them to make something fresh (but not innovative). This is basically what I'm attempting to do with my gaming startup (see: http://www.bigblockgames.com). But this approach is inherently cautious - I know it's not going to make me stumble on the next Minecraft!
Ok, you are completely right there. I hadn't thought about that. I was just a bit awash with one of my childhood hero game developers now making shallow toys :)
I sorry, but what does he mean by "reintroducing into schools the kind of basic programming skills he learned".
He would have been a school in the 1970s, what school taught programming then and what on?
I don't believe that there was an actual computer class at any ordinary school in the UK at that time (outside of Eton or something) that'd teach you how to program.
Or have I got the wrong end of the stick?
He would have been a school in the 1970s, what school taught programming then and what on?
I don't believe that there was an actual computer class at any ordinary school in the UK at that time (outside of Eton or something) that'd teach you how to program.
Or have I got the wrong end of the stick?
In the 1970s, my school (in Liverpool) taught computing on 30 or so terminals connected to an Elliott. Possibly an Elliott 803[1] although I'm not precisely sure.
In 1982/83 the Elliott was scrapped and replaced by ZX Spectrums connected via the proprietary and strange Interface 1 network, and a couple of years later by BBC Model Bs connected via Econet.
[1] https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Elliott_803
In 1982/83 the Elliott was scrapped and replaced by ZX Spectrums connected via the proprietary and strange Interface 1 network, and a couple of years later by BBC Model Bs connected via Econet.
[1] https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Elliott_803
I started at Secondary school in '78 and there was at least one dial up terminal that was used by a few older kids - this was probably connected to a mainframe/mini somewhere.
By my later years at school (from '80) onward we had ZX-80s, ZX-81s and a couple of Apple IIs.
By my later years at school (from '80) onward we had ZX-80s, ZX-81s and a couple of Apple IIs.
The history of Llamasoft by Jeff Minter is a great read.
Not exactly what you asked for as he begins in 1978 as a 16 year old just starting college and he learns most of it by himself rather than being taught.
http://www.wayoftherodent.com/guests/bob_yak2.htm
Not exactly what you asked for as he begins in 1978 as a 16 year old just starting college and he learns most of it by himself rather than being taught.
http://www.wayoftherodent.com/guests/bob_yak2.htm
He recounts to Francis Spufford here
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Backroom-Boys-Secret-Return-British/...
that he learned to program on an Acorn Atom.
Still got mine :)
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Backroom-Boys-Secret-Return-British/...
that he learned to program on an Acorn Atom.
Still got mine :)
I think you've got the right end of the stick, with one detail missing: yes, there weren't any computer classes in the 1970s/80s. But in some fee-paying schools in England, there were computers around, like BBC Micros.
Thus a few pupils learnt how to program without interference from teachers.
Thus a few pupils learnt how to program without interference from teachers.
It wasn't just fee paying schools that would have had BBC micros, the government was actively promoting computing in schools during the early eighties - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microelectronics_Education_Prog...
1981 my comprehensive in South Yorkshire had computer classes on an RML 380Z, by the time I did computer O level in 1984 we had BBC micros
I would've asked: "Where's my Elite 4?" :(
Although there were basic market dynamics in Frontier and First Encounters, I always felt it was too straightforward to fly between Sol and Barnard's Star selling robots without any risk.
Market forces in an Elite-themed MMO environment would make it such an enjoyable experience. One can imagination hunting around star systems affected by war, supplying them medicine (or even black market weapons!), having to compete with other players to get the best deal.
Do I upgrade my trade capacity to make more of a profit or do I install a laser bank to reduce the risk of making any? What will the other guy(s) do? Can I hire somebody to protect me who will take a share of the profit?
Infinitely more fun than the 'grind...grind...grind...' dynamic that plagues MMOs these days.
Market forces in an Elite-themed MMO environment would make it such an enjoyable experience. One can imagination hunting around star systems affected by war, supplying them medicine (or even black market weapons!), having to compete with other players to get the best deal.
Do I upgrade my trade capacity to make more of a profit or do I install a laser bank to reduce the risk of making any? What will the other guy(s) do? Can I hire somebody to protect me who will take a share of the profit?
Infinitely more fun than the 'grind...grind...grind...' dynamic that plagues MMOs these days.
The next Elite is stuck in development hell, delayed indefinitely.
However, I would think the next Elite should come in the form of a MMO.
However, I would think the next Elite should come in the form of a MMO.
You mean like Eve Online? :-)
http://www.eveonline.com/
Actually, this response is directed towards shogunmike also. Just in case you haven't heard of Eve, it's a spaced themed MMO very much to the tune of Elite. You can make a living mining, trading, fighting. The factions are split onto two levels: Corporations (companies that employ/hire individual players) and Alliances (gropps of corporations with similar vision/goals)
The ecomony is almost entirely player driven.. the materials are mined by players, the equipment is built by players from those materials. You are free to engage in hostile activity even in controlled space, although the penalty is severe.
It's worth a look. The freedom of play has allowed some players to gain notoriety even in the mass media (Note: exchanging game money for real world currency is a violation of the rules):
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7256069.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7256069.stm
http://www.eveonline.com/
Actually, this response is directed towards shogunmike also. Just in case you haven't heard of Eve, it's a spaced themed MMO very much to the tune of Elite. You can make a living mining, trading, fighting. The factions are split onto two levels: Corporations (companies that employ/hire individual players) and Alliances (gropps of corporations with similar vision/goals)
The ecomony is almost entirely player driven.. the materials are mined by players, the equipment is built by players from those materials. You are free to engage in hostile activity even in controlled space, although the penalty is severe.
It's worth a look. The freedom of play has allowed some players to gain notoriety even in the mass media (Note: exchanging game money for real world currency is a violation of the rules):
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7256069.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7256069.stm
Yes, I have heard of Eve Online, but didn't realise all of these dynamics had been put in place.
I'm sure I can dig answers out to these questions elsewhere, but I thought I'd ask how the economy is balanced. For instance, mining new materials obviously increases supply. To what extent is this activity capped by the game mechanics in order to keep demand at a reasonable level?
I've heard of space stations being bought and sold, but I think this was a separate MMO. Not far off restoring houses and flipping for profit in the real world!
I'm sure I can dig answers out to these questions elsewhere, but I thought I'd ask how the economy is balanced. For instance, mining new materials obviously increases supply. To what extent is this activity capped by the game mechanics in order to keep demand at a reasonable level?
I've heard of space stations being bought and sold, but I think this was a separate MMO. Not far off restoring houses and flipping for profit in the real world!
I'm afraid I can't personally provide a detailed run down - I played the game for about 6 months near the end of university and after that I never really found enough free time to justify continuing the subscription.
The Wikipedia page seems to be comprehensive though: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eve_Online#Economy
I would take a look at the development section also. They use a Python variant called Stackless (http://www.stackless.com) which provides lightweight threads and message passing. I actually started using this as an alternative to regular CPython.
The Wikipedia page seems to be comprehensive though: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eve_Online#Economy
I would take a look at the development section also. They use a Python variant called Stackless (http://www.stackless.com) which provides lightweight threads and message passing. I actually started using this as an alternative to regular CPython.
I never played Eve Online for fear that I might never emerge from my room again.. ever.
I had enough trouble stopping playing WoW.
I had enough trouble stopping playing WoW.
I just realised I screwed up the second link - should have been:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8132547.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8132547.stm
A sadly pretty-my-dead alternative was Jumpgate, quite an early MMO. It had quite poor economy features, but fantastic seeat-of-your-pants physics and joystick control.
Have a look at http://vendetta-online.com - it's pretty much its spiritual successor, and a bunch of players are ex-Jumpgate fans.
No no no not an MMO, please. Just a single player game with a huge world to explore and a nice immersive storyline. Like the original Elites.
Why does everything have to be MMO these days. MMOs usually revolve around doing repetitive 'work' to gain points so you can buy better stuff than other players, I find that boring.
(yes, EVE online is nice, CCP did an excellent job, but IMO we don't need another one of those)
Why does everything have to be MMO these days. MMOs usually revolve around doing repetitive 'work' to gain points so you can buy better stuff than other players, I find that boring.
(yes, EVE online is nice, CCP did an excellent job, but IMO we don't need another one of those)
Single player pays once, MMO player pays every month
Assuming that your MMO gains enough momentum. Otherwise, the cost of setting up massive server infrastructure and distributed software, and hiring people to manage and moderate all of it, might well be more than you earn back every month.
Those odds are incredibly stacked against you:
- an MMO inherently requires a lot of the player's time, so the by-far most won't be playing more than one. Would they choose your game?
- network effects: players will usually flock to a game that has a lot of players already.
- people that know Elite are generally older with jobs, the target audience for MMOs are younger players with a lot of free time.
With EVE Online being the big elephant in this room, I doubt an Elite MMO will be much of a succes. Then again, feel free to prove me wrong, I'd probably sign up just for old times sake :)
Those odds are incredibly stacked against you:
- an MMO inherently requires a lot of the player's time, so the by-far most won't be playing more than one. Would they choose your game?
- network effects: players will usually flock to a game that has a lot of players already.
- people that know Elite are generally older with jobs, the target audience for MMOs are younger players with a lot of free time.
With EVE Online being the big elephant in this room, I doubt an Elite MMO will be much of a succes. Then again, feel free to prove me wrong, I'd probably sign up just for old times sake :)
I just meant that financially MMOs are much more attractive for the publisher than a single player console game.
The cost of the infrastructure servers isn't high compared to the 1000s of man years salary to build a major game, and with cloud services it can scale so you only pay as new customers come in.
MMOs tend to be older players, mostly male in 30s. These are the audience that can pay $30-60/month without noticing. The Teenagers tend to be casual gamers and a bigger market for phones/consoles - especially 1-2 player games.
The cost of the infrastructure servers isn't high compared to the 1000s of man years salary to build a major game, and with cloud services it can scale so you only pay as new customers come in.
MMOs tend to be older players, mostly male in 30s. These are the audience that can pay $30-60/month without noticing. The Teenagers tend to be casual gamers and a bigger market for phones/consoles - especially 1-2 player games.
"Elite (video game)"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elite_(video_game)
"The Making Of: Elite" http://www.next-gen.biz/features/the-making-of-elite
"The Making Of: Elite" http://www.next-gen.biz/features/the-making-of-elite
I played Elite a lot on the Commodore 64 back in the day. Great game but at some point it was a little too directionless.
If anyone in the modern gaming era has captured that (semi-)open game play it's Rockstar with its Grand Theft Auto (GTA) series (and also Red Dead Redemption, which is just a mouthful).
My particular favourite type of game is turn-based strategy. I spent hundreds of hours playing the original Civ (not so much 2 or 3 but an awful lot of 4 due to the Fall From Heaven 2 mod and almost none of 5). Heroes of Might and Magic was another big one.
Frankly RTSs annoy me as they descend into "how fast you can click". I realize there's skill there but it's just not for me.
Anyway, it's easy to lambaste the game industry with it's cookie-cutter FPSs/RTSs and the samey console titles (although I for one don't share the same nostalgia for old NES/arcade/Atari games that some fervent zealots do).
But the fact is, it's never been more possible to write indie games than it is right now. Successes like Minecraft should tell you that you don't need a big studio $30 million budget for art. Nor do you need the latest, greatest 3D engine. Mobile gaming has a plethora of smaller developers.
I, for one, would dearly love to see an Elite-style game but no one has made one (worth talking about), be it single-player or an MMO. Yes there's Eve Online but, for me at least, it falls short. It's aimed at the raiding crowd really.
But think about it: how amazing could Elite be as a game you play on your iPad?
If anyone in the modern gaming era has captured that (semi-)open game play it's Rockstar with its Grand Theft Auto (GTA) series (and also Red Dead Redemption, which is just a mouthful).
My particular favourite type of game is turn-based strategy. I spent hundreds of hours playing the original Civ (not so much 2 or 3 but an awful lot of 4 due to the Fall From Heaven 2 mod and almost none of 5). Heroes of Might and Magic was another big one.
Frankly RTSs annoy me as they descend into "how fast you can click". I realize there's skill there but it's just not for me.
Anyway, it's easy to lambaste the game industry with it's cookie-cutter FPSs/RTSs and the samey console titles (although I for one don't share the same nostalgia for old NES/arcade/Atari games that some fervent zealots do).
But the fact is, it's never been more possible to write indie games than it is right now. Successes like Minecraft should tell you that you don't need a big studio $30 million budget for art. Nor do you need the latest, greatest 3D engine. Mobile gaming has a plethora of smaller developers.
I, for one, would dearly love to see an Elite-style game but no one has made one (worth talking about), be it single-player or an MMO. Yes there's Eve Online but, for me at least, it falls short. It's aimed at the raiding crowd really.
But think about it: how amazing could Elite be as a game you play on your iPad?
I, for one, would dearly love to see an Elite-style game but no one has made one (worth talking about), be it single-player or an MMO.
Have you taken a look at Egosoft's X3? It starts out like Elite, but eventually you can apparently end up buying the stations you used to trade in, building your own factories that make the stuff the stations sell, and using the ensuing wealth to build your own war fleet.
Have you taken a look at Egosoft's X3? It starts out like Elite, but eventually you can apparently end up buying the stations you used to trade in, building your own factories that make the stuff the stations sell, and using the ensuing wealth to build your own war fleet.
Reimplementation/extension here: http://www.oolite.org/
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I personally think this just highlights everything that is wrong with the games industry at the moment.
Genius creator of an epic, brilliant, open-ended, proper clasic game is reduced to making cutesy, family-friendly gimicks that (here's the big sell) uses a motion controller. Woooooo - Big deal.
No games pubslisher nowdays would ever take a punt on what might end up being the next Populous, Civ or Elite games. Braben should be livid with the stagnation.
Sure, I understand the market mechanics behind the game industry these days, and do see he has little other choice. But it does make me feel a little sad inside. Things have changed so much in gaming, I don't think we can expect an Elite 4 ever.