The decline in computer science students (part 2)(brucefwebster.com)
brucefwebster.com
The decline in computer science students (part 2)
http://brucefwebster.com/2008/06/24/the-decline-in-computer-science-students-part-2/
33 comments
Does there need to be some analogue of Feynman + Hawking etc, where theres both epic insight and just generally an outgoing ridiculous persona and also some reasonably good popular expositions of deep ideas?
What ideas in CS are as interesting to the layman as the most interesting parts of physics? Tell a layman about black holes, galactic collisions, big bangs, quantum weirdness, nuclear fusion, or any of those other things in physics which are unimaginably (to us) big, small, hot, cold, fast, slow, or weird, and for the most part (with the exception of particularly dull laymen) they'll be fascinated. How much can you tell a layman about CS that will get the same reaction?
What ideas in CS are as interesting to the layman as the most interesting parts of physics? Tell a layman about black holes, galactic collisions, big bangs, quantum weirdness, nuclear fusion, or any of those other things in physics which are unimaginably (to us) big, small, hot, cold, fast, slow, or weird, and for the most part (with the exception of particularly dull laymen) they'll be fascinated. How much can you tell a layman about CS that will get the same reaction?
Amen. CS is basically a branch of applied mathematics, and is interesting enough. But it doesn't even remotely approach the kind of profundity you see in the basic sciences. I went through college as a physics major, changing to CS at the end basically to be sure I could get a job. And I've regretted that ever since, constantly explaining to people that I'm really more of a scientist by training.
But that said, the practice of science, at a day to day level, doesn't even remotely approach the level of satisfaction you get from a good hack.
But that said, the practice of science, at a day to day level, doesn't even remotely approach the level of satisfaction you get from a good hack.
CS is basically a branch of applied mathematics, and is interesting enough. But it doesn't even remotely approach the kind of profundity you see in the basic sciences.
I guess we'll have to disagree, but I think artificial intelligence, machine learning, complexity theory (PCP theorem, zero knowledge proofs, etc), and algorithmic information theory (Chatin's number, etc.) are as interesting and profound as anything in the basic sciences. CS also has the advantage that much of the field is still in development, unlike almost every other field of science.
I'm really more of a scientist by training.
No offense, but completing most of an undergrad physics degree doesn't make you a "scientist by training". To be a properly trained scientist, I think you need to have done multiple pieces of significant, original research, and more than likely have a PhD.
I guess we'll have to disagree, but I think artificial intelligence, machine learning, complexity theory (PCP theorem, zero knowledge proofs, etc), and algorithmic information theory (Chatin's number, etc.) are as interesting and profound as anything in the basic sciences. CS also has the advantage that much of the field is still in development, unlike almost every other field of science.
I'm really more of a scientist by training.
No offense, but completing most of an undergrad physics degree doesn't make you a "scientist by training". To be a properly trained scientist, I think you need to have done multiple pieces of significant, original research, and more than likely have a PhD.
Ahem. I said it makes me more of a scientist than a programmer by training. Please read carefully before flaming.
And if math is your thing, that's fine. Study what you like. Although I'll admit I'm more than a little confused by your assertion that basic science is no longer "in development"...
And if math is your thing, that's fine. Study what you like. Although I'll admit I'm more than a little confused by your assertion that basic science is no longer "in development"...
Please read carefully before flaming.
For what it's worth, he did start with "No offense, but..." which doesn't really sound like flaming.
For what it's worth, he did start with "No offense, but..." which doesn't really sound like flaming.
Once, I had been dating a girl for a bit, and in one of the dates I was telling her about the distances between stars, and how there are more stars in the universe than grains of sand in the earth.
And at some point I was trying to explain her 2001 A Space Odyssey, and the meaning behind the monoliths. --which is pretty fascinating to any person that has some geekiness inside.
She was totally bored.
Then I switched into how Rome is awesome, and Instabul was a romantic place, cools things to do in Europe blah blah.... a little bit more interesting to her as she had never travelled in europe.
I quit dating her after that night. I was "sick" for a while, then in "Boston" for a long time....
I just couldn't date a person with that low level of curiosity.
Anyways, you would be suprised on how layman might be totally un-interested to even these cosmical events. Something it is just beyond some people, it is like foreing stuff, that they don't need to understand, and trying to understand will only give them headaches.
Moral of the story: When dating, never trade intelligence for beauty. You will regret it as soon as the eye candy wears off.
She was totally bored.
Then I switched into how Rome is awesome, and Instabul was a romantic place, cools things to do in Europe blah blah.... a little bit more interesting to her as she had never travelled in europe.
I quit dating her after that night. I was "sick" for a while, then in "Boston" for a long time....
I just couldn't date a person with that low level of curiosity.
Anyways, you would be suprised on how layman might be totally un-interested to even these cosmical events. Something it is just beyond some people, it is like foreing stuff, that they don't need to understand, and trying to understand will only give them headaches.
Moral of the story: When dating, never trade intelligence for beauty. You will regret it as soon as the eye candy wears off.
I think Rachel Hartman's character Lalo said it best in "Blondweg Blossoming": the secret to being interesting is being interested.
My wife and kids and I have a rule - I'll watch whatever 10 minute video they want to show me on YouTube if I get to show them a 10 minute clip from Cosmos. Let's just say they that their about at their limit of "Star Stuff" :-) But I don't think any less of their intelligence or curiosity just because Carl Sagan isn't their thing. My wife knows much more about philosophy then I and my kids interest in biology and psychology is greater than mine.
My wife and kids and I have a rule - I'll watch whatever 10 minute video they want to show me on YouTube if I get to show them a 10 minute clip from Cosmos. Let's just say they that their about at their limit of "Star Stuff" :-) But I don't think any less of their intelligence or curiosity just because Carl Sagan isn't their thing. My wife knows much more about philosophy then I and my kids interest in biology and psychology is greater than mine.
Curiosity is nice, and have appreciation for another's interests is great. Aptitude takes many forms. Beauty can be its own topic of geekery. Just as there are more VB & PHP kids than hackers, there are more TV & Magazine idolizers than connoisseurs of taste.
EDIT: vapid eyecandy is good for one thing, and then it is seldom good.
EDIT: vapid eyecandy is good for one thing, and then it is seldom good.
Hahah, let me tell you how.
When I'm explaining computer science to someone who wants a capsule explanation, I don't tell the "computer science studies the problem X Y and Z, along with their generalizations", I say:
"Computer Science studies the limits of human thought, trying to understand exactly how hard a particular idea is to think, and what sort of problems it is reasonable (for various notions corresponding to best, average, worst case complexity)to ask a person to solve".
When I'm explaining computer science to someone who wants a capsule explanation, I don't tell the "computer science studies the problem X Y and Z, along with their generalizations", I say:
"Computer Science studies the limits of human thought, trying to understand exactly how hard a particular idea is to think, and what sort of problems it is reasonable (for various notions corresponding to best, average, worst case complexity)to ask a person to solve".
Well, quantum is applicable - or at least becoming so. A.I. is another one that springs to mind - not to mention robotics. Everyone loves robots.
On the other hand, doing research in applied mathematics is great training for being a derivatives trader.
IT is a very broad industry and CS is very relevant to a significant subset of it.
IT is a very broad industry and CS is very relevant to a significant subset of it.
Typically, for a recent CS graduate they get equated in the initial search for a job - put CS, put IT, put 6, put 'half a dozen'... in the end, when seeking that first job that gives you your experience that all the "good" jobs require, the HR manager does not know (or could care less) about the differences between CS or IT.
Basically, to most 'regular' employers they need a "tech guy" (or girl) who generally understands the domain of their needs. Or maybe I am applying for crap jobs - who knows? But I do know that typically when "cold" applying for positions, the two are usually considered equivocal.
Basically, to most 'regular' employers they need a "tech guy" (or girl) who generally understands the domain of their needs. Or maybe I am applying for crap jobs - who knows? But I do know that typically when "cold" applying for positions, the two are usually considered equivocal.
I wish I had declined my CS education. I, a recent CS graduate (Bachelor of Science in Computer Science), have come to the conclusion that a)my education equals squat to potential employers (and that a hand full of $300 certifications would have served as more valuable) and b)everything I learned in 4 years of CS studies, I could have learned in half the time outside of class - much of which I did, and then had to sit through it again in class.
I have been out of school for approximately 3 months now, have submitted well over 100 resumes, and cannot net even a remedial hold-over job screwing in PCI cards and fixing users' desktops. This afternoon I am throwing on a pair of khakis and heading out to see if I can net a job waiting tables - woot!
P.S. That last sentence is literal, in about an hour I am going for a restaurant interview... man, I am really happy I listened to my parents and elders and made sure to go to college, so that now I have 35k in debt and no job with which to pay it back with.
I have been out of school for approximately 3 months now, have submitted well over 100 resumes, and cannot net even a remedial hold-over job screwing in PCI cards and fixing users' desktops. This afternoon I am throwing on a pair of khakis and heading out to see if I can net a job waiting tables - woot!
P.S. That last sentence is literal, in about an hour I am going for a restaurant interview... man, I am really happy I listened to my parents and elders and made sure to go to college, so that now I have 35k in debt and no job with which to pay it back with.
Been there done that, it gets better.
I got out of school with my BS in CS right at bottom of the .com bust. 2+ months of resume sending and nothing, eventually I got "network engineer" (glorified PC repairman) job. It was fun for about a month, then it got repetitive. 6+ month later I finally got a break and started (for slightly less $) as junior software engineer.
So yeah right now it feels like your CS is worth less then a bunch of certificates, but don't worry things change and in the long term you are better of.
In fact waiting tables might be better then what I did. It could pay more if you get lots of tips and you can keep your skills sharp outside of work, and the temptation to specialize in your new job and forget CS isn't there.
In summary: Suck it up kid!
I got out of school with my BS in CS right at bottom of the .com bust. 2+ months of resume sending and nothing, eventually I got "network engineer" (glorified PC repairman) job. It was fun for about a month, then it got repetitive. 6+ month later I finally got a break and started (for slightly less $) as junior software engineer.
So yeah right now it feels like your CS is worth less then a bunch of certificates, but don't worry things change and in the long term you are better of.
In fact waiting tables might be better then what I did. It could pay more if you get lots of tips and you can keep your skills sharp outside of work, and the temptation to specialize in your new job and forget CS isn't there.
In summary: Suck it up kid!
It took me a while to get a real programming job out of school as well. It eventually happened. Whatever you do, keep coding. Get stuff out there. Pick an open source project if you like that kind of thing, otherwise follow a pet project, get it on the web. Hell, you may not even need a job if it takes off. But in the short term, there's a serious risk of fading away from code, which is why you really honestly might be better off working at a coffee shop instead of doing a boring corporate job. At least you'll be hungry to write code. A creative writing teacher advised a few students against taking a PR job for the same reason (I'm not sure that was necessarily the best advice, just one school of thought).
In the past, it was much harder to program, because the resources were harder to come by. Now, you really can't say "I never had the opportunity to work with that programming language", because pretty much everything is there for the taking.
In the past, it was much harder to program, because the resources were harder to come by. Now, you really can't say "I never had the opportunity to work with that programming language", because pretty much everything is there for the taking.
Ha! Thanks. Yea, I know what you are saying, and I am sure that something will come along. I am taking my A+ next week because every 'network engineer' position that I have applied for requires it - they do not, however, require a CS degree. Go figure. All I can do is use this time that I have and hone my hacking skills - something to be thankful for. Oh, and at the interview they said the waiter positions was filled, but they will call me about the busboy position! Yay!
Try applying for QA positions as well, instead of tech guy ones. Frankly, you might be running into a problem that you're overqualified for the grunt work positions. Further, unless you're WAY younger than your wife, you may be running into an age discrimination issue.
I've come to the conclusion that the best thing anyone can do for themselves to get into the corporate world is an internship during one's college years. Most places hire their new talent from their intern pool.
I've come to the conclusion that the best thing anyone can do for themselves to get into the corporate world is an internship during one's college years. Most places hire their new talent from their intern pool.
Hmm.. I have to say I have had a very different experience being a fresh college grad (class of 2008). I applied for jobs at various different places, big companies and small startup's, in all different types of industries defense, finance, health and software.
I would say I hear back from companies I sent my resume to 75% of the time - and out of those companies, I eventually get offers 75% of the time. Salary typically hovers around 50-60K depending on location and the nature of job.
Oh and I did not graduate from a technical school - no certificates, and my degree in CS is not even a BS, it's a BA because I graduated from the liberal arts college. Your mileage may vary, that's all I am saying.
I would say I hear back from companies I sent my resume to 75% of the time - and out of those companies, I eventually get offers 75% of the time. Salary typically hovers around 50-60K depending on location and the nature of job.
Oh and I did not graduate from a technical school - no certificates, and my degree in CS is not even a BS, it's a BA because I graduated from the liberal arts college. Your mileage may vary, that's all I am saying.
Good job Mr. Gates. C/o 2008 and already getting 60K offers from 75% of your applications. You are a fortunate fellow. Unfortunately the tech jobs here in the southeast U.S. (Alabama to be specific) aren't so hot - avg <40k starting. And before you said 'move', see above comment. Thanks for the feedback though.
Don't blame college or your parents if you're intentionally staying in a bad market. _Move_ to a place where your wife will clear 60 and you will clear 60. Easy.
remote work can be hard to find without a portfolio. thankfully, making a portfolio doesn't require much more than you already have.
submitted well over 100 resumes
Perhaps you should consider quality, not quantity.
I have been through a similar situation but have never sent out more than one resume at a time, ever. And every one was custom.
Whenever you find a prospective opportunity, learn everything you can about it. Try to get a personal introduction if you can. Write a cover letter and resume that specifically targets what they want, not what you want. Avoid headhunters (if you can) and follow up, follow up, follow up. Use any means you have to uncover opportunities (some call this "networking"). Better yet, get someone to create a position for you. (I know this is tough, but so what.)
I see entry level positions all the time. Be prepared to move if you have to. Take the waiter job and then plug away for an IT job in your spare time. I know there's something out there for you, persevere and find it.
Perhaps you should consider quality, not quantity.
I have been through a similar situation but have never sent out more than one resume at a time, ever. And every one was custom.
Whenever you find a prospective opportunity, learn everything you can about it. Try to get a personal introduction if you can. Write a cover letter and resume that specifically targets what they want, not what you want. Avoid headhunters (if you can) and follow up, follow up, follow up. Use any means you have to uncover opportunities (some call this "networking"). Better yet, get someone to create a position for you. (I know this is tough, but so what.)
I see entry level positions all the time. Be prepared to move if you have to. Take the waiter job and then plug away for an IT job in your spare time. I know there's something out there for you, persevere and find it.
Yea, I am going to spend this 'down time' honing my skills as a hacker and see what happens from there. As the old adage goes "the proof is in the pudding" and I currently don't have much in the way of 'pudding' to show prospective employers aside from my degree - guess I need to get to brainstorming.
Oh, and concerning moving: my wife is an accountant here and is clearing 60, so yea, not really an option... luckily she can support my broke-a for now.
Oh, and concerning moving: my wife is an accountant here and is clearing 60, so yea, not really an option... luckily she can support my broke-a for now.
Accountants are needed everywhere, so if you're not emotionally/socially tied to Alabama, maybe you want to become a dual-income couple elsewhere.
If you're trapped in Alabama, edw519 makes good suggestions about personalizing your pitch and ibsulon, below, about broadening your search to 'adjacent' positions that could lead to coding.
To build the kind of rep that could get you remote work, do publicly observable projects, on your own or as part of open-source projects. You might also try doing small freelance jobs via other cities' Craigslist, Rentacoder, Elance, Odesk. (You're competing against some very cheap overseas coders but you've got the language and culture down, a first-world degree, and still live in one of the cheapest areas of the US.)
If you're trapped in Alabama, edw519 makes good suggestions about personalizing your pitch and ibsulon, below, about broadening your search to 'adjacent' positions that could lead to coding.
To build the kind of rep that could get you remote work, do publicly observable projects, on your own or as part of open-source projects. You might also try doing small freelance jobs via other cities' Craigslist, Rentacoder, Elance, Odesk. (You're competing against some very cheap overseas coders but you've got the language and culture down, a first-world degree, and still live in one of the cheapest areas of the US.)
Where are you located? The companies I'm in never seem to fill all their developer positions.
Birmingham, Alabama - there are always positions open, but they want 'senior' developers. About as far as I have gotten concerning these jobs is attempting to sell myself as a quick learner willing to work from the bottom up, but it seems that no one is interesting in mentoring or even trying a green developer out.
Now, in fairness, I understand that time is money and no one wants to waste time, so I am guessing I need to suck it up and get in on some projects to build my portfolio - I kinda thought thats what my first job out of college would do (teach me and build me), but looks like that comes after considerable personal development.
Now, in fairness, I understand that time is money and no one wants to waste time, so I am guessing I need to suck it up and get in on some projects to build my portfolio - I kinda thought thats what my first job out of college would do (teach me and build me), but looks like that comes after considerable personal development.
[deleted]
Perfect. It should decline even more, because lets face it: big percentage of CS grads aren't really "into it". The article points at year 2000 as the peak of CS enrollments, same year when I met an ex-taxi driver and the history teacher both turned Java programmers.
Where they good programmers? Some of the best programmers I have ever met started off doing other things in life (or never even went on a CS course). You cannot begrudge people for starting on different life paths.
I would like to see how CS minors figure into the context, as well as CIS/MIS degrees. As someone with a CS minor (considering going back for a BS/master's), I've found that all I needed was that first job. Certainly, I've had my fair share of jobs that I just couldn't get into, but it's enough for blub.
I might advise someone to get a major in Biology and a minor in CS these days. In the corporate world, as far as I can tell, you are only as good as your domain.
I might advise someone to get a major in Biology and a minor in CS these days. In the corporate world, as far as I can tell, you are only as good as your domain.
Bruce F. Webster - creater of 'Sundog, the Frozen Legacy' for the Atari ST. And a good writer for BYTE back in the day. Thanks for the link.
Too many bosses like lumberg (from the movie Office Space) out there.
Can't get any referrals.
Besides Microsoft and the rest are scouring the streets of third world cities like bombay and Calcutta picking up throwaway kids and teaching them how to program.
Only one out of 50 makes it but when they kick in they only cost $15 an hour.
Who the heck needs those expensive kids with Computer Science degrees.
Can't get any referrals.
Besides Microsoft and the rest are scouring the streets of third world cities like bombay and Calcutta picking up throwaway kids and teaching them how to program.
Only one out of 50 makes it but when they kick in they only cost $15 an hour.
Who the heck needs those expensive kids with Computer Science degrees.
I guess the question is then: how does computer science pull a physics? Does there need to be some analogue of Feynman + Hawking etc, where theres both epic insight and just generally an outgoing ridiculous persona and also some reasonably good popular expositions of deep ideas?