Poll: Have you ever clicked the wrong upvote/downvote arrow?
31 comments
Proposal: If it's desirable that votes not be undoable, make them non-undoable after 5 minutes, but undoable until that point.
The iPad and iPhone are especially dangerous when it comes to accidental downvoting. Separating or enlarging the arrows would help those of us with fat fingers.
You can use my http://ihackernews.com which works great for mobile devices.
http://www.icombinator.net can't vote, which is not as useful.
Thanks - that's very cool. I'm new here. What are some other cool sites that I can use to access this site?
Possible fix: Put the up-vote graphic to the left side of a comment (e.g. where it is now), and place the down-vote graphic to the right side (spaced a little bit away from the "link"). That makes it pretty hard to accidentally press one when you mean the other.
EDIT (example): http://dave-gallagher.net/pics/hnVote.gif
EDIT (example): http://dave-gallagher.net/pics/hnVote.gif
> Possible fix: Put the up-vote graphic to the left side of a comment (e.g. where it is now), and place the down-vote graphic to the right side
I'm seconding that suggestion. It's the minimal possible coding workload, and solves the problem instantly for all time.
I'm seconding that suggestion. It's the minimal possible coding workload, and solves the problem instantly for all time.
Might want the arrows side-by-side, and just further apart. To me, the separate down-triangle in your screenshot almost looks "menu like" and may occasionally make me hit it for that reason.
I find that the key problem is that the reply on the parent comment is right next to the upvote on a child, so I often find myself accidentally upvoting responses to things I want to reply to.
Sorry, I meant to vote "No" but accidentally clicked "Yes". Which makes my vote true -- but only if it is not true.
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I've never seen a down arrow (405 karma as of this writing). I've been imagining it would look just like the up arrow except upside down? My mouse precision is superior, so I will only be accidentally clicking the down arrow when I'm on my CR-48.
Damn, I've got a long time 'til I see it, then, since I've only reached 136 karma in 192 days. I suppose that means I shouldn't be able to downvote, then. :)
Wow. 405 and still no down arrow? I'm only a little over 100 and was wondering what the threshhold was...
I don't yet have sufficient karma to downvote, but personally, I'd like to see all downvotes accompanied with a note or counter-point.
Perhaps an additional "are you sure" popup after a downvote would serve the purpose. From there, instead of downvoting spam, we could use a flag button.
Perhaps an additional "are you sure" popup after a downvote would serve the purpose. From there, instead of downvoting spam, we could use a flag button.
See pg's comment on downvoting from 1099 days ago:
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=117171
Yes, I am aware that pg and other long-time curators of this site are still thinking about ways to refine the user interface. I personally, having observed many online discussion sites with many kinds of interfaces, think that active curation of the community members (including participant bans) is more important than the specific details of technology for commenting or karma voting. On some sites, administrators lack the spine to use their mops to clean up the mess.
http://lesswrong.com/lw/c1/wellkept_gardens_die_by_pacifism/
There has been consideration of using more flagging and less downvoting for certain kinds of posts, and I'd be happy to see what management here comes up with by way of experiments with new interfaces.
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=117171
Yes, I am aware that pg and other long-time curators of this site are still thinking about ways to refine the user interface. I personally, having observed many online discussion sites with many kinds of interfaces, think that active curation of the community members (including participant bans) is more important than the specific details of technology for commenting or karma voting. On some sites, administrators lack the spine to use their mops to clean up the mess.
http://lesswrong.com/lw/c1/wellkept_gardens_die_by_pacifism/
There has been consideration of using more flagging and less downvoting for certain kinds of posts, and I'd be happy to see what management here comes up with by way of experiments with new interfaces.
My problem with PG's take in that comment is that it borders on passive aggressive behavior. Just today, I achieved enough Karma to downvote, but I don't plan on using it.
Why? Because I don't think it's necessary, and I find more value in promoting value, than trying to tear down something that I disagree with.
I believe that making it easier to lose Karma than to gain it is counter-productive, and will lead to bashful expression. In other words, that downvoting exists, without the necessity to back up said downvote, leads to a feeling that you can't openly express yourself, which is why we see comments like "I'm probably going to get downvoted for this, but..."
Why? Because I don't think it's necessary, and I find more value in promoting value, than trying to tear down something that I disagree with.
I believe that making it easier to lose Karma than to gain it is counter-productive, and will lead to bashful expression. In other words, that downvoting exists, without the necessity to back up said downvote, leads to a feeling that you can't openly express yourself, which is why we see comments like "I'm probably going to get downvoted for this, but..."
I went from 250 karma to almost 700 in a little over a week. I know it's a sample size of one, but it seems like the system works well enough.
That's a fair assessment. I don't really see a problem with the current system either, I just know that downvotes without a comment in reply agitate me. Maybe I should lighten up :)
Lightening up in online communities is a generally good idea. Not taking things personally makes the whole community more enjoyable for everyone.
>I don't yet have sufficient karma to downvote, but personally, I'd like to see all downvotes accompanied with a note or counter-point.
I downvoted you because I disagree with you. Is that the kind of note, you'd like to see clutter up comment threads?
Lots of little notes about why various readers downvoted various comments would be a net loss for the reader. Also, I don't see a reason why downvotes should require any more justification than upvotes. If people hardly ever downvote, then the way to get a lot of karma is to write a lot of comments. If there's anything the internet provides more than enough of it's volume. I'd gladly sacrifice half the commenting volume in exchange for higher comment quality, but an upvote-only system gets the opposite.
Worse still, if downvotes are rare, then many of the top comments will be those that are particularly controversial or divisive since readers who agree will upvote, but many who disagree just don't feel like taking the time to write a note or counterpoint. In the long run, a mostly upvote system will lead to more inside jokes, more inane internet memes and more loud but poorly reasoned assertions.
I downvoted you because I disagree with you. Is that the kind of note, you'd like to see clutter up comment threads?
Lots of little notes about why various readers downvoted various comments would be a net loss for the reader. Also, I don't see a reason why downvotes should require any more justification than upvotes. If people hardly ever downvote, then the way to get a lot of karma is to write a lot of comments. If there's anything the internet provides more than enough of it's volume. I'd gladly sacrifice half the commenting volume in exchange for higher comment quality, but an upvote-only system gets the opposite.
Worse still, if downvotes are rare, then many of the top comments will be those that are particularly controversial or divisive since readers who agree will upvote, but many who disagree just don't feel like taking the time to write a note or counterpoint. In the long run, a mostly upvote system will lead to more inside jokes, more inane internet memes and more loud but poorly reasoned assertions.
And that's why I like the idea - because you replied - dialogue can exist.
I could care about the "I downvoted you because I disagree with you" part. I'm more interested in what you said next. And even though I disagree with what you said, I don't feel the need to downvote you to say that. That's what discussion is for.
Second, you downvoted me when I was already in the positive, and I find that less aggravating than downvoting to the negative, which reduces readability of a comment, and reduces the opportunity for dialogue.
I find that the quality of the community makes a much greater difference than the problem of upvotes as you describe it.
I could care about the "I downvoted you because I disagree with you" part. I'm more interested in what you said next. And even though I disagree with what you said, I don't feel the need to downvote you to say that. That's what discussion is for.
Second, you downvoted me when I was already in the positive, and I find that less aggravating than downvoting to the negative, which reduces readability of a comment, and reduces the opportunity for dialogue.
I find that the quality of the community makes a much greater difference than the problem of upvotes as you describe it.
Your poll may be skewed by those who don't have downvote power voting "No".
like a shitload of times? Either should be harder to mis-click or there should be some way to undo.
For confused noobs or folks who don't spend too much time on hacker news, you need 500 karma points to be able to downvote.
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1853529
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1853529
I don't remember ever upvoting by mistake, but sometimes I do want to save a link but not upvote. I think it will be useful if one can save a link without upvoting.
Yes, but then I remember that it's not really a big deal, and then I move on.
It happens <1% of the time for me. It's not that big of a deal to me.
Of course, something might as well be done to prevent it entirely. It's weird how I get a hover icon on what is supposed to be the void between the upvote and downvote arrows.
Of course, something might as well be done to prevent it entirely. It's weird how I get a hover icon on what is supposed to be the void between the upvote and downvote arrows.
While we all click the wrong arrow from time to time in the grand scheme of things it's probably a small percentage of the overall clicks.
I've probably clicked two or three wrong arrows out of thousands of clicks, which makes it pretty much a non-issue.
I've probably clicked two or three wrong arrows out of thousands of clicks, which makes it pretty much a non-issue.
Yes but when you really liked/disliked a comment, and for an error you click in the wrong way, it's a really bad feeling.
So is this a statement or an argument? I would agree it sucks, but what would the cost of pg's time be to create, test, and implement this?
Other than your emotional state, I don't see a huge win here.
Other than your emotional state, I don't see a huge win here.
What about the comments that are on 1 point and you mean to upvote them but then misclick and they go to zero? At the early stages of discussion that kind of thing can have a huge impact.
My previous comment was downvoted to at least -3 and it rose up again to 1. I think that proves that with enough eyes a good comment will at least get back to 1. Most comments occur on highly trafficked posts, which means most comments should be seen by enough eyes.
Again, in the grand scheme of things one up vote or down vote is relatively unimportant.
Again, in the grand scheme of things one up vote or down vote is relatively unimportant.
it's not about the final score the comment gets, it's about the amount of influence early in the story.
edit: Also, I kicked off the downvoting when you were on 1 point, as an experiment. I wonder if the other 3 people who downvoted to get you to -3 would have done so if I hadn't initially put you at 0. Also, clearly three other people upvoted you. If I hadn't put you at 0 and then 3 others followed my lead, would you now be at +4?
It makes a big difference in the perception of opinion. Simply by initially putting you at 0, I was able to make it seem as though your opinion was worth less than mine. The difference between a +8 comment and a +1 (or -3) comment is much larger than the difference between a +8 and a +4.
edit: Also, I kicked off the downvoting when you were on 1 point, as an experiment. I wonder if the other 3 people who downvoted to get you to -3 would have done so if I hadn't initially put you at 0. Also, clearly three other people upvoted you. If I hadn't put you at 0 and then 3 others followed my lead, would you now be at +4?
It makes a big difference in the perception of opinion. Simply by initially putting you at 0, I was able to make it seem as though your opinion was worth less than mine. The difference between a +8 comment and a +1 (or -3) comment is much larger than the difference between a +8 and a +4.
sorry but I don't measure my hopes for a better HN with PG's needed efforts, but as a simple user that wants things to work well. Also the effort is minimal.
You seem to underestimate the value of "emotional state" in a market (or a community). During a recession, comedy and other light entertainment does better because people strongly want to feel better. And people get murdered because they made someone mad. Negative emotional states contribute to the decline of a site -- something pg has repeatedly expressed interest in avoiding. I am not a hacker, so I have no idea what the time investment would be on the back end. But preventing trouble is typically way cheaper (in terms of time and other resources) than cleaning up the mess after the fact.
Peace.
Peace.
It would be great even if we could change our option later. I sometimes think an article is really interesting, and upvote it -- but later think "maybe not". Vice versa, sometimes "boring" articles just need some time to sink in.
I once had a comment from a guy came here from reddit apologizing for an accidental downvote.
I have accidentally clicked the wrong arrow several times. I can remember I wished if I can fix my mistake each time.
I have accidentally clicked the wrong arrow several times. I can remember I wished if I can fix my mistake each time.
One could simply put the arrows next to each other instead of above one another.
Ex: [up] [down] x points by username 17 hours ago | link
Instead of:
[u] x points by username 17 hours ago | link
[d]
Ex: [up] [down] x points by username 17 hours ago | link
Instead of:
[u] x points by username 17 hours ago | link
[d]
Stackoverflow solves this problem by giving you a (fairly narrow) window to rescind the cote or change your mind.
I've never had this problem on a laptop/desktop but on the iPhone/iPad? Lots of times unfortunately.
I've never had this problem on a laptop/desktop but on the iPhone/iPad? Lots of times unfortunately.
On the measure this is a small problem for something that is already relatively inconsequential.
I would like an option to hide the downvote arrow. I very rarely downvote anyways.
I wonder how many people have been caught by this bug on this post alone. ;)
Just think - In this poll some folks may have clicked the wrong button too.
Oh noes, I've accidentally upvoted this poll :(.
(joking ;))
(joking ;))
I was going to make a similar comment :-)
[deleted]
Yes, but not often.
No, I mean yes.
hahahahaahahaha.
it's a known bug. everyone hates it. suggest an appropriate solution. maybe the arrows should straddle the reply link
Reddit has an appropriate solution: you can unclick the arrow.
Not just Reddit; every site that I read that has voting, except HN, has unclick.
Even slashdot will let you unmoderate by commenting in the same article that you moderated in. Works well.
This is a bad solution; a voting system on a discussion site should allow people to undo their vote, but not let people change opinions on a whim.
People can stand by their point or concede that they were wrong somehow.
If your opinion does a 180, it's probably for the better that your - new - opinion doesn't count.
People can stand by their point or concede that they were wrong somehow.
If your opinion does a 180, it's probably for the better that your - new - opinion doesn't count.
If your opinion does a 180 within 60 seconds, though, it's probably for the better that your old one doesn't count.
Wow, what's wrong with changing opinions?
Nothing.
The ability to change opinions is an important difference between rational and overly stubborn people.
Sometimes I can be convinced during a discussion. Then people are often very surprised that I change my opinion at all. Then I wonder why the bother to discuss, if they don't expect me to actually change my opinion.
The ability to change opinions is an important difference between rational and overly stubborn people.
Sometimes I can be convinced during a discussion. Then people are often very surprised that I change my opinion at all. Then I wonder why the bother to discuss, if they don't expect me to actually change my opinion.
Well, if you change your opinion, that means you were WRONG! And being wrong is... well... WRONG! Don't you see?! You can't let people see you being wrong, man! They might think you're human!
So much of the media we consume is heavily editorialized to hit an emotional chord. This makes sense from the author's perspective - an argument with a strong pathos can help it get noticed. I will often react instinctively at first, then take some time and reconsider and form a different opinion. Sometimes I read an article on HN, then go to the comments where someone states a counterpoint I had not considered. Especially on a this forum, one should have the chance to change a vote.
Just thinking, there could be a counter on how many times someone "changed opinions".
As a side though, if somebody keeps changing opinions on a given topic, it would be somewhat sensible to lower the effect of such votes.
As a side though, if somebody keeps changing opinions on a given topic, it would be somewhat sensible to lower the effect of such votes.
I think it's unlikely that that would be necessarily. Only a small minority of votes would be reversed, and the even smaller portion of those that are reversed a second time wouldn't be worth worrying about.
It's a good idea. But its side effect could be that people are more encouraged to write replies instead of just voting (resulting in too many me-too comments). We will never know without trying it out though.
An alternative is to have the arrows straddle the top line of a comment instead. The down-vote button will be right beside the 'flag' link which may or may not have a desired side effect.
Yet another idea with possibly least side effect is to have them straddle '[x] points'.
An alternative is to have the arrows straddle the top line of a comment instead. The down-vote button will be right beside the 'flag' link which may or may not have a desired side effect.
Yet another idea with possibly least side effect is to have them straddle '[x] points'.
Yes. The question shouldn't be "have you ever?" but rather "How often do you?"
It has to be more than just a solution: it has to be a solution that requires close to zero coding from time-constrained PG.
I think adding a hover effect to the arrow would provide the most benefit per second coding. The following line of CSS can do it without requiring image editing:
Other solutions are better, but this is an easy 80% one.
I think adding a hover effect to the arrow would provide the most benefit per second coding. The following line of CSS can do it without requiring image editing:
a:hover img {opacity: .6;}
Other solutions are better, but this is an easy 80% one.
Doesn't solve the iPad problem.
That is true. Here a similar solution for iOS:
a[href*=dir\=up] {-webkit-tap-highlight-color: green;}
a[href*=dir\=down] {-webkit-tap-highlight-color: red;}
[deleted]
Well on my screen the arrows go from the top of the line showing points and user name, to halfway down the first line of comment text.
Every comment has to have at least 1 line of text, why not make the arrows go from the top of the user line to the bottom of the first comment text line. That is about a 25% increase in size.
Every comment has to have at least 1 line of text, why not make the arrows go from the top of the user line to the bottom of the first comment text line. That is about a 25% increase in size.
http://i55.tinypic.com/3177hqt.png and have a per-account preference of whether to use this or current layout.
(edit) Having actually thought about it for a minute, I think a simple "Undo last vote" in the title bar next to the account name would work just fine for reversing accidental votes. And, say, call it unvote for brevity. I really like how clicking on either arrow makes them disappear, this is very much in line with general minimalistic design of the site, so I would rather have it stay.
http://i53.tinypic.com/24dljeq.png
(edit) Having actually thought about it for a minute, I think a simple "Undo last vote" in the title bar next to the account name would work just fine for reversing accidental votes. And, say, call it unvote for brevity. I really like how clicking on either arrow makes them disappear, this is very much in line with general minimalistic design of the site, so I would rather have it stay.
http://i53.tinypic.com/24dljeq.png
Just now. D'oh!
Every day.
This will help alleviate the problem without requiring any backend coding.
Screenshot: http://i.imgur.com/O3Mm7.png