Ask HN: Do I have too low of an IQ to be a successful engineer?
6 comments
I guess there's some context here that isn't in your description?
While test scores might be indicative of your aptitudes at different types of problems, unless you're actually struggling with your work, it mightn't be a problem.
There's plenty of successful software engineers who've interviewed/tested unsuccessfully at Google/Facebook/Microsoft/etc, and gone on to have rewarding and fulfilling careers. Some people are just bad at interviews. And some interviews are just looking for a particular type of person, and not everyone who's a good engineer is going to fit that profile.
Do you enjoy your work? Is it stimulating and challenging and sometimes even fun?
Do you feel like you understand the tradeoffs in making the choices you make while coding? And if not, it that because you find them just baffling? Or because you understand it, but don't have the experience or knowledge to really make a clear decision yet?
The VAST majority of coding has basically nothing to do with maths. You need to be able to think logically, break things down from high level goals to low level steps, and be tenacious in working through design issues and coding bugs.
And, having said of all that, not everyone has to be a genius coder either. The other 99% of software engineers do a decent job, nothing too stellar (but hopefully nothing too crap either). It's ok to not be the best in the world.
While test scores might be indicative of your aptitudes at different types of problems, unless you're actually struggling with your work, it mightn't be a problem.
There's plenty of successful software engineers who've interviewed/tested unsuccessfully at Google/Facebook/Microsoft/etc, and gone on to have rewarding and fulfilling careers. Some people are just bad at interviews. And some interviews are just looking for a particular type of person, and not everyone who's a good engineer is going to fit that profile.
Do you enjoy your work? Is it stimulating and challenging and sometimes even fun?
Do you feel like you understand the tradeoffs in making the choices you make while coding? And if not, it that because you find them just baffling? Or because you understand it, but don't have the experience or knowledge to really make a clear decision yet?
The VAST majority of coding has basically nothing to do with maths. You need to be able to think logically, break things down from high level goals to low level steps, and be tenacious in working through design issues and coding bugs.
And, having said of all that, not everyone has to be a genius coder either. The other 99% of software engineers do a decent job, nothing too stellar (but hopefully nothing too crap either). It's ok to not be the best in the world.
700 is NOT a disappointing math SAT score, even for a software engineer, and there are plenty of people with those scores who attended Ivy League schools.
My advice would be to stop worrying about scores (IQ, SAT, whatever) — you’re not in high school any more. And stop comparing yourself to other people.
Are you meeting expectations at work? Getting solid reviews from your manager? That’s what matters.
So you don’t test well? So you didn’t get into the big name companies that have famously grueling interview processes and reject the vast, vast majority of candidates? So what?
There are plenty of other companies out there that need your skills. Badly.
Yes, a bunch of them cargo cult the same ridiculous interview processes as the FAANGs. But not all of them do.
Find the ones that don’t. Find the ones that instead send you a small take-home that mirrors the type of work you’ll be doing daily. Show them that even if you may not be good at solving algorithmic puzzles under pressure, you’re good at writing software.
That’s what matters.
My advice would be to stop worrying about scores (IQ, SAT, whatever) — you’re not in high school any more. And stop comparing yourself to other people.
Are you meeting expectations at work? Getting solid reviews from your manager? That’s what matters.
So you don’t test well? So you didn’t get into the big name companies that have famously grueling interview processes and reject the vast, vast majority of candidates? So what?
There are plenty of other companies out there that need your skills. Badly.
Yes, a bunch of them cargo cult the same ridiculous interview processes as the FAANGs. But not all of them do.
Find the ones that don’t. Find the ones that instead send you a small take-home that mirrors the type of work you’ll be doing daily. Show them that even if you may not be good at solving algorithmic puzzles under pressure, you’re good at writing software.
That’s what matters.
I think I get OK reviews (it’s pretty opaque at my company).
My lower IQ makes me concerned about weathering a downturn or making more money though. The only better offer I got was at a Hedge fund and that was a severe lowball (likely due to interview performance).
My lower IQ makes me concerned about weathering a downturn or making more money though. The only better offer I got was at a Hedge fund and that was a severe lowball (likely due to interview performance).
I would not worry about test scores. Test scores have routinely been show to not correlate with actual job performance.
For coding interviews, to do well, work through all of the hackerrank.com or the equivalent problem sets in your preferred language. At some point you will see the "algorithmic" or "data structure" patterns in the problem sets and you will be able to go forth. I am not sure these even predict job performance though but they are the price you have to pay to "get in".
Also I think the average engineer at a FAANGM company takes 2-3 interviews to actually get in as well. So look at it as a challenge and learning opportunity rather.
For coding interviews, to do well, work through all of the hackerrank.com or the equivalent problem sets in your preferred language. At some point you will see the "algorithmic" or "data structure" patterns in the problem sets and you will be able to go forth. I am not sure these even predict job performance though but they are the price you have to pay to "get in".
Also I think the average engineer at a FAANGM company takes 2-3 interviews to actually get in as well. So look at it as a challenge and learning opportunity rather.
I’ve done like ~250 leetcode problems since undergrad (including redos) and I still fare poorly to get into FB/G. I’ve probably done 3-4 at the FANGs by now outside of my current one but failed all of them, so I’m definitely below the average.
Ok well if you’ve done the work then maybe google isn’t for you. But there is for sure another technology company out there who needs your skills and would love to have you as an employee. Also do you even want to work for google if they place such a high value on leetcode interviews? What are you looking for in a job that Google is the answer?
I want society to see me as valued, as measured in compensation and treatment. Currently people think of me as lesser for where I work.
I get the same number of massage credits (0) at my current job as does an electrician.
I get the same number of massage credits (0) at my current job as does an electrician.
How do you know people think lesser of you? Have you asked people that? Is it really true? Why is what other people think important to you?
People are never impressed when they find out where I work but always are impressed at the perks and prestige of other companies. It feels like a “normal” job, not an elite one.
And yes I have asked others...it’s important because I agree with their thought process on this.
And yes I have asked others...it’s important because I agree with their thought process on this.
Do these other people actually think less of you as a person because of where you work? I get the disconnect between compensation and skill. I think it happens all the time regardless of the companies involved and that your pay is not a function of your actual skill or value but a function of leverage. There is a lot of virtue signaling in leetcode style interviews but the research shows that these types of interviews do not predict job success or even happiness. There is tons of academic research on this. You even see it in the NBA, the NFL, and the MLB.
However these signals are highly leveraged because they map to a compensation measure. Also people with the best offers tend to have the most leverage, meaning they've got multiple offers from equivalents. In fact this was a big problem earlier that the FAANG companies minus Netflix all conspired to suppress wages. Netflix did not because they were small at the time and were definitely not considered elite. Netflix then used mega pay packages to recruit and the rest is history...
So if the probability of getting a job at Google and Facebook is each 0.2%. Then the probability of having multiple offers is 0.0004% .. You mentioned you had a hedge fund offer. That is also pretty good in my opinion. I think all you are missing is leverage and this has nothing to do with IQ. I think your IQ is probably good enough. I also think that IQ is a floor to entry and not a measure of specific success.
So I don't think less of you. You say in another post that you already work at a FAANG! That is quite the achievement.
However these signals are highly leveraged because they map to a compensation measure. Also people with the best offers tend to have the most leverage, meaning they've got multiple offers from equivalents. In fact this was a big problem earlier that the FAANG companies minus Netflix all conspired to suppress wages. Netflix did not because they were small at the time and were definitely not considered elite. Netflix then used mega pay packages to recruit and the rest is history...
So if the probability of getting a job at Google and Facebook is each 0.2%. Then the probability of having multiple offers is 0.0004% .. You mentioned you had a hedge fund offer. That is also pretty good in my opinion. I think all you are missing is leverage and this has nothing to do with IQ. I think your IQ is probably good enough. I also think that IQ is a floor to entry and not a measure of specific success.
So I don't think less of you. You say in another post that you already work at a FAANG! That is quite the achievement.
Yes, I think people do. I don’t get European vacations or work trips in first. I don’t get Hawaiian off sites or bonuses or a free phone or a massage. If I’m lucky I get two free drinks at the Christmas party.
Googlers know this and look down on me for being dumber accordingly.
Googlers know this and look down on me for being dumber accordingly.
Might be a good idea to first get an actual IQ measurement first before making a major career decision based on said IQ. A proper IQ test administered by a psychologist or MD, not an SAT test or an online one.
For what it's worth, I'm QA and I've got a measured IQ in the mid 80's. Thus far I've had no complaints from anyone about it.
For what it's worth, I'm QA and I've got a measured IQ in the mid 80's. Thus far I've had no complaints from anyone about it.
Nothing in your post leads me to believe you actually have a low IQ.
Actual posts from people with low IQ read more like 3+ replies deep in the comments section on a controversial political video on YouTube.
You sound like you have testing anxiety, insecurities, self-confidence issues, self-esteem issues, and self-doubt. The word choice of your post and the way you explain what is going on suggests you have sufficient intelligence. It seems like the biggest blocks to being successful in this field you have are believing in yourself and judging yourself. You keep thinking you should be further along and working at a "better" company. You keep comparing yourself to others and their path.
Stop.
Your life is your own, your path is your own. Your background is your own. Your challenges and dreams are your own. Don't expect your experience to be like everyone else's. There are a wide variety of successful developers from hugely different backgrounds. Some people could only go to a local collage or state university. Some people don't even have a CS degree and are still successful. I know some people with only high school-level education that can debug applications with with a time-travel trace looking at the assembly language level. Many of the people who created the popular frameworks and programming languages don't have the background you would expect. And honestly there are even a few positions at some really well known companies where even below average intelligence people can be successful. There are successful developers who have never worked at a FAANG company and probably never will.
Work on confidence, self-esteem, self-worth, and believing in yourself. Stop judging yourself.
Don't let getting into a FAANG company be your measuring stick of what success is, make that a goal instead. Plenty of people found that when they actually got to a FAANG company, they didn't actually like it, or didn't end up staying very long.
I would ask yourself these questions to see if you are successful:
Are you enjoying your current job?
Are you learning at your current job? / Does your current job prepare you for future jobs?
Are you being paid well at your current job?
Do the benefits of your current job meet your needs?
If you can consistently answer yes to these questions, then you are successful. These are also a good barometer of when to ask for a raise or look for a new job.
Actual posts from people with low IQ read more like 3+ replies deep in the comments section on a controversial political video on YouTube.
You sound like you have testing anxiety, insecurities, self-confidence issues, self-esteem issues, and self-doubt. The word choice of your post and the way you explain what is going on suggests you have sufficient intelligence. It seems like the biggest blocks to being successful in this field you have are believing in yourself and judging yourself. You keep thinking you should be further along and working at a "better" company. You keep comparing yourself to others and their path.
Stop.
Your life is your own, your path is your own. Your background is your own. Your challenges and dreams are your own. Don't expect your experience to be like everyone else's. There are a wide variety of successful developers from hugely different backgrounds. Some people could only go to a local collage or state university. Some people don't even have a CS degree and are still successful. I know some people with only high school-level education that can debug applications with with a time-travel trace looking at the assembly language level. Many of the people who created the popular frameworks and programming languages don't have the background you would expect. And honestly there are even a few positions at some really well known companies where even below average intelligence people can be successful. There are successful developers who have never worked at a FAANG company and probably never will.
Work on confidence, self-esteem, self-worth, and believing in yourself. Stop judging yourself.
Don't let getting into a FAANG company be your measuring stick of what success is, make that a goal instead. Plenty of people found that when they actually got to a FAANG company, they didn't actually like it, or didn't end up staying very long.
I would ask yourself these questions to see if you are successful:
Are you enjoying your current job?
Are you learning at your current job? / Does your current job prepare you for future jobs?
Are you being paid well at your current job?
Do the benefits of your current job meet your needs?
If you can consistently answer yes to these questions, then you are successful. These are also a good barometer of when to ask for a raise or look for a new job.
I do work at a FANG company right now, but it’s the one people think is not full of smart engineers (as measured by labor market value)
1) I don’t hate it but I don’t love it. I don’t think it prepares me for future jobs.
2) I make about 80% of what folks down the street from me make at competing tech firms, and even with the next level promotion I’d still be at 95% or less.
3) they are fine, but not “good”. I feel like I’m not valued based on how I’m treated.
1) I don’t hate it but I don’t love it. I don’t think it prepares me for future jobs.
2) I make about 80% of what folks down the street from me make at competing tech firms, and even with the next level promotion I’d still be at 95% or less.
3) they are fine, but not “good”. I feel like I’m not valued based on how I’m treated.
Strengthen your weakness by learning in great depth in those areas - that will buttress those areas. Persistence:- You can beat a smart engineer who sits on his ass - doggedly complete all you are tasked to do.
I feel like I’m at an impasse in my career - what is the minimum intelligence required to be successful as a software engineer? Or is it more useful for a lower intelligence individual like me to pick a different career path?