'Women write more expressive, sensitive code'(theinquirer.net)
theinquirer.net
'Women write more expressive, sensitive code'
http://www.theinquirer.net/articles/printView/gb/inquirer/news/2008/06/09/women-write-expressive
35 comments
"forcing men to write more detailed accounts of their coding issues, and expressing their programming problems before each new block of code is written. Lovingly written."
Hmm.. I know I wouldn't last there long. My first reaction would be to explain my problems like this:
It was a dark and stormy node; the files served from torrents -- except for occasional intervals when checked by a violent gust of spam which swept up the subnet (for it is in the colo that our scene lies), rattling along the interfaces, and fiercely invalidating the scanty lines of the caches that struggled against the load.
Hmm.. I know I wouldn't last there long. My first reaction would be to explain my problems like this:
It was a dark and stormy node; the files served from torrents -- except for occasional intervals when checked by a violent gust of spam which swept up the subnet (for it is in the colo that our scene lies), rattling along the interfaces, and fiercely invalidating the scanty lines of the caches that struggled against the load.
I assume this is a parody, and as such, it is very well done.
If not, I can only assume that women has never met Steve Yegge.
If not, I can only assume that women has never met Steve Yegge.
It is not a parody. If you follow the link to the original article, you can see that she is just claiming that women are better at documenting code, which is a reasonable hypothesis. The Inquirer on their own account added the slant about womens code being more "sensitive" and so on, probably to make here look like an idiot. (Also fun to see how "user-friendly and gender-neutral" coding standards in WSJ becomes "womanish" coding standards in the Inquirer :-)
Sine there are far fewer women programmers, I would expect the average female programmer to be better than the average male - including being better at documenting code.
However the article sounds like she is only basing it on anecdotal evidence. It would be quite interesting to see a more scientific study.
Sine there are far fewer women programmers, I would expect the average female programmer to be better than the average male - including being better at documenting code.
However the article sounds like she is only basing it on anecdotal evidence. It would be quite interesting to see a more scientific study.
In any case, I absolutely loathe the kind of coding standards she is trying to enforce. It sounds like micromanagement bullshit, forcing developers to do stuff they resent. The extreme endresult are those comments on getters and setters in Java:
/ * gets the variable */
int getVariable() {...}
I could scream and climb up walls when I see that or worse, have to write that. If you don't write the comment, though, some fascist "quality control" algorithm will show a read flag and make the managers unhappy.
I thought the consent by now was that understandable code is to be preferred over comments, especially since comments have a tendency to become stale.
/ * gets the variable */
int getVariable() {...}
I could scream and climb up walls when I see that or worse, have to write that. If you don't write the comment, though, some fascist "quality control" algorithm will show a read flag and make the managers unhappy.
I thought the consent by now was that understandable code is to be preferred over comments, especially since comments have a tendency to become stale.
I think the comments here do a better job of reflecting the problems women are up against as coders, than they do of reflecting the constraints this particular woman has imposed upon her team.
Despite the fact that absolutely no details were provided in the article about her standards, or what she's trying to achieve (other than a few "pithy" interpretations by the author), you've jumped to the conclusion that it's "micromanagement bullshit". You've also taken the most absurd interpretation of her remarks. Why? I'm quite confident that any experienced developer knows the difference between your example, and good documentation practices. Since this particular woman has managed to rise to a position of high authority, perhaps we should give her the benefit of the doubt, hmm?
Anyway...if they weren't so sad, the anguished geek cries of "sexism" in this thread would be hilarious. It's hard to be oppressed by discrimination when you're in the clear and obvious majority.
Despite the fact that absolutely no details were provided in the article about her standards, or what she's trying to achieve (other than a few "pithy" interpretations by the author), you've jumped to the conclusion that it's "micromanagement bullshit". You've also taken the most absurd interpretation of her remarks. Why? I'm quite confident that any experienced developer knows the difference between your example, and good documentation practices. Since this particular woman has managed to rise to a position of high authority, perhaps we should give her the benefit of the doubt, hmm?
Anyway...if they weren't so sad, the anguished geek cries of "sexism" in this thread would be hilarious. It's hard to be oppressed by discrimination when you're in the clear and obvious majority.
What makes you think my comment would have been different if she had not been a woman, but a man? I have experienced enforced comments, and that was in all men environments. I have complained about it against men, too.
I feel confident enough from my experience to say that her commenting rules are bullshit. I gave the reasons, too: comments are bad because they go stale. Enforced comments lead to ridiculous comments and tedious typing work that is resented by developers. If she really has found a way around that, it would be sensational, I would love to read an article about it. If she has several mandatory comment fields in the code, it is essentially just a TPS report translated to coding. Before you can write any code, you have to fill in a form - that can't be fun, not matter if the boss is male or female.
Maybe she is still a super-coder, it is not as if she is the only one coming up with awful rules in face of the unsolved problem of managing IT projects. Most managers probably resort to such means eventually (that's why the TPS report joke exists), and then forget to switch back when it doesn't work out. That is why big companies become horrible work places in the long run. Now she works for a big company, so maybe she does a good job for that environment - I don't mean that as demeaning, I guess somebody had to do the corporate stuff (I actually envy corporate folks for their endurance and staying power). I merely pointed out that I loathe that kind of thing. If you like it, more power to you.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but this really has nothing to do with sexism. On the other hand, you display exactly the kind of "political correctness" that makes people resent issues like sexism, because it is just used as a manipulative tool (you can always brush off criticism by crying "sexism").
I feel confident enough from my experience to say that her commenting rules are bullshit. I gave the reasons, too: comments are bad because they go stale. Enforced comments lead to ridiculous comments and tedious typing work that is resented by developers. If she really has found a way around that, it would be sensational, I would love to read an article about it. If she has several mandatory comment fields in the code, it is essentially just a TPS report translated to coding. Before you can write any code, you have to fill in a form - that can't be fun, not matter if the boss is male or female.
Maybe she is still a super-coder, it is not as if she is the only one coming up with awful rules in face of the unsolved problem of managing IT projects. Most managers probably resort to such means eventually (that's why the TPS report joke exists), and then forget to switch back when it doesn't work out. That is why big companies become horrible work places in the long run. Now she works for a big company, so maybe she does a good job for that environment - I don't mean that as demeaning, I guess somebody had to do the corporate stuff (I actually envy corporate folks for their endurance and staying power). I merely pointed out that I loathe that kind of thing. If you like it, more power to you.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but this really has nothing to do with sexism. On the other hand, you display exactly the kind of "political correctness" that makes people resent issues like sexism, because it is just used as a manipulative tool (you can always brush off criticism by crying "sexism").
"You've also taken the most absurd interpretation of her remarks"
Where do you read that? I have not referred to her remarks in any way, I only referred to the practice of enforced comments in general. I don't even know if she's a Java Developer.
I see this kind of commenting every day, from experienced developers, too. There are now tools that run automatically (like during the nightly build) and rise red flags if a Java method doesn't have comments, so people write those stupid comments to shut up the tool. I have also seen the "get the value" comments in enterprise level open source projects. It is the way developers kill time these days.
Where do you read that? I have not referred to her remarks in any way, I only referred to the practice of enforced comments in general. I don't even know if she's a Java Developer.
I see this kind of commenting every day, from experienced developers, too. There are now tools that run automatically (like during the nightly build) and rise red flags if a Java method doesn't have comments, so people write those stupid comments to shut up the tool. I have also seen the "get the value" comments in enterprise level open source projects. It is the way developers kill time these days.
"I absolutely loathe the kind of coding standards she is trying to enforce. It sounds like micromanagement bullshit, forcing developers to do stuff they resent."
Unless you work for her, or know her personally, you have no idea what kind of coding standards she's trying to enforce. You've referenced her management and called it bullshit, because you've assumed that she's doing absurd things that you've experienced on bad projects in the past.
Unless you work for her, or know her personally, you have no idea what kind of coding standards she's trying to enforce. You've referenced her management and called it bullshit, because you've assumed that she's doing absurd things that you've experienced on bad projects in the past.
Quote from the WSJ article (italics by me): "In an effort to make Ingres’s computer code more user-friendly and gender-neutral, McGrattan helped institute new coding standards at the company. They require programmers to include a detailed set of comments before each block of code explaining what the piece of code does and why; developers also must supply a detailed history of any changes they have made to the code"
That is more than enough to make a judgment in that case.
That is more than enough to make a judgment in that case.
No, you're jumping to conclusions.
Requiring a "detailed set of comments before each block of code" doesn't imply that the comments have to be there if they're inane.
Requiring a "detailed set of comments before each block of code" doesn't imply that the comments have to be there if they're inane.
I have stated my personal preferences. It is fine if you disagree (I honestly don't care), but it is not OK to call me sexist for it.
Who called you sexist? I haven't even used the word in this thread.
I've said that you're jumping to conclusions, and implied that your reaction to this one woman is hostile, but I've never accused you of being sexist. Perhaps you need to take a step back and re-read what I've written.
I've said that you're jumping to conclusions, and implied that your reaction to this one woman is hostile, but I've never accused you of being sexist. Perhaps you need to take a step back and re-read what I've written.
You have written
"I think the comments here do a better job of reflecting the problems women are up against as coders [...] if they weren't so sad, the anguished geek cries of "sexism" in this thread would be hilarious. It's hard to be oppressed by discrimination when you're in the clear and obvious majority."
If I somehow misinterpreted that, my apologies - english is just my second language.
"I think the comments here do a better job of reflecting the problems women are up against as coders [...] if they weren't so sad, the anguished geek cries of "sexism" in this thread would be hilarious. It's hard to be oppressed by discrimination when you're in the clear and obvious majority."
If I somehow misinterpreted that, my apologies - english is just my second language.
Ah...I see. I wasn't talking about you (or calling anyone sexist), but the wording was kind of subtle. I was referring to the many other comments that were/are complaining about the "sexism" of the story.
It really depends on what kind of code you are writing. If you are writing a component or framework with a public API to be consumed by others, it is very important to document methods throughly. I agree that the code itself should be as clear and understandable as possible, and a superfluous comment is worse than no comment - DRY.
However the more complex and clever the code get, the more you need comments. Note that Knuth, one of the smartest and manliest programmers, invented literate programming.
We have no idea whether the woman in question demand stupid superfluous rote comments, or rather want well-documented API's or literate code ala Knuth.
BTW. I think the Inquirers slant on the article is clearly sexist, but also that she brought it upon herself by framing the issue in terms of men vs woman.
However the more complex and clever the code get, the more you need comments. Note that Knuth, one of the smartest and manliest programmers, invented literate programming.
We have no idea whether the woman in question demand stupid superfluous rote comments, or rather want well-documented API's or literate code ala Knuth.
BTW. I think the Inquirers slant on the article is clearly sexist, but also that she brought it upon herself by framing the issue in terms of men vs woman.
Explain the statistical reasoning behind "since there are fewer, you expect them to be better".
My reasoning is: because of male dominance and stereotypes in IT, women will think twice about entering the field. Therefore the ones who choose it, will be more passionate and determined than the average male colleague.
It is just my theory, I have never seen any statistical evidence one way or the other.
It is just my theory, I have never seen any statistical evidence one way or the other.
Fair enough.
I've worked in this biz a long time, and have worked with several women, and I've yet to see useful documentation...
Something I have learnt the hard way: Comments are bad for you.
I used to be a big proponent of comments too, until I realized that having the right variable and function names makes for much better documentation. Any time a chunk of code gets complicated enough for you to feel you need to comment it, you should just abstract it into another function. If you look at arc.arc it is very much written in this fashion.
The problem with comments is that they are not tightly coupled to the implementing code .. if someone comments something and then someone else comes along and changes the code without changing the comment, and then someone else comes along and tries to figure out the code by reading the comment ...
I used to be a big proponent of comments too, until I realized that having the right variable and function names makes for much better documentation. Any time a chunk of code gets complicated enough for you to feel you need to comment it, you should just abstract it into another function. If you look at arc.arc it is very much written in this fashion.
The problem with comments is that they are not tightly coupled to the implementing code .. if someone comments something and then someone else comes along and changes the code without changing the comment, and then someone else comes along and tries to figure out the code by reading the comment ...
I've found this to be true in a bad way. One female co-worker writes comments like this:
//Get the HttpSession from request.
HttpSession session = request.getSession();
To anyone who knows Java, that comment is just a waste of space that gets in the way.
//Get the HttpSession from request.
HttpSession session = request.getSession();
To anyone who knows Java, that comment is just a waste of space that gets in the way.
"The superwoman of code ..... forcing men to write more detailed accounts of their coding issues, and expressing their programming problems before each new block of code is written"
You know much better your programming problems after starting writting code. Prototyping facilitates thinking and designing. The "superwoman" is clueless.
You know much better your programming problems after starting writting code. Prototyping facilitates thinking and designing. The "superwoman" is clueless.
interesting... care to show us this 'wonderful superwoman code' so we can emulate its style?
What a load of sexist bullshit. I've worked with several women coders. Some were better than others. It's only possible to make this kind of ridiculous blanket statement because so few women coders exist in the first place. Small sample size, nada mas.
(Yes, I accused a woman of being sexist. If that doesn't make sense to you please Google sexism instead of bothering me.)
(Yes, I accused a woman of being sexist. If that doesn't make sense to you please Google sexism instead of bothering me.)
Two words: crocodile tears.
I'd think I'd trade 80% of the sexist men in this industry for a few more sexist women.
I'd think I'd trade 80% of the sexist men in this industry for a few more sexist women.
I've been in this business a long time and have yet to meet any women who write code.
I haven't been in this business that long, but I have met women who write code.
Conclusion: we live in parallel universes. That, or single points of data aren't all that useful to a discussion.
Conclusion: we live in parallel universes. That, or single points of data aren't all that useful to a discussion.
I've hired several. Maybe I just got all of them?
I've been in this "business" for a short time, and I've met several. Which goes to show you, your personal experience is generally a bad foundation for making sweeping generalizations.
I just consider dev-shops that are female dominated to be Black Swans. They haven't happened, and they are unlikely to exist right now, but they certainly could have occurred if some social factors were different, and they certainly might in the future...
I just consider dev-shops that are female dominated to be Black Swans. They haven't happened, and they are unlikely to exist right now, but they certainly could have occurred if some social factors were different, and they certainly might in the future...
Upmodded for the the humor that is almost true.
And men write more code, period.
I guess I should have made the tongue-in-cheek humor a bit more obvious (my reply was referring to the sensationalist headlines) - I actually have two brilliant women working for me and their coding is awesome :)
There's one source, and she's...playa hating, to say the least.
Advocating underrepresented minorities is like riding a tank. It's fun, nobody will disagree with you, and if a "tank man" (cf. Tiananmen square) shows up, you can effectively lynch him (cf. Lawrence Summers, James Watson).
Now, blatant reverse sexism aside, is the writer correct? There's one source, who may be an itsy-bit biased, but yeah, I believe it. It could be true that women document more. I don't think that they're categorically superior coders, though, as this article seems to imply, and I'm not exactly eager to work at that database company.