The Secret History of Dune(lareviewofbooks.org)
lareviewofbooks.org
The Secret History of Dune
https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/the-secret-history-of-dune/
13 comments
It would help if they at least stayed consistent with the few words we get. Fine, elaborate from there as much as you like. Go wild, but at least respect the starting point. So I don't really care what the Aba Robes the Bene Gesserit wear look like, as long as they are kind of recognisable as an Abaya, or based on it, or at least derived from it. Not the trussed up, constraining taffeta monstrosities David Lynch had them squeezed into. They were about as far from the word 'robe' as you can possibly get and still be clothing.
I did like the look of Blade Runner 2049 though, so I have hope for the upcoming movie.
I did like the look of Blade Runner 2049 though, so I have hope for the upcoming movie.
One of the more entertaining things about Dune is that it's been relatively bad at attracting fanfic and cosplay.
It's so ambiguous, rich, and open to interpretation that it's a daunting universe to visit as a casual tourist - and it's so stark and amoral that it's hard to feel comfortably at home in it, even if you're a fan.
Which is why it's such a challenge for directors. The visuals are critical, but it would take an uncanny imagination to make them work as metaphors as well as images.
IMO Lynch was a bit too literally imperial and historic. The movie feels more pedestrian and earth-bound than the books do, with some of the grandeur squeezed out by obvious signifiers and references.
The Jodorowsky version would probably have been amazing. I'm looking forward to the Villeneuve version, but I think Jodorowsky's Dune would have been a real game changer for SF movies - and all the characters would have been strikingly but plausibly weird, the BG included.
It's so ambiguous, rich, and open to interpretation that it's a daunting universe to visit as a casual tourist - and it's so stark and amoral that it's hard to feel comfortably at home in it, even if you're a fan.
Which is why it's such a challenge for directors. The visuals are critical, but it would take an uncanny imagination to make them work as metaphors as well as images.
IMO Lynch was a bit too literally imperial and historic. The movie feels more pedestrian and earth-bound than the books do, with some of the grandeur squeezed out by obvious signifiers and references.
The Jodorowsky version would probably have been amazing. I'm looking forward to the Villeneuve version, but I think Jodorowsky's Dune would have been a real game changer for SF movies - and all the characters would have been strikingly but plausibly weird, the BG included.
> One of the more entertaining things about Dune is that it's been relatively bad at attracting fanfic and cosplay.
well, unless you consider the "prequels" and two subsequent novels as "fanfic", which I do, and am apparently not alone since they seem to want to change canon so much.
> I think Jodorowsky's Dune would have been a real game changer for SF movies
even as far as he got was an amazing game changer for SF movies. the teams he put together, his story boards, and almost every aspect of what he created went on to define the sci-fi genre at the time. it's no coincidence that so many of those involved in Star Wars had been involved in Jodorowski's Dune adaptation.
well, unless you consider the "prequels" and two subsequent novels as "fanfic", which I do, and am apparently not alone since they seem to want to change canon so much.
> I think Jodorowsky's Dune would have been a real game changer for SF movies
even as far as he got was an amazing game changer for SF movies. the teams he put together, his story boards, and almost every aspect of what he created went on to define the sci-fi genre at the time. it's no coincidence that so many of those involved in Star Wars had been involved in Jodorowski's Dune adaptation.
After watching the wonderful documentary Jodorowski’s Dune [1], I think we already have that film.
As others mentioned here, and as the doc drives home, it’s pretty much Star Wars.
It wasn’t necessarily a wholesale ripoff, but are there a large number of similarities? And could they have been truly just coincidences? There had to be massive pollination from that Dune version to Star Wars Episode IV.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jodorowsky%27s_Dune
As others mentioned here, and as the doc drives home, it’s pretty much Star Wars.
It wasn’t necessarily a wholesale ripoff, but are there a large number of similarities? And could they have been truly just coincidences? There had to be massive pollination from that Dune version to Star Wars Episode IV.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jodorowsky%27s_Dune
Hasn't much of the work been incorporated into the Alien movies?
JMS's Centauri republic is kind of how I imagine the Empire
I enjoyed the TV mini series:
https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0142032/
https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0287839/
Ed: apparently the upcoming movie will get a companion TV series about the bene gesserit:
https://www.engadget.com/2019/06/11/dune-the-sisterhood-warn...
https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0142032/
https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0287839/
Ed: apparently the upcoming movie will get a companion TV series about the bene gesserit:
https://www.engadget.com/2019/06/11/dune-the-sisterhood-warn...
The mini series was... earnest. To me, it was a fine reminder that, while letting someone like Lynch ride roughshod over the source material isn't great, you can still get a pretty mediocre result from being faithful to the source material.
IMO the biggest weak spot of the miniseries was that it was about 50/50 good actors and terrible ones; and nothing shows this up more than scenes shared between both types of actors. The adaptation of Gormenghast had the same problem. It's almost better to have all indifferent actors, rather than have John Hurt swapping lines with someone who would be lucky to get a role in a soap opera.
IMO the biggest weak spot of the miniseries was that it was about 50/50 good actors and terrible ones; and nothing shows this up more than scenes shared between both types of actors. The adaptation of Gormenghast had the same problem. It's almost better to have all indifferent actors, rather than have John Hurt swapping lines with someone who would be lucky to get a role in a soap opera.
Yep, it was actually pretty good. I went in with low expectations which were handily exceeded. While I wouldn't say it was ideal, it was definitely worth watching.
I agree. Opinions differ, some people like the Lynch movie better than the mini series, but I definitely liked the mini series while I found the Lynch movie virtually unwatchable.
I think the Lynch movie could have done better with better writers and less wooden actors. Some of the scenes cut around like cheap spaghetti westerns. Really bad editing...
Not only does it lend itself well to the imagination, it provides protection against the immersion-breaking reaction that overly-descriptive future predictions create when they're inevitably wrong.
It was really brilliant of him to have the Butlerian Jihad as context for an in-world technology limitations - while also simultaneously showing off a highly-developed and syncretic social structures, especially with the use of religion, to still give it a believable and excitable feel of the future. It gives the book a universe feel that is very hard to re-capture when reading other books by some other sci-fi masters of their era.
It was really brilliant of him to have the Butlerian Jihad as context for an in-world technology limitations - while also simultaneously showing off a highly-developed and syncretic social structures, especially with the use of religion, to still give it a believable and excitable feel of the future. It gives the book a universe feel that is very hard to re-capture when reading other books by some other sci-fi masters of their era.
A lot of sci fi seems to have used this to explain why AI didn't take over and weirder technologies evolved. Pretty neat actually.
Sometimes digressions can be fun though - Neal Stephenson's works or the footnotes of Infinite Jest.
Peter F Hamilton, in "Pandora's Star", introduces his enemy alien race all in one go, from the beginnings of their civilization to meeting humans. It is AWESOME. By the time you get back to the humans you might have to make an effort to recall why you care about them.
The Bartimaeus Trilogy by Jonathan Stroud is still probably my favorite example of footnotes done right. Without spoiling anything, one of the POV characters is an ancient djinni, who makes liberal use of footnotes for a good blend of comedy and exposition.
I remember a few of those footnotes taking up half the page! Brilliant books, I loved them as a teen.
Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell edges it to take first prize imho, but it's a close one.
>Sometimes digressions can be fun though - Neal Stephenson's works or the footnotes of Infinite Jest.
Shudders
Not for everyone.
Shudders
Not for everyone.
Tim O'Reilly: Frank Herbert (online version)
https://www.oreilly.com/tim/herbert/
"I wrote Frank Herbert over a period of about two years, and it was published in 1981. In the course of writing it, I read all of Herbert’s novels, stories, and essays, as well as a lot of his newspaper writing (which, by coincidence, included a stint at the Santa Rosa Press Democrat, the local paper for the region in which I now live.) I interviewed him several times, and, in a small way, we became friends. His ideas came to influence me deeply. I had always loved Dune and Dune Messiah, and especially the idea that predicting the future too closely can lead to a kind of paralysis. But the deeper I went, the more substance I found. Ecology, mysticism, and a kind of hard-headed insistence on the relativity of human perception and the limits of knowledge combine into a richer mix than is found in a lot of science-fiction. There’s some really cool stuff here!"
(Yeah, that's Tim O'Reilly from O'Reilly Publishing...)
It is a must-read for all Dune fans.
"I wrote Frank Herbert over a period of about two years, and it was published in 1981. In the course of writing it, I read all of Herbert’s novels, stories, and essays, as well as a lot of his newspaper writing (which, by coincidence, included a stint at the Santa Rosa Press Democrat, the local paper for the region in which I now live.) I interviewed him several times, and, in a small way, we became friends. His ideas came to influence me deeply. I had always loved Dune and Dune Messiah, and especially the idea that predicting the future too closely can lead to a kind of paralysis. But the deeper I went, the more substance I found. Ecology, mysticism, and a kind of hard-headed insistence on the relativity of human perception and the limits of knowledge combine into a richer mix than is found in a lot of science-fiction. There’s some really cool stuff here!"
(Yeah, that's Tim O'Reilly from O'Reilly Publishing...)
It is a must-read for all Dune fans.
Hey, thanks for this link. I can't believe I haven't come across this before now.
TIL about Lesley Blanch, quite an interesting travel writer, her obit in NYT sums her life well (https://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/11/arts/11blanch.html), also see this article (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/bookreviews/113478...) that identifies "The Traveler". Do we still have larger than life, wonderfully knowledgeable men and women any more?
As an aside, kanly seems to be a loanword from Turkish with the same meaning, from kan (blood). For a study of other borrowings see (https://dergipark.org.tr/download/article-file/155177)
As an aside, kanly seems to be a loanword from Turkish with the same meaning, from kan (blood). For a study of other borrowings see (https://dergipark.org.tr/download/article-file/155177)
much more to this story.
herbert was hired to write an article about how oregon was using grasses to stabilize their dunes, and the article, 'they stopped the moving sands', was never published, but inspired the novel to come
https://www.latimes.com/entertainment/la-ca-dune18-2010apr18...
see also this article about arabic words & islamic themes in the book
https://baheyeldin.com/literature/arabic-and-islamic-themes-...
90s pastiche fantasist robert jordan borrowed herbert's technique and even some of his lexicon
herbert was hired to write an article about how oregon was using grasses to stabilize their dunes, and the article, 'they stopped the moving sands', was never published, but inspired the novel to come
https://www.latimes.com/entertainment/la-ca-dune18-2010apr18...
see also this article about arabic words & islamic themes in the book
https://baheyeldin.com/literature/arabic-and-islamic-themes-...
90s pastiche fantasist robert jordan borrowed herbert's technique and even some of his lexicon
I'm betting it was less borrowing and more that both were Freemasons (Robert Jordan has specifically said there are elements inspired by the fraternity).
The fraternity doesn't require a specific religious belief, but lodges generally slant Jewish, Christian, and Muslim. Many of the various degrees delve into Islamic lore and philosophy. For example, the most public-facing Masonic group (not a degree itself) is the Shriners (they raise money for a bunch of children's hospital they run) and the trapping are Islamic.
Rather than copying per-se, both are simply taking what they learned as they rose through the different degrees and are applying that shared philosophy to their writings.
The fraternity doesn't require a specific religious belief, but lodges generally slant Jewish, Christian, and Muslim. Many of the various degrees delve into Islamic lore and philosophy. For example, the most public-facing Masonic group (not a degree itself) is the Shriners (they raise money for a bunch of children's hospital they run) and the trapping are Islamic.
Rather than copying per-se, both are simply taking what they learned as they rose through the different degrees and are applying that shared philosophy to their writings.
There's more to the story even than that. I read the draft of "They Stopped The Moving Sands" in The Road to Dune and wondered: whatever happened to the dune control project? It turns out that the grasses they planted then to control the dunes are now regarded as invasive species, and Boy Scouts earn merit badges by ripping them up.
For folks interested in the analysis of Dune (and Frank Herbert’s subsequent works), the Podside Picnic podcast (https://soundcloud.com/user-733327042) ran a “Dune History Month” in August which is worth checking out. The recent one on the Dune Encyclopedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dune_Encyclopedia) was fascinating.
Herbert used many sources. "Kwisatz Haderach" for example comes from Kabbalstic tradition, which in Hebrew (kfitzas haderekh - קפיצת הדרך) means "contraction of the way", referring to ability to warp space (i.e. to travel huge distances in short time). He even describes the term the same way.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kefitzat_Haderech
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kefitzat_Haderech
Reading a biography of TE Lawrence and his magnificent book Seven Pillars of Wisdom, I realized that the story of Paul Atreides in Dune is largely based on his life.
In this summer, for my vacations, I've decided to re-read several of sci-fi books, with some popular new ones, and opted for a ebook reader (kindle) to avoid carring several pounds of books to the beach. Started with Isaac Azimov's Foundation triology (all), made a jump to William Gibson's Neuromancer and now, just ended Frank Herbert's Dune (1st volume only).
Coincidence is seeing this article just after returning from the vacation's, still imagining riding on a Shai-Hulud.
The only true comment that would like to add to this thread regarding Blanch's "The Sabre Paradise" is something that I've heard from an old teacher: most, probably all the books are derived from Homer's Odyssey; which created most of the writing styles, characters constructions and interactions, world creations, etc. After, there's not a single book that brought anything new to the writing, except the way you mix or the characters that you replace.
But even with this idea in mind, we cannot say that reading Homer's Odyssey means that you've read ALL the books, and there isn't not even that this is the best of books. To be honest I like the imagination created by it, but it's real "drag" if you try reading it...
At the end, for me at least, what counts is the mood: I prefer Dune over "The Sabre Paradise", the same way that I prefer J.R.Talkien's Lord of the Rings over "All Quiets on Western Front", even if both are based on the developments of the Great World War (I).
If you have time (and mood) read'em all... But still, keep away from "Odyssey" (there are a lot of more fun versions of the same story)! :)
PS: My next books in line are the (new for me) "Hyperion" and "Three Body Problem" from Liu Cixin. And recommended detours? :)
Coincidence is seeing this article just after returning from the vacation's, still imagining riding on a Shai-Hulud.
The only true comment that would like to add to this thread regarding Blanch's "The Sabre Paradise" is something that I've heard from an old teacher: most, probably all the books are derived from Homer's Odyssey; which created most of the writing styles, characters constructions and interactions, world creations, etc. After, there's not a single book that brought anything new to the writing, except the way you mix or the characters that you replace.
But even with this idea in mind, we cannot say that reading Homer's Odyssey means that you've read ALL the books, and there isn't not even that this is the best of books. To be honest I like the imagination created by it, but it's real "drag" if you try reading it...
At the end, for me at least, what counts is the mood: I prefer Dune over "The Sabre Paradise", the same way that I prefer J.R.Talkien's Lord of the Rings over "All Quiets on Western Front", even if both are based on the developments of the Great World War (I).
If you have time (and mood) read'em all... But still, keep away from "Odyssey" (there are a lot of more fun versions of the same story)! :)
PS: My next books in line are the (new for me) "Hyperion" and "Three Body Problem" from Liu Cixin. And recommended detours? :)
My opinion is to read 3 body problem first and complete the trilogy. I like Hyperion and read all the series but found each subsequent book less satisfying than the last (kind of like reading the sequels to Ender's Game). On the other hand, the series by Cixin gets even better after the first.
Have you read The Sparrow or any of Ted Chiang's short stories?
Have you read The Sparrow or any of Ted Chiang's short stories?
I read Chiang's Exhalation [0] prompted by your question. So much story in so few (6505) words! Great use of a crafted universe to tell a story relevant to us. That's the beauty of sci-fi as I understand it. Worth the 30 minutes.
[0]: http://www.nightshadebooks.com/Downloads/Exhalation%20-%20Te...
[0]: http://www.nightshadebooks.com/Downloads/Exhalation%20-%20Te...
Thanks, I haven't read it yet, as I wanted to order the new collection it's published in. I really enjoyed his collection of short stories:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stories_of_Your_Life_and_Oth...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stories_of_Your_Life_and_Oth...
Just want to add that the Three Body Problem trilogy is exceptionally good. The first book is the slowest, so make sure you read the other two as well. Each one builds up on the last.
The Digital Antiquarian did three pieces on adapting Dune a to a screen (movie and game): https://www.filfre.net/2018/11/controlling-the-spice-part-1-...
These are great, inspiring, detailed oriented articles which brush the history of the teams who loving the book, tried to port it. The first part gives many details on Herbert inspiration and sources, and explain what drove Jodorowsky and Lynch (among others) to make a movie out of it. The following articles are about the games, Dune 1 and Dune 2 (the first RTS game!).
This is a great read and the whole website is a treasure trove of great articles about the history of many games of legend, check it out!
These are great, inspiring, detailed oriented articles which brush the history of the teams who loving the book, tried to port it. The first part gives many details on Herbert inspiration and sources, and explain what drove Jodorowsky and Lynch (among others) to make a movie out of it. The following articles are about the games, Dune 1 and Dune 2 (the first RTS game!).
This is a great read and the whole website is a treasure trove of great articles about the history of many games of legend, check it out!
Side question: Is it worth reading the entire series of books?
In my opinion: Yes!
Here's the advice I give to people about the entire Dune series:
Read Dune. If you don't like it, stop.
Read Dune Messiah. If you don't like it, stop.
Read Children of Dune. If you liked Messiah you'll probably like this as well.
Read God Emperor of Dune. This one stands alone. Lots of people hate it. Whether you like it or not, don't stop.
Read Heretics of Dune. If you don't like it, stop.
Read Chapterhouse: Dune. Weep that it's over.
In my experience, people who like Dune generally will enjoy at least through Children of Dune. Anyone who enjoys God Emperor of Dune is insane (maybe why it might be my favorite).
Regarding the other Dune books, read them out of curiosity if you like, but they're not really Dune books despite being in that universe. I've read about seven of them out of optimism and hope but didn't enjoy them at all. Even Sandworms of Dune which is ostensibly based on Frank Herbert's notes for Dune 7 wasn't enjoyable to me, although it was least bad.
Here's the advice I give to people about the entire Dune series:
Read Dune. If you don't like it, stop.
Read Dune Messiah. If you don't like it, stop.
Read Children of Dune. If you liked Messiah you'll probably like this as well.
Read God Emperor of Dune. This one stands alone. Lots of people hate it. Whether you like it or not, don't stop.
Read Heretics of Dune. If you don't like it, stop.
Read Chapterhouse: Dune. Weep that it's over.
In my experience, people who like Dune generally will enjoy at least through Children of Dune. Anyone who enjoys God Emperor of Dune is insane (maybe why it might be my favorite).
Regarding the other Dune books, read them out of curiosity if you like, but they're not really Dune books despite being in that universe. I've read about seven of them out of optimism and hope but didn't enjoy them at all. Even Sandworms of Dune which is ostensibly based on Frank Herbert's notes for Dune 7 wasn't enjoyable to me, although it was least bad.
> Read God Emperor of Dune. This one stands alone. Lots of people hate it. Whether you like it or not, don't stop.
Here is the plot of God Emperor of Dune: <SPOILER> sits on their butt all day and discusses politics. Oh, there's a sort of assassination plot happening on the side, but let's not let that distract us from hearing political ruminations!
As for (some of) the Dune books whose position in canon is of some dispute:
... I can't recall anything that happened in Dune 7. Surprisingly forgettable. Then again, I don't remember a lot of Heretics or Chapterhouse in the first place.
The pre-prequels are set during the events of the Butlerian Jihad and suffer horribly from the sin of feeling the need to explain the genesis of every single important piece of lore in the series. Be amazed as every important event in the universe happened within a hundred years of each other, no matter how unrelated they are to one another.
Here is the plot of God Emperor of Dune: <SPOILER> sits on their butt all day and discusses politics. Oh, there's a sort of assassination plot happening on the side, but let's not let that distract us from hearing political ruminations!
As for (some of) the Dune books whose position in canon is of some dispute:
... I can't recall anything that happened in Dune 7. Surprisingly forgettable. Then again, I don't remember a lot of Heretics or Chapterhouse in the first place.
The pre-prequels are set during the events of the Butlerian Jihad and suffer horribly from the sin of feeling the need to explain the genesis of every single important piece of lore in the series. Be amazed as every important event in the universe happened within a hundred years of each other, no matter how unrelated they are to one another.
I mean if you take a reductive tack like that then you can say the plot of Moby Dick is just that a certain sea captain chases a whale around and some poor simp is along for the ride.
The plot isn't the sum of these works, it is the scaffolding provided so that the author can explore various themes and theses.
The plot isn't the sum of these works, it is the scaffolding provided so that the author can explore various themes and theses.
God Emperor of Dune is my 2nd favourite of the series after Dune - I regret reading the novels after that though.
Yes, with the additional advice to try to get through the first 100 pages of Dune before judging -- it took me that long to really get into the story. Also I think Dune and Messiah were originally meant to be one book, and for whatever reason they ended up being two books.
Otherwise I thought the entire series worth reading, Messiah and God Emperor included.
Otherwise I thought the entire series worth reading, Messiah and God Emperor included.
> it took me that long to really get into the story
Was there anything in particular that turned you off? I do remember putting off reading it for several years because it simply didn't sound that interesting and the feudal aspects sounded more like fantasy than sci fi. I'm genuinely surprised by that comment though because I thought there was more than enough intrigue and mystery introduced early on, I was hooked almost instantly.
Was there anything in particular that turned you off? I do remember putting off reading it for several years because it simply didn't sound that interesting and the feudal aspects sounded more like fantasy than sci fi. I'm genuinely surprised by that comment though because I thought there was more than enough intrigue and mystery introduced early on, I was hooked almost instantly.
More like nothing in particular grabbed me. Personal taste I suppose. Also I was fairly young when I first read it (very early teen?). I may feel differently about it now, though it’s been years since I’ve reread it so I don’t really know.
> In my experience, people who like Dune generally will enjoy at least through Children of Dune.
When I was very young and first found the Dune books, I liked Dune, but failed to finish Dune Messiah, let alone the rest. A few years later I re-read Dune, plus Dune Messiah and Children of Dune. I needed some maturing I suppose.
I stopped after that at the time because my parents only had the first 3 books, the book's front matter listed exactly those 3 books, and there was no internet yet to tell me there were 6 books instead of 3.
> Anyone who enjoys God Emperor of Dune is insane (maybe why it might be my favorite).
Some more years later I was browsing the sci-fi section of a bookstore and to my surprise found 3 more Dune books. Read them all, enjoyed them all, even God Emperor of Dune.
I read one or maybe two of the prequels; enough to decide that continuing reading the _other_ Dune books was not a good idea.
When I was very young and first found the Dune books, I liked Dune, but failed to finish Dune Messiah, let alone the rest. A few years later I re-read Dune, plus Dune Messiah and Children of Dune. I needed some maturing I suppose.
I stopped after that at the time because my parents only had the first 3 books, the book's front matter listed exactly those 3 books, and there was no internet yet to tell me there were 6 books instead of 3.
> Anyone who enjoys God Emperor of Dune is insane (maybe why it might be my favorite).
Some more years later I was browsing the sci-fi section of a bookstore and to my surprise found 3 more Dune books. Read them all, enjoyed them all, even God Emperor of Dune.
I read one or maybe two of the prequels; enough to decide that continuing reading the _other_ Dune books was not a good idea.
I played Dune 2 first (in ~1993), then saw Lynch's Dune, then played Dune 2000, and then saw the Dune miniseries and Children of Dune (which, in a fan move, I posted on Usenet and got me my first and only DMCA warning from the MPAA :^). 10 years or so later, I bought the book Dune, and a few years later I finally read it. It is a legendary book indeed, but I wish I read the book first.
If you can, please read the book first before seeing/doing anything else in the universe. Don't let your imagination be spoiled!
(I'm not very interested in reading the sequels. Children of Dune was a terrible movie, IMO.)
Which makes me wonder what I missed with regards to J.R. Tolkien and George R. Martin.
If you can, please read the book first before seeing/doing anything else in the universe. Don't let your imagination be spoiled!
(I'm not very interested in reading the sequels. Children of Dune was a terrible movie, IMO.)
Which makes me wonder what I missed with regards to J.R. Tolkien and George R. Martin.
> Which makes me wonder what I missed with regards to J.R. Tolkien and George R. Martin.
A second "R", for one.
A second "R", for one.
Dune Messiah is meh, but Children of Dune are great.
I really liked all the books (original, not the abominations that were written after Frank Herbert died) besides the Messiah, not sure why.
I'm in an odd camp - I only ever liked the first book and found I really disliked all the rest. I read the first four and got half way through Heretics before finally stopping, so I did give it a decent try IMO.
I have since reread the first book a fair few times (most recently via the excellent Audible audiobook production) but never had any desire to try the subsequent novels again.
I have since reread the first book a fair few times (most recently via the excellent Audible audiobook production) but never had any desire to try the subsequent novels again.
I enjoyed Sandworms.
At some point, I was so sucked into the Dune universe that any continuation would have intrigued me.
At some point, I was so sucked into the Dune universe that any continuation would have intrigued me.
I liked Sandworms also. I get that it doesn't stack up to the first 4, but to be me, neither did Heretics or Chapterhouse.
God Emperor would be my favourite, with Children of Dune following after
God Emperor would be my favourite, with Children of Dune following after
Am I the only one who finds 1-3 to be utterly boring and 4-6 to be absolutely brilliant? (4 is my favourite.)
I love all 6 books in different ways. Heretics was my favourite though
Closing out my 8th read-through of the original 6. Just finished Heretics yesterday. I first read it when it came out in the 80s. It's still awesome.
Word of warning, the entire series of books should be considered the six books written by Frank Herbert, not any of the poor worse-than-fan-fiction by Brian Herbert + Kevin J Anderson.
I read a few of those and it's just like reading later Sherlock Holmes pastiche. They both capture the setting and the mechanics and completely exorcise the spirit. It's almost sad to read things like that. It's the wish that the author had written still more in mortal conflict with the fact that he didn't.
The 4th book in the series is the one that either makes you hate Dune or love it. Up until that point it could pass for some interesting sci-fi fantasy, but after that point, either you'll put down the book in boredom or find yourself utterly mindblown.
I highly recommend it.
I highly recommend it.
If you're referring only to the Frank Herbert books, then having read them through twice let me offer a resounding YES. They stay really solid throughout, arguably the weakest chapter of the whole series is the second, "Dune Messiah."
You can skip everything by Brian Herbert and Kevin J Anderson.
You can skip everything by Brian Herbert and Kevin J Anderson.
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After reading entire original series (Dune through Chapterhouse), I eventually read Butlerian Jihad, Hunters of Dune, and Sandworms of Dune. Taken together I felt they provided sufficient context and closure for questions posed in the original series. And notably, although they are written by Brian Herbert and Kevin Anderson, the last two in particular are based on notes of Frank Herbert’s for a seventh book, discovered in a safety-deposit box[1].
[1] https://web.archive.org/web/20070703213605/http://www.digita...
[1] https://web.archive.org/web/20070703213605/http://www.digita...
Another vote for God Emperor. For me, it was a bit overwhelming on first read, but I love that I can keep going back to it. The ones I reread the most (and probably consider the most mind-expanding) are Dune, God Emperor, Heretics, and Chapterhouse.
Let me also throw in a recommendation to check out his other books/series, if you enjoy his style of writing (personally he's my favorite). He's remarkably good at that "powerful mental images in very few words" quality that e.g. the first Dune book in particular absolutely nails (partly because it's the first, so everything is new).
Definitely! As thrilling as the first novel is, when I think of the Dune universe it's content from the sequels that first springs to mind. Great balance of speculative fiction, philosophy, character development and action.
Personally speaking? I don't think so. I liked the first one but the rest felt like a cashing-in attempt. But that seems to be the case with everything these days.
My business partner read it three time, the entire collection. I guess it is a good clue
Earlier this year I decided to catch up with sci-fi classics and Dune was by far one of the best books I've read in the genre. The construction of the world was solid and I had a lot of fun reading through it. Didn't manage to read the other books though - not a big fan of spin offs, but I know many people who liked them.
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Currently reading the book, and the second paragraph already had some spoilers so be aware if you are planning on reading it and haven't yet!
I've read Dune itself at least a dozen times, and the series as a whole three or four times, so maybe I'm just "Dune-blind", but I've gone over the second paragraph three times now and I can't see a spoiler. I think the synopsis on Amazon has more in the way of spoilers, tbh.
Even the first sentence of the paragraph is a spoiler. That's part of all the big reveals at the end of Book 1 (the mini-book inside Dune)
It's about what Space Guild uses melange for.
Is it even a spoiler? I read the books a few years ago, but I think it wasn't exactly treated as a secret or something that would spoil your enjoyment of the story if you know about it beforehand.
Now that the GP pointed it out, I think it is a bit of a spoiler, but I can't really say why without more spoilers. That said, I agree, it probably won't affect a reading much, if at all.
It isn't a spoiler at all. I begun to notice that this new generation is getting overly sensitive about "spoilers" to the point you can't discuss any element of some work of art without being accused of spoiling something.
It isn't a spoiler that melange is used to make interstellar travel possible just like it isn't a spoiler that Ned Stark is married to Caytlin Stark.
It isn't a spoiler that melange is used to make interstellar travel possible just like it isn't a spoiler that Ned Stark is married to Caytlin Stark.
Well, the guild was apparently rather secretive. At the very beginning Paul, upon entering the heighliner says he might be lucky to see a guildsman... To which the Duke (or Yueh? Some other caregiver?) responds with panicked hushing.
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For me a part of the brilliance of Dune is that Herbert does not commit this sin. He maintains the momentum with only few and relevant digressions. I read the book again after three decades and was amazed that the depth I remembered came from a sparseness of words. I had spun off mere suggestions in the text into baroque textures in my head.
It reminds me of the cartoons of James Thurber, who could evoke more with the curve of a line than most artists can with any number.
I think this is part of what makes Dune so hard to adapt to film. There is less elaborate description to go by compared to Herbert's more verbose colleagues from Victor Hugo to George R.R. Martin. The imagination of each reader has more room to diverge.