The Hot Girl Effect and Networking(sirdg.com)
sirdg.com
The Hot Girl Effect and Networking
http://sirdg.com/2010/12/the-hot-girl-effect-and-networking/
21 comments
> people evaluate their actual value and see that it probably is not enough to make it worth their while approaching this person.
Cost: Awkwardness, potential for embarrassing rejection.
Benefit: Possible relationship, either short-term or long-term, with the subject of your admiration.
So in my mind, if you can get over the fear of rejection, there's no reason not to at least try. Coffee with a CEO is better than nothing, and may potentially be useful down the road. (Can I have a job? Remember when we had coffee that one time?) Likewise, a date with a beautiful model, even one, is better than eating ramen alone. Well, usually. :)
Also, while I agree with what you said about having "true value to offer", there are many types of value. When developing a relationship with someone like a CEO, you may not be able to offer them direct monetary value, but you might be able to give technical insight, an outsider's point of view or a perspective from a different industry, or even just a like-minded person to talk about basketball with.
My advice is to look hard for the value you can offer. Knowledge that you may take for granted is often quite valuable to others, or at least interesting enough for them to keep you around and ask your opinion.
Cost: Awkwardness, potential for embarrassing rejection.
Benefit: Possible relationship, either short-term or long-term, with the subject of your admiration.
So in my mind, if you can get over the fear of rejection, there's no reason not to at least try. Coffee with a CEO is better than nothing, and may potentially be useful down the road. (Can I have a job? Remember when we had coffee that one time?) Likewise, a date with a beautiful model, even one, is better than eating ramen alone. Well, usually. :)
Also, while I agree with what you said about having "true value to offer", there are many types of value. When developing a relationship with someone like a CEO, you may not be able to offer them direct monetary value, but you might be able to give technical insight, an outsider's point of view or a perspective from a different industry, or even just a like-minded person to talk about basketball with.
My advice is to look hard for the value you can offer. Knowledge that you may take for granted is often quite valuable to others, or at least interesting enough for them to keep you around and ask your opinion.
Great point about value.
A related point: if you know someone big/important is going to be at the event you're attending and you want to meet this person for whatever reason, it's well worth researching him/her beforehand so you can ask an intelligent question that shows you've done some homework and are not just out for yourself.
Be interesting, be memorable, do not be desperate (never attractive). And don't wear out your welcome, especially if you know other people are hovering (so they can make their own move on cool person) or if cool person clearly wants to duck out/away.
This chance to prepare, btw, is a key difference between meeting a big shot and hitting on a hot woman you happen to see at a bar.
A related point: if you know someone big/important is going to be at the event you're attending and you want to meet this person for whatever reason, it's well worth researching him/her beforehand so you can ask an intelligent question that shows you've done some homework and are not just out for yourself.
Be interesting, be memorable, do not be desperate (never attractive). And don't wear out your welcome, especially if you know other people are hovering (so they can make their own move on cool person) or if cool person clearly wants to duck out/away.
This chance to prepare, btw, is a key difference between meeting a big shot and hitting on a hot woman you happen to see at a bar.
There is also cost of your time for the coffee and whatever may follow, as well as material costs (potentially high when dealing with upper-echelon), so it is not an outright win situation.
No risk no glory!
Only the ones that are willing to fail repeatedly are the ones who deserve to win. What I'm trying to imply here that taking risks while maximizing your odds is also a skill.
A super hot woman (or GS executive) both appreciate confidence and candor. They don't want to be treated as "different" - to return to that hot woman - she doesn't want to be treated as special. Looking into mirror is enough to get her depressed. She wants to feel ordinary, to be appreciated for being a woman or at least not a freak.
Only the ones that are willing to fail repeatedly are the ones who deserve to win. What I'm trying to imply here that taking risks while maximizing your odds is also a skill.
A super hot woman (or GS executive) both appreciate confidence and candor. They don't want to be treated as "different" - to return to that hot woman - she doesn't want to be treated as special. Looking into mirror is enough to get her depressed. She wants to feel ordinary, to be appreciated for being a woman or at least not a freak.
I know a founder of one of the top silicone valley start-ups.
He's a great guy and when I happen to see him it's fine to chat. He's very busy so I don't see him very often.
This relationship gets me zero, zilch, practical benefits.
It's fluke that I know him. Would I expend a lot of effort to get ten relationships with similarly well-connected people? No, because it would rather insincere and would get me ten times as much practical benefits (ten time zeros). The people who I happen to meet and are cool people, I'll be friends with. The stunningly beautiful ballerinas I've chatted with are nice also but not the best material for personal relationships...
In other words, the glory of knowing COOs and dating models also over-rated. And if the models are feeling truly neglected, I'm sure they won't have a problem introducing themselves to cute guys at bars if they want "glory".
This relationship gets me zero, zilch, practical benefits.
It's fluke that I know him. Would I expend a lot of effort to get ten relationships with similarly well-connected people? No, because it would rather insincere and would get me ten times as much practical benefits (ten time zeros). The people who I happen to meet and are cool people, I'll be friends with. The stunningly beautiful ballerinas I've chatted with are nice also but not the best material for personal relationships...
In other words, the glory of knowing COOs and dating models also over-rated. And if the models are feeling truly neglected, I'm sure they won't have a problem introducing themselves to cute guys at bars if they want "glory".
Silicone valley? Is that where all the hot models hang out?
More seriously, you might not have realized any huge benefits from this relationship with your founder friend, but that doesn't mean there aren't some significant potential benefits to your relationship.
Say you just happened to have a wonderful new product that your friend's company could use. A short chat with your founder friend about this product could be worth quite a lot.
Likewise, if you needed or wanted some advice from him, the advice of a founder could be worth a lot, as could any introductions to his peers that he might be willing to make.
Just think about it a bit, and I'm sure you could come up with dozens of other potential benefits.
Of course, such a relationship shouldn't be one-sided. There's a great book called "One Phone Call Away" by Jeffrey Meshel, who's main point is that the best way to network is to help people without expecting anything in return. Highly recommended.
More seriously, you might not have realized any huge benefits from this relationship with your founder friend, but that doesn't mean there aren't some significant potential benefits to your relationship.
Say you just happened to have a wonderful new product that your friend's company could use. A short chat with your founder friend about this product could be worth quite a lot.
Likewise, if you needed or wanted some advice from him, the advice of a founder could be worth a lot, as could any introductions to his peers that he might be willing to make.
Just think about it a bit, and I'm sure you could come up with dozens of other potential benefits.
Of course, such a relationship shouldn't be one-sided. There's a great book called "One Phone Call Away" by Jeffrey Meshel, who's main point is that the best way to network is to help people without expecting anything in return. Highly recommended.
Are you of any benefit to your founder friend? My personal strategy is that I constantly work on maximizing myself as benefit to others. This gives me an edge - where I can actually pick such partners that return appropriate value. Increasing demand is actually really simple - just offer better (sought after) goods.
As far as the poor pretty girl that needs to hit on guys. Unfortunately it doesn't work this way. Its got a lot to do with guy's and girl's insecurities.
1. Hot woman hitting on a guy - The natural reaction of the said guy is "It's a trap!". 2. Having to hit on guys is awful for this woman - since less pretty girls don't need to do it. Which starts spinning up in a persons mind that you must be some sort of freak since a) mend don't hit on you and b) when you try to hit on men they run away ("It's a trap!").
Oh and the glory thing is just a parable for success.
As far as the poor pretty girl that needs to hit on guys. Unfortunately it doesn't work this way. Its got a lot to do with guy's and girl's insecurities.
1. Hot woman hitting on a guy - The natural reaction of the said guy is "It's a trap!". 2. Having to hit on guys is awful for this woman - since less pretty girls don't need to do it. Which starts spinning up in a persons mind that you must be some sort of freak since a) mend don't hit on you and b) when you try to hit on men they run away ("It's a trap!").
Oh and the glory thing is just a parable for success.
Hmm,
Would you like to have coffee some time next week?
I'm in the SF Bay area and my email is on my profile (for now).
Would Tuesday or Friday work best for you?
Would you like to have coffee some time next week?
I'm in the SF Bay area and my email is on my profile (for now).
Would Tuesday or Friday work best for you?
[deleted]
We all make choices - maybe I wouldn't want to invest much of my precious time in having Coffee with the CEO of Goldman Sachs. Let's say I don't work in finance and have no interest in it.
As for hot women, it depends on what you want. For a real life example, let's say I am married and have no intentions of cheating on my wife. So I will certainly chat with a hot woman, maybe even flirt with her, but I'll certainly not put a lot of effort into pursuing her as I have no interest in sexual relations with her.
As for hot women, it depends on what you want. For a real life example, let's say I am married and have no intentions of cheating on my wife. So I will certainly chat with a hot woman, maybe even flirt with her, but I'll certainly not put a lot of effort into pursuing her as I have no interest in sexual relations with her.
> the chance of us having a nice chat with the CEO of
> Goldman is fair, but the chance of him maintaining
> contact with us and being a friend or mentor is pretty
> low
> You don't have the money to hang with him, you don't
> have the opportunities to share with him and so on.
Six months later, I'm into training, and interviewing at another firm. The place I'm interviewing at has several people who are nuts about triathlon.
The job's great, but that aside, so is the new interest. I did Olympic distance this year, signed up for half ironman in 2011. I still swap emails with the guy.
Some people with lots of money don't care about it. If they do, they'll filter you and save you the hassle. People who are capable of helping you are the most likely to be interested in helping you. You're their canvas.
It can work. But there is a cost - you may annoy the guy. See, if you fail, then the guy will remember you negatively. If you succeed, but cannot offer value, you lose also. I believe that's what people try to avoid.
Thanks. OK - yeah you did say "unless you have true value to offer".
Still, you might be psyching yourself out. In your original post you wrote 'hot top model' whereas the original article wrote 'hot girl'. Not the same thing.
Still, you might be psyching yourself out. In your original post you wrote 'hot top model' whereas the original article wrote 'hot girl'. Not the same thing.
I've never asked someone out on a date expecting to get married. Things go where they go. Having it all planned out before you even talk to her seems, well... silly.
Enjoy the moment. Talk to the hot girl or boy; introduce yourself to the celebrity or CEO, or VC or whatever floats your boat. But don't talk yourself out of it because of what you imagine could happen.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
Enjoy the moment. Talk to the hot girl or boy; introduce yourself to the celebrity or CEO, or VC or whatever floats your boat. But don't talk yourself out of it because of what you imagine could happen.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
I think game theory applies here, similar to the situation played in Beautiful Mind http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5jrNoNNtrE and conciously or not, many choose not to get involved, fearing too much competition and bigger chances of loss/rejection.
Same as in business - the bigger the jackpot, less chance of hitting it. Picking up hot girls and doing risky business need a lot of self-esteem. Difference is, in business you often have a lot to lose, while being rejected by a girl doesn't really hurt much.
Same as in business - the bigger the jackpot, less chance of hitting it. Picking up hot girls and doing risky business need a lot of self-esteem. Difference is, in business you often have a lot to lose, while being rejected by a girl doesn't really hurt much.
Generally speaking, though, people are /horrible/ at evaluating their own value. Aside from extremes of ego (in either direction) which by itself could account for massive error bars, you have many other problems. Especially in the dating arena, and to a lesser extent in the professional context, even if you do know your attributes, it's often difficult to know what the other party values.
The long-term vs short-term argument makes sense, I agree on that. If you have nothing to offer in the long-term, then it's probably not going to last. If you just want to ask the hot girl out of your league on a date to say that you did, then yeah, it's probably not going to go very far.
I think the people who actually succeed in going out of their league, or the ones who do have that long term relationship with the CEO, are the ones who have the confidence that they do have some value to offer. And by definition, these people are more likely to take the risk - because there's something legitimate backing it up. Not saying that every confident person who approaches the GS CFO will develop a long term relationship. But the ones who actually attempt are probably going to be the same people who have the confidence in themselves to build a long term relationship - and believe they can offer some real value.
I think the people who actually succeed in going out of their league, or the ones who do have that long term relationship with the CEO, are the ones who have the confidence that they do have some value to offer. And by definition, these people are more likely to take the risk - because there's something legitimate backing it up. Not saying that every confident person who approaches the GS CFO will develop a long term relationship. But the ones who actually attempt are probably going to be the same people who have the confidence in themselves to build a long term relationship - and believe they can offer some real value.
Excellent advice, keep doubting yourself so that people like myself with confidence have an easier time succeeding because people like yourself don't even try, let alone fail, let alone succeed.
I'd take a date with a model or a coffee with a CEO any day of the week. I don't care if the long term outlook is zero, it's worth it just for the experience.
I'd take a date with a model or a coffee with a CEO any day of the week. I don't care if the long term outlook is zero, it's worth it just for the experience.
If the article is true, the people like you are upping the chances of people who heed its advice. So, thanks?
[deleted]
I can see your point but I like to think that "even" CFOs of Goldman Sachs are just people - behind every oh so successful CxO is just a human being with often a horrible, horrible personal life due to all the work and responsibilities and politics and bullshit and all the ass-kissing people they have to face each and every day...
So I think if you honestly approach someone as a human being, who knows where it could lead.
If you approach them playing "just a human being" when actually you want to talk business and money, then you better be prepared for the other person to switch to "business mode" as well and yes, then they WILL evaluate you. Because after all then it was just all about business to begin with, wasnt it?
So I think if you honestly approach someone as a human being, who knows where it could lead.
If you approach them playing "just a human being" when actually you want to talk business and money, then you better be prepared for the other person to switch to "business mode" as well and yes, then they WILL evaluate you. Because after all then it was just all about business to begin with, wasnt it?
It really shouldn't matter to you what long term value you have to offer her. Being able to take a picture with her and put it on your Facebook albums is worth quite a bit imo.
There's no legitimate excuse not to try to associate with higher value people, you can only go up.
There's no legitimate excuse not to try to associate with higher value people, you can only go up.
"Actually, I’ve found that the more successful and accomplished people are, typically, it seems like the more humble and friendly they are. Additionally, they tend to appreciate the value of networking and make an effort to meet new people."
Nope! This is non-evidence. Successful people who are arrogant and antisocial are by nature less likely to run into you, so you should expect your observed pool of people-you-know to be heavily skewed towards the friendliest people.
A similar phenomenon occurs in social network rankings: For any given person with a reasonable number of Facebook friends, their friends will be, on average, more popular than the original person (popularity defined by number of friends). Almost everyone is one of the least popular people in their own social network.
Nope! This is non-evidence. Successful people who are arrogant and antisocial are by nature less likely to run into you, so you should expect your observed pool of people-you-know to be heavily skewed towards the friendliest people.
A similar phenomenon occurs in social network rankings: For any given person with a reasonable number of Facebook friends, their friends will be, on average, more popular than the original person (popularity defined by number of friends). Almost everyone is one of the least popular people in their own social network.
>A similar phenomenon occurs in social network rankings: For any given person with a reasonable number of Facebook friends, their friends will be, on average, more popular than the original person (popularity defined by number of friends). Almost everyone is one of the least popular people in their own social network.
Is there a name for this phenomenon? Or supplemental reading material?
Is there a name for this phenomenon? Or supplemental reading material?
If we don't consider what made a person "popular", ie have many friends, this "phenomenon" just makes statistical sense to me. You have a greater chance of being in a pool of friends that is large, while your pool of Facebook friends is smaller, so out of that smaller pool you have less of a chance of one of them being less popular than you. It is already unlikely that unpopular people are one of your Facebook friends because they themselves have so few friends.
I have no mathematical proof; this is merely what I intuit.
I have no mathematical proof; this is merely what I intuit.
>>Once a girl passes a certain degree of hotness, the amount of guys hitting on her drops dramatically.
When a girl starts to become a hot babe then tons of guys hit on her -- its annoying and time consuming to ward off losers so she develops a "bitch shield". This defense mechanism tells guys that she is too good for them and not to bother, from this point on only the cocky guys approach who are not intimidated by the "bitch shield" (these guys look like assholes to "nice guys") - then the "nice guys" whine about how they can't get any girls. As lowlife as the PUA guides are, I still found them informative.
When a girl starts to become a hot babe then tons of guys hit on her -- its annoying and time consuming to ward off losers so she develops a "bitch shield". This defense mechanism tells guys that she is too good for them and not to bother, from this point on only the cocky guys approach who are not intimidated by the "bitch shield" (these guys look like assholes to "nice guys") - then the "nice guys" whine about how they can't get any girls. As lowlife as the PUA guides are, I still found them informative.
I wonder how many rejections a man would have to face to develop a "cockiness shield", to continue pursuing and hitting on women no matter how rejected he becomes. After all, it's a small effort for a potentially good returns.
With practice he could certainly toughen up with regard to that but I think that by doing so he would inevitably have shut out part of his heart. Getting rejected by a woman is hard for a man. H-a-r-d. It might very well be that once he successfully hits on a woman he finds interesting, he might have a hard time softening down to something resembling an emotional human being capable of falling into love and a loving relationship.
With practice he could certainly toughen up with regard to that but I think that by doing so he would inevitably have shut out part of his heart. Getting rejected by a woman is hard for a man. H-a-r-d. It might very well be that once he successfully hits on a woman he finds interesting, he might have a hard time softening down to something resembling an emotional human being capable of falling into love and a loving relationship.
I had a landlord once who wasn't very social, and as a result wasn't very good with women (but he was a specialized mechanic and made a ton of money). Was talking to him one day, and he said that his therapist had given him an assignment to get out of his shell.
His assignment was to go to a bar (or any sort of similar place) and get rejected by ten women. That is, between that session and his next (the span of a week I believe), his goal was to get shot down by ten women in a social situation. Not necessarily crash and burn, but some kind of rejection.
After a while, you realize rejection isn't really that bad - it's the fear of rejection that's the big problem. Once you can get over that, you're going to be doing a lot better.
His assignment was to go to a bar (or any sort of similar place) and get rejected by ten women. That is, between that session and his next (the span of a week I believe), his goal was to get shot down by ten women in a social situation. Not necessarily crash and burn, but some kind of rejection.
After a while, you realize rejection isn't really that bad - it's the fear of rejection that's the big problem. Once you can get over that, you're going to be doing a lot better.
Since you didn't phrase this in terms of "Rejection Therapy" I have to assume it didn't pop up on your radar. It was pretty popular on here a couple of weeks ago, and Jason Shen even did a series about trying it out.
How long ago was this? The therapist was probably ahead of his time!
How long ago was this? The therapist was probably ahead of his time!
Actually getting rejected by women and getting blown out of "sets" on purpose is a well known PUA practice to handle fear of rejection. I remember reading about it 4 years ago or so.
This was around 2001 or so, I think. Never really thought about it until today, so I've never looked it up. Always seemed like a good idea though.
> his goal was to get shot down by ten women in a social situation. Not necessarily crash and burn, but some kind of rejection.
the beauty of that is that if you fail at that goal, it means you didn't get rejected!
the beauty of that is that if you fail at that goal, it means you didn't get rejected!
I would also add that after you develop your "cockiness shield" - though a sword would be a better analogy - it needs to be maintained, kept sharp. For some reason this particular skill fades very quickly (in months) if you stop exercising it, so it's not like swimming or riding a bike.
There's another bit of bitter irony about this situation. After you become "hard" enough to attract a girl who was previously out of your league, it's not in your best interest to grow "soft" again. On the contrary, it makes the girl likely to leave you, because she didn't sign up for your weaknesses when she entered the relationship :-) Yeah, some girls will be okay with that, but in my experience they are rare.
There's another bit of bitter irony about this situation. After you become "hard" enough to attract a girl who was previously out of your league, it's not in your best interest to grow "soft" again. On the contrary, it makes the girl likely to leave you, because she didn't sign up for your weaknesses when she entered the relationship :-) Yeah, some girls will be okay with that, but in my experience they are rare.
On the other hand, going to an extreme to appear attractive can backfire. You could be stuck with your act for as long as you want to stay with that girl. Do you really want to be with a girl, no matter how attractive, who won't like the man you want to be?
Here's a much better analysis of this phenomenon: http://plus.maths.org/issue51/features/rey/index.html, even deriving a mathematical model.
I think the same kind of thing holds true for attractive ideas as well: For ideas with killer potential, people tend to say "Oh, somebody surely must have implemented it, is looking into it", etc.) and not to push on. Until someone either ignorant of the idealand layout or too dogged to care takes it on and becomes successful. The history of the Valley has many examples of this pattern.
I think the same kind of thing holds true for attractive ideas as well: For ideas with killer potential, people tend to say "Oh, somebody surely must have implemented it, is looking into it", etc.) and not to push on. Until someone either ignorant of the idealand layout or too dogged to care takes it on and becomes successful. The history of the Valley has many examples of this pattern.
Can you list some of the examples? I actually personally find that instinct to be true in almost all cases, but would be happy to be wrong about it.
I think the examples fall into two categories:
* There's an obviously good idea, people have tried it and "proved" that it cannot be done. Then somebody ignorant of this fact goes ahead and does it anyway. A famous example of this is Spencer Silver of 3M inventing the adhesive for the Post-It notes. He is quoted to say "If I had thought about it, I wouldn't have done the experiment. The literature was full of examples that said you can't do this."
* There's a good idea, others have implemented it with modest success. Then somebody comes along and blows it out of the water. Best example I can think of for this is the iPod. MP3 players were common before Apple, so it wasn't a new idea. Yet, they re-invented it in so many ways. Another example is, of course, Google, going against established search portals when they came about.
* There's an obviously good idea, people have tried it and "proved" that it cannot be done. Then somebody ignorant of this fact goes ahead and does it anyway. A famous example of this is Spencer Silver of 3M inventing the adhesive for the Post-It notes. He is quoted to say "If I had thought about it, I wouldn't have done the experiment. The literature was full of examples that said you can't do this."
* There's a good idea, others have implemented it with modest success. Then somebody comes along and blows it out of the water. Best example I can think of for this is the iPod. MP3 players were common before Apple, so it wasn't a new idea. Yet, they re-invented it in so many ways. Another example is, of course, Google, going against established search portals when they came about.
Personal experience - The author, Stephen Baxter, at a signing at the old Andromeda SF bookshop in Birmingham, UK, looked pretty sad because, despite being surrounded by fans, nobody actually wanted to approach him.
The legendary Kenny "R2D2" Baker at a convention I attended looked dreadfully alone; nobody even wanted to go up and ask for his autograph.
At the same convention there was a massive guy dressed like a Klingon warrior. He actually looked a little uncertain until I came up and regaled him with a couple of Klingon words. Then we got into some curse warfare and he was in his element. Yes, I speak Klingon as well.
I can cite many such examples, usually of some TV or movie celeb attending a convention and looking so bored, sitting there on his own. Dirk Benedict. Erik Menyuk. Michael Dorn. Many others.
The legendary Kenny "R2D2" Baker at a convention I attended looked dreadfully alone; nobody even wanted to go up and ask for his autograph.
At the same convention there was a massive guy dressed like a Klingon warrior. He actually looked a little uncertain until I came up and regaled him with a couple of Klingon words. Then we got into some curse warfare and he was in his element. Yes, I speak Klingon as well.
I can cite many such examples, usually of some TV or movie celeb attending a convention and looking so bored, sitting there on his own. Dirk Benedict. Erik Menyuk. Michael Dorn. Many others.
I once worked with a Teamster who didn't give a damn who you were (or how important for that matter). He just spoke his mind. Working on films, he would regularly have lunch with producers, actors, studio heads, you name it. He'd plop down at a table wherever & just eat his lunch & chat with whoever was there. Result? He could walk up to the "untouchables" on most shows & ask about their kids, chat about a vacation, even occasionally talk about politics. He even helped defuse a disgruntled actor one day by simply asking, "hey, what the hell's the matter?" and letting him vent (much to the dismay of the cowering producers).
On a personal note, I befriended a power broker several years ago while discussing art. We had a lot to talk about. Now years later we still talk & email fairly regularly & grab lunch when in the same town.
Stop thinking of people as who they are or what they represent, just treat them like normal folks & you'll be surprised who you might befriend.
On a personal note, I befriended a power broker several years ago while discussing art. We had a lot to talk about. Now years later we still talk & email fairly regularly & grab lunch when in the same town.
Stop thinking of people as who they are or what they represent, just treat them like normal folks & you'll be surprised who you might befriend.
Great post. I've been wanting to say something like that, but got distracted.
There is a truth, and two fallacies in the article. The truth is that the hot girl effect exists. Fallacies: #1 - It is automatically desirable to talk to the hot girl and the CEO, more so than to other people. It may be, it may not be, who knows. This is an implicit assumption in the article. #2 - That you therefore have to make an effort to talk to these people.
All three really are about the Ego and its trying to justify its existence by making itself important. Talking to hot girl / CEO - Ego gratification. Getting shot down - blow to the Ego. Fear of getting shot down - fear of the Ego losing its importance. If you looked at your own Ego as an entity all of its own, it is literally the fear of death.
Now with the hot girl situation you have two possible outcomes: Talk to hot girl; or avoid it. Both means you lose and both mean the ego wins. In talking to her, you "made" it and can feel proud; in avoiding, you've avoided being shot down and also "made" it. It's a lose-lose situation.
The best reaction that I know is to observe the ego forces within yourself - independent of your action.
Any time you feel superior, or inferior, to any other person, it's just the Ego talking. You can't stop this but you can observe it, realize it is so, and thereby overcome it. Personally when I have these moments I then just relax within myself and do what I like. I am happier and I am also meeting more interesting people.
"Stop thinking of people as who they are or what they represent" - exactly.
There is a truth, and two fallacies in the article. The truth is that the hot girl effect exists. Fallacies: #1 - It is automatically desirable to talk to the hot girl and the CEO, more so than to other people. It may be, it may not be, who knows. This is an implicit assumption in the article. #2 - That you therefore have to make an effort to talk to these people.
All three really are about the Ego and its trying to justify its existence by making itself important. Talking to hot girl / CEO - Ego gratification. Getting shot down - blow to the Ego. Fear of getting shot down - fear of the Ego losing its importance. If you looked at your own Ego as an entity all of its own, it is literally the fear of death.
Now with the hot girl situation you have two possible outcomes: Talk to hot girl; or avoid it. Both means you lose and both mean the ego wins. In talking to her, you "made" it and can feel proud; in avoiding, you've avoided being shot down and also "made" it. It's a lose-lose situation.
The best reaction that I know is to observe the ego forces within yourself - independent of your action.
Any time you feel superior, or inferior, to any other person, it's just the Ego talking. You can't stop this but you can observe it, realize it is so, and thereby overcome it. Personally when I have these moments I then just relax within myself and do what I like. I am happier and I am also meeting more interesting people.
"Stop thinking of people as who they are or what they represent" - exactly.
I'm going to go ahead and say that "the hot girl effect" is not true, at least for women. The hotter you are the more you'll get hit on, guaranteed.
Which leaves the theory behind this interaction up for grabs :)
Which leaves the theory behind this interaction up for grabs :)
There are a lot of variables in play, and I really have no idea if this holds up for any particular woman or not. But as a guy, who spends a lot of time talking to other guys about approaching / meeting / dating women, I can definitely say that - in my experience - there is absolutely an "intimidation" effect where men will avoid the hotter women because they assume that:
A. "she's out of my league and wouldn't be interested."
B. "she is that hot, she probably gets hit on all the time and is therefore probably snooty / bitchy towards strange guys."
C. "she can have any guy she wants, so surely she's dating some bigshot executive with a rolls-royce and a private jet... no point in little ole me going over and talking to her."
D. "etc."
Not saying that all guys do this, or that all guys do it in all situations, but there is something plausible about this.
A. "she's out of my league and wouldn't be interested."
B. "she is that hot, she probably gets hit on all the time and is therefore probably snooty / bitchy towards strange guys."
C. "she can have any guy she wants, so surely she's dating some bigshot executive with a rolls-royce and a private jet... no point in little ole me going over and talking to her."
D. "etc."
Not saying that all guys do this, or that all guys do it in all situations, but there is something plausible about this.
[From my single days]
I'd generally want to get laid. So women that show absolutely no interest are great - no time wasted. Women that want to f... you right there in the bathroom are also great, but rare.
Women that are nice and hot are great. But women that just string you along for whatever reason, they're your enemy - you waste all that time, and you get nothing for it. Had many of those experiences as it's sometimes very hard to tell which is which. US women in my not-statistically-significant experience were the worst. Europeans, South Americans, Asians, all more real and less likely to string guys along.
So in hindsight I think the most important skill is to cut losses early. Or as one womanizing friend told me - the skill is not to convince a girl who doesn't want to to sleep with you - that's not gonna happen; the skill is to spot those that are looking for sex tonight.
So in hindsight I think the most important skill is to cut losses early. Or as one womanizing friend told me - the skill is not to convince a girl who doesn't want to to sleep with you - that's not gonna happen; the skill is to spot those that are looking for sex tonight.
The hotter you are the more you'll get hit on, guaranteed.
I think it depends. I've dated girls that I think would be considered 'hot' and have talked to them about this exact subject. Many were not hit on very often or they were only hit on by the kind of guys that they would never date. The I'm god's gift sort of guy (think Jersey Shore TV show ugh).
And no, having some drunk guy yell across the bar he wants to marry them is not getting hit on. Hit on would be a guy coming up and trying to have a real conversation.
From a guys standpoint rejection is hard no matter how confident a guy might be. Even if a guy wants to hit on the hottest girl he finds, he may opt for one less externally hot in order to lessen the chance of rejection. Said guy may not even realize he's making this selection.
I think it depends. I've dated girls that I think would be considered 'hot' and have talked to them about this exact subject. Many were not hit on very often or they were only hit on by the kind of guys that they would never date. The I'm god's gift sort of guy (think Jersey Shore TV show ugh).
And no, having some drunk guy yell across the bar he wants to marry them is not getting hit on. Hit on would be a guy coming up and trying to have a real conversation.
From a guys standpoint rejection is hard no matter how confident a guy might be. Even if a guy wants to hit on the hottest girl he finds, he may opt for one less externally hot in order to lessen the chance of rejection. Said guy may not even realize he's making this selection.
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I'm assuming you're a woman? Do you have any friendships with women you'd consider stunningly attractive?
No I'm not a woman, I've just gotten lucky with the women I've dated. For every guy who is intimidated there are 5 others who due to the anonymity of just walking past her on the street will feel compelled to say something.
That compulsion increases with however hot they are, though it tends to jump dramatically when they are at a certain level of beauty, normally a level where no matter the circumstance they are usually always considered beautiful by anyone around.
That compulsion increases with however hot they are, though it tends to jump dramatically when they are at a certain level of beauty, normally a level where no matter the circumstance they are usually always considered beautiful by anyone around.
From the article: "Once a girl passes a certain degree of hotness, the amount of guys hitting on her drops dramatically."
However, I know of a different version. If (as a guy) you are seen to date a hot girl, then the chances of you dating other hot girls goes up. They want to know what you've got.
I'm guessing this applies to VC as well.
However, I know of a different version. If (as a guy) you are seen to date a hot girl, then the chances of you dating other hot girls goes up. They want to know what you've got.
I'm guessing this applies to VC as well.
Absolutely true. Wait until you get married - suddenly chicks hit on you all the time. It's like... WTF?
Just two days ago, I sit in an outdoors bar, all alone, and order a beer. Now the other rule is that if you're all by yourself, nobody will approach you because you might be weird. Two hot girls sit down on the next table. And every time I look over, one of them gives me the biggest "please come over to talk to me right NOW" smile I have ever seen. As I am waiting for my wife. No regrets of course - I love my wife. But I am wondering: Where WERE you girls when I was single?
Just two days ago, I sit in an outdoors bar, all alone, and order a beer. Now the other rule is that if you're all by yourself, nobody will approach you because you might be weird. Two hot girls sit down on the next table. And every time I look over, one of them gives me the biggest "please come over to talk to me right NOW" smile I have ever seen. As I am waiting for my wife. No regrets of course - I love my wife. But I am wondering: Where WERE you girls when I was single?
I hear guys talk about the marriage effect all the time but I suspect the increased attention they get from women isn't what you think it is.
As a married man, you're now domesticated. Imagine going to the park and seeing a golden retriever. You might pat this dog on the head, or play with him, because you know he's been trained well and sociable. But if you go camping and see a wolf, you'd do well to steer clear.
In a lot of cases, the woman flirts with a married guy b/c exactly BECAUSE she knew you wouldn't react. Same theory for why some women are great friends with gay guys.
As a married man, you're now domesticated. Imagine going to the park and seeing a golden retriever. You might pat this dog on the head, or play with him, because you know he's been trained well and sociable. But if you go camping and see a wolf, you'd do well to steer clear.
In a lot of cases, the woman flirts with a married guy b/c exactly BECAUSE she knew you wouldn't react. Same theory for why some women are great friends with gay guys.
This reflects something I've noticed at some conferences: the keynote speaker is often alone in the bar afterwards, looking bored because no one gets up the nerve to talk to them.
That sometimes happens, but often keynote speakers are left alone because nobody's interested in talking to them. Keynotes speakers are often prominent individuals from outside the narrow field of the conference, and often wildly misjudge what conference attendees will be interested in hearing about.
Apples and oranges. Yes, there is a "hot girl effect", but it really only applies to hot girls. People who are at the top of their fields may be friendly, but they are, by virtue of being at the top of their field, generally very busy people. Sure, they're approachable, but you can't really expect to have more than a small slice of their time unless the ideas you are bringing to the table are of significant interest to them. The CEO or top scientist is inherently busy or they wouldn't be in their position. A hot girl, by contrast, is no more or less likely than anyone else to have a full calendar. Hot girls don't automatically lose their hotness by living a relaxed, unstructured lifestyle.
People like similar people. They have more in common. Relationships between similar status people end up happiest and work out the best, on average.
That doesn't mean people always hit on those of equal attractiveness alone. If you have more money than the girl, then she can have more prettiness. But if she's way ahead on looks, you better be way ahead on money or something or it isn't an equal relationship.
What does this add up to? Simply: the edge of the bell curve is always lonely.
That doesn't mean people always hit on those of equal attractiveness alone. If you have more money than the girl, then she can have more prettiness. But if she's way ahead on looks, you better be way ahead on money or something or it isn't an equal relationship.
What does this add up to? Simply: the edge of the bell curve is always lonely.
I have to disagree with this. I've seen the exact opposite many times, e.g. Dave McClure at the TechHub Xmas party, the poor guy was absolutely mobbed.
I thought this post was going to be about something different altogether, so I wrote it myself:
http://blog.shrewple.com/post/2520650113/the-real-hot-girl-e...
I thought this post was going to be about something different altogether, so I wrote it myself:
http://blog.shrewple.com/post/2520650113/the-real-hot-girl-e...
I believe I first encountered the description of this phenomenon in one of Leil Lowndes' books, "How To Talk To Anyone" IIRC.
And I encountered the phenomenon IRL a good few years back at a convention, where I had a really nice conversation with an actress who played a major role in a prominent SF series. Apparently, I was one of a few people who'd even just stopped to ask her how she was enjoying the show: everyone else was either staff, stewards or fanbois who only wanted her autograph, photo or both.
I got to sit with her and her retinue later that night in the hotel restaurant: a dinner date I'll never forget.
The Hot Girl effect is pretty real. And if you can get past that barrier of your own fears to approach the unapproachable, yet retain your humility as you do so, the rewards can often be awesome and memorable.
And I encountered the phenomenon IRL a good few years back at a convention, where I had a really nice conversation with an actress who played a major role in a prominent SF series. Apparently, I was one of a few people who'd even just stopped to ask her how she was enjoying the show: everyone else was either staff, stewards or fanbois who only wanted her autograph, photo or both.
I got to sit with her and her retinue later that night in the hotel restaurant: a dinner date I'll never forget.
The Hot Girl effect is pretty real. And if you can get past that barrier of your own fears to approach the unapproachable, yet retain your humility as you do so, the rewards can often be awesome and memorable.
Is this for real? Is there any science to support the anecdotal experience of "the hot girl effect"?
OKCupid does interesting analyses of their user data. Here's a post looking at the impact of attractiveness on messaging rates (http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/your-looks-and-online-dati...). Looks like, at least for their users, the "hot girl effect" is not real; the more attractive the girl, the lower the probability of a successful response.
The problem with OKCupid rejection is that rejection is not real.
You can easily spam out messages to all the hot girls and "rejection" is really a non-reply. Meaning that "rejection" is invisible.
In real life rejection means a "walk of shame" away from the girl, probably while your friends are watching, probably while they're laughing at you. OkCupid incorporates none of that.
You can easily spam out messages to all the hot girls and "rejection" is really a non-reply. Meaning that "rejection" is invisible.
In real life rejection means a "walk of shame" away from the girl, probably while your friends are watching, probably while they're laughing at you. OkCupid incorporates none of that.
"the more attractive the girl, the lower the probability of a successful response."
If a really hot girl sends me a message on okcupid, I will probably ignore it. Why? Because 9/10 it's a spammer.
If a really hot girl sends me a message on okcupid, I will probably ignore it. Why? Because 9/10 it's a spammer.
Good data, but online dating may be different due to the lower perceived cost of approaches and rejection.
Great point...
While the graph does generally bare you out, one can see a few small turns on the OKcupid graph that might be a ghost of the "hot girl effect" - the most attractive female senders get more responses from guy of average appearance than from guys considered least the attractive...
You could also argue that when someone's already on OkCupid, they're already motivated to seek out someone and don't necessarily feel intimidated concerning who. This might be different than real life. But it might not be...
While the graph does generally bare you out, one can see a few small turns on the OKcupid graph that might be a ghost of the "hot girl effect" - the most attractive female senders get more responses from guy of average appearance than from guys considered least the attractive...
You could also argue that when someone's already on OkCupid, they're already motivated to seek out someone and don't necessarily feel intimidated concerning who. This might be different than real life. But it might not be...
In my experience from a particular music scene, people with celebrity-level status who want to be treated like real people tend to be the people well worth talking to. Those who want to be treated like celebrities are generally less worthwhile to talk to.
Basically, you may not want to talk to anyone who's so shallow that fame is a really big deal to them.
Basically, you may not want to talk to anyone who's so shallow that fame is a really big deal to them.
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In my opinion the real problem is this creepy glorification of people for their looks or social status.
Guys who are obsessed with dating hot girls are really just obsessed with how others perceive them, which makes them lame to be around. Same with social climbers.
Guys who are obsessed with dating hot girls are really just obsessed with how others perceive them, which makes them lame to be around. Same with social climbers.
A corollary to this that I've heard from the sales end, is that one actually doesn't want to "pump buying temperature" to maximum.
The argument I've heard is that it's more effective to sell someone on you or your product being appealing yet practical rather than convincing them that you or your product are the hottest thing on the planet (but there's always the "expensive decoy product" mentioned in the link yesterday).
This is generalization too, of course, but it seems reasonable.
The argument I've heard is that it's more effective to sell someone on you or your product being appealing yet practical rather than convincing them that you or your product are the hottest thing on the planet (but there's always the "expensive decoy product" mentioned in the link yesterday).
This is generalization too, of course, but it seems reasonable.
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It seems like it would be a confounding factor if said hot girl had a reputation as evil incarnate, as does Goldman-Sachs.
Reminder: if you try to become friends with someone for any other reason besides you're a friendly person and like meeting people? They're going to figure you out eventually.
So instead of "targeting" people, I'd just hang out at the right places and get to know folks in general.
So instead of "targeting" people, I'd just hang out at the right places and get to know folks in general.
Hot girls get hit on and proposed to several times a day by eager men. That translates to about 100 times a month and 1200 times a yar. If you don't believe me go ask one. Especially Programmer girls.
In the same way, the chance of us having a nice chat with the CEO of Goldman is fair, but the chance of him maintaining contact with us and being a friend or mentor is pretty low. You don't have the money to hang with him, you don't have the opportunities to share with him and so on.
So you can get a date with the top model if you're brave. You can get a coffee with the CEO if you're brave. But I doubt that anything long term will develop, unless you have true value to offer.
And people evaluate their actual value and see that it probably is not enough to make it worth their while approaching this person.
An example that I'm sure many here can identify with: How many of you have emailed Paul Graham asking him for feedback on your app or whatever? Some brave ones likely have, but how many realistically expect a relationship to develop out of that?