What it's like to be the SO of a start-up founder.(redgirlsays.com)
redgirlsays.com
What it's like to be the SO of a start-up founder.
http://redgirlsays.com/blog/2010/12/what-its-like-to-be-the-so-of-a-start-up-founder/
40 comments
This may be true for a subscription web app, maybe there is a bug and the customers can deal with not having a particular feature working correctly until Monday, you have a relationship with them and this is a mare annoyance.
Thinking in terms of an ecommerce or affiliate site, you have no relationship with those visiting your page. They're likely to close the browser or it the back button for the most inane reasons, you also have large adwords spend driving them to your site. Especially around Christmas time any issues could be a large potential revenue loss so yes I certainly would be dropping everything to fix any issues that arise.
Thinking in terms of an ecommerce or affiliate site, you have no relationship with those visiting your page. They're likely to close the browser or it the back button for the most inane reasons, you also have large adwords spend driving them to your site. Especially around Christmas time any issues could be a large potential revenue loss so yes I certainly would be dropping everything to fix any issues that arise.
Which is interesting because my business falls much more into the latter category.
Some of us actually enjoy creating and producing. It seems that you are suggesting an irreconcilable dichotomy between work and enjoyment of life with your phrase "turn your whole life over to it".
In point of fact, many people do this as part of living, and don't count it as work. Most children, when building novel( to them )structures with legos, lincoln logs, blocks, etc, are not "turning their whole lives over to it". They are living, and they are enjoying themselves.
In point of fact, many people do this as part of living, and don't count it as work. Most children, when building novel( to them )structures with legos, lincoln logs, blocks, etc, are not "turning their whole lives over to it". They are living, and they are enjoying themselves.
There's a difference between creating and putting out fires, though. I enjoy creating, but I can also set it aside long enough to spend some time with someone. I DON'T enjoy putting out fires, but it is usually a necessary evil towards a more significant goal.
It's amazing to have a SO who understands and accommodates that, but the two shouldn't be confused - it's the difference between having to fix an emergency, and enjoying coding more than sharing a meal with your SO.
It's amazing to have a SO who understands and accommodates that, but the two shouldn't be confused - it's the difference between having to fix an emergency, and enjoying coding more than sharing a meal with your SO.
I agree with you, I just want to point out the fact that he (the startup guy) DID go to brunch with his SO.
I'm sure that it would have been easier for him to just stay home and work, and go out "some other time" or something like that. I really like that it seems like they both compromised on brunch that day. He joined her for brunch, and she was alright with him doing work at brunch.
Seems like they have a really good relationship.
I'm sure that it would have been easier for him to just stay home and work, and go out "some other time" or something like that. I really like that it seems like they both compromised on brunch that day. He joined her for brunch, and she was alright with him doing work at brunch.
Seems like they have a really good relationship.
Thanks for posting this comment; though I agree with the poster you're replying to, you provide a good counterargument that gave me some insight.
I greatly enjoy creating and producing, so count me in your camp on that issue. And yet I can't see the appeal of diving so deep into the creative process that you lose touch with other important things in life. As time goes by I increasingly view the opportunity cost as too much to bear. Your friends and family grow and change over time; they may move or die or drift away. If you don't spend quality time with them now, it may be prohibitive or impossible to make it up later. The places you've always dreamed of visiting may be very different when you come up for air (consider how New Orleans has changed). The bands you always wanted to see live may have broken up; the bands you wanted to play in may never have formed. You won't have participated in that historic march or rally, you won't have seen that rare animal before it went extinct, you won't have climbed that mountain and seen that glorious landscape before it was marred with suburbs and smokestacks. The world we live in is ephemeral, always changing, and you can never go back.
That doesn't mean you can't create and produce and have a great time doing it, but it does mean that it's worthwhile to carve out enough time to experience as much as possible of the beauty this world has to offer. When I'm lying on my deathbed, I want to look back and remember a life lived to the fullest, full of experience and laughter and love. I do not want to look back at a lifetime spent staring at a laptop screen, regardless of how much I created or how much money I made.
I think a person's stance on this subject is probably determined by the kinds of experiences that they value. If there are only a few types of experiences that really excite you, it probably makes sense to traverse life depth-first, and get as much out of those kinds of experiences as you can. That might mean that long hours and single-minded focus over long periods are the best way to achieve your goals in life. If you are excited by a wide variety of experiences in many different areas, a breadth-first traversal of life is probably more suitable.
I greatly enjoy creating and producing, so count me in your camp on that issue. And yet I can't see the appeal of diving so deep into the creative process that you lose touch with other important things in life. As time goes by I increasingly view the opportunity cost as too much to bear. Your friends and family grow and change over time; they may move or die or drift away. If you don't spend quality time with them now, it may be prohibitive or impossible to make it up later. The places you've always dreamed of visiting may be very different when you come up for air (consider how New Orleans has changed). The bands you always wanted to see live may have broken up; the bands you wanted to play in may never have formed. You won't have participated in that historic march or rally, you won't have seen that rare animal before it went extinct, you won't have climbed that mountain and seen that glorious landscape before it was marred with suburbs and smokestacks. The world we live in is ephemeral, always changing, and you can never go back.
That doesn't mean you can't create and produce and have a great time doing it, but it does mean that it's worthwhile to carve out enough time to experience as much as possible of the beauty this world has to offer. When I'm lying on my deathbed, I want to look back and remember a life lived to the fullest, full of experience and laughter and love. I do not want to look back at a lifetime spent staring at a laptop screen, regardless of how much I created or how much money I made.
I think a person's stance on this subject is probably determined by the kinds of experiences that they value. If there are only a few types of experiences that really excite you, it probably makes sense to traverse life depth-first, and get as much out of those kinds of experiences as you can. That might mean that long hours and single-minded focus over long periods are the best way to achieve your goals in life. If you are excited by a wide variety of experiences in many different areas, a breadth-first traversal of life is probably more suitable.
It's not that I don't enjoy it, it's that I try to balance my life around it. I really enjoy playing video games as well, but I'm not going to sacrifice the most important relationships in my life so that I can play a few more rounds of Call of Duty.
The article is not talking about "bugs that can wait til Monday" or all night coding sessions. It's talking about emergencies that affect your customers that must be dealt with immediately.
You've been with at least 5 startups in 9 years. That suggests to me that none of them were terribly successful, in which case I suppose just about any problem could wait til Monday.
My startup has almost 20,000 paying customers and if something goes wrong, you bet your ass I'm on it immediately, whether it's 3am and I had more than few drinks earlier that evening, or I'm in Hawaii on my birthday and 7 servers lose power and I have to spend the next 5 hours dealing with that mess. Did I mention it was my birthday and I was in Hawaii?
These scenarios are rare, but they do happen. I would never actually take my laptop to a restaurant, but if something bad happens it needs to be dealt with pronto. In the example from the story, I would have either delayed going out, or if it happened when I was already out, then I would leave as soon as possible. In general I don't put work before family or fun but every once in a while you have to if you want to run a successful business.
You've been with at least 5 startups in 9 years. That suggests to me that none of them were terribly successful, in which case I suppose just about any problem could wait til Monday.
My startup has almost 20,000 paying customers and if something goes wrong, you bet your ass I'm on it immediately, whether it's 3am and I had more than few drinks earlier that evening, or I'm in Hawaii on my birthday and 7 servers lose power and I have to spend the next 5 hours dealing with that mess. Did I mention it was my birthday and I was in Hawaii?
These scenarios are rare, but they do happen. I would never actually take my laptop to a restaurant, but if something bad happens it needs to be dealt with pronto. In the example from the story, I would have either delayed going out, or if it happened when I was already out, then I would leave as soon as possible. In general I don't put work before family or fun but every once in a while you have to if you want to run a successful business.
I'm not sure were you got that. I've been with 3 startups in 9 years. One of them continues to this day (and has been quite successful), one flamed out (1 year), and the current one (3.5 years old) is doing tremendously well (well into 7 figures yearly revenue).
I can't help but feel like you didn't really read my comment. It's a matter of triage. It's knowing the difference between a true emergency (the site is down and we're spending money to drive traffic) vs something that can wait (feature X has stopped working). Far too often the workaholics in the startup world are panicking to fix issues that can truly wait. It may be ugly and it may slightly torque off your customers, but it's not the type of issue that needs my immediate attention. In those cases (which are far and away the majority cases) I'm not going to stop my life down to fix those.
I can't help but feel like you didn't really read my comment. It's a matter of triage. It's knowing the difference between a true emergency (the site is down and we're spending money to drive traffic) vs something that can wait (feature X has stopped working). Far too often the workaholics in the startup world are panicking to fix issues that can truly wait. It may be ugly and it may slightly torque off your customers, but it's not the type of issue that needs my immediate attention. In those cases (which are far and away the majority cases) I'm not going to stop my life down to fix those.
From original comment: "I've been involved in startups for the last 9 years (the last 4 as a technical founder)."
He read the last part as the last 4 companies instead of years. FWIW that's also how I originally read it.
He read the last part as the last 4 companies instead of years. FWIW that's also how I originally read it.
Sorry, when you said "I've been involved in startups for the last 9 years (the last 4 as a technical founder)", I took "the last 4" to mean the last 4 startups, not years - from which I gathered there had to be at least 1 more, hence 5 startups. Ok, 3 in 9 years, that's a different story. Sorry, I was kind of grouchy when I wrote my comment... it just seemed like you were playing off any and all problems though as "eh.. it's the weekend".
very well said.
when i was doing a startup in the 90s, my SO was in law school and she was working even longer hours than i was. so our conversations were often "i'm afraid i'm going to have to work late tonight." "bummer. me too, though, so it's probably just as well." we worked side by side a lot too, and both made it a point to be involved in what the other was doing: i'd quiz her about outlines to help study for tests, she gave a lot of feedback on what we were doing as a startup ... it worked out great.
when i was doing a startup in the 90s, my SO was in law school and she was working even longer hours than i was. so our conversations were often "i'm afraid i'm going to have to work late tonight." "bummer. me too, though, so it's probably just as well." we worked side by side a lot too, and both made it a point to be involved in what the other was doing: i'd quiz her about outlines to help study for tests, she gave a lot of feedback on what we were doing as a startup ... it worked out great.
A similar experience occurred for me.
My GF and I went to Vegas for halloween (we both used to live there, so we have many friends and family there) and on the day we were leaving we decided to have a Vietnamese lunch with her parents. I got "the call" from my co-founder that there was a bug and it was affecting many of the systems on both customer and employee facing functionality.
So I told my GF, "I'm going to have to fix this before we begin our four hour drive back to SD." She said, "Okay honey."
I sat there for two hours, programming furiously through lunch with her and her parents till I had it fixed to a point where I could leave it for the next 6 hours. Thank god my Nexus One has tethering support and my girlfriend was supportive. Her parents seemed indifferent but other patrons were looking at us strangely as my GF sat there playing with her phone while I went apeshit on my laptop.
Kudos to the author for being an awesome mate; and I second the advice of becoming "involved".
My GF and I went to Vegas for halloween (we both used to live there, so we have many friends and family there) and on the day we were leaving we decided to have a Vietnamese lunch with her parents. I got "the call" from my co-founder that there was a bug and it was affecting many of the systems on both customer and employee facing functionality.
So I told my GF, "I'm going to have to fix this before we begin our four hour drive back to SD." She said, "Okay honey."
I sat there for two hours, programming furiously through lunch with her and her parents till I had it fixed to a point where I could leave it for the next 6 hours. Thank god my Nexus One has tethering support and my girlfriend was supportive. Her parents seemed indifferent but other patrons were looking at us strangely as my GF sat there playing with her phone while I went apeshit on my laptop.
Kudos to the author for being an awesome mate; and I second the advice of becoming "involved".
I realized that shit usually hits the fans when you say you literally need to sleep with the computer instead of her. :) True story.
The worst thing for my wife I think, is when I'm away from the house with little connectivity, and I need to call her up and ask her to fix something.
"Open up my macbook, now open up this document, now open a terminal, type in ./deploy.sh" etc
I'm not patient giving instructions and she's not patient being on the receiving end of it. But she's been a life saver quite a few times now :)
"Open up my macbook, now open up this document, now open a terminal, type in ./deploy.sh" etc
I'm not patient giving instructions and she's not patient being on the receiving end of it. But she's been a life saver quite a few times now :)
ssh on my phone has been a life saver quite a few times now, too.
Meh. This is basically what it's like to be the SO of a student, or an academic, or a freelance blogger or writer or programmer, basically anyone who has an unstructured work environment. Both my SO and I will go to relatively nice restaurants with our laptops and work and ignore each other.
I forwarded this to my girlfriend. Thanks for providing an SO's perspective so that I can make the point that it's part of the game, and not just me.
Boys, can I give you some friendly advice from a married man here? Don't send this story to your partner. You will send the message: compare yourself to this saintly blogger. It's a lose-lose. Best case: she simply barfs and laughs it off. Worst case? Never mind.
Instead arrange for her to accidentally stumble upon it. Better yet, if you can arrange to have her befriend the blogger in question without mentioning anything...
Barring that, pay the utmost attention to her whenever you are together.
Instead arrange for her to accidentally stumble upon it. Better yet, if you can arrange to have her befriend the blogger in question without mentioning anything...
Barring that, pay the utmost attention to her whenever you are together.
Don't assume this article lets you off the hook, because you'll be single pretty soon.
If you have to resort to forwarding an online blog to her then my money's on her not changing her mind
It is definitely a part of the game -- that's why it is so important to find someone that can understand. I've found the people that understand the most are people who are also ambitious and have the drive to succeed in whatever they do.
My husband has been patient through years of on-call duty and pages at all hours of day, night and weekends. He's been patient through all night maintenance duties and when I'm away for conferences or customer visits few times a year.
I've been patient when his company adapted this agile practice that means a release until 4am every Wednesday.
One thing I'm wondering about is the "get involved" advice: I'm a pretty mean developer, but I work in languages and environments that are very different from what my husband is working on. Whenever I try to discuss his work problems, I end up asking lots of wrong questions and generally annoying him. There is very little I can do to actually help him work on problems. Thats with me having 15 years of coding experience.
There is simply no way a girlfriend who is just learning to code can help her startup SO work on his projects.
I've been patient when his company adapted this agile practice that means a release until 4am every Wednesday.
One thing I'm wondering about is the "get involved" advice: I'm a pretty mean developer, but I work in languages and environments that are very different from what my husband is working on. Whenever I try to discuss his work problems, I end up asking lots of wrong questions and generally annoying him. There is very little I can do to actually help him work on problems. Thats with me having 15 years of coding experience.
There is simply no way a girlfriend who is just learning to code can help her startup SO work on his projects.
I feel the last part is just untrue. If s/he can't help in a coding capacity there are plenty of opportunities to help otherwise. It's akin to having a role in a family.
Of course there are plenty of opportunities to help. However, telling the GF "learn to code so you can help him with his projects" can lead to wrong expectations.
That's true, and I didn't necessarily mean that the gf could/would help code the actual project, but having a knowledge of the logic or syntax could be useful. Sometimes there's just a semicolon missing somewhere (etc.) and fresh eyes are needed to spot it, and a basic understanding of coding/that particular language could help in those situations.
Not sure how I feel about this anecdote - the SO is unusually accommodating, and it may be tempting to interpret this story as inspiration not to worry about relationships when you're working on a startup. (Or any bursty, time-demanding job, really.)
I've done a couple of startups, and went back to school a few years ago. My husband is a game developer. So I think it's not unreasonable to claim some familiarity with these issues. =)
The key is communication - especially for men, who are not always inclined to talk about relationships unless something is obviously wrong. Remember, women initiate most divorces and most men have no idea it's coming! You need to touch base regularly and make sure that problems aren't building up.
Engineers, think of the Rule of Tens: It's ten times harder to fix a problem after it's become a pattern than when it's fresh, and a hundred times harder to fix if your partner is prepared to break up over it.
Also, be sure to set aside regular times to spend together, and do everything in your power to avoid being sucked back into work. Occasional lapses are okay, but you can't expect to be someone's highest priority when you put them at the bottom of your priorities.
I've done a couple of startups, and went back to school a few years ago. My husband is a game developer. So I think it's not unreasonable to claim some familiarity with these issues. =)
The key is communication - especially for men, who are not always inclined to talk about relationships unless something is obviously wrong. Remember, women initiate most divorces and most men have no idea it's coming! You need to touch base regularly and make sure that problems aren't building up.
Engineers, think of the Rule of Tens: It's ten times harder to fix a problem after it's become a pattern than when it's fresh, and a hundred times harder to fix if your partner is prepared to break up over it.
Also, be sure to set aside regular times to spend together, and do everything in your power to avoid being sucked back into work. Occasional lapses are okay, but you can't expect to be someone's highest priority when you put them at the bottom of your priorities.
> the SO is unusually accommodating
This is what I consider a working relationship. It’s kind of like being poly, each partner has to accommodate the other’s external love (for work, as it is). I’ve seen this between pairs of artists, athletes, artist+programmers and musician+designers. It’s never people who have “just a day job” but rather those who view their trade as a superset of their life. The accommodation for the partner is really just understanding and accepting the need to create in another as a legitimate part of the relationship.
Since the writer did the same to her husband, I’m assuming this isn’t a big issue...
This is what I consider a working relationship. It’s kind of like being poly, each partner has to accommodate the other’s external love (for work, as it is). I’ve seen this between pairs of artists, athletes, artist+programmers and musician+designers. It’s never people who have “just a day job” but rather those who view their trade as a superset of their life. The accommodation for the partner is really just understanding and accepting the need to create in another as a legitimate part of the relationship.
Since the writer did the same to her husband, I’m assuming this isn’t a big issue...
totally agreed on the importance of communication -- and setting aside time regularly
Eh, not really a fan of this post. First, when I have to handle a 911 for our company, I cancel my plans and/or leave to fix it. I'd never hack from a restaurant table. My wife would rather me not be there than be hiding behind a laptop.
Plus, it shouldn't happen that often. If you're canceling plans and ignoring your SO on a frequent basis, then you're doing it wrong or you simply shouldn't be in a relationship.
"One of the best ways to combat this is to get involved yourself. Teach yourself to code ..."
This is totally unappealing to me unless you're already dating/married to a hacker/founder. Creating "artificial common ground" just so you can have more time with someone reeks of trouble to me.
(FYI, founder for 8+ years, married for 6, 4 kids)
Plus, it shouldn't happen that often. If you're canceling plans and ignoring your SO on a frequent basis, then you're doing it wrong or you simply shouldn't be in a relationship.
"One of the best ways to combat this is to get involved yourself. Teach yourself to code ..."
This is totally unappealing to me unless you're already dating/married to a hacker/founder. Creating "artificial common ground" just so you can have more time with someone reeks of trouble to me.
(FYI, founder for 8+ years, married for 6, 4 kids)
I suspect that this is only half the story. The other half has him being emotionally invested in the relationship, treating her like she's important, and doing all the other things that people in loving, healthy relationships do.
A well oiled relationship can accommodate disruptions and uncertainty, you just have to do the work necessary to make it "well oiled".
If your significant other won't tolerate these sort of things, then you should probably think hard about where your relationship stands.
A well oiled relationship can accommodate disruptions and uncertainty, you just have to do the work necessary to make it "well oiled".
If your significant other won't tolerate these sort of things, then you should probably think hard about where your relationship stands.
I've had the same exact thing happen to me, but I'm the startup founder and my girlfriend is a management consultant. She's been known to take her laptop out to bars.
In many parts of the world (and USA) it's considered pretty disrespectful to take a phone call while seated at a restaurant.
Now 'furiously coding' at the restaurant (not a coffee shop) -- that I've never seen before, and I've lived in SF for a long time.
Now 'furiously coding' at the restaurant (not a coffee shop) -- that I've never seen before, and I've lived in SF for a long time.
This is what struck me most about this article - that they seemed to think it was OK to sit in a a restaurant with a laptop open on the table, and not even being coy about it! It's plain disrespectful, not even so much to the people at your table (who presumably are either ok with it or at least know the person and could interfere), but more to the other patrons and staff. Imagine going out for nice night in town and some moron pulls out his computer at the table next to you and starts banging away and polluting the atmosphere with his bright lcd screen. Luckily around here waiters are starting to stand up for patrons and are asking people on their phones to move outside while they talk (which is a comparable social faux pas, but happens much more).
(note that it depends on the definition of 'restaurant' - I realize that McDonalds is called a 'restaurant' too in some parts of the world, I mean a place with tablecloths and staff that comes to your table, so starting at around a neighborhood pizza place or so. Also I've asked my wife to move to the bar or the lobby several times when she got out her computer in similar situations, I've been on all sides of the table on this one.)
(note that it depends on the definition of 'restaurant' - I realize that McDonalds is called a 'restaurant' too in some parts of the world, I mean a place with tablecloths and staff that comes to your table, so starting at around a neighborhood pizza place or so. Also I've asked my wife to move to the bar or the lobby several times when she got out her computer in similar situations, I've been on all sides of the table on this one.)
My girlfriend would never stand for this, there are 6 days of the week I can work whenever I need to, but when it comes to Sunday brunch its hands off. Thats our time. It got interrupted once with a work issue, and she still brings it up.
The odds of your startup succeeding are better than the odds of you finding a girl as cool as this.
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I think that the really interesting piece of this article was how often the SO is talking about a "we". This is the really important part of it all - if its not a we, it does not have a very good chance.
I've had bugs popup on the weekend or during a vacation (and I do travel with my laptop everywhere I go). 99% of the time they fall into the 'we can live with that until Monday' category. My relationship with my wife and friends is simply too important to let something as trivial as a startup get in the way of it.
I just can't help but feel like we're continuing to romanticize this workaholic culture. That somehow to be a 'real' entrepreneur you have to turn your whole life over to it.
This is one place that I agree with the guys from 37 signals. You don't have to kill yourself to make a business go. You don't have to work 80 (or 120) hour weeks.
Starting a business is a marathon, and like all marathons it requires pacing. A large part of that is learning to separate the real emergencies from the perceived ones. Just because something isn't working, it doesn't mean that your business will fall over if it continues not to work for 48 hours. That sort of triage is really important if your going to maintain your sanity to get to the fourth year.
Just how I see it at least. My wife would certainly write a very different article than this one.