Ask HN: Do you care about the product you are building?
19 comments
The product I'm building is a solid product and has a good market fit, but I'd be lying if I said I cared about it. We use pretty modern tools (Kube/spinnaker/opencensus, GCP/AWS/Azure/Alibaba, GRPC, redis, etc) which are interesting at first, but they all really cease to matter a few months in.
At least switching from one tool to another is a cool technical challenge and a good chance to rewrite some bad code, but the rest of the time is spent writing yet another RPC service.
Honestly I'm just here for the paycheck and location. Any company that offers me better compensation with the same work-life balance is one I'd jump ship for immediately.
At least switching from one tool to another is a cool technical challenge and a good chance to rewrite some bad code, but the rest of the time is spent writing yet another RPC service.
Honestly I'm just here for the paycheck and location. Any company that offers me better compensation with the same work-life balance is one I'd jump ship for immediately.
I don't care so much about tools, and I don't really care about the product. I do care about solving problems. Does the company have problems that I'm good at solving? Are they interesting problems? (Admittedly, somewhat tied to the product.) Do they have enough of them to keep me busy for a while? They don't make missile guidance systems or ad tech? Then I don't think I care what kind of software widget we're making, when would like my first day to be?
Oh, I don't have "passion" for the product? Who gives a shit? I have passion for doing the best work I possibly can if I hire on to your company. Whether you're making Exciting New Whatever Tech or a boring ass old CRUD app, I will you give you my best, guaranteed. Never will you hear an excuse out of me about how the product doesn't "excite" me. That's what I care about, and it's what companies ought to care about when they're hiring people.
Oh, I don't have "passion" for the product? Who gives a shit? I have passion for doing the best work I possibly can if I hire on to your company. Whether you're making Exciting New Whatever Tech or a boring ass old CRUD app, I will you give you my best, guaranteed. Never will you hear an excuse out of me about how the product doesn't "excite" me. That's what I care about, and it's what companies ought to care about when they're hiring people.
Yes, I do!
When I built Caddy, I actually needed a web server that met my specific needs. It HAD to work well, and when the community jumped on board to contribute, I found out I wasn't the only one with those needs.
Now I'm writing a file backup service for consumers like my sister and brother but also developers like myself, because I want my family to be able to preserve our memories. Existing solutions just aren't satisfying for our needs. With generations of family history and photos and lifestyle potentially on the line, you bet I care that we get it right!
We're not using any flashy technologies to make them. Most of it's pretty boring. But it's SO satisfying to see it working.
When I built Caddy, I actually needed a web server that met my specific needs. It HAD to work well, and when the community jumped on board to contribute, I found out I wasn't the only one with those needs.
Now I'm writing a file backup service for consumers like my sister and brother but also developers like myself, because I want my family to be able to preserve our memories. Existing solutions just aren't satisfying for our needs. With generations of family history and photos and lifestyle potentially on the line, you bet I care that we get it right!
We're not using any flashy technologies to make them. Most of it's pretty boring. But it's SO satisfying to see it working.
Let me ask you one question though - Can you think of any steps during the hiring process where the interest in a product from a candidate is highlighted?
Besides the usual 15 minute monologue from recruiters trying to do keywords matching, briefly talking about the company (you can google most of it). I can't remember anyone asking me about my vision regarding any products I worked on during the interview process. After that 1st phone call it's not about the product or the company anymore, it's all about testing you like a college kid getting ready for an exam. Now it's about you wanting to join their team. Not them trying to convince you to join.
What would be a solution? Hire people who care about the product, not only the company logo. It's cool if you know how to write a function in order to find the shortest path in a graph. It's awesome if you love using a pen on a whiteboard. How about asking you how you could improve our product? What problems do you think could be solved within a specific industry? So, looks like the hiring process has to be completely re-written.
Besides the usual 15 minute monologue from recruiters trying to do keywords matching, briefly talking about the company (you can google most of it). I can't remember anyone asking me about my vision regarding any products I worked on during the interview process. After that 1st phone call it's not about the product or the company anymore, it's all about testing you like a college kid getting ready for an exam. Now it's about you wanting to join their team. Not them trying to convince you to join.
What would be a solution? Hire people who care about the product, not only the company logo. It's cool if you know how to write a function in order to find the shortest path in a graph. It's awesome if you love using a pen on a whiteboard. How about asking you how you could improve our product? What problems do you think could be solved within a specific industry? So, looks like the hiring process has to be completely re-written.
I've been rejected from a (startup) job because I did not, they claim, appear to be sufficiently enthusiastic about the product.
At the time, I found it doubly strange, since it was one of the most interesting and useful products I'd seen, and because everybody I met at that company had the energy of a Steven Wright monologue drowning in molasses.
Since then, the company appears to have pivoted pretty severely (new business plan, new logo, new offices, etc) so I'm not sure any of it would have mattered at all. Hiring in software is completely broken.
At the time, I found it doubly strange, since it was one of the most interesting and useful products I'd seen, and because everybody I met at that company had the energy of a Steven Wright monologue drowning in molasses.
Since then, the company appears to have pivoted pretty severely (new business plan, new logo, new offices, etc) so I'm not sure any of it would have mattered at all. Hiring in software is completely broken.
Startups actually care. You often see interest in their product/industry as one of requirements.
But large companies care much less. It's much more important for them to find a person who will be effective with their well defined processes.
But large companies care much less. It's much more important for them to find a person who will be effective with their well defined processes.
Not all startups care unfortunately, it is not specific to large companies :) How many times I hear things like "come join us, we're backed by XYZ", "We have raised $ABC", "our founders are ex people from 123 Inc.". Since there's no brand or value built over time yet, they have to find ways to attract developers. At the end of the day, it's hard to find great developers.
If your mission as an early stage startup is to disrupt the yoga industry for example (no offense to this industry at all), then you might quickly run out of options in terms of product/mission fit if you only use a whiteboard as your primarily evaluation tool. I really believe the hiring process is totally broken because it's not taking into account the ability for candidates to learn and the business impact they could have on a product. It's all about what they know in the moment and what technologies they've worked with.
If your mission as an early stage startup is to disrupt the yoga industry for example (no offense to this industry at all), then you might quickly run out of options in terms of product/mission fit if you only use a whiteboard as your primarily evaluation tool. I really believe the hiring process is totally broken because it's not taking into account the ability for candidates to learn and the business impact they could have on a product. It's all about what they know in the moment and what technologies they've worked with.
> How about asking how you could improve our product?
I often have ideas along those lines but they are not usually welcome. Improvements of that nature are supposed to come from product manager/designer, not a jira ticket machine AKA dev
I often have ideas along those lines but they are not usually welcome. Improvements of that nature are supposed to come from product manager/designer, not a jira ticket machine AKA dev
I happen to be building tools, so yes :D
Seriously though, the larger industry I am in and the purpose of my employer is to make video games. I make tools to make video games. I am invested in the tools I produce. I am less invested in the types of games we make from a playing them perspective (in that they're not really the kinds of games I usually like to play), and don't really care or keep up with most of the public design debates etc that we often have running about our games. But I am very invested in our games from a pride-in-our-work-as-a-studio perspective. I want to help make good products, both for the teams I service through my tools development and for the end product my employer puts out to external consumers.
Seriously though, the larger industry I am in and the purpose of my employer is to make video games. I make tools to make video games. I am invested in the tools I produce. I am less invested in the types of games we make from a playing them perspective (in that they're not really the kinds of games I usually like to play), and don't really care or keep up with most of the public design debates etc that we often have running about our games. But I am very invested in our games from a pride-in-our-work-as-a-studio perspective. I want to help make good products, both for the teams I service through my tools development and for the end product my employer puts out to external consumers.
Yes, I wouldn't want to work on something that in the end just tries to sell more widgets, or serve more effective ads. I currently work in water management software.
The obvious follow-up is: did you have to compromise on other aspects of the job (like tooling, salary, or location) to be able to work on a meaningful project?
Growth prospects perhaps, it's a pretty small company.
And I tried some different things in the past (computer vision research for agrotech and food, software development at a medical startup) and recruiter types find it hard to put me into a neat box. So when I'm looking to switch it can be hard to find jobs that I like and then to convince them that I'm a good fit for them. But luckily I'm very happy where I am right now.
And I tried some different things in the past (computer vision research for agrotech and food, software development at a medical startup) and recruiter types find it hard to put me into a neat box. So when I'm looking to switch it can be hard to find jobs that I like and then to convince them that I'm a good fit for them. But luckily I'm very happy where I am right now.
I'm not the author of the comment above, but I did. I didn't compromise too much, but I could have done much better I believe, have I prioritized salary/tech/opportunities.
But I get to build a thing that is meaningful to me
But I get to build a thing that is meaningful to me
I had zero emotional investment at first, but the parts I work with most grew on me. I also care a lot about the people around me. And I care a lot about the tools I am using too, I love my setup, and I'm also active in the community within the company, that's built around that toolset.
If I had to prioritize the above, I care about my team the most, the tools second and the actual product third.
To value people's care about the product, can be either very idealisic, totally misguided, or perfectly legit, very highly depending on the circumstances. Me with my team herd cattles basically, large website and infra, features come and go, tickets come from business people who themselves get orders basically. But if I were to gather people around me for the startup I'm about to start, I'd like to have them to believe that we're doing something good.
If I had to prioritize the above, I care about my team the most, the tools second and the actual product third.
To value people's care about the product, can be either very idealisic, totally misguided, or perfectly legit, very highly depending on the circumstances. Me with my team herd cattles basically, large website and infra, features come and go, tickets come from business people who themselves get orders basically. But if I were to gather people around me for the startup I'm about to start, I'd like to have them to believe that we're doing something good.
It’s one thing to not really care about the product you’re building, and another to feel uncomfortable with what you’re building. I’m in the latter boat at the moment, and after losing some sleep about it I’ve come to the conclusion that I need to get out. I’m looking for new opportunities but I have a family and can’t just walk. In the meantime I’m trying not to let my feelings effect the quality of my work or my relationships with my coworkers. It’s challenging.
So many good comments in this thread, there are several I agree strongly with (these are the highlights, but I agree with these comments entirely):
> Any company that offers me better compensation with the same work-life balance is one I'd jump ship for immediately.
> Oh, I don't have "passion" for the product? Who gives a shit? I have passion for doing the best work I possibly can if I hire on to your company.
> After that 1st phone call it's not about the product or the company anymore, it's all about testing you
> Hiring in software is completely broken.
> I currently work in water management software.
My own take: imagine I wrote all of those interesting tidbits, and eventually I see myself going back to slinging code for physics labs somewhere in the country, which is how I started. My first web dev project was a CRUD lab management application that went on to be used for years after they had bought a solution. That project really mattered and I hope to one day feel that kind of fulfillment from my code again.
> Any company that offers me better compensation with the same work-life balance is one I'd jump ship for immediately.
> Oh, I don't have "passion" for the product? Who gives a shit? I have passion for doing the best work I possibly can if I hire on to your company.
> After that 1st phone call it's not about the product or the company anymore, it's all about testing you
> Hiring in software is completely broken.
> I currently work in water management software.
My own take: imagine I wrote all of those interesting tidbits, and eventually I see myself going back to slinging code for physics labs somewhere in the country, which is how I started. My first web dev project was a CRUD lab management application that went on to be used for years after they had bought a solution. That project really mattered and I hope to one day feel that kind of fulfillment from my code again.
I do. I’ve worked at two of the biggest companies in the games industry, I’ve made two independent iOS games, I’m now about to get into block chain related work and I’m the founder of a service that provides automated test results reporting that is growing in usage across the world. I do think the product matters, but also perhaps more importantly you need to have personal and professional growth. I realize that growth and product are not necessarily aligned but if you can make them align it’s the best.
I could frankly care less about tools. I would not work on something i do not care about, and all tools are fun to use if you are solving fun problems with a great team of coworkers.
This question took me by surprise because since I'm not a developer but a "business/marketing/product guy" the only reason I go into a project is because I do care about the product. Is so strange reading the answers.
I do appreciate it though, I have a new found respect for my developers that have shown again and again that they do care what we are building.
I do appreciate it though, I have a new found respect for my developers that have shown again and again that they do care what we are building.
I joined a team because of the eagerness to adopt a modern devops workflow. Having a nice environment to work in as a Dev almost makes working on shit you don't care about worthwhile. I'd much rather be working in clean energy, education, or healthcare. I tell myself I'll get to those industries when I have more experience...
Both are important. The end product has to be nice/useful for deeper motivation. The tools in use can indicate the philosophy of the business and give hints about the general ambiance of the job. Who would choose to spend 40 hours per week with tools that makes them feel underproductive?
Agreed. But if the product doesn't do any good to the world, can you have ANY motivation at all? Even if the tech is awesome
It can work well and the people further up the hierarchy can be happy about it, and could share this happiness with you with bonuses and other perks. If this would happen, I'd be more inclined to be invested in the thing, even if it were not especially the pinnacle of human altruism.
Most developers I have worked with have cared more about the product they are building than the tools, but they still care a lot about the tools because they often improve the product.
Aspects of it, sure. I'm more enthusiastic about the founders enthusiasm in the product. You can tell that he really believes in what we are building.
I am a marketing consultant (So a little different) but I am extremely picky about clients. I only want to promote good products.
Yes. Also I don't care much about tools, I like my visual studio but I'm ok using anything else that does the job.
Visual Studio is such a good tool it sort of means you don't have to care.
I don't get easily excited so if I were to set the bar there I would struggle a lot with finding jobs.
Am I wrong? Am I just a nagging idealist?