99designs: Need something designed (logo, ...)? Crowdsource it.(99designs.com)
99designs.com
99designs: Need something designed (logo, ...)? Crowdsource it.
http://99designs.com/
51 comments
Text from under one of the contests linked in this thread, from a designer, posted 1 hour ago:
since there is no forum here, I have to post it here. after 200 designs, seeing many of my idea's incorperated into other peoples designs, and some do it be better, but still. I have decided to leave, no more free idea's from me for the other more experienced designers. The game is over, I unsubscribe, if I can figure out how, and leave it for what it is. The site owners make money on it now (39 credits a pop) , designers got free idea's, and I make more money now locally then I ever would make here. (like zero until now.;o) ) So I bid you all a farewell, it was an experiment for me, and I must say, with a negativ result. I wish all the designers a good time here, and many profits, it was a different experience and it was fun when it was free, also for the contest holders, but for now, I am gone. cheerio.
since there is no forum here, I have to post it here. after 200 designs, seeing many of my idea's incorperated into other peoples designs, and some do it be better, but still. I have decided to leave, no more free idea's from me for the other more experienced designers. The game is over, I unsubscribe, if I can figure out how, and leave it for what it is. The site owners make money on it now (39 credits a pop) , designers got free idea's, and I make more money now locally then I ever would make here. (like zero until now.;o) ) So I bid you all a farewell, it was an experiment for me, and I must say, with a negativ result. I wish all the designers a good time here, and many profits, it was a different experience and it was fun when it was free, also for the contest holders, but for now, I am gone. cheerio.
I think you were trying to post to the article about these "contest" sites being possibly illegal.
You know, this is a case where I think that the laws, if being broken, should be broken.
I think that these sites are more like "submitting a request for comps and receiving them" more than a "contest."
Now if people are running these "contests" and not fulfilling their end of the bargain, then they are bastards and should be caned.
But for people in developing countries with great design skills (or people in developed countries that are looking for experience) these "contests" provide a much greater potential for income that they normally wouldn't get.
I think that a lot of this whining about the legality and "morality" of these sites and contests by the establishment (in this case the design firms and professional designers) is simply a case of them being afraid of lower cost alternatives (that might be better than them!).
This may be another case of p2p and digital music vs. the recording industry and the RIAA. There will be some losers (napster) but the cat is already out of the bag.
You know, this is a case where I think that the laws, if being broken, should be broken.
I think that these sites are more like "submitting a request for comps and receiving them" more than a "contest."
Now if people are running these "contests" and not fulfilling their end of the bargain, then they are bastards and should be caned.
But for people in developing countries with great design skills (or people in developed countries that are looking for experience) these "contests" provide a much greater potential for income that they normally wouldn't get.
I think that a lot of this whining about the legality and "morality" of these sites and contests by the establishment (in this case the design firms and professional designers) is simply a case of them being afraid of lower cost alternatives (that might be better than them!).
This may be another case of p2p and digital music vs. the recording industry and the RIAA. There will be some losers (napster) but the cat is already out of the bag.
What's the difference between this site and saying to a hacker:
"Make a web application to my specs, please. Do it a few different ways so I have options. If I don't like it, I won't use it, but I won't pay for it, either."
Some industries do follow this model (e.g. architecture, design, custom enterprise SW), but the business case for proposals/POCs/loss-leaders can only be justified when:
(# of proposals generated) x (cost of work to produce proposals) < (value of awarded contracts) - (cost to fulfill contracts)
However, with contest sites/spec work, that equation only makes sense if you value your time (costs) at close to zero, since the ratio of proposals generated to awarded contracts is so lopsided.
"Make a web application to my specs, please. Do it a few different ways so I have options. If I don't like it, I won't use it, but I won't pay for it, either."
Some industries do follow this model (e.g. architecture, design, custom enterprise SW), but the business case for proposals/POCs/loss-leaders can only be justified when:
(# of proposals generated) x (cost of work to produce proposals) < (value of awarded contracts) - (cost to fulfill contracts)
However, with contest sites/spec work, that equation only makes sense if you value your time (costs) at close to zero, since the ratio of proposals generated to awarded contracts is so lopsided.
What's the difference between this site and saying to a hacker:
"Make [X]... If I don't like it, I won't use it... I won't pay for it, either."
On one hand, there is no difference. People say this to hackers all the time. On Drupal.org this happens so much that there's an official process: There's a specific category in the ticket tracker called "Feature Request" which is applied to tickets in which end users beg the open-source developers to spend their free time developing one feature or another.
Some of those requests succeed. But many of them are ignored, because the number of feature requests and their complexity is orders of magnitude greater than the number of available hackers and their talent.
Of course, if code is built in five minutes for free by a twelve-year-old, it often doesn't work. (To get it to work, you have to pay the twelve-year-old $100 per hour to fix the bugs.) But if a corporate logo is a paint-by-numbers collection of the latest trendy visual cliches, thrown together in five minutes for free by (e.g.) the kind of amateur Photoshop jockey who enters the Fark Photoshop contests... most business owners will never know the difference.
The designers on the no-spec site (e.g. http://www.no-spec.com/articles/why-speculation-hurts/ ) sound like tailors, trying to convince us that mass-market clothing made in sweatshops and sold off the rack is a terrible product when compared to bespoke-tailored suits. And they're right, of course. But from the perspective of an owner of the local pizza parlor who needs a quick logo, it may not make much difference.
I will say, though, that no-spec.com offers some of the most effectively-designed FUD I've ever seen. You should definitely shop there for all your scary-signage needs.
On one hand, there is no difference. People say this to hackers all the time. On Drupal.org this happens so much that there's an official process: There's a specific category in the ticket tracker called "Feature Request" which is applied to tickets in which end users beg the open-source developers to spend their free time developing one feature or another.
Some of those requests succeed. But many of them are ignored, because the number of feature requests and their complexity is orders of magnitude greater than the number of available hackers and their talent.
Of course, if code is built in five minutes for free by a twelve-year-old, it often doesn't work. (To get it to work, you have to pay the twelve-year-old $100 per hour to fix the bugs.) But if a corporate logo is a paint-by-numbers collection of the latest trendy visual cliches, thrown together in five minutes for free by (e.g.) the kind of amateur Photoshop jockey who enters the Fark Photoshop contests... most business owners will never know the difference.
The designers on the no-spec site (e.g. http://www.no-spec.com/articles/why-speculation-hurts/ ) sound like tailors, trying to convince us that mass-market clothing made in sweatshops and sold off the rack is a terrible product when compared to bespoke-tailored suits. And they're right, of course. But from the perspective of an owner of the local pizza parlor who needs a quick logo, it may not make much difference.
I will say, though, that no-spec.com offers some of the most effectively-designed FUD I've ever seen. You should definitely shop there for all your scary-signage needs.
as I've already mentioned in another post, this isn't new for programmers; It's been around for years. (Correct me if I'm wrong but Google map's origins can be traced to one) Here are a few examples:
http://code.google.com/android/adc.html
http://www.netflixprize.com/
We're still fine, and I'm not mad about it either. It's not like companies like Google and Netflix are forcing people to code at gun point. There is choice involved. If contests cause my work situation to change for the worse, then I adapt (or get lazy and become obsolete...)
http://code.google.com/android/adc.html
http://www.netflixprize.com/
We're still fine, and I'm not mad about it either. It's not like companies like Google and Netflix are forcing people to code at gun point. There is choice involved. If contests cause my work situation to change for the worse, then I adapt (or get lazy and become obsolete...)
Except that entries to those contests have value that isn't tied directly to the contest-giver-- android apps can be resold independently, and netflixprize entrants are developing machine learning algorithms that have tremendous value (and it's open-source, IIRC, which is a whole different kettle of fish).
In a logo design competition, the elements cannot (easily) be resold or repurposed, since they are specific to the specs of a particular client.
Also, winning one the Android or Netfliz prizes confers lots of value in terms of publicity, which can't be said of 10,000 small logo competitions.
One other note: Rentacoder, for instance, has specific rules prohibiting posting design comps or source code to prevent uncompensated work.
In a logo design competition, the elements cannot (easily) be resold or repurposed, since they are specific to the specs of a particular client.
Also, winning one the Android or Netfliz prizes confers lots of value in terms of publicity, which can't be said of 10,000 small logo competitions.
One other note: Rentacoder, for instance, has specific rules prohibiting posting design comps or source code to prevent uncompensated work.
well program submissions for contests can take weeks or months to develop... logo contests typically only last for a few days at most.
the price of entry isn't as much comparatively and again it's by choice
besides its not like u can't take off the company's name and just include the design in your portfolio. it still has some value
the price of entry isn't as much comparatively and again it's by choice
besides its not like u can't take off the company's name and just include the design in your portfolio. it still has some value
I don't think he was trying to post a link to that specific article. The site at large is relevant with its argument: "spec work devalues the potential of design and ultimately does a disservice to the client".
the problem with the site (no-spec.com), aside from the legal argument, is that its arguments for "spec work devalues the potential of design" are pretty weak. It runs with the main assumption that only talentless, "less-than-great" designers would go for this... which judging from the 99designs submissions - isn't true
Most of the submissions are awful.
well most companies and people can't afford to hire a good firm, and it's hell of a lot better than what most people can do.
It's meeting a market need for good enough design (to me it's great) for the little cash most seed startups and people have. I get the impression that the designers against this feel that the design firms are going to go away... I don't feel that they will since they serve a different market
It's meeting a market need for good enough design (to me it's great) for the little cash most seed startups and people have. I get the impression that the designers against this feel that the design firms are going to go away... I don't feel that they will since they serve a different market
But some of the submissions are good. And you only need one logo.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dollar_auction
This is why people don't like speculative work.
This is why people don't like speculative work.
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I've got a serious problem with 'no-spec'. It makes a lot of bad assumptions, especially in the sense that thee designer has no guarantee of being paid, and devaluing any work. This would only be true of a designer for any reason is working without having formalized a proposal and or contract.
And if you're working without a contract or some sort of document that states and works in the interest of both parties, then yes you're only hurting yourself.
Either/or, if you win the contest or not, doing the work is just great practice, and design is a skill you have to continue to work at. If you're not practicing your skill you're not worth anything to anybody.
And if you're working without a contract or some sort of document that states and works in the interest of both parties, then yes you're only hurting yourself.
Either/or, if you win the contest or not, doing the work is just great practice, and design is a skill you have to continue to work at. If you're not practicing your skill you're not worth anything to anybody.
Another nice site in this contest-design space is DesignOutpost, http://www.designoutpost.com .
I'm often impressed with the variety of good designs which show up for just $100-300 prize money.
I'm often impressed with the variety of good designs which show up for just $100-300 prize money.
Yes, they were the first who started this. I used them 3-4 years ago with good results (actually, all submissions were terrible except for one, but that one was good.) I bought a good but available domain name in case I ever wanted to make their idea into a web app.
I would feel kinda lame making 30+ people spend several hours working for me and then not paying them anything.
You aren't making anyone do anything. They choose to participate. If they think it's a bum deal, they don't have to do it.
What ARE they thinking, though? I mean, either they are not thinking, or they should think it is a bum deal?
Some alternatives come to mind, but none compelling in the long run:
- I need to practice anyway (but not in the long run, hopefully)
- I am the best and I will win (ok, maybe you deserve what you get)
- I want to be a designer, but nobody will pay me anyway, so at least I get to do my job for free (= ok, so it is a bum job, but I am a loser anyway, so I can't expect anything better).
Some alternatives come to mind, but none compelling in the long run:
- I need to practice anyway (but not in the long run, hopefully)
- I am the best and I will win (ok, maybe you deserve what you get)
- I want to be a designer, but nobody will pay me anyway, so at least I get to do my job for free (= ok, so it is a bum job, but I am a loser anyway, so I can't expect anything better).
it's like saying that it's retarded to enter a programming contest, which I disagree with
Yeah I do agree that it's best for people honing their skills and experience; and for people living in low-cost places where payment in high value currency is worth it (rentacoder, elance, ...). Hell maybe it's fun for some designers like programming is fun for some programmers. What's wrong with that?
I'm still really confused over what I perceive to be antagonism towards contests (unless you own a mom & pop design firm)...
Yeah I do agree that it's best for people honing their skills and experience; and for people living in low-cost places where payment in high value currency is worth it (rentacoder, elance, ...). Hell maybe it's fun for some designers like programming is fun for some programmers. What's wrong with that?
I'm still really confused over what I perceive to be antagonism towards contests (unless you own a mom & pop design firm)...
Programming contest: yes, for students it is OK, that point I mentioned ("still need to practice"). After a while it becomes pointless.
"low-cost" places: well, if they want to continue living in low-cost places, sure. But in general, even if you come from a cheap country, why should you be forced to work for little money like that, instead of doing proper consulting?
Doing it for fun: sure, if you have the time... I just think it would probably be more fun to do the same thing for real money and a real assignment. What in the "contest" makes it more fun than working for the client directly?
"low-cost" places: well, if they want to continue living in low-cost places, sure. But in general, even if you come from a cheap country, why should you be forced to work for little money like that, instead of doing proper consulting?
Doing it for fun: sure, if you have the time... I just think it would probably be more fun to do the same thing for real money and a real assignment. What in the "contest" makes it more fun than working for the client directly?
But I think it's a bum deal. I may not directly be taking advantage of people, but I'm giving people an opportunity to be had. Which doesn't sit well with me.
I don't think you should look at it that way. There are a lot of people out there that would like to give it a go - some do it for fun, some try to get a portfolio together, and some are students trying to get better at what they do. There are many reasons for participating, and not all of them have dollars attached.
On the other hand, you're overpaying the winner. Because the winner would never rationally spend 5 hours on a $250 contest if he could get paid more than $50 an hour for a regular gig.
So the people that participate in 99designs should be the people that are undervalued in the marketplace, and 99designs helps to correct that.
So the people that participate in 99designs should be the people that are undervalued in the marketplace, and 99designs helps to correct that.
I think that a couple hours of design practice could be valuable to a designer regardless of whether he wins the cash.
Practicing is always valuable. But if a company asks designers to "practice" for them on a commercial project they should compensate them.
Try inserting another profession into your sentence and see if it still sounds reasonable.
Try inserting another profession into your sentence and see if it still sounds reasonable.
We have contests in our profession (programming/development) all the time, and we're still fine.
Here's one example from Google: http://code.google.com/android/adc.html
Here's one from Netflix: http://www.netflixprize.com/
The difference being instead of hours (or even days), programming contest submissions can take weeks or even months (and in some extreme cases - years) of work.
Engineers are subject to contests too: http://www.xprize.org/
They seem to be doing fine by me
Here's one example from Google: http://code.google.com/android/adc.html
Here's one from Netflix: http://www.netflixprize.com/
The difference being instead of hours (or even days), programming contest submissions can take weeks or even months (and in some extreme cases - years) of work.
Engineers are subject to contests too: http://www.xprize.org/
They seem to be doing fine by me
> The difference being instead of hours (or even days), programming contest submissions can take weeks or even months (and in some extreme cases - years) of work.
You don't think the time spent on entries simply reflects the prize money involved? How much time would groups be putting into Netflix's contest if it was for a $250 prize?
Also notice how both Google and Netflix pay contestants along the way (Google giving $25,000 to fifty groups for completing the first phase, Netflix giving $50,000 each year to the group that makes the best improvement).
Those contests are legitimate contests. They are truly seeking creative and valuable entries. And they reward the winners with millions of dollars.
The "contests" at 99designs are just regular contract work where companies are trying to get as much labor for as little as possible.
You don't think the time spent on entries simply reflects the prize money involved? How much time would groups be putting into Netflix's contest if it was for a $250 prize?
Also notice how both Google and Netflix pay contestants along the way (Google giving $25,000 to fifty groups for completing the first phase, Netflix giving $50,000 each year to the group that makes the best improvement).
Those contests are legitimate contests. They are truly seeking creative and valuable entries. And they reward the winners with millions of dollars.
The "contests" at 99designs are just regular contract work where companies are trying to get as much labor for as little as possible.
you're right - but it sucks a lot harder to lose after spending weeks/months on something as opposed to a few hours.
these contests are the same as programming ones, the main difference being that the rewards and the time to complete a submission are lower
"Those contests are legitimate contests. They are truly seeking creative and valuable entries. "
So you're saying that creating a logo isn't creative and valuable to a company?
at the end of the day this is still about choice - something that you're ignoring
these contests are the same as programming ones, the main difference being that the rewards and the time to complete a submission are lower
"Those contests are legitimate contests. They are truly seeking creative and valuable entries. "
So you're saying that creating a logo isn't creative and valuable to a company?
at the end of the day this is still about choice - something that you're ignoring
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<tongueincheek>Yeah, that would be horrible if people spent their time on a creative endeavor with no real expectation of pay. I will immediately remove Linux, Firefox, Emacs, etc in favor of proprietary products so I can feel warm and fuzzy about everyone getting paid for everything they do.</tongueincheek>
People choose to participate in these contests choose to. They're not forced to, and designers with better economic options won't participate. Just like most of the people here look down on rentacoder, elance, etc because we have better options, while there are plenty of programmers who use those sites to get experience, a little cash, etc.
It's a business, and it gets customers, so it can't be all bad.
People choose to participate in these contests choose to. They're not forced to, and designers with better economic options won't participate. Just like most of the people here look down on rentacoder, elance, etc because we have better options, while there are plenty of programmers who use those sites to get experience, a little cash, etc.
It's a business, and it gets customers, so it can't be all bad.
I always use something similar to this: http://designoutpost.com
There's no limit on the amount of design revisions you can get - it's over when you're satisfied.
There's no limit on the amount of design revisions you can get - it's over when you're satisfied.
What happens if none of the entries are right for you?
I've never used the site, but I'm guessing since it's a contest - you pay for the best design out of the contest entries:
http://99designs.com/help/howitworks
http://99designs.com/help/howitworks
Wow. I love this site just to see all the creative minds out there at work. I got so excited I submitted my own design for the stackoverflow contest...
http://99designs.com/contests/6774
It's #180.
http://99designs.com/contests/6774
It's #180.
Some of these designs look really good...
Bookmarking now since the price looks to be pretty "right" too!
Bookmarking now since the price looks to be pretty "right" too!
yeah, Joel Spoelsky and Jeff Atwood thought so too: http://99designs.com/contests/6774
it's what brought me to the site
it's what brought me to the site
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This devalues a designers time and labor. This is HORRIBLE, and no designer or programmer should stand behind it.
I suppose that using a site like this allows you to get a lot of designs to choose from, but you can hire a designer (that you already know and trust) and get a bunch of mock-ups that way, too. And they will likely work until your satisfied.
My local design buddy charges $90/hr. If he keeps working until he's satisfied, then I pay for it. Plus if he gets one design stuck in his head, then it can be hard to get him to make a new design.
With this, you get the benefit of lots of people's input without an hourly "tic" as they work on it. You never know what a fresh perspective will give you!
With this, you get the benefit of lots of people's input without an hourly "tic" as they work on it. You never know what a fresh perspective will give you!
Alot like http://www.pixish.com, eh?
These sites are popping up all over the place: http://www.killerstartups.com/Social-Networking/eLogoContest...
Another site that does something similar is www.worth1000.com. The founders of that site are doing http://a.viary.com/ I believe.
I used Worth 1000 to run a logo contest, and it worked out well. http://www.worth1000.com/faq.asp#C40
the problem with using this site is that, your competition can only last 7 days.
http://99designs.com/contests/6884