Ask HN: Is this the right paid?
Hi,
I've been working for this company almost 4 years. Starting pay was 70K. I got raises a twice (about 2-2.5% each) so now I am at about 75K. I've been doing java for server side most my life. I've been also coding/leading .NET for thick client app for about 3 years (Office plugin and WinForm mostly). Always get the jobs done and hear good praises from management but I feel like the pay sucks. Now with base + bonus it's about 80 - 85K. Am I starting to wonder if I get ripped off for staying here and not asking for a big raise. Or is it the right pay here in Houston?
7 comments
Please don't take offense to this, but if "Is this the right paid?" is representative of your English fluency level, then that could be a significant factor limiting your salary potential. As an employer, I understand that not everyone speaks English as a first language, but you'd also have to understand that your lack of English skills limits your ability to communicate effectively. This reduces your efficiency when working in groups. Even worse, it reduces the efficiency of everyone in the group who must communicate with you.
I can't say what's normal in Houston, as I've only lived and worked in Los Angeles. Out here a developer with Java or .NET experience like you describe would easily start at $85k base at the companies I've worked for over the last 4 years. There would also be signing and annual bonuses and if you're good, significant raises each year.
Am I starting to wonder if I get ripped off for staying here and not asking for a big raise
I have always been baffled by this one. Usually at big companies there is a rule set by corporate that raises can only be 3-5% max in most cases. So even if you're good, the max you can expect on top of $70k is $3500 for your loyalty. If instead you had jumped to another company, you could have boosted your salary to $80 or $85k. And after you left, they would likely pay your replacement the same amount. So why don't companies just offer their loyal employees the higher salary (even if it exceeds the 3-5% threshold)?
The answer is, they do, but only if you threaten to leave. That's what I've done every year for the last 5 years. I never stop the job search, even once I land the job, and when I find a better job offer at the 1 year mark, I bring it to my current employer. Sometimes they offer to match the salary or offer better benefits, and I stay, other times I go with the other job that pays more or offers better benefits (sometimes the new job matches the counteroffer from my current employer).
In this way, I have increased my salary by an average of 19% per year since 2005, gone from no bonus to a very generous bonus package, increased vacation to 3 weeks, and negotiated telecommuting every Friday.
Am I starting to wonder if I get ripped off for staying here and not asking for a big raise
I have always been baffled by this one. Usually at big companies there is a rule set by corporate that raises can only be 3-5% max in most cases. So even if you're good, the max you can expect on top of $70k is $3500 for your loyalty. If instead you had jumped to another company, you could have boosted your salary to $80 or $85k. And after you left, they would likely pay your replacement the same amount. So why don't companies just offer their loyal employees the higher salary (even if it exceeds the 3-5% threshold)?
The answer is, they do, but only if you threaten to leave. That's what I've done every year for the last 5 years. I never stop the job search, even once I land the job, and when I find a better job offer at the 1 year mark, I bring it to my current employer. Sometimes they offer to match the salary or offer better benefits, and I stay, other times I go with the other job that pays more or offers better benefits (sometimes the new job matches the counteroffer from my current employer).
In this way, I have increased my salary by an average of 19% per year since 2005, gone from no bonus to a very generous bonus package, increased vacation to 3 weeks, and negotiated telecommuting every Friday.
Signing bonuses are basically non-existant in Houston. Annual bonuses are common but that depends highly on the industry. Both the financial and energy industries have taken a big hit in the past few years and they are the lifeblood of the Houston economy, so while layoffs are not that common, bonuses are way down. Not painting a gloom and doom scenario, just saying if you're here, expect all your payment to be in salary/benefits.
I'd add the only caveat is that bouncing around too much (like never holding a job down for more than a year, doesn't sound like you) can turn people off.
I've worked for 4 companies in 5 years (avg of 15 months per employer), and it doesn't seem to bother new employers. I can always spin it as "we finished our one year roadmap and I'm looking for a challenge that my current company can't provide." Besides, at each company I've worked for, the average lifespan of a developer seems to be about one year on average, 2 max.
If and when it does become a problem (i.e. interviewers start saying "this pattern looks disturbing"), the worst that happens is that it gets harder to get new job offers, and I stay at my current job a little longer, knowing that I got an average of 19% per year in pay increases while the average Joe (if he's lucky) got 5% per year, or in the OP's case 2.5% every other year.
If and when it does become a problem (i.e. interviewers start saying "this pattern looks disturbing"), the worst that happens is that it gets harder to get new job offers, and I stay at my current job a little longer, knowing that I got an average of 19% per year in pay increases while the average Joe (if he's lucky) got 5% per year, or in the OP's case 2.5% every other year.
I'm pretty sure Mark Suster would like to have a word with you... ;)
That was one of the only Mark Suster articles that I disagreed with. He made very valid points, but the truth is that since the IBM layoff of '93, there is no such thing as vertical loyalty anymore. The only loyalty that matters anymore is horizontal loyalty to your co-workers. Anyone can get the axe the moment a manager needs to meet quarterly or yearly earnings figures.
Someone with a high amount of reciprocated horizontal loyalty can be of much greater value (and greater danger) to companies. When you hire someone with great horizontal loyalty, you get to tap into their entire network of former co-workers and they can literally build out an entire new department in your company overnight because they can bring with them all the right people. Unfortunately, this works both ways as these people can also take them all from you overnight as well.
Someone with a high amount of reciprocated horizontal loyalty can be of much greater value (and greater danger) to companies. When you hire someone with great horizontal loyalty, you get to tap into their entire network of former co-workers and they can literally build out an entire new department in your company overnight because they can bring with them all the right people. Unfortunately, this works both ways as these people can also take them all from you overnight as well.
I've been an employer in the Austin area both at startups and a very big company. My gut tells me you're right at (or slightly below) the median range and probably right where you should be. Without knowing details, and assuming you're 7 years into your career.
Things you can do to improve your salary:
1. Get a new job.
2. Improve your written communication skills.
Regardless, the cost of living in Houston is below average for large metro areas so you're not doing too bad, IMO. To be frank, however, you're not on a "superstar" path here--if you stay where you're at you will never increase your salary to the top end of the accepted range for your experience level.
Things you can do to improve your salary:
1. Get a new job.
2. Improve your written communication skills.
Regardless, the cost of living in Houston is below average for large metro areas so you're not doing too bad, IMO. To be frank, however, you're not on a "superstar" path here--if you stay where you're at you will never increase your salary to the top end of the accepted range for your experience level.
You're not saying how much "most of your life" is - are you 20? 60? How much experience do you have with the technologies you're working with (and other related tech)? How much outside tech stuff do you do?
I don't know Houston specifically, but that doesn't sound too out of place for a server side java dev with 4 years of experience in the midwest.
A couple things bother me - 2 raises in 4 years. Also, dual Java and .Net work. As much as I'm a 'play in all camps' advocate, you may never get truly deep skills to justify higher pay (in future jobs) if you're doing jumping between tech.
Overall, it's not the worst pay I've ever heard of for someone with multiple years of experience in Java and .Net.
Indeed shows:
http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=.net&l1=houston&tm=1 = $85k http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=java&l1=houston&tm=1 = $91k
Obviously just a rough ballpark, but you're near average it seems.
I don't know Houston specifically, but that doesn't sound too out of place for a server side java dev with 4 years of experience in the midwest.
A couple things bother me - 2 raises in 4 years. Also, dual Java and .Net work. As much as I'm a 'play in all camps' advocate, you may never get truly deep skills to justify higher pay (in future jobs) if you're doing jumping between tech.
Overall, it's not the worst pay I've ever heard of for someone with multiple years of experience in Java and .Net.
Indeed shows:
http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=.net&l1=houston&tm=1 = $85k http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=java&l1=houston&tm=1 = $91k
Obviously just a rough ballpark, but you're near average it seems.
Sorry I missed it. I've been working as programmer since 2003 in my 20s.
About jumping tech I'm not really jumping around either. I really like both Java and .NET development. I've led numerous java server side projects. I could safely assume I'm above average in my java skillset.
'jumping around' wasn't me being derogatory - just how some employers would rather have someone with, say, 6 years of deep JEE experience rather than 6 years of mixed Java/.Net/etc experienced mixed together. For some positions, that makes sense, and for others, that requirement may not make sense.
So for someone has 10 years in C/C++ and 5 in Java, 3 in .NET you can't really tell them that they don't have deep experience in Java or .NET. They could just have 15 years in C/C++ plus 5 in Java and 3 in .NET for the total of 15 years of their development career. They have exposed to a wide range of technologies required to do their jobs.
What I mean is while doing Java for most my development career I am also doing .NET for production project! It's not like I do Java for 4 years then stop and develop .NET solely for 3 years.
Coupla points:
A) you only presented a select bit of info and asked if it was a decent salary
B) my experiences over the past 15-20 years have been that recruiters and HR people often overlook someone who doesn't have deep experience with one particular tech.
C) I would question someone who's counting 15 years of C experience while also counting the same time as doing .net. If you were doing the majority of those 3 years in .net, then say 3 years of .net, 5 of java and 7 of C. It's still a 15 year career, showing advancement, etc.
If you've got 15 years of progressive advancement with a variety of tech at that level, and you're concerned about money/pay, go freelance/consulting.
I'm not saying it's right or good, just what my impressions have been working with hiring managers, HR peeps and recruiters. In some cases diversity of experience is something they look for, and in others it's not.
A) you only presented a select bit of info and asked if it was a decent salary
B) my experiences over the past 15-20 years have been that recruiters and HR people often overlook someone who doesn't have deep experience with one particular tech.
C) I would question someone who's counting 15 years of C experience while also counting the same time as doing .net. If you were doing the majority of those 3 years in .net, then say 3 years of .net, 5 of java and 7 of C. It's still a 15 year career, showing advancement, etc.
If you've got 15 years of progressive advancement with a variety of tech at that level, and you're concerned about money/pay, go freelance/consulting.
I'm not saying it's right or good, just what my impressions have been working with hiring managers, HR peeps and recruiters. In some cases diversity of experience is something they look for, and in others it's not.
I'm guessing that your written communication ability may be hurting you, career-wise and (thus) salary-wise.
This stuff matters, even for geeks: communication is one of the big differences between being a cypher and a superstar.
This stuff matters, even for geeks: communication is one of the big differences between being a cypher and a superstar.
I'm in Houston and know about the pay here (as both a programmer and a hiring manager). I'd say you're comfortably paid but on the low end. It depends on what industry you are in as well. For example, in the medical industry that would be about right, but finances and energy can do better. Walk in and ask for a 15K raise. If they don't give it to you, you can get at least 10K more on the market right now.
Thanks I make sure will ask in my next review
If people were getting the deserved salary for their job/skills then we would all be multi-millionaires.
Sad but interesting comment. I remember seeing a post in HN awhile ago with a title "If you're a programmer, you're sitting on a goldmine."