IPhone 4: Who cares about pixel density? It's about interface definition.(blog.dustincurtis.com)
blog.dustincurtis.com
IPhone 4: Who cares about pixel density? It's about interface definition.
http://blog.dustincurtis.com/iphone-4-who-cares-about-pixel-density-its-ab-0
58 comments
Is it really true that Android has not been scaling interface definition as pixel density increases? It's been a while since I used my G1, but I thought that my notification bar was taking up the same amount of physical space on that device as it does on my N1, which would make a lie of that claim. The number of icons on the home screen has not changed either even though the N1 is much higher resolution.
Android does this. Even windows 7 has a configurable option for the size of all interface elements. (I recently got my mom a laptop with a small but very high resolution screen and was impressed with how well it handled it.) This article is a waste of space.
Since everyone seems to agree with you I find it odd that more people aren't flagging this article. I've said it many times, please stop up-voting all the Apple articles. They don't belong here and nearly every one of them is discovered to be crap or inaccurate. Even after someone points it out and gets up-voted for it the article still remains on the front page. Exercise your ability to clean up HN -- flag!
You must be new here.
Standard reply here: If you don't like it, don't vote it up.
Also: Please don't submit comments complaining that a submission is inappropriate for the site. If you think something is spam or offtopic, flag it by going to its page and clicking on the "flag" link. (Not all users will see this; there is a karma threshold.) If you flag something, please don't also comment that you did.
http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Standard reply here: If you don't like it, don't vote it up.
Also: Please don't submit comments complaining that a submission is inappropriate for the site. If you think something is spam or offtopic, flag it by going to its page and clicking on the "flag" link. (Not all users will see this; there is a karma threshold.) If you flag something, please don't also comment that you did.
http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
I didn't vote it up nor did I tell anyone that I flagged it. I did break the rule that we should not attempt to coerce others into flagging an article. Thanks for pointing that out, but no thanks for the inflammatory "you must be new here." It's difficult to respect someone being snarky for no reason.
While I seem to have negligently exaggerated on the exclusivity of the iPhone 4's resolution independence, the spirit of the article is still there and the points are still valid. iOS's implementation of resolution independence is the best and most standardized implementation that exists.
Not really. I don't know how much you know about how it actually works, but it's a much bigger mess than what you are describing in the article. OS X isn't really built from the ground up to be resolution independent, and linking to articles about quartz is kind of misleading, given that a lot of the graphics layer of iOS is completely different than the graphics layer of Mac OS X.
It may be easier on OS X than other platforms, I don't really know, but Mac OS X, despite a lot of talk over the last 4 years or so, remains not fully resolution independent, and the new iOS approach is a pretty big departure from what has been going on in Mac OS X.
It may be easier on OS X than other platforms, I don't really know, but Mac OS X, despite a lot of talk over the last 4 years or so, remains not fully resolution independent, and the new iOS approach is a pretty big departure from what has been going on in Mac OS X.
It's actually far harder on OS X than any modern Windows or Gnome system (don't know about KDE)
That's fine, but it doesn't save it from the fact that programmers and entrepreneurs don't need to be overly pre-occupied with information about Apple, its products, or its CEO all day long.
So you start with "Sure I was wrong", but then you head on to-
"iOS's implementation of resolution independence is the best and most standardized implementation that exists."
How do you know that? You don't even know that alternatives even exist, and here you're passing absolute judgment on them? Sorry, but you're woefully ill-equipped to make that statement.
"iOS's implementation of resolution independence is the best and most standardized implementation that exists."
How do you know that? You don't even know that alternatives even exist, and here you're passing absolute judgment on them? Sorry, but you're woefully ill-equipped to make that statement.
You've said Windows 7 scales reasonably well, and I know from experience that Gnome does too. The real question is: why doesn't desktop OS X scale better?
For the past three major releases of OS X I've been hoping for a move to resolution-independent "fixed-size" interfaces. That is, the interface will take up the same physical size on any screen (unless you choose to zoom it in or out). What's holding them back?
For the past three major releases of OS X I've been hoping for a move to resolution-independent "fixed-size" interfaces. That is, the interface will take up the same physical size on any screen (unless you choose to zoom it in or out). What's holding them back?
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Windows 7 does have some resolution independence, but it's very buggy and is very similar to desktop Mac OS X's sub-par implementation: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/e7/archive/2008/09/13/follow-up-on-h...
iOS 4 is the first OS to be completely resolution-independent. Even Android's attempt at resolution independence is not widely supported well by Android apps.
iOS 4 is the first OS to be completely resolution-independent. Even Android's attempt at resolution independence is not widely supported well by Android apps.
Android's "attempt" at resolution independence? It's been designed for it from the start, and as a result it's very very simple to work with as a developer. Stop spreading FUD.
Any Android app by a competent developer will look great from one resolution to the next. Now the iPhone can do that too, just with some growing pains as developers update their apps to provide higher-definiton resources.
It's great that the iPhone is progressing, but there's no need to adopt this "finally Apple gets it right!" stance and trash their opponents who have been for years doing pretty much the same things you tout as revolutionary and unprecedented.
Any Android app by a competent developer will look great from one resolution to the next. Now the iPhone can do that too, just with some growing pains as developers update their apps to provide higher-definiton resources.
It's great that the iPhone is progressing, but there's no need to adopt this "finally Apple gets it right!" stance and trash their opponents who have been for years doing pretty much the same things you tout as revolutionary and unprecedented.
It's really hard to say that iOS 4 is resolution independent. Right now, it pretty much just supports two fixed resolutions. And though the public information is pretty limited, what we do know about the API approach suggests that each additional resolution is going to require a fair amount of manual effort to support out of the box.
A lot of things only get noticed if/when Apple does them - high-density screens, multitasking etc - and then they become 'revolutionary' and 'magical'
Video calls is another one.
We have a very exciting announcement.... We've invented Copy,.. wait for it,... and paste! YES!!! You can now copy and paste text. This will revolutionize the industry.
To be fair they do have far better copy and paste than Android does.
I disagree.
When I had an iPhone I'd often accidentally select text when I didn't want to. It was not reliable what it was going to do. Is it going to scroll this time, or think I'm selecting text?
From what I've experienced of android in the last few weeks since I switched, I like it. It seems solid and reliable. There's no ambiguity there. I click 'select text', select some, then go some place else and paste it. It's easy.
I love how you hold your finger down some place to get a contextual menu... then just select paste. I'm not sure how you could make it any easier TBH.
So FWIW, I much prefer Android copy+paste.
When I had an iPhone I'd often accidentally select text when I didn't want to. It was not reliable what it was going to do. Is it going to scroll this time, or think I'm selecting text?
From what I've experienced of android in the last few weeks since I switched, I like it. It seems solid and reliable. There's no ambiguity there. I click 'select text', select some, then go some place else and paste it. It's easy.
I love how you hold your finger down some place to get a contextual menu... then just select paste. I'm not sure how you could make it any easier TBH.
So FWIW, I much prefer Android copy+paste.
> I'm not sure how you could make it any easier TBH.
They could make it work the same way on text that isn't editable rather than making me dig into a menu. That's just one idea.
They could make it work the same way on text that isn't editable rather than making me dig into a menu. That's just one idea.
Care to elaborate?
Not to mention that without multitasking copy/paste is much less useful.
Not to mention that without multitasking copy/paste is much less useful.
Copy and paste in iPhone works even if you quit the app you're pasting from and open a new one.
Copy and paste in iPhone is universal, or about as close to that as it needs to be. It works on essentially all text, and basically the same way in all places. In contrast Android copy and paste is much more selectively available. It is often hidden in menus that are different from application to application.
Copy and paste is one of those things that has to be done the same way everywhere to achieve its height of usability. My Nexus One does not live up to my standards for that.
Copy and paste in iPhone is universal, or about as close to that as it needs to be. It works on essentially all text, and basically the same way in all places. In contrast Android copy and paste is much more selectively available. It is often hidden in menus that are different from application to application.
Copy and paste is one of those things that has to be done the same way everywhere to achieve its height of usability. My Nexus One does not live up to my standards for that.
I switched from the iPhone to an Android phone too. And I disagree.
Copy and paste on Android works just the same, if not better. On Mobile Safari, for instance, I always select some text when I just want to scroll or zoom in some part of the page. This doesn't happen on my Android phone (but this could be just because Android waits a bit more before acknowledging the gesture).
Apple does a lot of choices that are aesthetics over functionality. A physical trackball/trackpad or arrow key pad, for instance, is invaluable when you need to move to some specific point in text. But Apple touchscreen devices just have the home button, to look more futuristic. And revolutionary.
Copy and paste on Android works just the same, if not better. On Mobile Safari, for instance, I always select some text when I just want to scroll or zoom in some part of the page. This doesn't happen on my Android phone (but this could be just because Android waits a bit more before acknowledging the gesture).
Apple does a lot of choices that are aesthetics over functionality. A physical trackball/trackpad or arrow key pad, for instance, is invaluable when you need to move to some specific point in text. But Apple touchscreen devices just have the home button, to look more futuristic. And revolutionary.
without multitasking copy/paste is much less useful
Really? I use copy/paste all the time on both my iPhone and iPad, and iOS 4 is still in the future.
Really? I use copy/paste all the time on both my iPhone and iPad, and iOS 4 is still in the future.
I don't think they've ever claimed to be the inventors of copy and paste on a mobile device. In fact, I remember them admitting being late to the party with that particular feature.
I think it's more the fact that they even bother to make an announcement about such a simple feature as copy+paste. They should be announcing cool awesome features no other device has got.
Here's some 'wow' features on my Nexus One which I didn't even know existed when I had my iPhone:
* Google translate - talk into the phone, select language, it speaks in french etc for you. Awesome. The speech recognition is truly amazing. * Google sky view - shows you stars etc * Google goggles - take pics of stuff, google tells you about them, prices etc etc * You can use an mp3 as a ringtone! * Over the air OS updates. No stupid iTunes stuff * mp3s, photos, etc all just saved on the card - removable storage * record videos, share via email, youtube, etc etc
Here's some 'wow' features on my Nexus One which I didn't even know existed when I had my iPhone:
* Google translate - talk into the phone, select language, it speaks in french etc for you. Awesome. The speech recognition is truly amazing. * Google sky view - shows you stars etc * Google goggles - take pics of stuff, google tells you about them, prices etc etc * You can use an mp3 as a ringtone! * Over the air OS updates. No stupid iTunes stuff * mp3s, photos, etc all just saved on the card - removable storage * record videos, share via email, youtube, etc etc
> "They should be announcing cool awesome features no other device has got."
God no. Apple has rarely ever introduced any features that is simply unheard of on other devices. That is not Apple's core strength: their strength is doing the same things everyone is already doing, but doing it better, making it more accessible and usable, and giving it sleekness and sexiness that it simply did not have before.
Apple is never at the very forefront of raw functionality, it's at the forefront of accessibility and usability.
Even now, it's fairly well acknowledged that Apple's copy/paste is the slickest/easiest implementation out there on a mobile device. They were late to the game (and admitted themselves as such) but they did it better than the incumbents.
I'm not sure where this Apple hate comes from, with the "hur hur hur Apple plays other people's inventions off like their own!" - this has rarely ever been the case.
God no. Apple has rarely ever introduced any features that is simply unheard of on other devices. That is not Apple's core strength: their strength is doing the same things everyone is already doing, but doing it better, making it more accessible and usable, and giving it sleekness and sexiness that it simply did not have before.
Apple is never at the very forefront of raw functionality, it's at the forefront of accessibility and usability.
Even now, it's fairly well acknowledged that Apple's copy/paste is the slickest/easiest implementation out there on a mobile device. They were late to the game (and admitted themselves as such) but they did it better than the incumbents.
I'm not sure where this Apple hate comes from, with the "hur hur hur Apple plays other people's inventions off like their own!" - this has rarely ever been the case.
"it's fairly well acknowledged that Apple's copy/paste is the slickest/easiest implementation out there on a mobile device."
I strongly disagree with that. Provide some evidence. For me, it has a false positive rate of about 50% - eg half the time I'm trying to scroll and the copy thing pops up.
Also I think that in the past Apple has innovated. The magnetic power supply connector on the Macbook is still one of my favorite features. That's a 'wow cool' feature other laptops don't have.
I strongly disagree with that. Provide some evidence. For me, it has a false positive rate of about 50% - eg half the time I'm trying to scroll and the copy thing pops up.
Also I think that in the past Apple has innovated. The magnetic power supply connector on the Macbook is still one of my favorite features. That's a 'wow cool' feature other laptops don't have.
>Is it really true that Android has not been scaling interface definition as pixel density increases?
Android has long been doing this (and it is hardly alone in doing this). To quote a Apple-friendly source that HN should like - http://daringfireball.net/linked/2010/04/19/android-dips
In other words the linked blog entry is basically "my world only exists of the iPhone, therefore as it it adapts I can only assume that it is completely novel".
Android has long been doing this (and it is hardly alone in doing this). To quote a Apple-friendly source that HN should like - http://daringfireball.net/linked/2010/04/19/android-dips
In other words the linked blog entry is basically "my world only exists of the iPhone, therefore as it it adapts I can only assume that it is completely novel".
Can't we just admit that the iPhone's 320x480 pixel display was getting kinda old and was due to an upgrade? Yes more pixels = things looks sharper. Other phones had better displays for a while, now the iPhone has a great one too. I think the display upgrade was kind of obvious for the iPhone4 and have been saying this since last year - it's cool and all but don't hype it into oblivion.
Other phones have had better resolution, but they have never increased the definition of the interface elements themselves. Those "better" screens just made everything smaller and provided more room for stuff.
-- Edit --
Apparently I was wrong on this point. Android does have some support for resolution independence, but most apps are not built for random pixel densities and therefor do not look stunning.
-- Edit --
Apparently I was wrong on this point. Android does have some support for resolution independence, but most apps are not built for random pixel densities and therefor do not look stunning.
Bullshit. Android does exactly the same thing.
This is the kind of lack of civility I'd like to see less of on Hacker News. Pointing out someone is wrong is probably enough. It feels good to shout bullshit at someone, but lowers the level of discourse and also makes it more acceptable for people to speak and behave trollishly.
This is a level of negligence that is beyond just being accidentally wrong. It would have taken less than 2 seconds for the author of the article to check whether Android has resolution independent ui. Instead they chose to mislead everyone who reads hackernews.
I really don't have any patience for the 5 minute write -> post -> submit cycle that a lot of the crap submissions on hackernews have, and I think it warrants some vitriol.
I really don't have any patience for the 5 minute write -> post -> submit cycle that a lot of the crap submissions on hackernews have, and I think it warrants some vitriol.
My current Windows Mobile (!!) phone has 4x the number of pixels of my previous WinMo phone and all the elements are the same physical size but rendered with more pixels. If Microsoft has done it, on their phones, you know it's as far from novel as you can get.
Please point to some concrete examples of this... Screenshots?
I care about pixel density, because you can't improve interface definition without increasing pixel density. I think the improved interface definition is implied when people talk about pixel density, hence Apple's term,"retina display." The resolution independence of the OS is nice, but even if you use rasterized UI elements, you can still have better interface definition on the new iPhone (you just have to create a new set of elements).
Personally, I think the pixel density doesn't really make that big of a difference. Who cares how slightly prettier the screen looks, most of the apps use overly large buttons and layouts anyway.
I think Apple couldn't come up with anything revolutionary so everyone is trying to find stuff about the new phone to talk about.
I think Apple couldn't come up with anything revolutionary so everyone is trying to find stuff about the new phone to talk about.
Exactly. Wake me up when they come out with a rollup screen. Or a watch that projects a screen into midair. Or glasses that have inbuilt augmented reality etc but look exactly like normal glasses.
Come on scientists!!! How hard can this stuff be???
Come on scientists!!! How hard can this stuff be???
Or a watch that projects a screen into midair.
The Samsung Beam isn't far off that - it's an Android phone that has a miniature projector in it. I think it might need to be my next phone actually: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTFY6hOVOzE
The Samsung Beam isn't far off that - it's an Android phone that has a miniature projector in it. I think it might need to be my next phone actually: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTFY6hOVOzE
Hah nice. But I'd bet the battery dies after much use :(
I would keep it plugged in and charging most of the day, add a bluetooth keyboard, and ditch my laptop :)
You can use it to render readable information that takes less screen space. The prime example has been the NYT home that's completely readable on the new iPhone and only the headlines are "resolvable" on the older ones.
I am not sure, however, how much one should push this. I bet I would only be able to read the small font of the NYT with a big magnifier.
I am not sure, however, how much one should push this. I bet I would only be able to read the small font of the NYT with a big magnifier.
While I believe Mac OS X has had some resolution independence since at least 10.5, I believe as of today it's still "not ready", and to say it's been there since the beginning is a bit of a misdirection. It's a work in progress.
Having said that, I'm really glad iPhone 4 is taking this direction of clarity over "you can shove more stuff on screen". Imagine if you really had all the pixels for your interface: trying to read or (more importantly) tap on something would be nearly impossible unless it was blown up anyway. Looking forward to new screens like these in all devices.
Having said that, I'm really glad iPhone 4 is taking this direction of clarity over "you can shove more stuff on screen". Imagine if you really had all the pixels for your interface: trying to read or (more importantly) tap on something would be nearly impossible unless it was blown up anyway. Looking forward to new screens like these in all devices.
You're right. Mac OS X has the underpinnings of true resolution independence, but it is as of right now not accessible to most users (you have to hack a plist to get it, and there are some very glaring problems, which explains why it's not enabled by default).
To claim that OS X is resolution independent is a bit disingenuous - for the lay user OS X less resolution independent than Win7.
To claim that OS X is resolution independent is a bit disingenuous - for the lay user OS X less resolution independent than Win7.
IIRC, the underpinnings of resolution independence were there since the time it was sold with black cubic computers. At that time, NeXT used DisplayPostscript. When Apple decided to base its new OS on NeXT technology, they replaced it with something more royalty-friendly (DPS licensing was quite expensive).
Solaris also used DPS and had a couple demos with it (last time I played with them was on Solaris 2.5). NeWS was also based on PostScript, something that, legend says, made writing apps for it very... uncomfortable.
Solaris also used DPS and had a couple demos with it (last time I played with them was on Solaris 2.5). NeWS was also based on PostScript, something that, legend says, made writing apps for it very... uncomfortable.
FWIW, on Windows WPF, Silverlight, and I think Direct2D were designed from the ground up to be resolution independent, with everything vector-based and all dimensions expressed in "virtual pixels", but a lot of programs still use GDI, which is pixel-based. So it looks like the situation is roughly the same on Windows and OSX: new APIs are resolution independent, but until their use becomes more widespread people won't benefit much.
Kinda sad considering OSX's history
I guess PalmOS automatically scaling UI elements when the screen size went from 160x160 to 320x320 (way back in the day) doesn't count in the author's world.
I'd love to see res indie in OS 10.7, but bitmaps will probably prevent that from happening, though http://www.wired.com/magazine/2010/02/ff_algorithm/2/ looks like a promising way of making bitmap scaling possible.
Nah, unfortunately that algorithm does not magically make bitmaps scale. The image example they gave is grossly misleading. It works well on certain types of sparse information in Fourier space.
Just a link found on Wikipedia... : http://developer.apple.com/legacy/mac/library/releasenotes/G...
Any technical explanation for why iPhone apps just used straightforward pixel doubling on the iPad, even for text elements? How can iPhone apps seamlessly take advantage of the extra pixels on iPhone 4 but not iPad?
On a related note, I think even iPhone 4 apps will still look a little bit odd on the iPad since your still taking a small, high-dpi interface and displaying it into a large, low-dpi device so it would still be worthwile to recode your interface.
Android, it seems, lets you provide resources and layouts for both large devices and high-dpi devices independently.
On a related note, I think even iPhone 4 apps will still look a little bit odd on the iPad since your still taking a small, high-dpi interface and displaying it into a large, low-dpi device so it would still be worthwile to recode your interface.
Android, it seems, lets you provide resources and layouts for both large devices and high-dpi devices independently.
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