Ask HN: Do you look down on non-entrepreneurs?
21 comments
For many of us self-employment / entrepreneurship is not a choice, it's not something we just want to do, it's something we have to do. There is no plan B. If we have to start 10 companies and fail 10 times, then so be it. Self-destructive as that may be.
So when somebody decides to get a regular job after all, I won't think less of him. I will wonder though... "maybe he wasn't one of us after all, maybe it was just a hobby, an experiment". Maybe you were just bicurious.
Having no respect for regular employees makes no sense, because you need them to turn your vision into reality. And employees with an entrepreneurial mindset are often worth their weight in gold. I don't know any real entrepreneurs who dismiss employees as mindless sheep.
(I realize I'm not speaking for everybody. Take what I write with a grain of salt.)
So when somebody decides to get a regular job after all, I won't think less of him. I will wonder though... "maybe he wasn't one of us after all, maybe it was just a hobby, an experiment". Maybe you were just bicurious.
Having no respect for regular employees makes no sense, because you need them to turn your vision into reality. And employees with an entrepreneurial mindset are often worth their weight in gold. I don't know any real entrepreneurs who dismiss employees as mindless sheep.
(I realize I'm not speaking for everybody. Take what I write with a grain of salt.)
That's actually really interesting, your line about not being "one of us." If you read my response to another comment below, that urge was never there for me. Going out on my own was a reasoned decision based on false assumptions and incomplete evidence about what would give me satisfaction. It wasn't a passion. It wasn't a drive. It wasn't a hunger or the thrill of the hunt.
I just didn't like my job.
My opinion is that none of my assumptions were uncommon ones and that the evidence I had at the time is also pretty typical, so my situation is a relatively common one (or will be as more people come to where I am now).
I think you've hit on something important about it being hardwired into your personality. That might be a good reality check for people just starting out. Have you been entrepreneurial your whole life? Do you have the necessary drive? What are your priorities? etc.
Instead, it often gets framed around intelligence, willpower, courage, and a lot of other stuff that no self-respecting person would readily admit not having. It almost shames you into sticking with it.
It would have been helpful early on if I'd encountered more warnings along the way that were genuine in encouraging me to consider quitting. I know that some commenters just fired up their caps-lock at the mere mention of quitting, but hear me out.
Some people think this stuff is for them, but it's not really. Getting smart and clear about where that distinction can be made and helping people figure it out sooner is good for everyone. It gives the bad-fit types (like me) a good clue to look elsewhere, and it gives the good-fit types (like you) a renewed sense of confidence despite discouragements and failure.
I just didn't like my job.
My opinion is that none of my assumptions were uncommon ones and that the evidence I had at the time is also pretty typical, so my situation is a relatively common one (or will be as more people come to where I am now).
I think you've hit on something important about it being hardwired into your personality. That might be a good reality check for people just starting out. Have you been entrepreneurial your whole life? Do you have the necessary drive? What are your priorities? etc.
Instead, it often gets framed around intelligence, willpower, courage, and a lot of other stuff that no self-respecting person would readily admit not having. It almost shames you into sticking with it.
It would have been helpful early on if I'd encountered more warnings along the way that were genuine in encouraging me to consider quitting. I know that some commenters just fired up their caps-lock at the mere mention of quitting, but hear me out.
Some people think this stuff is for them, but it's not really. Getting smart and clear about where that distinction can be made and helping people figure it out sooner is good for everyone. It gives the bad-fit types (like me) a good clue to look elsewhere, and it gives the good-fit types (like you) a renewed sense of confidence despite discouragements and failure.
fyi 160 pounds of gold is almost 3 million dollars. just saying.
I had no idea. Food for thought: Google's average revenue per employee is $1.2 million/yr.
I guess I'm worth about 60 pounds more.
Protip: look for heavy, entrepeneurial employees.
Protip: look for heavy, entrepeneurial employees.
Perhaps the people you're talking to consider it a critical judgment on their own plans and prospects. I think anyone who starts a business appreciates how difficult it is and realizes it doesn't work out all the time.
In a way, they can't accept the idea that it's okay for you to quit—because it means that it could be okay for them to quit, too. Some people are only motivated once they've convinced themselves they have no other alternatives (or that they've at least found the local optimum in their configuration space.) Saying that a regular job is just as valid a path challenges all the cognitive biases and rationalizations they need to carry themselves through what can be a very stressful way of life.
I don't look down on anyone. Everyone makes their own choices in life to move closer to the goal of happiness. Sometimes that involves running your own business. Sometimes it involves working for someone else's business. Sometimes it may not involve working at all.
The world is FULL of articles about finding jobs. Most people are just looking for a J.O.B.
Right or wrong, your entrepreneur friends probably see you as a quitter. They probably see your going back to work as a failure, and naturally, your friends don't want to see you fail.
Think about it though. You probably set out on your own to be a billionaire, top the of hill, a titan of industry.
Why wouldn't your friends still want that for you?
If this is the image you've portrayed to other entrepreneurs for a while, don't blame them for wondering why you no longer believe in the goals you've expressed to them.
Right or wrong, your entrepreneur friends probably see you as a quitter. They probably see your going back to work as a failure, and naturally, your friends don't want to see you fail.
Think about it though. You probably set out on your own to be a billionaire, top the of hill, a titan of industry.
Why wouldn't your friends still want that for you?
If this is the image you've portrayed to other entrepreneurs for a while, don't blame them for wondering why you no longer believe in the goals you've expressed to them.
I want to address your point that the world is full of articles about finding jobs and also your point about why people initially set out into entrepreneurship.
As I've observed, it often begins like this:
1) This job sucks. 2) I need to work for myself.
In the start-up culture and commentary (and apparently among Gen-Y more broadly too), that idea gets a lot of airtime.
It's a natural and intoxicating thought pattern. You see that the leaders are making more money, you realize you're just as bright as they are, you reason that your efforts could be better spent being your own boss.
Without much effort, you soon stumble into a thousand thousand blogs pumping that idea full of adrenaline for you. Eventually, something you read ends with a challenge and a call to action. You take the leap.
Having a ton of articles about resumes or getting an interview or how to earn a promotion doesn't make an impact on what I'm describing.
It's having more measured, more realistic portraits of what entrepreneurship means, what success rates are, and pointing to other alternatives that address the "My job sucks," part but refrain from rushing to "Start a business." And importantly, for these to hit home at the right time for the right people, it'd be good for these messages to appear not in the Sunday Paper or Yahoo finance but interspersed alongside the rebel, hacker, lifestyle design, no-rules stuff we see.
I've seen some of that around, and in fact, I owe a great debt of gratitude to those people and those writings for helping my crystallize my frustrations with entrepreneurship as it really is vs how I expected it to be starting out and until relatively recently.
So, no, I did not set out to be a titan. I set out to find satisfying work. I mistakenly identified my dissatisfaction as stemming from working for someone else (again, as is natural to do), and I set out to blaze my own trail to make happier work.
Along the way, I wasn't interested in articles about finding just any old J.O.B.--I was looking for articles that captured the ethos of frustration and disappointment I'd experienced in my early jobs.
Where I found that, almost inevitably would follow advice or even a sort of cultural force that I should seek self-employment of some kind.
What I will be trying to add with my voice going forward is that dissatisfaction with work, especially early on, is a complicated thing. Self-employment is not a panacea. In fact, for many people who are not suited for it, self-employment can be a painful and/or expensive experiment that delays discovering a better fit company or career as an employee.
As I've observed, it often begins like this:
1) This job sucks. 2) I need to work for myself.
In the start-up culture and commentary (and apparently among Gen-Y more broadly too), that idea gets a lot of airtime.
It's a natural and intoxicating thought pattern. You see that the leaders are making more money, you realize you're just as bright as they are, you reason that your efforts could be better spent being your own boss.
Without much effort, you soon stumble into a thousand thousand blogs pumping that idea full of adrenaline for you. Eventually, something you read ends with a challenge and a call to action. You take the leap.
Having a ton of articles about resumes or getting an interview or how to earn a promotion doesn't make an impact on what I'm describing.
It's having more measured, more realistic portraits of what entrepreneurship means, what success rates are, and pointing to other alternatives that address the "My job sucks," part but refrain from rushing to "Start a business." And importantly, for these to hit home at the right time for the right people, it'd be good for these messages to appear not in the Sunday Paper or Yahoo finance but interspersed alongside the rebel, hacker, lifestyle design, no-rules stuff we see.
I've seen some of that around, and in fact, I owe a great debt of gratitude to those people and those writings for helping my crystallize my frustrations with entrepreneurship as it really is vs how I expected it to be starting out and until relatively recently.
So, no, I did not set out to be a titan. I set out to find satisfying work. I mistakenly identified my dissatisfaction as stemming from working for someone else (again, as is natural to do), and I set out to blaze my own trail to make happier work.
Along the way, I wasn't interested in articles about finding just any old J.O.B.--I was looking for articles that captured the ethos of frustration and disappointment I'd experienced in my early jobs.
Where I found that, almost inevitably would follow advice or even a sort of cultural force that I should seek self-employment of some kind.
What I will be trying to add with my voice going forward is that dissatisfaction with work, especially early on, is a complicated thing. Self-employment is not a panacea. In fact, for many people who are not suited for it, self-employment can be a painful and/or expensive experiment that delays discovering a better fit company or career as an employee.
Think of it this way : what is your social contribution (what do you give to other) with your work/time ? Do you think it is worth the effort ?
I think entrepreneurs are a bit more selfish : their prime motive is their own good, the social good is just a consequence. I don't think it is bad per se, ut I recognize I don't like it much.
Another point of view is : our society is based on employment (and other stuff, that is). Those who create employment are therefore seen as more useful, better.
But again, is giving employment to people to make cigarettes or junk food a real benefit to the society ?
I think entrepreneurs are a bit more selfish : their prime motive is their own good, the social good is just a consequence. I don't think it is bad per se, ut I recognize I don't like it much.
Another point of view is : our society is based on employment (and other stuff, that is). Those who create employment are therefore seen as more useful, better.
But again, is giving employment to people to make cigarettes or junk food a real benefit to the society ?
I don't look down on non-entrepreneurs at all. However, I do feel like I have less in common with them. It's a lot like any other interest, passion, or activity. People tend to gravitate and associate more with people that share commonalities, probably because you are naturally more interested in what they have to say/do. Couple that with the fact that entrepreneurs tend to be unusually self-involved (almost a necessary evil of entrepreneurship), and I think you end up with the obvious disinterest you've been seeing.
Honestly, yes.
Sometimes I look down on them, but sometimes I'm not. This is also the case for most entrepreneurs. Of course, an entrepreneur won't look down on his/her own employees.
The only factor that influences my view is what kind of employment the resigned entrepreneur is switching to. If it's a great job, then I would respect him/her.
It's a false perception to compare entrepreneur to employee. We should compare "What are we contributing to the society?", instead of merely "How do we contribute to the society?".
Sometimes I look down on them, but sometimes I'm not. This is also the case for most entrepreneurs. Of course, an entrepreneur won't look down on his/her own employees.
The only factor that influences my view is what kind of employment the resigned entrepreneur is switching to. If it's a great job, then I would respect him/her.
It's a false perception to compare entrepreneur to employee. We should compare "What are we contributing to the society?", instead of merely "How do we contribute to the society?".
Maybe they just want a comfortable life, a wife, and to vacation once or twice a year... Why is that something to be looked down on?
We should consider what profession we are in.
I'm a software developer, and the opportunity for me to gain more and more luxurious or easy opportunities are slim. No matter which path I will take (entrepreneur or employment).
If you're an MBA or PhD from an Ivy League school, you maybe able to do that. But, what if you're just some dirt in your employer's shoe?
If you're an MBA or PhD from an Ivy League school, you maybe able to do that. But, what if you're just some dirt in your employer's shoe?
I disagree... There are people with blue collar jobs in mines (my step dad for instance) who has a very comfortable life. Two kids, gets to vacation regularly, works hard, skis every weekend.
There are many people in the world who do not aspire to have EVERYTHING, and really just want as I said, a good life, a wife, maybe a cold beer when they get home from work.
There are many people in the world who do not aspire to have EVERYTHING, and really just want as I said, a good life, a wife, maybe a cold beer when they get home from work.
I have trouble relating, on some deep levels, to people of all kinds who haven't yet taken their destiny into their own hands. But it is not as if entrepreneurs are the only people who are in charge of their lives.
you're surrounded by statistical outliers. are you based in san francisco by any chance?
the good spirit is to follow your own calling, so do whatever you want. don't mind the others.
also, a non-entrepreneur movement sounds like a good idea. it would benefit both sides.
also, i look straight at people.
the good spirit is to follow your own calling, so do whatever you want. don't mind the others.
also, a non-entrepreneur movement sounds like a good idea. it would benefit both sides.
also, i look straight at people.
Do you look down on non-entrepreneurs?
No.
Entrepreneurship isn't some static thing, and there are many kinds of entrepreneurs. Our appetite for risk, our values, priorities and desires all evolve over time.
Some entrepreneurs start out as employees and discover their entrepreneurial streak later in life; others start out as entrepreneurs and become employees (by acquisition, opportunity etc.); some shift from academia to entrepreneurship and back again; others are serial entrepreneurs. And so it goes...
People do great things from all sorts of roles. The disappointment and disinterest may just be naivety or a lack of maturity: I wonder if your entrepreneurial buddies look down on Hennessy for example?
No.
Entrepreneurship isn't some static thing, and there are many kinds of entrepreneurs. Our appetite for risk, our values, priorities and desires all evolve over time.
Some entrepreneurs start out as employees and discover their entrepreneurial streak later in life; others start out as entrepreneurs and become employees (by acquisition, opportunity etc.); some shift from academia to entrepreneurship and back again; others are serial entrepreneurs. And so it goes...
People do great things from all sorts of roles. The disappointment and disinterest may just be naivety or a lack of maturity: I wonder if your entrepreneurial buddies look down on Hennessy for example?
If you're just doing it to keep your head down and live a comfortable existence, then yes, a little bit.
But if you're doing something that you find satisfying, challenging, fascinating, or worthwhile, then I would never dare to look down on you.
For me, the real point of entrepreneurship is to take control of your own destiny. If you're doing what you really want to be doing, then you're already there! Just remember to live beneath your means and build a nice cash cushion, so you can keep control of your destiny as well.
But if you're doing something that you find satisfying, challenging, fascinating, or worthwhile, then I would never dare to look down on you.
For me, the real point of entrepreneurship is to take control of your own destiny. If you're doing what you really want to be doing, then you're already there! Just remember to live beneath your means and build a nice cash cushion, so you can keep control of your destiny as well.
My guess is that they're disappointed about losing a fellow entrepreneur rather than disappointed in you or your choice. That's how I'd probably feel if I were in their shoes.
I think it'd be fun to ask non-entrepreneurs what they think of us (I'm sure most would be equally as tolerant, but I'd like to hear their impressions). Anecdotally, I've been pitied before for working the startup lifestyle -- running one of course means you're working/thinking/stressing it nearly every waking hour. There's certainly a quality of life tradeoff.
One example: I know I spend less time out with my friends - I'm actually a pretty AWOL friend, frankly. I don't understand or participate in the routine of, say, getting drinks at happy hour, because even when I'm with my childhood pals (fortunately, they've excused my aloofness and welcome me back seamlessly whenever I'm back in maryland) at some point in the night, a few beers in, I'm thinking about the work I'm going to do when I get home.
But that's just because, like most entrepreneurial folk, it's so invigorating. It's feel criminal to enjoy working so much, but I've got friends who wouldn't dare trade their happy hours and weekends and routines for my lifestyle -- and that's just fine with me.
One example: I know I spend less time out with my friends - I'm actually a pretty AWOL friend, frankly. I don't understand or participate in the routine of, say, getting drinks at happy hour, because even when I'm with my childhood pals (fortunately, they've excused my aloofness and welcome me back seamlessly whenever I'm back in maryland) at some point in the night, a few beers in, I'm thinking about the work I'm going to do when I get home.
But that's just because, like most entrepreneurial folk, it's so invigorating. It's feel criminal to enjoy working so much, but I've got friends who wouldn't dare trade their happy hours and weekends and routines for my lifestyle -- and that's just fine with me.
For me, it's not a matter of looking down. I don't think people should look down on other people in general. That said, I do feel like I have less in common with people with J.O.B.s and no ambition. I feel like I can relate more with other entrepreneurs and thus spend more time with them.
I think ultimately if you want to be successful at whatever it is you want to do, you have to create your own reality distortion field. You surround yourself with people doing what you want to do so you can learn from them, be inspired by them, and feel a sense that you are not alone in that pursuit.
In my case if I hang out with J.O.B. people, all they want to talk about is the latest video game, movie, tv show or sports game, none of which interests me. And me talking business and startup to them sounds like greek and their eyes glaze.
I think ultimately if you want to be successful at whatever it is you want to do, you have to create your own reality distortion field. You surround yourself with people doing what you want to do so you can learn from them, be inspired by them, and feel a sense that you are not alone in that pursuit.
In my case if I hang out with J.O.B. people, all they want to talk about is the latest video game, movie, tv show or sports game, none of which interests me. And me talking business and startup to them sounds like greek and their eyes glaze.
"If you're smart enough, not a sheep" - sounds like a sociopath from the sociopath/clueless/loser model of organizations:
http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-o...
http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-o...
Just do both.
Being an entrepreneur and employee do not have to be mutually exclusive. You can simply work on creating prototypes of new product ideas in your free time.
If I had a buddy doing that, I would still love talking with him to pick his brain.
Being an entrepreneur and employee do not have to be mutually exclusive. You can simply work on creating prototypes of new product ideas in your free time.
If I had a buddy doing that, I would still love talking with him to pick his brain.
"I'm getting an unspoken but almost palpable sense of disappointment and disinterest"
The disappointment might be due to your entrepreneur friends believing you were great at being an entrepreneur, and that it's a waste to the community if you go back to being employed? I know I sometimes feel that way when I see a potentially great entrepreneur quit; but that doesn't change the fact that getting a job can still be the right thing for you. And personally, I wouldn't worry about those people who display disinterest - they were probably only interested in the fellow entrepreneur, not the person.
The disappointment might be due to your entrepreneur friends believing you were great at being an entrepreneur, and that it's a waste to the community if you go back to being employed? I know I sometimes feel that way when I see a potentially great entrepreneur quit; but that doesn't change the fact that getting a job can still be the right thing for you. And personally, I wouldn't worry about those people who display disinterest - they were probably only interested in the fellow entrepreneur, not the person.
When friends of mine get married or get in serious relationships, I am happy for them. But I am also (selfishly) disappointed, because that means less time hanging out with me and sharing life experiences.
I see this in a similar way -- I perceive many employed friends as being tied up time-wise by the combination of work and (for many) family. Often, they fall off my radar because they wouldn't be able to help out with interesting projects due to exhaustion from work or due to work-related restrictions.
I see this in a similar way -- I perceive many employed friends as being tied up time-wise by the combination of work and (for many) family. Often, they fall off my radar because they wouldn't be able to help out with interesting projects due to exhaustion from work or due to work-related restrictions.
Imagine that everybody becomes a Blogger or an iPhone apps developer. I know it's a great job, to stay in front of a screen for 10 hours a day and pull insane money, just from typing in your keyboard and moving a little device called mouse.
But who will work for us? Who will build those roads? Deliver merchandise, teach your 5 year child... ??? Everyone has a job, we can't all become doctors, we can't all become entrepreneurs; it's a balance and everyone decide what to become and how.
But who will work for us? Who will build those roads? Deliver merchandise, teach your 5 year child... ??? Everyone has a job, we can't all become doctors, we can't all become entrepreneurs; it's a balance and everyone decide what to become and how.
Most people have a strong investment in their worldview, and sometimes have difficulty empathizing with people who don't embrace the same view with the same intensity. There is no one path to fulfillment or happiness that is right for everyone, but it can be hard to remember that when someone you consider a peer makes a choice you would never make.
Are you proud of your neighbor? If not, entrepreneurs will not succeed.
What I was expecting was for them to ask about what I'm thinking about doing, what I've learned about myself, why I'm going to make that move. Instead, I'm getting an unspoken but almost palpable sense of disappointment and disinterest. It's the equivalent of telling someone you've converted to a wacko religion or that you've decided to betray your country or something.
I'm comfortable and confident in my decision, whatever it ultimately is, but it's got me wondering if some of the rah-rah about start-up culture and entrepreneurship hasn't sunk in a little too deeply to the point where you are either entrepreneurial or a waste of space.
You see bloggers of all shapes and sizes and of every level of experience casually disparage those who are merely employed, especially if they work at large companies or, worse still, academia or the government.
My sense for a long time now has been that there is an imbalanced representation of the realities, challenges, and suitability for entrepreneurship in the broader web. There's the sense of, "If you're smart enough, not a sheep, and hard working, you should be building your own business," but that's neither realistic nor even desirable for most people if they are able to get a clear picture of all of their options and what the trade-offs really are like.
Should there be more articles about why NOT to be an entrepreneur or about how to find a great fit with a standard job?
For everything we read about start-ups, it's amazing there's anyone left to work for them.