Ask YC: Should I quit programming to pursue the arts?
26 comments
I went through the exact same thing 2 years ago. I was so sick of sitting in a cubicle and wanted to try stand-up comedy. Every one I knew encouraged me, so like a typical hacker, I set up a project to get educated and find out what it would take. Either a career change, or just part-time to break up the monotony.
Here's what I learned:
The reality is far different from what it appears to be. Instead of nights full of laughter and fun, it would probably be monotonous nights of the same thing over and over, except for 10% of the money I make now, if that.
Most stand-up comics barely scrape by, spend a lot of time in their cars, a lot of late nights in the bar, and eat a lot of fast food. They do the same 5, 10, 30, or 60 minute routine night after night, while they work their way up the ladder from "opener" to "feature" to "headliner". Every one of them plays a bad room once or twice a week. Many of them spend half their time looking for work. And less than 1% ever really "make it" and less than 1% of those "make it big", no matter how good they are.
No thanks.
Then I redirected my thinking to figure out how to take what I currently did and make it something I'd love. Pretty straight forward solution to that: my startup. And I'll save the laughs for friend and family get togethers.
Don't mean to scare you. You SHOULD do what you love. But you should also get a clear idea of what it'll be like before you flick the switch. Sometimes, the grass is NOT greener on the other side.
Here's what I learned:
The reality is far different from what it appears to be. Instead of nights full of laughter and fun, it would probably be monotonous nights of the same thing over and over, except for 10% of the money I make now, if that.
Most stand-up comics barely scrape by, spend a lot of time in their cars, a lot of late nights in the bar, and eat a lot of fast food. They do the same 5, 10, 30, or 60 minute routine night after night, while they work their way up the ladder from "opener" to "feature" to "headliner". Every one of them plays a bad room once or twice a week. Many of them spend half their time looking for work. And less than 1% ever really "make it" and less than 1% of those "make it big", no matter how good they are.
No thanks.
Then I redirected my thinking to figure out how to take what I currently did and make it something I'd love. Pretty straight forward solution to that: my startup. And I'll save the laughs for friend and family get togethers.
Don't mean to scare you. You SHOULD do what you love. But you should also get a clear idea of what it'll be like before you flick the switch. Sometimes, the grass is NOT greener on the other side.
Thanks for the insight, and thanks everybody else for their comments and feedback. Despite the dangers and risks, I'm actually going to try and pursue acting as a part-time hobby on the weekends and stuff (I already have an audition for an independent film next week).
Again, thanks for helping me getting my thoughts and doubts cleared up!
Again, thanks for helping me getting my thoughts and doubts cleared up!
Here's a take from an ex-classical musician, now software engineer:
Making a living in the arts is excruciating. Classical musicians today tend to live in an unstable patchwork of part-time gigs, private teaching, side jobs lacking health insurance, etc... and that's if they're lucky. Only a few manage to obtain full time jobs. As others have noted, the day to day life of a musician isn't as glamorous as it might seem. I loved Beethoven's 5th as a child; but after playing it for the N-teenth time, I began to see how a career in music could grow tedious.
When I decided to go into CS it was because I realized that the people who had successful music careers tended to be a.) either so insanely talented that it was obvious they'd be catapulted into the inner circle (eg, full time gigs) fairly easily or b.) so monomaniacal in their dedication to their craft that they simply had no other choice. Anything other than being a musician would have meant having to curl up and die.
Since I was neither of those, I decided to turn to something that'd I'd been quite good at in high school (math/science) and rather enjoyed, and I would describe myself as much happier now. Vastly happier, and financially secure. Music is still a part of my life as a fulfilling hobby.
Whatever you decide, I'd highly recommend reading Daniel Gilbert's "Stumbling on Happiness," before making any irrevocable decisions. Gilbert is a psychologist whose research suggests that people are generally extremely bad at predicting the future and figuring out what actually will make them happy. It's a cautionary tale for anyone who might think "If only I could do X I'd be happy..." Follow that with "How to Want What You Have," by Timothy Ray Miller, and you have a prescription for happiness.
Making a living in the arts is excruciating. Classical musicians today tend to live in an unstable patchwork of part-time gigs, private teaching, side jobs lacking health insurance, etc... and that's if they're lucky. Only a few manage to obtain full time jobs. As others have noted, the day to day life of a musician isn't as glamorous as it might seem. I loved Beethoven's 5th as a child; but after playing it for the N-teenth time, I began to see how a career in music could grow tedious.
When I decided to go into CS it was because I realized that the people who had successful music careers tended to be a.) either so insanely talented that it was obvious they'd be catapulted into the inner circle (eg, full time gigs) fairly easily or b.) so monomaniacal in their dedication to their craft that they simply had no other choice. Anything other than being a musician would have meant having to curl up and die.
Since I was neither of those, I decided to turn to something that'd I'd been quite good at in high school (math/science) and rather enjoyed, and I would describe myself as much happier now. Vastly happier, and financially secure. Music is still a part of my life as a fulfilling hobby.
Whatever you decide, I'd highly recommend reading Daniel Gilbert's "Stumbling on Happiness," before making any irrevocable decisions. Gilbert is a psychologist whose research suggests that people are generally extremely bad at predicting the future and figuring out what actually will make them happy. It's a cautionary tale for anyone who might think "If only I could do X I'd be happy..." Follow that with "How to Want What You Have," by Timothy Ray Miller, and you have a prescription for happiness.
A violinist I know once gave me the following advice: "If you love music, find yourself a job which doesn't involve playing music. If you become a professional musician, you'll find that you have to take every gig which comes along, just to make ends meet; you'll find yourself saying 'dear god, not Beethoven's fifth symphony AGAIN'; and ultimately you'll end up not loving music any more."
I figure that doing a startup is an ideal solution: It "solves the money problem" (as PG puts it), after which point you'll have the liberty to engage in the arts -- without ever being in the position where it becomes a job which you're forced into doing every day because otherwise you'll starve.
I figure that doing a startup is an ideal solution: It "solves the money problem" (as PG puts it), after which point you'll have the liberty to engage in the arts -- without ever being in the position where it becomes a job which you're forced into doing every day because otherwise you'll starve.
> "If you love music, find yourself a job which doesn't involve playing music."
In my experience, this is just as true of programming.
In my experience, this is just as true of programming.
Anything in life is what you make of it. There is beauty in almost everything. It is how we respond to something that defines what it becomes for us...
What do you call a professional sax player? -- Homeless.
[deleted]
The first point is sadly true - probably more a comment on human nature than on the arts, per se. "When your hobby becomes your job, you have to find a new hobby."
This seems to be the most practical solution right now, however i'm worried about the time crunch that working at a startup will have on me.
If you don't mind living over seas, you can have a pretty high standard of living for much less. Based on my off the cuff calculations, I think a person with a decent programming job could save enough in 5 or so years (with frugal living) that they could live overseas off the interest. If true, this is much more guaranteed path to financial freedom than a startup. Just an option to consider.
This is what I've found so far along with the mentioned calculations: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=122341
This is what I've found so far along with the mentioned calculations: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=122341
I like having a job, though, cuz then I don't feel guilty about not spending all my time saving the world. I'd love to, but I have work to do!
That's a pretty interesting notion, actually. I'd never do it, but it's nice to have the option.
If you are determined enough you shouldn't let other people's opinions stop you from doing what you enjoy. This includes your parent's opinions.
I recommend doing something you love even if you make just enough to keep you from starving instead of doing something you hate just because it pays well. But make sure you really love it first. Chances are you'll enjoy it less than you imagine (but maybe still enjoy it enough to justify leaving your job).
The guys on the stage look like they're having a lot of fun, but maybe they only do so because it's their job to look like they're having fun. After a while a job is a job and it can start to suck simply because you HAVE to do it.
Maybe you can try out your artistic side in your spare time for a while and see how you really feel about it.
I recommend doing something you love even if you make just enough to keep you from starving instead of doing something you hate just because it pays well. But make sure you really love it first. Chances are you'll enjoy it less than you imagine (but maybe still enjoy it enough to justify leaving your job).
The guys on the stage look like they're having a lot of fun, but maybe they only do so because it's their job to look like they're having fun. After a while a job is a job and it can start to suck simply because you HAVE to do it.
Maybe you can try out your artistic side in your spare time for a while and see how you really feel about it.
I've gone back and forth between working in the arts and working in software, and now work at the line between the two.
The thing is, usually making ends meet working in the arts isn't very sexy. I taught bass, played at business parties, and did studio work for a while. It paid well, but I was teaching 14 year olds to play Limp Bizket songs and playing cheesy bass lines for TV commercials. There were definitely moments of coolness, but most of it isn't.
As a day job, programming was more engaging and laid back, and has a more flexible schedule. The stuff that I really liked in music I could do anyway.
Being in the Blue Man Group would probably suck. You'd have next to no artistic freedom, do the same stuff over and over again, and all of your evenings where you'd want to meet with other artists would be taken up.
The thing is, usually making ends meet working in the arts isn't very sexy. I taught bass, played at business parties, and did studio work for a while. It paid well, but I was teaching 14 year olds to play Limp Bizket songs and playing cheesy bass lines for TV commercials. There were definitely moments of coolness, but most of it isn't.
As a day job, programming was more engaging and laid back, and has a more flexible schedule. The stuff that I really liked in music I could do anyway.
Being in the Blue Man Group would probably suck. You'd have next to no artistic freedom, do the same stuff over and over again, and all of your evenings where you'd want to meet with other artists would be taken up.
Good post from wheels of the "been there, done that" variety (actually I hate that expression).
Chris: Let's go with green tonight! Phil: Chris, we've been over this before. Chris (mopey): But I like green. C'mon, if the fans really love us, they'll be okay with that. Phil (exasperated): Chris, we're Blue Man Group--we wear f'ing blue. Does Beyonce wake up one morning and say "I think I'll wear a nice, tasteful navy blue dress today with flowers"? No, she puts on the sl'ttiest thing she's got, goes out there and shakes that a'', because she's Beyonce and that's what she does. And that's why we're not gonna go out there and be some kind of Green Man Group.
Chris: Let's go with green tonight! Phil: Chris, we've been over this before. Chris (mopey): But I like green. C'mon, if the fans really love us, they'll be okay with that. Phil (exasperated): Chris, we're Blue Man Group--we wear f'ing blue. Does Beyonce wake up one morning and say "I think I'll wear a nice, tasteful navy blue dress today with flowers"? No, she puts on the sl'ttiest thing she's got, goes out there and shakes that a'', because she's Beyonce and that's what she does. And that's why we're not gonna go out there and be some kind of Green Man Group.
I don't necessarily want to join the blue man group, but have rather have the creative freedom of something as subjective as acting and yet still being able to provide a need in peoples lives (entertainment).
Some people are wired to do art. They have to to be happy. If you're one of those people, by all means, do art. But it sounds like what you're debating here is not doing art vs. not doing art, but taking art as a career path.
All that I'm saying is I don't expect you'd gain much by swapping out a tech day job for an arts day (or night) job. It's still going to be the thing that's paying the bills to help you support what you're really into.
We're awake about 112 hours a week. Even with a full time job that leaves more hours than most people can be productive in arts endeavors.
This isn't, "Well, goofing around on stage is fine as a hobby..." blather. Go full on. Set goals. Get in a community. Produce stuff and find a place to exhibit it.
But if the guys in the Blue Man Group (or similar) are doing artistic stuff they're really excited about, it probably isn't the Blue Man Group. :-)
All that I'm saying is I don't expect you'd gain much by swapping out a tech day job for an arts day (or night) job. It's still going to be the thing that's paying the bills to help you support what you're really into.
We're awake about 112 hours a week. Even with a full time job that leaves more hours than most people can be productive in arts endeavors.
This isn't, "Well, goofing around on stage is fine as a hobby..." blather. Go full on. Set goals. Get in a community. Produce stuff and find a place to exhibit it.
But if the guys in the Blue Man Group (or similar) are doing artistic stuff they're really excited about, it probably isn't the Blue Man Group. :-)
You should definitely pursue what you love most, but by being practical you can avoid a lot of the obstacles that are bound to pop up when you take up this pursuit. I think you should stick with the programming, get a day job as a programmer, and try to pursue the arts (acting, painting, sculpting, whatever you like most) in your spare time. Maybe join a part time theater group or make paintings in your spare time and show them off on the Web or elsewhere.
By taking this route you make sure you have enough to pay the bills. Then maybe some day you'll make enough from your artistic pursuits to quit your day job and pursue the secondary career full time. At that point it'd probably be much easier to break it to your parents.
And I don't think you should make any impulsive moves, because what you love today, you might get bored with in a few years. Who knows, maybe in 5 years you'll love programming more, or you'll develop a taste for architecture, or you'll want to be a doctor. Or you may end up being a career artist. In any event you should follow your dreams... but minimize risk as much as possible by using a practical strategy.
By taking this route you make sure you have enough to pay the bills. Then maybe some day you'll make enough from your artistic pursuits to quit your day job and pursue the secondary career full time. At that point it'd probably be much easier to break it to your parents.
And I don't think you should make any impulsive moves, because what you love today, you might get bored with in a few years. Who knows, maybe in 5 years you'll love programming more, or you'll develop a taste for architecture, or you'll want to be a doctor. Or you may end up being a career artist. In any event you should follow your dreams... but minimize risk as much as possible by using a practical strategy.
Any possibility of a crossover career? Something where the medium of composition is the computer? Something along the lines of computer animation, computer-generated music, etc. Also, web design involves a lot of aesthetic design skill including background art, typography, etc.
I thought about this, and I have ventured into graphic design stuff before - however the use of the computer as a medium just doesn't compare to a canvas or stage as one.
Are you sure you're not overestimating how easily you could land a lucrative job like the guys on the stage? Lots of occupations have very attractive jobs at the top of the field while the masses at the bottom do much less attractive, lower paying work.
Funny what you say about your parents. Mine will be disappointed to know that I'm "just" doing programming.
Rest of your life in front of the computer? What will happen when you get too old for your performance arts career? You won't just be able to sit around doing nothing while you rake in the cash as with a programming/engineering/science career.
And are you sure that doing the same performance over and over wouldn't get extremely dull?
Also, don't underestimate how much a lack of money can cause problems once you find your girl.
Funny what you say about your parents. Mine will be disappointed to know that I'm "just" doing programming.
Rest of your life in front of the computer? What will happen when you get too old for your performance arts career? You won't just be able to sit around doing nothing while you rake in the cash as with a programming/engineering/science career.
And are you sure that doing the same performance over and over wouldn't get extremely dull?
Also, don't underestimate how much a lack of money can cause problems once you find your girl.
If you haven't already, please read this: http://www.gapingvoid.com/Moveable_Type/archives/000932.html
good read, thanks for the article!
The most successful transition I ever saw from one to the other was a gentleman who started out as an electrical engineer and used the money he made very wisely to launch and systematically market his photography. It took about three years, but he was already a very good hobby photographer - in other words, his work was of professional quality. He got very familiar with the market - decided to go with gallery marketing. Then he was very careful about which galleries he went with. (They like to 'discover' someone, so if you've already been with a lesser gallery, it's a big strike against you. This absolutely kills a lot of artists who never find this out.) Then he spent several big grand creating his marketing materials, and carefully targeted his market - the right gallery owners. When he launched, he had figured out his prices - for a limited edition there would be graduated pricing - if you get in early, then you pay less.
He's also very sensitive to the larger market - he knows that people don't like to have stark pictures of despair in their living room. It's not his favorite picture to take, but that's his brand. This enables him to work maybe ten days out of the year. He lives in a penthouse apartment overlooking the Pacific. He's a darn good photographer, but there are many as good who never hit it big. The reason people hit it big in the arts (just like anything) is marketing and developing a well-crafted brand over time. He went for where the big money was - the galleries who deal with very upscale clients - and he never deviated from that brand. Being in tech means that you can save up enough to make the transition right and jump in at a higher market. Take the time to evaluate several different markets before you decide - figure out your best approach and then don't be stingy funding it. You can be very successful.
He's also very sensitive to the larger market - he knows that people don't like to have stark pictures of despair in their living room. It's not his favorite picture to take, but that's his brand. This enables him to work maybe ten days out of the year. He lives in a penthouse apartment overlooking the Pacific. He's a darn good photographer, but there are many as good who never hit it big. The reason people hit it big in the arts (just like anything) is marketing and developing a well-crafted brand over time. He went for where the big money was - the galleries who deal with very upscale clients - and he never deviated from that brand. Being in tech means that you can save up enough to make the transition right and jump in at a higher market. Take the time to evaluate several different markets before you decide - figure out your best approach and then don't be stingy funding it. You can be very successful.
"... i'm a self-taught programmer. I've taken a job as a developer for a start-up in Waltham after college ... but i don't think i'm going to be happy in the long run ... Then it occurred to me that since i've been going to business school and programming, i've practically lost all touch with my artistic side (I used to paint, draw, act, etc..) and that I really regret it ..."
make things that artists like :)
The trick is don't think and/or. There are factors that will work against you though. I noticed after switching from the visual side of my brain used in fine-arts to the predominantly textual side used in programming, it pretty much killed my drawing instinct. The instictive need to draw and scribble. I've only just lately tried to balance the two. Not easy since each require different ways of thinking & looking at things.
make things that artists like :)
The trick is don't think and/or. There are factors that will work against you though. I noticed after switching from the visual side of my brain used in fine-arts to the predominantly textual side used in programming, it pretty much killed my drawing instinct. The instictive need to draw and scribble. I've only just lately tried to balance the two. Not easy since each require different ways of thinking & looking at things.
make things that artists like :)
For what it's worth, I think this is what PG tried to do... Viaweb started out as a service to allow art galleries to get on the web:
http://www.paulgraham.com/bronze.html
For what it's worth, I think this is what PG tried to do... Viaweb started out as a service to allow art galleries to get on the web:
http://www.paulgraham.com/bronze.html
"... make things that artists like :)
For what it's worth, I think this is what PG tried to do... Viaweb started out as a service to allow art galleries to get on the web ..."
I think your on the right trail. But pg didn't target artists as much as 'gallery owners'. [0] For good reason he took the (right) choice, of money or starving artists. But it didn't work. What I'm getting at is targeting "creatives" [1] instead of salespeople. Is this the reason why Artix couldn't "make what art salespeople wanted"? I didn't really have an example in mind until I read this morning on Fuzzwich. [2] Powerful products can created by Startups that straddle 2 logs at a time. In this case an understanding of technology and animation.
[0] The "Artix Phase" is a favourite of mine ~ http://www.paulgraham.com/bronze.html
It reads a lot like Cpt. Kirk in Star Trek:
[2] "Fuzzwich (YC summer 07) launches a new look and previews Animator" ~ http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=130008
For what it's worth, I think this is what PG tried to do... Viaweb started out as a service to allow art galleries to get on the web ..."
I think your on the right trail. But pg didn't target artists as much as 'gallery owners'. [0] For good reason he took the (right) choice, of money or starving artists. But it didn't work. What I'm getting at is targeting "creatives" [1] instead of salespeople. Is this the reason why Artix couldn't "make what art salespeople wanted"? I didn't really have an example in mind until I read this morning on Fuzzwich. [2] Powerful products can created by Startups that straddle 2 logs at a time. In this case an understanding of technology and animation.
[0] The "Artix Phase" is a favourite of mine ~ http://www.paulgraham.com/bronze.html
It reads a lot like Cpt. Kirk in Star Trek:
SPOCK: Captain. There is a high probability
this encounter going to be similiar
in nature to the 'Artix Phase'.
KIRK: I was thinking the same thing.
Hmm, the "Artix Phase". I haven't
heard that since "Starfleet Academy".
Never got off the ground to crash & burn!
[2] "Fuzzwich (YC summer 07) launches a new look and previews Animator" ~ http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=130008
It sounds like you've already made your mind up. You want to pursue the arts, and are going to try and do that. By all means, you're young. Life is short.
There are many of us that tried to make a go of it in the arts scene, but ended up going in to technical fields. I think that there is a correlation.
I've had a day job as an ER nurse for 15 years. I knew it was not what I wanted to do for a living, but it paid the bills. I, too thought that vocational happiness was to be found pursuing the arts, so, I studied art formally and on my own in a lot of different forms: interior design, sculpture, painting, photography, computer graphics, video editing, animation, 3D modeling and animation.
Any one of those things can be done to pay the bills, and there are career paths for each one of those. But, at some point, I found that I had to trade my passion to someone else for cash. And, doing that was impossible for me. I wasn't able to stay sane and edit the industrial video about the history of SmallCo's dialysis machines. I wasn't willing to create the logo like the client wanted, because I knew that what the client wanted was aesthetically wrong and ugly. I wasn't willing to put in 16 hours x 6 days a weeks just to be a visual effects artist in Hollywood.
It's one of the reasons that Hackers and Painters made so much sense to me. There is a creativity in programming, and in hacking that is very close to the creativity that one gets while painting or sculpting. Especially when the hacking is done on your own business.
It's the reason that I'm not going to work for someone else as a programmer, too. Why should I create value for someone else, when I can create value for myself? Why should I spend 8-10 hours a day at a desk so someone else's company can increase in value, when I can spend 8-10 hours a day on my own company making something that people want.
As an entrepreneur, I get the creative control. I get to be the decider. I set my own hours. I financially benefit from my own work. And, I get to do a bunch of different things. That's why I'm going to be a founder instead of an artist. It's a lot of the same benefits and risks, and a lot greater upside. At the same time, had I never knocked on the arts door, I would have never ended up being an entrepreneur.
There are many of us that tried to make a go of it in the arts scene, but ended up going in to technical fields. I think that there is a correlation.
I've had a day job as an ER nurse for 15 years. I knew it was not what I wanted to do for a living, but it paid the bills. I, too thought that vocational happiness was to be found pursuing the arts, so, I studied art formally and on my own in a lot of different forms: interior design, sculpture, painting, photography, computer graphics, video editing, animation, 3D modeling and animation.
Any one of those things can be done to pay the bills, and there are career paths for each one of those. But, at some point, I found that I had to trade my passion to someone else for cash. And, doing that was impossible for me. I wasn't able to stay sane and edit the industrial video about the history of SmallCo's dialysis machines. I wasn't willing to create the logo like the client wanted, because I knew that what the client wanted was aesthetically wrong and ugly. I wasn't willing to put in 16 hours x 6 days a weeks just to be a visual effects artist in Hollywood.
It's one of the reasons that Hackers and Painters made so much sense to me. There is a creativity in programming, and in hacking that is very close to the creativity that one gets while painting or sculpting. Especially when the hacking is done on your own business.
It's the reason that I'm not going to work for someone else as a programmer, too. Why should I create value for someone else, when I can create value for myself? Why should I spend 8-10 hours a day at a desk so someone else's company can increase in value, when I can spend 8-10 hours a day on my own company making something that people want.
As an entrepreneur, I get the creative control. I get to be the decider. I set my own hours. I financially benefit from my own work. And, I get to do a bunch of different things. That's why I'm going to be a founder instead of an artist. It's a lot of the same benefits and risks, and a lot greater upside. At the same time, had I never knocked on the arts door, I would have never ended up being an entrepreneur.
There's a lot of good food for thought here. I can empathise; I had similar thoughts in college that I wouldn't stick it. I love programming, sometimes even the Blub code I work on day to day, however I don't like sitting at a desk all day, so I'm thinking of a career change. Something in sports or perhaps physiotherapy, things like that.
Anyway, I will say that when it comes to making a go out of arts as a career, I'm watching a lot of my friends and acquaintances struggle hard. They're art students, musicians, actors and comedians, circus performers (my housemate; the place is littered with stilts and facepaint and whatnot) and despite some fantastic dedication to it they struggle to make a go of it. All work day jobs, some of the more talented and dedicated are in low paid arts-related jobs - administration, promotion etc. Most, now pushing into their late twenties and early thirties are starting to think about settling more permanently into the day jobs. Of course, north-west Ireland isn't Boston, so YMMV...
As to having your cake etc, do you do any such activities currently? If you're currently performing in plays etc or gathering the work needed for a gallery show and you can deal with the grind that entails, then I'd be more inclined to say go for it. If not, do so; I'd guess the best barometer of whether you'll have made the right decision is if you can cheerfully dedicate a few evenings a week over the course of the months to years it can take to get something into production.
Anyway, I will say that when it comes to making a go out of arts as a career, I'm watching a lot of my friends and acquaintances struggle hard. They're art students, musicians, actors and comedians, circus performers (my housemate; the place is littered with stilts and facepaint and whatnot) and despite some fantastic dedication to it they struggle to make a go of it. All work day jobs, some of the more talented and dedicated are in low paid arts-related jobs - administration, promotion etc. Most, now pushing into their late twenties and early thirties are starting to think about settling more permanently into the day jobs. Of course, north-west Ireland isn't Boston, so YMMV...
As to having your cake etc, do you do any such activities currently? If you're currently performing in plays etc or gathering the work needed for a gallery show and you can deal with the grind that entails, then I'd be more inclined to say go for it. If not, do so; I'd guess the best barometer of whether you'll have made the right decision is if you can cheerfully dedicate a few evenings a week over the course of the months to years it can take to get something into production.
What do you think about artistic flash games, for example http://amanita-design.net/samorost-1/
I've recently stumbled across the "casual games" scene, and I think there are really interesting things going on. I always thought of games as art, but some of these games take it to a new level. Another example: http://www.10gnomes.com/02.html
I'd say there is more artistic motivation than traditional gameplay in that game (photography).
I've recently stumbled across the "casual games" scene, and I think there are really interesting things going on. I always thought of games as art, but some of these games take it to a new level. Another example: http://www.10gnomes.com/02.html
I'd say there is more artistic motivation than traditional gameplay in that game (photography).
You can be an artist and a excellent programmer without problem. Check this website. http://www.cybergrain.com/ . He is both an artist and an excellent programmer and a real person that I know. He even wrote an small essay to defend dualist because we have problem to imagine a person to be computer scientist and artist at the same time.
Two things.
First, doing a startup is a really enjoyable form of technical work. You're working on what you want to, and that is fun in itself. It's also multi-disciplinary and thus you get variety and some quite arty bits of work. For example, How can we ask a question that will get us honest, interesting, succinct information about a user's personality?
Second, if your passion can't be your job (for whatever reason), make fucking sure you indulge your passion in your free time. I found that working a job that sucked hard to be an excellent motivation for making full use of my spare time by throwing myself into playing in a band, political activism, squash and programming my own stuff. If you don't get similarly motivated, perhaps forcing yourself to work on your passion will help.
First, doing a startup is a really enjoyable form of technical work. You're working on what you want to, and that is fun in itself. It's also multi-disciplinary and thus you get variety and some quite arty bits of work. For example, How can we ask a question that will get us honest, interesting, succinct information about a user's personality?
Second, if your passion can't be your job (for whatever reason), make fucking sure you indulge your passion in your free time. I found that working a job that sucked hard to be an excellent motivation for making full use of my spare time by throwing myself into playing in a band, political activism, squash and programming my own stuff. If you don't get similarly motivated, perhaps forcing yourself to work on your passion will help.
This American Life did a great segment on some dancers from one of the Riverdance companies, and how their job was coveted (it was incredibly stable income for a dancer) but also tedious and repetitive. Every show, they were basically mailing in their performances, full of faked energy and enthusiasm.
One week, they purchased a large number of lottery tickets as a group, and found that their excitement for winning the lottery (and therefore quitting Riverdance) was more than their excitement for the job itself.
Here's the link -- act two is the one that you want:
http://thislife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?episode=306
One week, they purchased a large number of lottery tickets as a group, and found that their excitement for winning the lottery (and therefore quitting Riverdance) was more than their excitement for the job itself.
Here's the link -- act two is the one that you want:
http://thislife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?episode=306
One more thing: my advice? Decompose your needs. Break down the big, intractable life problem into the smallest questions that you can, and answer each question as honestly as you can:
Do you want to be "creative"? What does that mean to you?
Do you need to be an actor/dancer/singer/whatever to be creative? Why?
Do you like programming? When?
Do you like where you currently work? When?
If you were unsuccessful as an actor/dancer/singer/whatever, would you be happy? Why?
If you were in your ideal programming job, would you be happy? Why?
etc.
If you do this carefully, you might be surprised by what you find. Not all of our needs are self-consistent or rational.
Do you want to be "creative"? What does that mean to you?
Do you need to be an actor/dancer/singer/whatever to be creative? Why?
Do you like programming? When?
Do you like where you currently work? When?
If you were unsuccessful as an actor/dancer/singer/whatever, would you be happy? Why?
If you were in your ideal programming job, would you be happy? Why?
etc.
If you do this carefully, you might be surprised by what you find. Not all of our needs are self-consistent or rational.
That's a really good idea - although it may take a while to come up with all the questions, and probably a while longer to answer them. Thanks for the breakdown strategy though.
Do it.
Based on your question, you are looking at the visual arts. So, what kind of art are you going to do? do you want to sell work in galleries? If so, do it. but don't commit half way. Be prolific. Don't paint for 4 years and then give up. Because, unless your paintings are Rembrandts (in which case why give up?) your paintings will be worthless in the long run to whomever bought them... or to their children. Antiques roadshow price... $50.00, not $50000.00
So consider at least the people you will interact with, and the contribution you make back to the world. Paintings accrue value because of the longevity and quality of the artist. This is true for the other arts as well. Compete against the world, but more importantly compete against your friends. It raises your skills and qualities. Follow your own vision, because that is the great difference between you and the other guys.
It's other artists that decide what is good art. not galleries or collectors or anyone else. so hang out with your peers. only good things come of it.
Be serious and have fun.
In the great scheme of things, it really doesn't matter what you do, except to you.
Reading these comments, I am reminded by Yoda's sage wisdom. "Do or do not. There is no 'Try'".
For the record, you can do both. It's just harder. Because you should never use one interest as an excuse for poor performance in another.
So do it. It is an entrepreneurial life. Work your ass off and you can become a great success. it is true in any field. The real success comes from those who do the work. And it's a startup world, just like Web 2.0. You can be too far ahead of the curve, or yesterdays news, or provide products the market really likes or miss completely, or come in as a poor second. The art world like silicon valley is very forgiving especially to people who keep on bringing new work for people to experience.
Not many people remember when the Blue Man group were crazy street performers in New York. They worked hard and adapted or tried different things and are now a big success. It's just like a startup. work hard; be adaptive; see what works; do your thing. Sounds kind of familiar doesn't it?
Based on your question, you are looking at the visual arts. So, what kind of art are you going to do? do you want to sell work in galleries? If so, do it. but don't commit half way. Be prolific. Don't paint for 4 years and then give up. Because, unless your paintings are Rembrandts (in which case why give up?) your paintings will be worthless in the long run to whomever bought them... or to their children. Antiques roadshow price... $50.00, not $50000.00
So consider at least the people you will interact with, and the contribution you make back to the world. Paintings accrue value because of the longevity and quality of the artist. This is true for the other arts as well. Compete against the world, but more importantly compete against your friends. It raises your skills and qualities. Follow your own vision, because that is the great difference between you and the other guys.
It's other artists that decide what is good art. not galleries or collectors or anyone else. so hang out with your peers. only good things come of it.
Be serious and have fun.
In the great scheme of things, it really doesn't matter what you do, except to you.
Reading these comments, I am reminded by Yoda's sage wisdom. "Do or do not. There is no 'Try'".
For the record, you can do both. It's just harder. Because you should never use one interest as an excuse for poor performance in another.
So do it. It is an entrepreneurial life. Work your ass off and you can become a great success. it is true in any field. The real success comes from those who do the work. And it's a startup world, just like Web 2.0. You can be too far ahead of the curve, or yesterdays news, or provide products the market really likes or miss completely, or come in as a poor second. The art world like silicon valley is very forgiving especially to people who keep on bringing new work for people to experience.
Not many people remember when the Blue Man group were crazy street performers in New York. They worked hard and adapted or tried different things and are now a big success. It's just like a startup. work hard; be adaptive; see what works; do your thing. Sounds kind of familiar doesn't it?
I met a dramaturge at a party about ten years ago who told me that the Blue Man Group's original investors were groups of Japanese families that mortgaged their homes and life savings to get BMG bootstrapped and started, before their successful show, before the Intel commercials, before the franchise that is BMG today.
I had a similar realization in my early twenties which led me into an artistic field. For the next four years it became an obsession which took up most of my time. Then reality kicked in and I found myself broke and unemployed and had to give it up. One of the biggest failures in my life so far. Just when I started to get a hang of it too.
One advice I would give is try to have some sort of income from somewhere else, so you can finance your artistic pursuits, because most likely you won't be making any real money from it.
Anyway, sorry for the sob story. Had to vent.
One advice I would give is try to have some sort of income from somewhere else, so you can finance your artistic pursuits, because most likely you won't be making any real money from it.
Anyway, sorry for the sob story. Had to vent.
To me it sounds like you really want to do something artistic. I'd say don't think about it too much. Just do it. It might not work out but you're fortunate to live in the western civilization (I'm assuming) so you won't starve if things go wrong and it's likely that you can always get another programming job. I think you have a duty to yourself to try this out. Just imagine what you'll wish you would have done in 30 - 40 years time.
That's the same way i feel now. Programming is essentially free and i'll always be able to pursue it no matter what my age is, however art could be limiting depending on the medium you choose - plus you only get one life to take a shot at it.
Your job does not necessarily make you happy but your salary from your job may let you do the things that make you happy.
Credit for this piece of wisdom goes to a very smart kid who I knew when he was wee tall - delivered as part of his HS Valedictorian address.
Credit for this piece of wisdom goes to a very smart kid who I knew when he was wee tall - delivered as part of his HS Valedictorian address.
Try finding things that you can do. Out of those, try finding things that you want to do do. Out of those, try finding things that you really really want to do.
-Happier(book, by Tal Ben Sahar)
This way you can zoom in on the problem. HTH.
This way you can zoom in on the problem. HTH.
Please don't judge yourself against the Blue Man Group; that's like a performance artist judging himself against Larry and Sergey.
Anyway you should do things you like to do. And don't be afraid of making a mistake.
What, in concrete terms, do you mean by "pursuing the arts"?
What i mean is to get back on the stage and pursue acting, or start painting seriously and try and get my work in a gallery. In the end, I enjoy entertaining people and creating things (which is why I got into programming in the first place).
My main concern is my loss creativity over the past couple of years due to my career path - and somehow i'm looking for a way to regain that and make it my primary passion in life.
My main concern is my loss creativity over the past couple of years due to my career path - and somehow i'm looking for a way to regain that and make it my primary passion in life.
> make it my primary passion in life
In my experience, if you already had a primary passion you wouldn't care if it offered a "career path". At a minimum you'd be trying to reconcile it with a "real job" and would eventually stumble onto a crossroads.
If you're just unhappy tro to desocialize. Change your environment, your media and your perspective. At an extreme you could move to another country and try learning the language while getting by. Switching cities or jobs is also good, as is picking up a new hobby and meeting new people.
Do your best to kill the expectations that other people place on you and live for yourself.
In my experience, if you already had a primary passion you wouldn't care if it offered a "career path". At a minimum you'd be trying to reconcile it with a "real job" and would eventually stumble onto a crossroads.
If you're just unhappy tro to desocialize. Change your environment, your media and your perspective. At an extreme you could move to another country and try learning the language while getting by. Switching cities or jobs is also good, as is picking up a new hobby and meeting new people.
Do your best to kill the expectations that other people place on you and live for yourself.
>At an extreme you could move to another country and try learning the language while getting by.
Have you done this?
I'm seriously considering this in the near term/mid term
Have you done this?
I'm seriously considering this in the near term/mid term
Spent several years in Beijing. Now I'm working in Shanghai with a foreign start-up and 我的中文也厉害得不得了！
Moving abroad is great. The problem is that unless you really work at becoming fluent in the local language your career options are limited. For most people travelling helps them realize what they want without providing much help getting there.
Moving abroad is great. The problem is that unless you really work at becoming fluent in the local language your career options are limited. For most people travelling helps them realize what they want without providing much help getting there.
Congratulations! I can imagine you get a lot of respect as a Westerner who respects Chinese culture enough to learn Mandarin. Now, I imagine your prospects for your career/geographical locations pretty broad.
I think I'll start with Spanish. I'm thinking of 3 months of immersion language training in a Latin American country.
I think I'll start with Spanish. I'm thinking of 3 months of immersion language training in a Latin American country.
First ask yourself these questions:
Do you have any responsibilities?
Are you young enough such that you can go into something more stable if things don't "work out"?
If your answers are "no" and "yes" then go for it. You'll be better off for having done something different. It might set you back some years if you were to pursue your career like everybody else (in case it doesn't work out as planned), but when you're stuck in a cubicle looking back you will know what it's worth.
I hope you make it doing whatever you are aiming for so that you don't have to look back - and that brings up another point: don't look back if you choose to do something risky. It's do or die!!!
YAY!
----------------------------
Now for the real answer to your question:
If you need to ask somebody if you should or should not, then you probably shouldn't.
Until you believe in yourself to be able to make it then don't commit. The fact that you are asking is telling me that there is some self-doubt, and this will be your biggest obstacle. When things seem darkest, your mettle must be such that you stick it out and see it to the end, no matter what the results are to be.
First overcome your self doubt and then see if you need to ask anybody your question. The choice to do one thing over another must come from within yourself, not from the advice of others.
I'd rather be brutally honest with you instead of sticking to the line above my real answer...if you had the courage to go for it, then you wouldn't be worried about "breaking the news" to your parents because there would be no question in your mind about your success. Yes, I'm being harsh, but this is NOTHING compared to what you might encounter out in the wild, or from your parents... ;) If you believe in yourself, then nothing I could say would change your mind.
I'm not advising you to be pig-headed or stubborn but rather seek a state of mind called "self-confidence". Your question is indicative of the fact that self-confidence to pursue this direction is lacking. I would rather you reflect upon this fact instead of responding because I'll only tell you in response: you don't need to justify yourself to anybody but yourself.
Read "The Unfettered Mind" by Takuan Soho. If you can understand "immovable wisdom" then you have taken the first step in a long journey towards becoming more confident with what you want to do.
Being at peace with the outcome of your action (both good and bad) is a totally separate issue!
EDIT: First step to becoming more confident: capitalize the 'I' in any sentence that refers to yourself. It speaks volumes when you capitalize other proper nouns but don't do the same for yourself!
Do you have any responsibilities?
Are you young enough such that you can go into something more stable if things don't "work out"?
If your answers are "no" and "yes" then go for it. You'll be better off for having done something different. It might set you back some years if you were to pursue your career like everybody else (in case it doesn't work out as planned), but when you're stuck in a cubicle looking back you will know what it's worth.
I hope you make it doing whatever you are aiming for so that you don't have to look back - and that brings up another point: don't look back if you choose to do something risky. It's do or die!!!
YAY!
----------------------------
Now for the real answer to your question:
If you need to ask somebody if you should or should not, then you probably shouldn't.
Until you believe in yourself to be able to make it then don't commit. The fact that you are asking is telling me that there is some self-doubt, and this will be your biggest obstacle. When things seem darkest, your mettle must be such that you stick it out and see it to the end, no matter what the results are to be.
First overcome your self doubt and then see if you need to ask anybody your question. The choice to do one thing over another must come from within yourself, not from the advice of others.
I'd rather be brutally honest with you instead of sticking to the line above my real answer...if you had the courage to go for it, then you wouldn't be worried about "breaking the news" to your parents because there would be no question in your mind about your success. Yes, I'm being harsh, but this is NOTHING compared to what you might encounter out in the wild, or from your parents... ;) If you believe in yourself, then nothing I could say would change your mind.
I'm not advising you to be pig-headed or stubborn but rather seek a state of mind called "self-confidence". Your question is indicative of the fact that self-confidence to pursue this direction is lacking. I would rather you reflect upon this fact instead of responding because I'll only tell you in response: you don't need to justify yourself to anybody but yourself.
Read "The Unfettered Mind" by Takuan Soho. If you can understand "immovable wisdom" then you have taken the first step in a long journey towards becoming more confident with what you want to do.
Being at peace with the outcome of your action (both good and bad) is a totally separate issue!
EDIT: First step to becoming more confident: capitalize the 'I' in any sentence that refers to yourself. It speaks volumes when you capitalize other proper nouns but don't do the same for yourself!
Last week i was at the Blue Man Group show, and a thought came to me that these guys on stage were probably making about as much as I will once I graduate, but (to me) they're having so much fun doing it (throwing paint around, making people laugh, and whatnot). Then it occurred to me that since i've been going to business school and programming, i've practically lost all touch with my artistic side (I used to paint, draw, act, etc..) and that I really regret it.
I've come to the conclusion that i don't want to spend the rest of my life in front of a computer and what will make really happy will be to pursue my passion in arts and entertainment. However i don't want to give up my bread and butter (programming) because I consider myself to be decent at it and it will pay the rent.
Is there some way I can have my cake and eat it too? And if i do, how do i break the news to my parents? (they are super conservative and expected me to become a doctor, lawyer, or something along those veins).
PG how did you manage to fit it all in your life without losing grasp of either one?