Ask HN: Given the cost of living, why would a developer live in Silicon Valley?
11 comments
- The #Opportunities is staggering.
People are quite comfortable living in places (yes, rent is shit) where there are multiple opportunities so that when one doesn't work out, they can move to the next without uprooting their family/social system. Silicon Valley allows for that in a 30-40 mile radius.
- Number of likeminded folks as @dhogan pointed out. The sheer volume of meet ups, etc. is incredible.
So many startups, so many cutting edge tech companies and a lot of driven folks. You can bounce around as much as you like in the valley. Companies tend to home themselves here, since there is an easier talent pool to tap into. I am not saying other places don't have that, but the volume of such folks + opportunities is very high!
People are quite comfortable living in places (yes, rent is shit) where there are multiple opportunities so that when one doesn't work out, they can move to the next without uprooting their family/social system. Silicon Valley allows for that in a 30-40 mile radius.
- Number of likeminded folks as @dhogan pointed out. The sheer volume of meet ups, etc. is incredible.
So many startups, so many cutting edge tech companies and a lot of driven folks. You can bounce around as much as you like in the valley. Companies tend to home themselves here, since there is an easier talent pool to tap into. I am not saying other places don't have that, but the volume of such folks + opportunities is very high!
Because you might make it big? Seriously though, I just left Seattle after 7 years to move to Madison, WI, for a very interesting opportunity to work on some cool virtualization and orchestration tech. My current company is great, but it's largely a coincidence that it's based in Madison, WI (most of the leadership is on the West Coast). While I'm grateful to be working on something cool right now, I'm painfully aware that there isn't anything else in Madison after my time with my current company is up. Hopefully that's a while, but, software being software, the nature of engineering is very project based. We work in an exceptionally stable industry, but the companies within that industry are not stable at all. I'm definitely getting a strong sense of why someone would want to live near a tech epicenter now that I've left one.
Many programmers start their career by trying to optimize their income to achieve independence , rather than optimise their living expenses. this is mostly because the market allows it
it is very rare for someone to intentionally decrease their income for a new employment opportunity , and the highest paying jobs precede your next highest paying jobs.
in the tech industry you are often rewarded for changing your job regularly. if you subscribe to this model, and the bubble doesn't burst , than this can be a very profitable approach to life.
it is very rare for someone to intentionally decrease their income for a new employment opportunity , and the highest paying jobs precede your next highest paying jobs.
in the tech industry you are often rewarded for changing your job regularly. if you subscribe to this model, and the bubble doesn't burst , than this can be a very profitable approach to life.
I make better money than the average SF developer at my age, and my cost of living is half of what it would be in SF. I also work 40 hours per week (or less) and work-life balance is highly valued in our small startup scene.
Optimizing for independence is something you would explicitly be moving away from by living in SF, since your income (adjusted for cost of living) is lower there. There are studies showing that as well.
Optimizing for independence is something you would explicitly be moving away from by living in SF, since your income (adjusted for cost of living) is lower there. There are studies showing that as well.
Please give more info where you're located, and by whom you're employed, and if you're local or remote.
Ex: living in NL and getting WA level remote salary 150K+ (you get the point).
Ex: living in NL and getting WA level remote salary 150K+ (you get the point).
I prefer not to give that many personal details out on HN. If you're curious, please feel free to email me via the address in my profile. I'm happy to chat!
> in the tech industry you are often rewarded for changing your job regularly.
That only works when you're early in your career (< 5 years experience, beginner to intermediate). You hit a wall fairly quickly after that. Also, in those five years, you hit your 80% learned with 20% of the effort. After that, you can learn and earn far more by making your own products and selling them. Or starting your own company.
That only works when you're early in your career (< 5 years experience, beginner to intermediate). You hit a wall fairly quickly after that. Also, in those five years, you hit your 80% learned with 20% of the effort. After that, you can learn and earn far more by making your own products and selling them. Or starting your own company.
California state is broke. Over the last three years it's gotten better, but compared to 8 years ago, desperate. More people would move there (the new DC?) Which is why "use tax" on vehicle tags is still a thing... and the amount of military in CA? Well they don't (usually) have to pay it.
Try flipping it: Given the potential salary, why would a developer NOT live in Silicon Valley?
But really I think it's largely being around so many like-minded people. The community and the fact that companies are there for similar reasons. At least that's one reason why I personally would want to be there. To have the best opportunity to learn and grow.
But really I think it's largely being around so many like-minded people. The community and the fact that companies are there for similar reasons. At least that's one reason why I personally would want to be there. To have the best opportunity to learn and grow.
I'm not sure if that math checks out. What are usual starting salaries in SF for mid level engineers?
I've heard of junior engineers making anywhere from $60k - $110k, usually on the higher end of that range.
Personally, I wouldn't live in San Francisco itself. I live in Alameda (quiet small island life ftw) and that lets me save quite a bit every month.
Personally, I wouldn't live in San Francisco itself. I live in Alameda (quiet small island life ftw) and that lets me save quite a bit every month.
When I was a junior engineer, I was making 115k in SF. On average I'd put 2-2.5k/month into savings.
When I was a starting developer in Oklahoma, making just a smidgen more than half of that I was saving the same ($55k-$60k). Worked barely 40 hours per week and lived in an apartment less than a block from work.
I left because I wanted and liked living in the middle of the city and wanted a change. I'm in Austin now and I feel like downtown Austin offers a nice compromise between expense of living and salary and tech community (like minded individuals) when compared to San Francisco. My salary is similar to what I was offered in San Francisco (almost negligible difference), but my apartment is substantially nicer than anything I had a fighting chance for in San Francisco. I bike or walk everywhere and don't need or use a car. I'm very close to feeling like I've hit the sweet spot and being content.
I left because I wanted and liked living in the middle of the city and wanted a change. I'm in Austin now and I feel like downtown Austin offers a nice compromise between expense of living and salary and tech community (like minded individuals) when compared to San Francisco. My salary is similar to what I was offered in San Francisco (almost negligible difference), but my apartment is substantially nicer than anything I had a fighting chance for in San Francisco. I bike or walk everywhere and don't need or use a car. I'm very close to feeling like I've hit the sweet spot and being content.
At the moment, the SF bay area still has the most choices if you're looking for a new job.
That actually translates into something of a financial advantage. The two largest pay raises I've gotten have been from quitting and joining another firm.
It depends how settled down you are of course. Being willing to move is generally financially beneficial as well.
That actually translates into something of a financial advantage. The two largest pay raises I've gotten have been from quitting and joining another firm.
It depends how settled down you are of course. Being willing to move is generally financially beneficial as well.
As a twenty-something who grew up and lived in different parts of California, I actually think this one of the best places to live. If I had the money, I would totally buy a house here. San Diego would be next on my list.
Because its close to their job? Commute time is highly related to happiness.
The question implied that the alternative would be to work in another city as well as live in another city...
Ah, I thought they meant "why would a software developer working in Silicon Valley live there."
i live in Seattle. i like the bay, but a company cant (wont) compensate me enough to move to Palo Alto where buying a house is impossible.
Most likely because the best companies are there.
My rent went up by around $2000. At a marginal tax rate (Medicare + Federal + State) of ~40% this meant post tax income would have to go up by $40000 to "break even". Tack on an extra $5000 per year to cover the high state tax rate (this difference varies based on origin state). In comparison, my gross income went up by over $50k within a year and $150k within 3 years.
There are other aspects that add to "why I personally live here". (1) Job security is much better, not in the sense that companies are more loyal or successful here, but in that there is so much going on that you get job security from the strength of the market, and I feel like if I ever lost my job or wanted to change I can. (2) Because of the strength of the market, employers treat employees much better here than in smaller markets. (3) Everybody else is here. The proliferation of people who I can learn from here is amazing to take in.
There are definitely things that will tip the scale in favor of going away. Kids and buying a home are a big one, since those costs are even more outsized here than rent alone. Also, the valley is disproportionately friendly to the cutting-edge, type-A career, and the numbers (in terms of the jobs you can get) are not as friendly if you want to settle down. It's for these reasons it's likely I'll leave, but in the meantime, the cost of living is offset by a long shot, to say nothing about the intangible benefits.