Nest Thermostat Glitch Leaves Users in the Cold(nytimes.com)
nytimes.com
Nest Thermostat Glitch Leaves Users in the Cold
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/14/fashion/nest-thermostat-glitch-battery-dies-software-freeze.html
43 comments
Not surprising. My first Nest wouldn't connect to any of my 5 access points in my house.. thought it was a bug until I found it COULD connect via tethering from my iPhone.
Spent a weekend troubleshooting, Nest ultimately sent me a replacement, which I was sure wouldn't fix my issue, but it actually did! Bad chipset.
Then I had the common wire issue. Then I fixed that.
Then 6mo later I spent a few hours on the phone with support before I found out I actually had something in the furnace fail over the summer. I was amazed it was not a Nest issue.
Also, my Nest loses its internet connection when it goes into the infamous "power save" mode, which Nest insists means your access point is not 802.11 compliant, but I have the certification from Meraki that their APs are fully compliant.
It's been a fairly colossal pain in the ass, even though at least one issue was not Nest's fault.
From cruising the forums, they just break shit way too often, don't give a downgrade option, don't allow you to choose whether or not to apply software updates, and.. just generally treat an important home appliance like it's a cheap toy.
Spent a weekend troubleshooting, Nest ultimately sent me a replacement, which I was sure wouldn't fix my issue, but it actually did! Bad chipset.
Then I had the common wire issue. Then I fixed that.
Then 6mo later I spent a few hours on the phone with support before I found out I actually had something in the furnace fail over the summer. I was amazed it was not a Nest issue.
Also, my Nest loses its internet connection when it goes into the infamous "power save" mode, which Nest insists means your access point is not 802.11 compliant, but I have the certification from Meraki that their APs are fully compliant.
It's been a fairly colossal pain in the ass, even though at least one issue was not Nest's fault.
From cruising the forums, they just break shit way too often, don't give a downgrade option, don't allow you to choose whether or not to apply software updates, and.. just generally treat an important home appliance like it's a cheap toy.
Just to provide a counter point of view, I owned a Nest 1st gen for 2 years (before selling my house) and didn't have a single issue.
I worked at home which means the smart scheduling was useless but the aesthetics and ease of use were great. Not to mention turning it on/off while away from the house was nice (I know, not limited to Nest).
I worked at home which means the smart scheduling was useless but the aesthetics and ease of use were great. Not to mention turning it on/off while away from the house was nice (I know, not limited to Nest).
Really? The Nest Thermostat should still be able to control your heaters even without internet. https://nest.com/support/article/Do-I-need-Wi-Fi-to-use-Nest
>“We had a bug that was introduced in the software update that didn’t show up for about two weeks,” Mr. Rogers said apologetically. In January, devices went offline, and “that’s when things started to heat up.”
At what point is this just a matter of complexity growing beyond its masters' capacity to manage it? Computers interacting with all sorts of analog systems are going to have a million edge cases.
But it's just beginning. Give them the ability to interact with other connected objects, and your potential problems proliferate. Add a smart garage door opener, and you may not figure out how that's connected to your thermostat cranking the heat too high, or who's to blame.
Seriously — listen to this: http://iotpodcast.com/2015/12/episode-36-a-total-breakdown-i...
But it's just beginning. Give them the ability to interact with other connected objects, and your potential problems proliferate. Add a smart garage door opener, and you may not figure out how that's connected to your thermostat cranking the heat too high, or who's to blame.
Seriously — listen to this: http://iotpodcast.com/2015/12/episode-36-a-total-breakdown-i...
is this just a matter of complexity growing beyond
its masters' capacity to manage it?
Back in the 1990s if Microsoft released a new version of Windows they would test compatibility with other vendors' software - and often adapted Windows to maintain compatibility of vendors were relying on some eccentric behaviour.
What you do is build a test lab. You buy 100 routers covering a range of chipsets and manufacturers. Plug them into a network and a software-controlled power switch. Every time you do a revision of your hardware you keep a few back for the test lab. Then every time you do a revision of the software, you deploy it to all the hardware, and you test it one at a time on every one of the routers. Customer's having problems with hardware so old you can't get it for your lab? Ask the customer for theirs, and offer them something better in trade.
You do the same with furnaces - although you probably need many fewer units in your test lab because the interfaces are a lot simpler.
The main reason not to do this is cost - a company might think spending $200,000 on a test lab has lower returns than spending that money on adverts or product discounts.
But that is not the case.
Any non-hip, non-fancy, non-SV thermostat control system doesn't have these bugs.
Sure, those systems don't come in fancy design, but they will work offline, they will work in every edge case, and they'll cost twice of what Nest costs.
Treating IoT devices as if they'd be consumer software, with updates every week and constant internet access has never worked, and probably never will.
Any non-hip, non-fancy, non-SV thermostat control system doesn't have these bugs.
Sure, those systems don't come in fancy design, but they will work offline, they will work in every edge case, and they'll cost twice of what Nest costs.
Treating IoT devices as if they'd be consumer software, with updates every week and constant internet access has never worked, and probably never will.
And ironically, IoT devices could be much more reliable if not done by the SaaS startup playbook. Just don't be greedy and stop with the cloud bullshit. A lot of IoT devices are just some hobby-grade projects put in nice packaging and launched into stratosphere on investor-fuel marketing boosters.
I certainly can't complain about my INSTEON thermostat. It won't win any design awards, and doesn't have a color screen or a touchscreen. But it works well, and I can interface my computer with it. It also works when the Internet is down.
As my new 3DS game had to get a software update before I could play it, I realized software engineers did a lot better job releasing working software before there was a way to fix your bad software post-release.
I don't think "offline" in this context means that the problem was because the device couldn't connect to the internet. It sounds like the bug drained the battery which prevented it from functioning.
The bug probably affect the Nest's ability to do low power charging using the fan wire. Evidently, as long as the fan runs, the Nest will charge at a lower rate than you get with the common wire hooked up. That is, unless you release some bad code and didn't do a full CI/CD run on a test unit and wait 2 weeks for the battery to go dead to figure out there was a bug.
Which hit me on the 8th at exactly 9:29AM. It was FREEZING in the house. Dead nest. Took me about 10 minutes to look up the issue and 5 to hook up common.
Any code that touches battery or recharge methods should throw a red flag immediately and have a 1 month wait time slapped on them. Also, there should be a dedicated Test Nest for each release known to be "in production".
Which hit me on the 8th at exactly 9:29AM. It was FREEZING in the house. Dead nest. Took me about 10 minutes to look up the issue and 5 to hook up common.
Any code that touches battery or recharge methods should throw a red flag immediately and have a 1 month wait time slapped on them. Also, there should be a dedicated Test Nest for each release known to be "in production".
Did they actually say it was a bug in the battery / recharge code?
It sounds like they could have just added some generic code that prevented the device from going into deep sleep.
It sounds like they could have just added some generic code that prevented the device from going into deep sleep.
I haven't heard that, but I assumed one of three things went when it happened: 1. the Nest was fully charged when I bought it and then was unable to charge itself enough from the fan running and went dead, 2. something happened to the wiring on my heating system to cause it to not charge, or 3. something happened to the Nest itself.
The first assumption was addressed by several heat and air contractors on Youtube, so I hooked up the common 24v wire to ensure it would charge and it immediately started working again. This required me to hook up the wire on the heating unit itself, and the Nest. Given I've worked with electronics and have built parts of houses, done wiring, plumbing, etc., it was a 5 minute job for me.
The Nest was built to provide a feature by which it could charge itself off the latent, low power current that runs through the fan wire while it is running. This is one of those cases where more features equals more things to break when you push.
The first assumption was addressed by several heat and air contractors on Youtube, so I hooked up the common 24v wire to ensure it would charge and it immediately started working again. This required me to hook up the wire on the heating unit itself, and the Nest. Given I've worked with electronics and have built parts of houses, done wiring, plumbing, etc., it was a 5 minute job for me.
The Nest was built to provide a feature by which it could charge itself off the latent, low power current that runs through the fan wire while it is running. This is one of those cases where more features equals more things to break when you push.
This is the heart of the problem. It's not 'the cloud', unnecessarily complex feature sets, or any of the other complaints being thrown around
It's that the software was not thoroughly tested. Nest cut corners in R&D.
Consumers are also at fault for not taking the time to understand the hack job Nest has done to trickle charge the device when no common wire is available. Those with 'mission critical' needs (babies, elderly, 2nd home) rolled the dice and are as much at fault as Nest IMHO.
As more devices become 'smart', the companies that invest in design & testing will become more trusted. But also, consumers need to appreciate that a device is only as smart as the infrastructure it's connected too. Any limitations in your house need a fallback plan.
(I'm actually glad that trickle charge hack has come home to roost)
It's that the software was not thoroughly tested. Nest cut corners in R&D.
Consumers are also at fault for not taking the time to understand the hack job Nest has done to trickle charge the device when no common wire is available. Those with 'mission critical' needs (babies, elderly, 2nd home) rolled the dice and are as much at fault as Nest IMHO.
As more devices become 'smart', the companies that invest in design & testing will become more trusted. But also, consumers need to appreciate that a device is only as smart as the infrastructure it's connected too. Any limitations in your house need a fallback plan.
(I'm actually glad that trickle charge hack has come home to roost)
> Consumers are also at fault
I can't disagree with this more. When you are trying to replace a thermostat, the onus is on you to do right by your customers. And that may be (is!) difficult. But the customer is never at fault for trusting you, but you can be at fault for abusing their trust.
I can't disagree with this more. When you are trying to replace a thermostat, the onus is on you to do right by your customers. And that may be (is!) difficult. But the customer is never at fault for trusting you, but you can be at fault for abusing their trust.
Your assertion implies a one way trust channel. Company ---trust---> customer. While money is stored trust, it can be used in a trusted or untrusted way. This implies there is little to no customer ---trust---> company.
Most thermostats are trustworthy because they are simple. I bought a fancy thermostat back in the early 90s that had a small LCD screen on it and it would run a schedule if you set it. I eventually replaced it with a regular thermostat because it was a pain in the ass to adjust the temperature with button pushes and the hall that it was in was dark most of the time. This is the extent of customer trust given to a company.
The ability to control the Nest with a dial and from my shell on my computer are great reasons for me to trust the Nest and buy it. That said, I'm also cognizant of the fact it needs to connect to the Internet to allow control from the CLI, do updates and set the schedule correctly.
The onus may be on a company to do right by its customers, but the fact is that mistakes can and will occur if the requirements are such that a remote update and control system be in place for the product.
I think @radiorental is correct that customers don't take the time to understand that having a device which provides X features comes with Y risk associated with it. Nest will always be at risk for "being at fault" for a problem that will occur again in the future. Customers need to understand that a time savings on one side may mean a time cost on the other, when Nest isn't able to cover it for them.
I might point out that anyone who disagrees with this assertion assumes that Nest should not make mistakes. Assuming a complex system is perfect, or can achieve perfection, is irrational.
Most thermostats are trustworthy because they are simple. I bought a fancy thermostat back in the early 90s that had a small LCD screen on it and it would run a schedule if you set it. I eventually replaced it with a regular thermostat because it was a pain in the ass to adjust the temperature with button pushes and the hall that it was in was dark most of the time. This is the extent of customer trust given to a company.
The ability to control the Nest with a dial and from my shell on my computer are great reasons for me to trust the Nest and buy it. That said, I'm also cognizant of the fact it needs to connect to the Internet to allow control from the CLI, do updates and set the schedule correctly.
The onus may be on a company to do right by its customers, but the fact is that mistakes can and will occur if the requirements are such that a remote update and control system be in place for the product.
I think @radiorental is correct that customers don't take the time to understand that having a device which provides X features comes with Y risk associated with it. Nest will always be at risk for "being at fault" for a problem that will occur again in the future. Customers need to understand that a time savings on one side may mean a time cost on the other, when Nest isn't able to cover it for them.
I might point out that anyone who disagrees with this assertion assumes that Nest should not make mistakes. Assuming a complex system is perfect, or can achieve perfection, is irrational.
To put this into perspective. The competing product https://www.ecobee.com/ makes no attempt to power itself via trickle current.
Nest, in an effort to widen the install base went out on a limb. And that's fine but a little research would reveal not insignificant user feedback with installation issues
I'm putting some onus on the customer to understand all the pros & cons with a given product. With the state of smart devices in the home at the moment, homeowners are effectively system integrators. You can't have your cake and eat it.
Would you put t-mobile at fault for selling a phone to a user who didn't check the coverage map first?
Do you read Amazon reviews for any given product you purchase there, or assume all manufactures are selling the absolute best mankind can produce?
The Nest is not fit for installation in a huge portion of homes. The trickle charge tries to side step lack of common wire. When it works it's fine, but it's not hard to find reports of weird installation problems.
Nest, in an effort to widen the install base went out on a limb. And that's fine but a little research would reveal not insignificant user feedback with installation issues
I'm putting some onus on the customer to understand all the pros & cons with a given product. With the state of smart devices in the home at the moment, homeowners are effectively system integrators. You can't have your cake and eat it.
Would you put t-mobile at fault for selling a phone to a user who didn't check the coverage map first?
Do you read Amazon reviews for any given product you purchase there, or assume all manufactures are selling the absolute best mankind can produce?
The Nest is not fit for installation in a huge portion of homes. The trickle charge tries to side step lack of common wire. When it works it's fine, but it's not hard to find reports of weird installation problems.
It is also a gigantic pain in the ass to change wifi settings on the Nest Protect, and it's worse because they are mounted on the ceiling so you have to get a ladder. These guys could have learned a lot about ease of use from Sonos. In fact, for the money that Google spent, I would have bought Sonos five times rather than buying Nest.
"However, what's not a joke is what happens when the internet goes down. So does our heat."
Predictable. Avoidable. Pitiful.
Predictable. Avoidable. Pitiful.
Why not (and i realise that this is a dirty horrible hack) isolate those devices to their own dedicated virtual ap and isolated network. that way you get to restrict what they can talk to, what can talk to them and the keys that everyone else uses.
this also allows you to finally get around to rolling out eap so the scourge of shared wifi keys can die out :)
this also allows you to finally get around to rolling out eap so the scourge of shared wifi keys can die out :)
> this also allows you to finally get around to rolling out eap
* WPA2-Enterprise is not universally supported. (Ferinstance, no Chromecast can connect via WPA2-Enterpise. :( )
* Which EAP? EAP-TLS? EAP-MD5? [0] EAP-MSCHAPv2? Or perhaps EAP-GTC? [1][2]
> this also allows you to finally get around to rolling out eap so the scourge of shared wifi keys can die out
Unrelated to the issue at hand... I really wish OS X and Windows supported EAP-WFA-UNAUTH-TLS (and that EAP-UNAUTH-TLS would become an "actual" EAP method, rather than languishing as a vendor specific extension. Securely encrypted zero-configuration public WiFi can't come fast enough! :)
[0] God no! ;)
[1] It probably sounds like I'm trying to imply that WPA2-Enterprise is too complicated. Frankly (speaking as a guy who's implementing his own RADIUS server as a hobby project), it's really not. There are just many, many options available to you... and not all of them are supported by all RADIUS servers.
[2] Anyway... given what very little I know about EAP-GTC, I would suggest that -if we're going for a near-zero-configuration deployment- it would be the most suitable for the situation that we're talking about... The trick would be hooking the verification logic for the security token in the device into the RADIUS server. :)
* WPA2-Enterprise is not universally supported. (Ferinstance, no Chromecast can connect via WPA2-Enterpise. :( )
* Which EAP? EAP-TLS? EAP-MD5? [0] EAP-MSCHAPv2? Or perhaps EAP-GTC? [1][2]
> this also allows you to finally get around to rolling out eap so the scourge of shared wifi keys can die out
Unrelated to the issue at hand... I really wish OS X and Windows supported EAP-WFA-UNAUTH-TLS (and that EAP-UNAUTH-TLS would become an "actual" EAP method, rather than languishing as a vendor specific extension. Securely encrypted zero-configuration public WiFi can't come fast enough! :)
[0] God no! ;)
[1] It probably sounds like I'm trying to imply that WPA2-Enterprise is too complicated. Frankly (speaking as a guy who's implementing his own RADIUS server as a hobby project), it's really not. There are just many, many options available to you... and not all of them are supported by all RADIUS servers.
[2] Anyway... given what very little I know about EAP-GTC, I would suggest that -if we're going for a near-zero-configuration deployment- it would be the most suitable for the situation that we're talking about... The trick would be hooking the verification logic for the security token in the device into the RADIUS server. :)
> * Which EAP? EAP-TLS? EAP-MD5? [0] EAP-MSCHAPv2? Or perhaps EAP-GTC?
EAP-TLS ideally. You need a CA infrastructure, a radius server, and a way of doing automated enrolment, revocation and install of client certificates. A lot of work if you haven't already got those parts (though many places already do), but it's fairly hassle free and secure once up and running.
For bonus points you can extend 802.11x goodness to your wired desktop ports as well.
You probably need at least one other network/BSSID with standard wpa2 for non-managed devices as you say.
EAP-TLS ideally. You need a CA infrastructure, a radius server, and a way of doing automated enrolment, revocation and install of client certificates. A lot of work if you haven't already got those parts (though many places already do), but it's fairly hassle free and secure once up and running.
For bonus points you can extend 802.11x goodness to your wired desktop ports as well.
You probably need at least one other network/BSSID with standard wpa2 for non-managed devices as you say.
So, I'm fairly new to this... how would you do automated installation of client certs on:
* OS X machines
* Android devices
* A Nest Thermostat
> For bonus points you can extend 802.11x goodness to your wired desktop ports as well.
Though, that only works if you have either a Smart or a Managed switch that understands that it needs to tag frames from that port with RADIUS-dictated VLAN tags, right?
* OS X machines
* Android devices
* A Nest Thermostat
> For bonus points you can extend 802.11x goodness to your wired desktop ports as well.
Though, that only works if you have either a Smart or a Managed switch that understands that it needs to tag frames from that port with RADIUS-dictated VLAN tags, right?
OS X - puppet/chef or equivalent
Android - MDM (I think the stock google apps MDM can do client Certs and 802.11x network config)
Nest - would not bother; stick on a dedicated standard WPA2 network, segregate from rest of network then leave well alone.
Wired network - yes, you'd need a managed L2 switch (but then you'd need that anyway to trunk multiple tagged vlans to your APs).
Android - MDM (I think the stock google apps MDM can do client Certs and 802.11x network config)
Nest - would not bother; stick on a dedicated standard WPA2 network, segregate from rest of network then leave well alone.
Wired network - yes, you'd need a managed L2 switch (but then you'd need that anyway to trunk multiple tagged vlans to your APs).
Nest's wifi has always been sh*t (for lack of a better word). It's the only device that I've had to reboot the AP for.
It is by far the most fragile device from a network connectivity standpoint. I'm so happy that I won the Nest or I would be so much angrier at the whole thing.
It is by far the most fragile device from a network connectivity standpoint. I'm so happy that I won the Nest or I would be so much angrier at the whole thing.
> However, what's not a joke is what happens when the internet goes down. So does our heat.
That's very odd. My Nest functions fine during Time Warner outages.
That's very odd. My Nest functions fine during Time Warner outages.
> However, what's not a joke is what happens when the internet goes down. So does our heat.
As a couple of other folks have noted, that's not normal. You might want to get on tech support with them.
My Nest just keeps running its last program when it looses internet.
As a couple of other folks have noted, that's not normal. You might want to get on tech support with them.
My Nest just keeps running its last program when it looses internet.
Hilarious. A residential thermostat that needs tech support. Only in the Silicon Valley echo chamber can that seem like a good idea. It reminds me of the old engineering saying: "If it's not broken it doesn't have enough features yet."
I'm at a complete loss of words at why you think that's even in the same class of support...
Why? He said tech support, the link given has a number for tech support. Seems pretty similar. Honeywell also has a wifi smart thermostat that is controlled by an iPhone app and competes with the Nest.
Seems pretty damn similar.
Seems pretty damn similar.
Everything electronic needs tech support. You could have a 100% reliable product that's nothing more than a single button that literally does one thing when you press it, and you'd still need tech support because people will call in and ask you how to use it, or why it doesn't do anything when they don't push the button.
Criticizing Nest for having tech support is just silly. Much better to criticize it for the actual stupid failure being experienced by the original commenter.
Criticizing Nest for having tech support is just silly. Much better to criticize it for the actual stupid failure being experienced by the original commenter.
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I've had two nests at home for almost 2 years, and have never had them stop working when the wifi went out. They just stick to whatever schedule they were programmed with the last time they were on the internet.
I wouldn't buy a nest again because their API is locked down and they seem to think they own all the data that they collect in my house and won't let me access it, but they've been reliable for me and I have never had a problem with my heat going out.
I wouldn't buy a nest again because their API is locked down and they seem to think they own all the data that they collect in my house and won't let me access it, but they've been reliable for me and I have never had a problem with my heat going out.
I've avoided nest because I worry it may fail and literally cook my animals during the brutal summer heat we get. Seems that worry may be founded.
Typical Google product.
"It also happened recently with Fitbit, the maker of wearable activity trackers. The company was hit with a class-action lawsuit in San Francisco asserting that the wristbands failed to “consistently and accurately record wearers’ heart rates,” which is vital for those with certain medical conditions."
Apropos of anything else - I don't think Fitbit has ever tried to market itself as a medical device.
Apropos of anything else - I don't think Fitbit has ever tried to market itself as a medical device.
It turns out even if a company markets its products with big bold "not for diagnostic/medical use", and its customers use the products for diagnostic or medical use, the company can still be on the hook. It depends on a number of things, not least of which is the company's knowledge of the actual use of their devices.
It shouldn't matter. It says it can read your heart rate. That's what it advertises as. It should be able to do so.
I'm curious if there are legal precedents on how accurate a thing must be to advertise as a being a measurement device.
I'm curious if there are legal precedents on how accurate a thing must be to advertise as a being a measurement device.
This is a bullshit argument. They do read your heart rate. But they explicitly say that it isn't up to a medical or diagnostic level of reliability.
Everything has some level of quality or tolerance expected. Car parts break all the time, it is just a normal part of owning a car. You don't get to sue a car company when your battery dies and you need a jump. You only get to do it when there is a significant or dangerous breach in the guarantees that they actually made, even if only made implicitly. Fitbit explicitly does not rate themselves for that purpose.
Everything has some level of quality or tolerance expected. Car parts break all the time, it is just a normal part of owning a car. You don't get to sue a car company when your battery dies and you need a jump. You only get to do it when there is a significant or dangerous breach in the guarantees that they actually made, even if only made implicitly. Fitbit explicitly does not rate themselves for that purpose.
Actually it's quite unlike car parts breaking. Car parts have infant/random failures and wear-out failures. These kinds of failures are usually a very small percentage of the total number of devices shipped.
Fitbit's HR monitor fails to provide accurate readings whenever you move on almost everybody. What they don't do is advertise that you have to be still to get an accurate reading. Fitbit is marketed in such a way as to make you think it tracks HR during motion, I'd say it's not the same as a car parts that break at all. It's more like lying by omission.
Fitbit's HR monitor fails to provide accurate readings whenever you move on almost everybody. What they don't do is advertise that you have to be still to get an accurate reading. Fitbit is marketed in such a way as to make you think it tracks HR during motion, I'd say it's not the same as a car parts that break at all. It's more like lying by omission.
Maybe your experience is different from mine then. My device was inaccurate enough to be useless. Further there doesn't seem to be any allegation that people are expecting it to have a medical or diagnostic level of reliability. That seemed to be a throwaway line in OP's article, not something core to the lawsuit. As far as I can tell from other news sources, they are suing because it can't read heart rate for crap.
You're exactly right. "Diagnostic level" of testing would tell you the difference between 120 and 121 bpm. Fitbit would read 85 bpm. That's not even close to right, which means it's completely useless for what it's marketed as.
With the same logic as Fitbit, my watch tells reads my heart rate. Right now it's saying my heart is beating 9:21am. Sure, that's not as accurate as a real medical device, but it's a number so it's in the right ballpark.
With the same logic as Fitbit, my watch tells reads my heart rate. Right now it's saying my heart is beating 9:21am. Sure, that's not as accurate as a real medical device, but it's a number so it's in the right ballpark.
Where do they explicitly say that? I poked around their site and all I could find was mountains of bragging about how awesome their heart rate measurement technology is, and a few disclaimers about how it might not work if your activity involves rapid arm movements, like boxing. But maybe I missed the other disclaimers.
This is not a bullshit argument. It is similar to labor laws in some states. You can claim someone as a indy contractor but if they are working with your tools or at your job site or under your instruction ... guess what? some states don't care what you call them ... they will be processed as employees not contractors.
Not bullshit.
Not bullshit.
If there were a special tax on heart rate monitors that _are_ medical devices, and FitBit was calling theirs not a medical devices to avoid paying that tax, then the analogy would be reasonable.
The whole employee/contractor thing is all about payroll taxes. You have to pay them yourself if you get a 1099, but your employer pays them if you're on a W-2. Employers have a much better track record of paying that, so the government wants to avoid too many 1099s.
I've been a contractor before. I got a W-2, but no benefits. Now everyone is happy.
The whole employee/contractor thing is all about payroll taxes. You have to pay them yourself if you get a 1099, but your employer pays them if you're on a W-2. Employers have a much better track record of paying that, so the government wants to avoid too many 1099s.
I've been a contractor before. I got a W-2, but no benefits. Now everyone is happy.
All mobile phones advertise calling. All of them warn that they are not meant for emergency calling.
Is that true? That would be rather odd given that they are required by law to be capable of it, to the extent that it has to work even when you don't have an active mobile account for the device.
That doesn't seem fair. What's a company supposed to do in that situation? Just close up shop?
Makes me wonder if it would be possible to intentionally drive a company out of business by convincing a bunch of people to use their products incorrectly.
Makes me wonder if it would be possible to intentionally drive a company out of business by convincing a bunch of people to use their products incorrectly.
I don't know about Fitbit per se, but there are cases where a company says one thing in it's legal interface, but does another with it's sales interface. IOW (pure speculation on my part), Fitbit could say "don't use this for such and such" and the sales people say "yeah, we say that (wink, wink), but we don't really mean it." To be clear, I am not saying Fitbit does that, but I am familiar with other companies that have done such and gotten in trouble for it.
Oh they totally do it, but even more sneakily. After the whole Internet hypes itself up, the salesmen don't have to say a word. Random blogs, newspaper articles and word-of-mouth have already done it for them.
GNC Pill Pushers
This is where legal concepts (in the US) such as 'reasonable person' come into play. Courts usually hold that any use of a product that a 'reasonable person' would do is an acceptable use (regardless of what the instructions say - a reasonable person, it would seem, doesn't read the instructions :P). However, a company doesn't need to be held responsible for an un-reasonable use.
In this case, would courts find that a reasonable person would assume that a heart rate monitor can accurately monitor their heart rate? My guess is, yes.
In this case, would courts find that a reasonable person would assume that a heart rate monitor can accurately monitor their heart rate? My guess is, yes.
So this would be similar to where a lawn more is designed to cut grass. And a reasonable person would assume that it can also cut weeds that are growing in the lawn. But it isn't reasonable to assume that you could pick it up in the air and use it as a hedge trimmer.
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If you sell a device that monitors heart rates, and that device doesn't properly monitor heart rates... then you need to fix it or stop making it. I don't see why that is unfair?
If I buy a desk lamp and it doesn't work reliably then you sold me a lemon and I want my money back. It doesn't matter why I need light on my desk.
If I buy a desk lamp and it doesn't work reliably then you sold me a lemon and I want my money back. It doesn't matter why I need light on my desk.
For a measurement device, "accurate" and "reliable" aren't binary conditions, they're continuums. Not every sensor in the world has to be medical grade. There are plenty of applications where a less accurate sensor at a much lower price point is the right choice.
Remember, I'm talking about situations where the company actually says "not for medical/diagnostic use". They're not trying to get away with selling lemons.
To use your analogy: If I sell you a small LED (say for use as a power indicator on a computer) and you try to use it as a desk lamp, you shouldn't be able to sue me on the grounds that "you should have known I was going to use it as a desk lamp and made it fit for that purpose". That's what seems unfair to me.
Remember, I'm talking about situations where the company actually says "not for medical/diagnostic use". They're not trying to get away with selling lemons.
To use your analogy: If I sell you a small LED (say for use as a power indicator on a computer) and you try to use it as a desk lamp, you shouldn't be able to sue me on the grounds that "you should have known I was going to use it as a desk lamp and made it fit for that purpose". That's what seems unfair to me.
That's technically fair, but everyone knows it's not what's going there. A small LED equivalent of a heart rate monitor is your optical mouse hacked into being a crude pulse oximeter. By the way, you know your mouse is also a 1-D camera / scanner, and can be used to somewhat digitize something?
They totally advertise it as a working heart rate monitor. If they have a problem with accuracy, they should not be making it. Otherwise it's like making a tape measure that has marked distances within +/- 20% of the real value (i.e. 1cm becomes anything from 0.8cm to 1.2cm), and marking it with a small caption that it's not for construction use. Oh, and having the product website say "it measures distance" and elaborate on the benefits of measurements for building stuff.
--
I'm conflicted about it. On the one hand, I feel like people should be free to build whatever trinkets their like (as long as they are safe). OTOH, I feel like they should totally not be free to sell crap tools.
They totally advertise it as a working heart rate monitor. If they have a problem with accuracy, they should not be making it. Otherwise it's like making a tape measure that has marked distances within +/- 20% of the real value (i.e. 1cm becomes anything from 0.8cm to 1.2cm), and marking it with a small caption that it's not for construction use. Oh, and having the product website say "it measures distance" and elaborate on the benefits of measurements for building stuff.
--
I'm conflicted about it. On the one hand, I feel like people should be free to build whatever trinkets their like (as long as they are safe). OTOH, I feel like they should totally not be free to sell crap tools.
>your mouse is also a 1-D camera / scanner, and can be used to somewhat digitize something?
On a totally unrelated note, the image sensors in optical mice are actually low-resolution (16x16) 2D arrays.
https://pickandplace.wordpress.com/2012/05/16/2d-positioning...
On a totally unrelated note, the image sensors in optical mice are actually low-resolution (16x16) 2D arrays.
https://pickandplace.wordpress.com/2012/05/16/2d-positioning...
Come on. They put a heart rate monitor into the device, and they plastered information about it all over their website. I didn't manage to find a single mention that it's crap.
You don't do that unless you want people to believe you're selling a working heart rate monitor. So if it turns out the monitor is not usable for its stated purpose, then they either fucked up the engineering, or they're literally scamming people. In both cases the comapny is supposed to either address the problem or close shop. That's exacly what should happen.
You don't do that unless you want people to believe you're selling a working heart rate monitor. So if it turns out the monitor is not usable for its stated purpose, then they either fucked up the engineering, or they're literally scamming people. In both cases the comapny is supposed to either address the problem or close shop. That's exacly what should happen.
They could try harder to influence who buys their product and how those buyers use it before they just close up shop.
It's not like Fitbit has gigantic text on their web site and product packaging saying "NOT FOR MEDICAL USE." In fact, I challenge you to find any such statement anywhere on their web site. I couldn't, but maybe I suck at it.
They could try a little harder to educate their buyers, here.
It's not like Fitbit has gigantic text on their web site and product packaging saying "NOT FOR MEDICAL USE." In fact, I challenge you to find any such statement anywhere on their web site. I couldn't, but maybe I suck at it.
They could try a little harder to educate their buyers, here.
If you buy a heart-rate monitoring device to monitor your heart rate, and it fails to properly monitor your heart rate... why does it matter how you use that data?
I have a fitbit chargehr. It doesn't monitor heartrate for shit; it's 20-50 bpm off during exercise.
Have you considered that you may just be an incredibly gifted athlete?
The parent comment said "off", which I took to mean that he measured his heartrate manually and compared to the device readout.
This is what I meant.
The ecg monitors built into the precor bikes and counting my wrist pulse for 30 seconds and doubling are generally within 2-4 bpm of each other. My fitbit consistently measures 130-ish when the truth is 175-ish per the above two methods (my cardio hr target).
The ecg monitors built into the precor bikes and counting my wrist pulse for 30 seconds and doubling are generally within 2-4 bpm of each other. My fitbit consistently measures 130-ish when the truth is 175-ish per the above two methods (my cardio hr target).
Same here with Precor. Fitbit hr says 110 while treadmill says 130. Oddly when I got up to 145 on the treadmill the Fitbit read the same.
I'm not sure which one to believe. probably not the Fitbit as I've heard about the lawsuit.
Heart rate over 9000?
If you watch the unhappy early adopter YouTube videos of Nest thermostats, this outcome is pretty predictable. There's a level of quality control you need to put up a web app, which won't physically affect anyone if it happens to crash for awhile. Then there's a much higher level required when you're controlling things in the real world.
This outcome was predictable from the experience of those early adopters.
EDIT: Why couldn't Nest fall back to being a dumb thermostat? Lots of smart device makers should consider having such a fallback.
This outcome was predictable from the experience of those early adopters.
EDIT: Why couldn't Nest fall back to being a dumb thermostat? Lots of smart device makers should consider having such a fallback.
Nest could fix this easily by including two fixed-temperature safety thermostats, devices which cost about $0.25 each. One is hard-wired to turn on heat below 55F. One is hard-wired to turn off heat above 80F. With that, no matter how badly they botch the software, the temperature will stay in a safe, if not totally comfortable, range.
my a/c bill in AZ would be about $400-500 / mo higher in the summer if they made that move! Most people in AZ put their A/C to 87 or so if they aren't home and actually keep it in the high 70s even when home. Otherwise you're looking at $1K/mo energy bills in the summer
giving those numbers ( $400+ means like 100KWh/day or more), it sounds like properly insulating your home is the way to go. In Bay Area, my 2/2 townhouse was built in 2004, so it is very well insulated. We have a small dog and thus keep pretty much the same temp 24/7/365. My bill rarely goes higher than $100 in winter / $50 in summer.
The Nest comes in two parts - the "smart" bit with the USB charger & battery & wifi, and the Heat Link - the actual radio control for your boiler.
The Heat Link has a big button on which lets you turn the heating on and off, overriding what the Nest is telling it. That's not as economical as a regular thermostat, but it means you won't freeze: https://nest.com/uk/support/article/How-do-I-turn-the-heat-o...
The Heat Link has a big button on which lets you turn the heating on and off, overriding what the Nest is telling it. That's not as economical as a regular thermostat, but it means you won't freeze: https://nest.com/uk/support/article/How-do-I-turn-the-heat-o...
Oh, OK, you don't have that in the US apparently. Why's it necessary?
Almost all US central heat and air systems are "forced air" -- gas or electric heaters (furnaces) that blow conditioned air through ducting. Boiler-radiator systems wouldn't work with the standard US thermostat, not least because US thermostats use low-voltage signaling.
You must be from a warm part of the U.S.
Forced hot water systems are very common in the colder parts, and they use the same thermostat wiring as forced air. Some parts of the U.S. even use diesel fuel for heat (it's called #2 heating oil, but it's really just diesel fuel with pink dye added so they can fine you for using it as a vehicle fuel...it's taxed advantageously).
Also, boiler-radiator systems can absolutely work with standard thermostats. The classic design has no electrical control at all, just bimetal valves (like car thermostats) to regulate the flow of heated water. But the modern revision uses the same kind of electrically controlled valves (24VAC, IIRC) that forced hot water does.
All low-voltage thermostats with standardized wiring layouts.
I didn't know the UK ran high voltage to ordinary thermostats though, that seems crazy if it's just a control circuit. Presumably the full mains voltage?
Old U.S. "radiant" (electrical, non-hydronic) heat ran 220/240 VAC to big rheostats in each room, but that was actually the supply to the heating elements. It feels like something that wouldn't meet code today, but it used to be popular in some parts of the country where electricity was inexpensive.
Forced hot water systems are very common in the colder parts, and they use the same thermostat wiring as forced air. Some parts of the U.S. even use diesel fuel for heat (it's called #2 heating oil, but it's really just diesel fuel with pink dye added so they can fine you for using it as a vehicle fuel...it's taxed advantageously).
Also, boiler-radiator systems can absolutely work with standard thermostats. The classic design has no electrical control at all, just bimetal valves (like car thermostats) to regulate the flow of heated water. But the modern revision uses the same kind of electrically controlled valves (24VAC, IIRC) that forced hot water does.
All low-voltage thermostats with standardized wiring layouts.
I didn't know the UK ran high voltage to ordinary thermostats though, that seems crazy if it's just a control circuit. Presumably the full mains voltage?
Old U.S. "radiant" (electrical, non-hydronic) heat ran 220/240 VAC to big rheostats in each room, but that was actually the supply to the heating elements. It feels like something that wouldn't meet code today, but it used to be popular in some parts of the country where electricity was inexpensive.
Yeah, UK central heating systems in homes use the full 240V for all their control wiring. It's worth bearing in mind that this isn't just signalling - the thermostat and timer directly switch the power to the pump and valves.
It still is popular, even in new construction, in the Pacific Northwest.
I don't claim to be an expert but I have a forced hot water system (converted at some point from steam) and AFAIK it uses a "standard" thermostat. At least when I upgraded to a Honeywell programmable thermostat 15 years or so ago, I don't remember it being anything unusual. I bought a thermostat at the home improvement store and an electrician who was doing some other work installed it.
Boiler + hot water circulation through radiators is also pretty common in US and will also use a low voltage thermostat. The only exception I can think of is older gas-powered steam boilers which may use a millivolt thermostat (which have the advantage of working when the power is out).
(Or electric baseboards...but who can afford to heat that way?)
It looks like the UK version is a lot different:
http://www.cnet.com/news/nest-thermostat-finally-arrives-in-...
https://nest.com/blog/2014/04/02/the-uk-just-got-a-little-mo...
http://www.cnet.com/news/nest-thermostat-finally-arrives-in-...
https://nest.com/blog/2014/04/02/the-uk-just-got-a-little-mo...
US thermostats usually use low-voltage wiring for signalling to the furnace or boiler. We usually only see line/mains voltage thermostats (that work by limiting current supplied to a electric heater) in cheap apartments.
https://nest.com/support/article/How-can-I-tell-if-my-curren...
The US version won't work with line voltage systems. It looks like the UK version only works with line voltage systems.
This also explains why in the US changing a thermostat is something pretty much anyone can do but the UK version requires a Nest Pro to hook up.
Nest US: "It's easy to install the Nest Thermostat. Everything you need comes in the box"
Nest UK: "A Nest Pro installer should install your Nest Thermostat. They will identify cables from the boiler, zone valve or junction box to connect to the Heat Link."
The US version won't work with line voltage systems. It looks like the UK version only works with line voltage systems.
This also explains why in the US changing a thermostat is something pretty much anyone can do but the UK version requires a Nest Pro to hook up.
Nest US: "It's easy to install the Nest Thermostat. Everything you need comes in the box"
Nest UK: "A Nest Pro installer should install your Nest Thermostat. They will identify cables from the boiler, zone valve or junction box to connect to the Heat Link."
That must be a UK thing or something. I only have a single device. I know because I installed it myself -- there is definitely no manual override button, and I've never even heard of this Heat Link before.
> Buried deep in Nest’s 8,000-word service agreement is a section called “Disputes and Arbitration,” which prohibits customers from suing the company or joining a class-action suit.
Though I have no need for a thermostat whatsoever, I kinda like nest. However, I'd love if people went to court with a class action suit against them.
These 'no class action' and 'arbitration' clauses are becoming increasingly common, but I think they probably don't hold up in court - and nor should they, given how much power they put in the hands of the company.
Though I have no need for a thermostat whatsoever, I kinda like nest. However, I'd love if people went to court with a class action suit against them.
These 'no class action' and 'arbitration' clauses are becoming increasingly common, but I think they probably don't hold up in court - and nor should they, given how much power they put in the hands of the company.
Judges dismissing cases based on arbitration clauses seems pretty common.
NYT has been on the case recently: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/01/business/dealbook/arbitrat... http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/02/business/dealbook/in-arbit... http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/03/business/dealbook/in-relig...
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/23/business/dealbook/sued-ove...
NYT has been on the case recently: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/01/business/dealbook/arbitrat... http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/02/business/dealbook/in-arbit... http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/03/business/dealbook/in-relig...
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/23/business/dealbook/sued-ove...
Despite arbitration clauses in the EULA, there are people who can sue. The buyer of the device may be barred from suing, but other parties who suffered damages can still use. Roommates, guests, family members, people who live downstairs below pipes broken due to a Nest failure - they can all sue. They didn't agree to the EULA. Regular negligence standards apply. If you can show that a lot of the things failed all at once, that's a pretty good case for negligence.
This can also come up in landlord/tenant situations. If the landlord put in a Nest, and its failure caused the tenant problems, like having to spend the night in a hotel, the tenant can probably sue Nest.
This can also come up in landlord/tenant situations. If the landlord put in a Nest, and its failure caused the tenant problems, like having to spend the night in a hotel, the tenant can probably sue Nest.
John Roberts, the Chief Justice on the Supreme Court, is a pro-arbitration lawyer. In a complex legal landscape, arbitration clauses are winning. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/01/business/dealbook/arbitrat...
The class-action part already went to The Supreme Court. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AT%26T_Mobility_LLC_v._Concepc...
The reason you see it everywhere is because it was deemed legal.
The reason you see it everywhere is because it was deemed legal.
They do usually hold up in court. Some judges have been ruling that the customer must be given more notice on the "contracts" they're supposedly "entering" before they can be entered, however (Nguyen v. Barnes and Noble).
I've had the Nest for 2 years. To be honest I've had zero problems. The only problem I have is that once Google bought them, there has been little to no improvements in anything. They only give 10 days worth of data which is functionally useless. Why should I care about last week for energy use? I want to compare against last year. They haven't made any significant improvements so it's just another case of an innovator getting bought and then getting the innovation sucked out of it.
The same thing happened with Dropcam. Once they were bought by Nest/Google they stopped making any real changes for the last 2 years. It's sad and infuriating as a customer.
The same thing happened with Dropcam. Once they were bought by Nest/Google they stopped making any real changes for the last 2 years. It's sad and infuriating as a customer.
Believe it or not, it wasn't really Google's fault. Agreed that it is sad and infuriating, though.
> Although I had set the thermostat to 70 degrees overnight, my wife and I were woken by a crying baby at 4 a.m. The thermometer in his room read 64 degrees, and the Nest was off.
This seems quite strange to me. Here in Germany it's extremely common to (automatically) turn of heating all together in the night (called Nachtabsenkung). One reason is to save energy, but lower temperatures also help sleep:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/04/health/04real.html
The article says between 60°F (15.5°C) to 68°F (20°) is best.
This seems quite strange to me. Here in Germany it's extremely common to (automatically) turn of heating all together in the night (called Nachtabsenkung). One reason is to save energy, but lower temperatures also help sleep:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/04/health/04real.html
The article says between 60°F (15.5°C) to 68°F (20°) is best.
Never understood how people sleep in warm rooms. 15 C is ideal for me, hell, I usually leave my window open at night to keep the room nice and cool.
I guess it doesn't get too cold where I am (high of 9 C, low of -1 usually in winter), but my place doesn't have any insulation at all, or double glazed windows, and I use the heater for only 30 minutes a day usually in winter, because I just put on more clothes.
I guess it doesn't get too cold where I am (high of 9 C, low of -1 usually in winter), but my place doesn't have any insulation at all, or double glazed windows, and I use the heater for only 30 minutes a day usually in winter, because I just put on more clothes.
Sleeping with heating on seems a waste of energy to me. At least in Spain.
I have a dumb thermostat. It doesn't even have a clock. It just has two buttons, one two increase temperature, the other to decrease it. In winter, during the day, I put it at 20C. At night, I put it at 15C or lower (which stops heating, as the house temperature decreases to about 17 or 18 degrees during the night, without heating). It works like a charm. We are not cold at night as we use pyjamas and duvet. We also have a baby. In fact, if I forget to turn off the heating at night, I can't sleep well and I often get up to turn it off.
I have a dumb thermostat. It doesn't even have a clock. It just has two buttons, one two increase temperature, the other to decrease it. In winter, during the day, I put it at 20C. At night, I put it at 15C or lower (which stops heating, as the house temperature decreases to about 17 or 18 degrees during the night, without heating). It works like a charm. We are not cold at night as we use pyjamas and duvet. We also have a baby. In fact, if I forget to turn off the heating at night, I can't sleep well and I often get up to turn it off.
I sleep with all windows open even in -20 C. You get really refreshed, you sleep much deeper and you learn to ignore all street noise.
Most people turn down their heat at night but not off. 65-68F is common with 70-72F during the day.
Energy costs also tend to be a LOT lower in the States.
Energy costs also tend to be a LOT lower in the States.
House insulation is on average not as good, also.
The advice given to daycare centers in my country for sleeping rooms for babies to reduce the risk of SIDS is to keep them at 18°C, which is 64°F.
I turn it off at night too. It bugs me any time I live with people who want it on as it seems like such a waste of money when you can just use more blankets and everyone can be a comfortable temperature for sleeping (I can't sleep when it's warm). I would normally have it turn on automatically again about 30 mins before I have to get up in the morning.
we keep ours at 70 just due to small kids that don't have big blankets or understand you have to be under layers at night
My 3 year old kid uses a thick winter pyjama. It solves the problem very well.
http://blog.sealy.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/baby-wint...
http://blog.sealy.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/baby-wint...
Sleeping in cold bedrooms may also help metabolism.
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/07/17/lets-cool-it-in-the...
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/07/17/lets-cool-it-in-the...
This offers an interesting insight into the Internet of Things. Take something simple, and tack on a bunch of new technology that is subject to failure. Don't be surprised if it fails.
To be fair, the issue isn't that there was software involved; digital thermostats have that. I think more telling was the level of complexity, which allows for a lot more to go wrong. Combined with a poor process behind update validation, this is what happens.
Keep it Simple. If you're going to use new technology, keep the old stuff around, ideally working in parallel as a failsafe.
And generally, anything you can do to distribute the failure points and allow for overlap (such as backup spaceheaters that don't normally kick on) should be considered if someone's life is on the line, or property is at risk. Stuff can always go wrong, but the more you can do to reduce risk the better. This applies to any system dependency; mechanical thermostat or nest.
To be fair, the issue isn't that there was software involved; digital thermostats have that. I think more telling was the level of complexity, which allows for a lot more to go wrong. Combined with a poor process behind update validation, this is what happens.
Keep it Simple. If you're going to use new technology, keep the old stuff around, ideally working in parallel as a failsafe.
And generally, anything you can do to distribute the failure points and allow for overlap (such as backup spaceheaters that don't normally kick on) should be considered if someone's life is on the line, or property is at risk. Stuff can always go wrong, but the more you can do to reduce risk the better. This applies to any system dependency; mechanical thermostat or nest.
In general, the way IoT is treated is wrong.
Startups try to treat IoT devices as a standard arm or x86 processor with some additional GPIO pins where they read info, deal with it, and write info.
No real-time guarantee, a level of QA similar to websites or consumer software, etc.
And here is what previous companies building smart devices (say, SIEMENS) treated them like: As extended microcontrollers.
Put all the critical software on one tiny microcontroller, do static verification that that microcontroller is always acting correct. If you need Internet access, add a second chip that does that, and provides the results of that data to the first microcontroller — but don't depend on it.
There is a large divide between the Engineers designing these devices in the past, and today's crowd.
Startups try to treat IoT devices as a standard arm or x86 processor with some additional GPIO pins where they read info, deal with it, and write info.
No real-time guarantee, a level of QA similar to websites or consumer software, etc.
And here is what previous companies building smart devices (say, SIEMENS) treated them like: As extended microcontrollers.
Put all the critical software on one tiny microcontroller, do static verification that that microcontroller is always acting correct. If you need Internet access, add a second chip that does that, and provides the results of that data to the first microcontroller — but don't depend on it.
There is a large divide between the Engineers designing these devices in the past, and today's crowd.
To be fair, you can still buy traditional building/home automation products. If you go through the list of vendors on the KNX website you see that pretty much every hip IoT device has a standards-based equivalent from those traditional vendors. Learning thermostats, IP-based video doorbells, smart lights, etc...
The difference is one of market strategy. The IoT devices are deliberately low-threshold purchases (cheap, easy to install) because they want to build a customer relationship that leads to extra sales. Nest cam, ring subscription, etc... Traditional home automation products instead are targeted towards a one-time sale of a larger system, so they focus more on ability to design the system how you want, with more standards support and more ability to integrate with other products, but also a much higher purchase threshold and a much more involved installation process.
In the end, you have to choose what you want. Do you want a single gadget or do you want a whole smart home system?
The difference is one of market strategy. The IoT devices are deliberately low-threshold purchases (cheap, easy to install) because they want to build a customer relationship that leads to extra sales. Nest cam, ring subscription, etc... Traditional home automation products instead are targeted towards a one-time sale of a larger system, so they focus more on ability to design the system how you want, with more standards support and more ability to integrate with other products, but also a much higher purchase threshold and a much more involved installation process.
In the end, you have to choose what you want. Do you want a single gadget or do you want a whole smart home system?
> In the end, you have to choose what you want. Do you want a single gadget or do you want a whole smart home system?
I want a whole smart home system built piece by piece through buying various smart devices of different vendors and having them talk to each other. This is how it's supposed to work for the "personal use" market, and this is what we need to push for.
I want a whole smart home system built piece by piece through buying various smart devices of different vendors and having them talk to each other. This is how it's supposed to work for the "personal use" market, and this is what we need to push for.
Another angle to that problem is that a lot of IoT today is basically making something equivalent to a weekend hardware hack, tweaking it a bit, and then calling for investors and marketing the living shit out of the device. Popular IoT products are toys, not tools.
Call me a curmudgeon, but I'm yet to see a coherent explanation of what IoT is supposed to do for me as a homeowner. I think "all the household IoT stuff is toys" is rather directly connected to the fact that I just don't have massive problems I need solved with the Internet in my house. Of course the resulting market is nothing but toys; there doesn't appear to be any space for non-toys.
(I see the commercial and civil IoT possibilities, but an awful lot of them involve being able to monitor and somewhat control things that are physically very dispersed out in the real world. I don't have a house that big.)
(I see the commercial and civil IoT possibilities, but an awful lot of them involve being able to monitor and somewhat control things that are physically very dispersed out in the real world. I don't have a house that big.)
While some IoT project probably are just toys, the reason you have yet to see what IoT is supposed to do for you is because you're looking at it from the wrong perspective.
IoT is about finding some sort of just-shiny-enough bauble - that may or may not have an actual useful purpose - that you find interesting enough to buy without paying attention to the data you're handing over to some company. Occasionally you will find more traditional vendor lock-in plan, but these "smart"/IoT devices usually use some amount of surveillance-as-a-business-model.
Sure, there are lots of possibilities. We have barely begun to explore what is possible with {,inter}networks. I'm sure there really is a lot of very interesting ways to mix traditional products and network access. For now, though, like any new technology, the market is mostly misguided designs, scams, and safety risks.
IoT is about finding some sort of just-shiny-enough bauble - that may or may not have an actual useful purpose - that you find interesting enough to buy without paying attention to the data you're handing over to some company. Occasionally you will find more traditional vendor lock-in plan, but these "smart"/IoT devices usually use some amount of surveillance-as-a-business-model.
Sure, there are lots of possibilities. We have barely begun to explore what is possible with {,inter}networks. I'm sure there really is a lot of very interesting ways to mix traditional products and network access. For now, though, like any new technology, the market is mostly misguided designs, scams, and safety risks.
Eh... there's some value, it's just really badly implemented currently.
A selling idea of the Nest is that it keeps your house warm when you're there, and not-frozen when you're not, and it will do so efficiently, so that the house is warm when you arrive home but not long before.
Now of course you can just turn up the heating as you walk in the door wait a few minutes to heat up, it won't hurt. But if technology can do it reliably, there's clearly some value. Compare, for instance, lighting a candle when you get home with just flicking the switch for those newfangled electric lights. The candle works but the technology is more convenient.
Of course, electricity doesn't give you failwhales these days, and there's a bit more engineering involved than "move fast and break things."
A selling idea of the Nest is that it keeps your house warm when you're there, and not-frozen when you're not, and it will do so efficiently, so that the house is warm when you arrive home but not long before.
Now of course you can just turn up the heating as you walk in the door wait a few minutes to heat up, it won't hurt. But if technology can do it reliably, there's clearly some value. Compare, for instance, lighting a candle when you get home with just flicking the switch for those newfangled electric lights. The candle works but the technology is more convenient.
Of course, electricity doesn't give you failwhales these days, and there's a bit more engineering involved than "move fast and break things."
The problem isn't that "some value" can't be extracted. The problem is that the value that can be extracted is bounded by my actual problems. Nest can't fundamentally transform my house heating experience into some sort of delight; at the absolute limit, all it could possibly do is cut my heating bill down to $0. Which would be amazing, but it can't do that, of course.
Other IoT possibilities I see tossed about have even worse possibilities; Nest is probably already the biggest possible winner. If you eliminate 100% of the time I spend turning lights on and off, you've basically had no impact on my life. If you design a glorious IoT refrigerator that somehow requires 0 additional time out of my life to feed it data (which is a negative) it still has to face up to the fact that my "display" showing me what I have which I can get to by simply opening the door is superior to any practical front-mounted display. There's very little room for any sort of IoT water-use optimizer, certainly nothing a startup could wedge into and make money. What can the IoT do for my washer and dryer, play tunes off of Pandora while I'm loading them? My cell can already do that.
I don't need an Internet of Things. I need a Robot of doing Things, and if it's hooked up to the internet I rather expect we'll still see it as "a robot" rather than "an IoT device". (I don't think I want my robot live hooked up to the internet anyhow.)
And just to be clear, I'll say again I totally get it for commercial and civil use, so I'm not just down on IoT in general. (I'm down on IoT security in general, but that's a separate problem. Sort of. Close enough for now anyhow.) It just seems to me that the vast bulk of the IoT story involves being not physically proximal to the IoT device (and, indeed, note how the core Nest use case of "turning off the heat when you are not there" fits that to a T), and therefore, unless you live in a mansion, it's solving a problem a homeowner mostly doesn't have.
Other IoT possibilities I see tossed about have even worse possibilities; Nest is probably already the biggest possible winner. If you eliminate 100% of the time I spend turning lights on and off, you've basically had no impact on my life. If you design a glorious IoT refrigerator that somehow requires 0 additional time out of my life to feed it data (which is a negative) it still has to face up to the fact that my "display" showing me what I have which I can get to by simply opening the door is superior to any practical front-mounted display. There's very little room for any sort of IoT water-use optimizer, certainly nothing a startup could wedge into and make money. What can the IoT do for my washer and dryer, play tunes off of Pandora while I'm loading them? My cell can already do that.
I don't need an Internet of Things. I need a Robot of doing Things, and if it's hooked up to the internet I rather expect we'll still see it as "a robot" rather than "an IoT device". (I don't think I want my robot live hooked up to the internet anyhow.)
And just to be clear, I'll say again I totally get it for commercial and civil use, so I'm not just down on IoT in general. (I'm down on IoT security in general, but that's a separate problem. Sort of. Close enough for now anyhow.) It just seems to me that the vast bulk of the IoT story involves being not physically proximal to the IoT device (and, indeed, note how the core Nest use case of "turning off the heat when you are not there" fits that to a T), and therefore, unless you live in a mansion, it's solving a problem a homeowner mostly doesn't have.
Honestly, I agree, and I love having my house low-tech and simple. The best solution is avoiding the problem altogether.
But your argument can be advanced against electric light. I could do just fine with candles in my house. But in 2016 I'm not going to go back to candles, even if electricity isn't really saving me that much time or money.
Imagine in 2050 never having to turn on the lights again because they will turn on automatically and that will work well. Never deal with carrying things and reaching over with your elbow. It won't add more than $200 of value to your life, but will you actively opt out of it?
It's not that "IoT" will make your life vastly more efficient and save you tons of money. It's that when it's easy enough and good enough, it will become the new normal as mains electricity is now. Currently it's a buggy gadget, but so was every technology once.
But your argument can be advanced against electric light. I could do just fine with candles in my house. But in 2016 I'm not going to go back to candles, even if electricity isn't really saving me that much time or money.
Imagine in 2050 never having to turn on the lights again because they will turn on automatically and that will work well. Never deal with carrying things and reaching over with your elbow. It won't add more than $200 of value to your life, but will you actively opt out of it?
It's not that "IoT" will make your life vastly more efficient and save you tons of money. It's that when it's easy enough and good enough, it will become the new normal as mains electricity is now. Currently it's a buggy gadget, but so was every technology once.
Another thing that you can do is tracking which products you have in your fridges, freezers and cupboards – and when you want to know where something is, you can just do "Jarvis, do we have another bottle of ketchup?" – "Yes, it’s in Kitchen Cupboard Number 2 Left"
In fact, I’ve actually designed something similar to that, but a lot simpler. A simple barcode scanner where you check in new products you buy, and check out products you throw away.
In fact, I’ve actually designed something similar to that, but a lot simpler. A simple barcode scanner where you check in new products you buy, and check out products you throw away.
"A simple barcode scanner where you check in new products you buy, and check out products you throw away."
Your homework, before you start too far down this road, is to start doing that right now if you haven't already. You don't even need a real scanner; just pretend with a stapler or something vaguely the right shape and weight. You should also go through your cupboards and just scan everything once to simulate the initial load. Then, I don't know whether you mean to design this for yourself or for selling to others, but if it's the latter, consider whether your customers will actually do this for any period of time. I'd also recommend faceoffs between two people, one pretending realistically to ask your system where something is (either literally typing it in somewhere or doing real-enough voice recognition that you can see the correct query came out), and one just looking. Even if I don't know your kitchen, if it's at all sensibly laid out and you give me a quick look around first, decent odds I still beat your system finding something on average, even if it's not my kitchen.
If you completely eliminate 100% of the time in a year that I spend looking for kitchen goods that I don't know where they are, you've brought me maybe $20/year in value total; if you make me scan everything going in and out, I'd pay at least $200/year not to do that. (Probably more if I really faced that problem.)
(If this is just a personal project, go nuts. Very educational, lots of valuable skill building involved, and it's always good to scratch an itch with it. But if you have any ideas of making money with it, then I suggest taking it seriously and doing some heavy market research and proofing before the tech.)
Your homework, before you start too far down this road, is to start doing that right now if you haven't already. You don't even need a real scanner; just pretend with a stapler or something vaguely the right shape and weight. You should also go through your cupboards and just scan everything once to simulate the initial load. Then, I don't know whether you mean to design this for yourself or for selling to others, but if it's the latter, consider whether your customers will actually do this for any period of time. I'd also recommend faceoffs between two people, one pretending realistically to ask your system where something is (either literally typing it in somewhere or doing real-enough voice recognition that you can see the correct query came out), and one just looking. Even if I don't know your kitchen, if it's at all sensibly laid out and you give me a quick look around first, decent odds I still beat your system finding something on average, even if it's not my kitchen.
If you completely eliminate 100% of the time in a year that I spend looking for kitchen goods that I don't know where they are, you've brought me maybe $20/year in value total; if you make me scan everything going in and out, I'd pay at least $200/year not to do that. (Probably more if I really faced that problem.)
(If this is just a personal project, go nuts. Very educational, lots of valuable skill building involved, and it's always good to scratch an itch with it. But if you have any ideas of making money with it, then I suggest taking it seriously and doing some heavy market research and proofing before the tech.)
I actually have built it in about an hour, weeks ago.
The situation was this: Was at home, had no idea what was in the cupboard. So I scanned everything with the app.
I stopped using it, mainly because scanning via phone is far slower than via a real scanner, and I don’t want to spend money. And because my parents always ignored it anyway.
But I’ll start using it after I move out ;)
The situation was this: Was at home, had no idea what was in the cupboard. So I scanned everything with the app.
I stopped using it, mainly because scanning via phone is far slower than via a real scanner, and I don’t want to spend money. And because my parents always ignored it anyway.
But I’ll start using it after I move out ;)
> A simple barcode scanner where you check in new products you buy, and check out products you throw away.
I tinkered with something like this too in my app; but not for where things are, I already have pre-defined homes for things.
Instead I was more worried about food going bad before I ate it. but I backed away from it, mainly because barcodes don't carry expiration data. Instead, my app knows whats on my shopping list, and send me an email afterwards that lets me +1 my inventory of something, which ties into a general expiration for that product (like milk is ~week) and then sends me emails when something I bought is close to expiring. For milk it's not such a problem, but other things I buy and forget.
I tinkered with something like this too in my app; but not for where things are, I already have pre-defined homes for things.
Instead I was more worried about food going bad before I ate it. but I backed away from it, mainly because barcodes don't carry expiration data. Instead, my app knows whats on my shopping list, and send me an email afterwards that lets me +1 my inventory of something, which ties into a general expiration for that product (like milk is ~week) and then sends me emails when something I bought is close to expiring. For milk it's not such a problem, but other things I buy and forget.
Fortunately, for most of the food one can buy, "expriation date" is just a manufacturer's suggestion, a date past which they "don't guarantee the intended taste and quality". Nothing to do with actual food safety - you can eat quite a lot of things safely months past their expiration date.
That's how a lot of actual medical devices work.
I worked on an anesthesia machine where the control systems were implemented with micro controllers and RTOS. The UI was Windows Embedded running on a separate x86 board and the whole thing would still safely operate even if the UI subsystem crashed. There were completely mechanical backup controls too.
I worked on an anesthesia machine where the control systems were implemented with micro controllers and RTOS. The UI was Windows Embedded running on a separate x86 board and the whole thing would still safely operate even if the UI subsystem crashed. There were completely mechanical backup controls too.
On the other hand, then you get people who've no idea about network security doing things, so a lose-lose situation.
It was never great, and it's been worse and worse since Google bought them. Examples of some issues with mine:
1. It doesn't honor DHCP lease expiration [1]. It will happily keep using its IP without renewing its lease. I've had situations where it's gone long enough without a lease renewal that another device has received its old IP and caused a conflict.
2. It constantly disassociates from the AP, and decides to come back on the network when it feels like it, not when there is traffic for it. And note, this is with a constantly powered device, so there should be no power saving causing it to power down. Also, the AP is about 6 feet away and there are zero other WiFi issues. Manually kicking the device off the AP causes it to come back immediately.
3. Their backend goes down all the time, usually for 1-2 hours.
4. They had a perfectly working method for turning heating on in advance of your setpoint with the goal of reaching your desired temperature at that time rather than just turning on at that time. Then they broke it [2]. This led to nice surprises like waking up to a completely cold house. Instead of rolling back the broken code, they refused to respond on the aforementioned thread for well over a month.
It's really inexplicable. They have nice industrial design, good brand recognition, no shortage of money behind them, and they screw up at every conceivable turn.
I'm going to try out the ecobee thermostat because I very much appreciate the convenience of being able to remotely adjust the temperature.
[1]: https://community.nest.com/thread/10316 [2]: https://community.nest.com/thread/11438
1. It doesn't honor DHCP lease expiration [1]. It will happily keep using its IP without renewing its lease. I've had situations where it's gone long enough without a lease renewal that another device has received its old IP and caused a conflict.
2. It constantly disassociates from the AP, and decides to come back on the network when it feels like it, not when there is traffic for it. And note, this is with a constantly powered device, so there should be no power saving causing it to power down. Also, the AP is about 6 feet away and there are zero other WiFi issues. Manually kicking the device off the AP causes it to come back immediately.
3. Their backend goes down all the time, usually for 1-2 hours.
4. They had a perfectly working method for turning heating on in advance of your setpoint with the goal of reaching your desired temperature at that time rather than just turning on at that time. Then they broke it [2]. This led to nice surprises like waking up to a completely cold house. Instead of rolling back the broken code, they refused to respond on the aforementioned thread for well over a month.
It's really inexplicable. They have nice industrial design, good brand recognition, no shortage of money behind them, and they screw up at every conceivable turn.
I'm going to try out the ecobee thermostat because I very much appreciate the convenience of being able to remotely adjust the temperature.
[1]: https://community.nest.com/thread/10316 [2]: https://community.nest.com/thread/11438
"It's really inexplicable. They have nice industrial design, good brand recognition, no shortage of money behind them, and they screw up at every conceivable turn."
Ipso Facto. They can't not screw it up.
A critical component of infrastructure should not be IP addressable. It should not be "on your wifi". It should not have a login or a password. It should be as dumb as possible and as simple as possible - and as anti-fragile to all of these events as possible.
It's not possible to have this "feature set" and not have this pain. It's a fools errand to pursue it.
Ipso Facto. They can't not screw it up.
A critical component of infrastructure should not be IP addressable. It should not be "on your wifi". It should not have a login or a password. It should be as dumb as possible and as simple as possible - and as anti-fragile to all of these events as possible.
It's not possible to have this "feature set" and not have this pain. It's a fools errand to pursue it.
> It's not possible to have this "feature set" and not have this pain. It's a fools errand to pursue it.
It is possible. Their competitors seem to achieve it at the same price point to a much better degree (case in point: the British Gas myHome that I own and its newer cousin, the Hive). It helps that they don't shrug their shoulders about software bugs and in general don't roll out untested cowboy code on critical home appliances...
It is possible. Their competitors seem to achieve it at the same price point to a much better degree (case in point: the British Gas myHome that I own and its newer cousin, the Hive). It helps that they don't shrug their shoulders about software bugs and in general don't roll out untested cowboy code on critical home appliances...
Yes, it is possible:
Have a microcontroller that stores the time table for when to set which temperature, and applies it.
Have a second processor, with internet access, that updates this table.
Simple as that.
Have a microcontroller that stores the time table for when to set which temperature, and applies it.
Have a second processor, with internet access, that updates this table.
Simple as that.
It doesn't honor DHCP lease expiration
I don't know what you're using as a DCHP server, but the servers I've used try hard not to hand out the same IP address to a second device until after handing out all possible IP addresses. Which means my network would need something close to 256 different DHCP clients before having a problem.
I do have some flexibility at home because I run my own dhcpd on OpenBSD, rather than relying on something in a router. Which means extra flexibility. So I lock down the IP addresses anyway. E.g. I have entries like this in my dhcpd.conf file:
It's a little bit of hassle to set things up this way, but there are never problems even if devices are stupid about when they renew their leases.
That's not to take anything away from your comments, it's just a workaround that has worked for me. Your entire list seems like annoying problems for the Nest.
I don't know what you're using as a DCHP server, but the servers I've used try hard not to hand out the same IP address to a second device until after handing out all possible IP addresses. Which means my network would need something close to 256 different DHCP clients before having a problem.
I do have some flexibility at home because I run my own dhcpd on OpenBSD, rather than relying on something in a router. Which means extra flexibility. So I lock down the IP addresses anyway. E.g. I have entries like this in my dhcpd.conf file:
host foo {
hardware ethernet 00:1b:63:95:1c:4f;
fixed-address foo.example.com;
default-lease-time 3600;
}
It's a little bit of hassle to set things up this way, but there are never problems even if devices are stupid about when they renew their leases.
That's not to take anything away from your comments, it's just a workaround that has worked for me. Your entire list seems like annoying problems for the Nest.
Funny enough, I do this as well (OpenBSD but with dnsmasq for easier DHCP/DNS integration). At the time I was having the DHCP issue, I had my OpenBSD router behind my ISP's router in order to preserve some cable box functionality. I also kept "untrusted" devices like the Nest using that router.
I've since ditched my cable boxes and thus the ISP router and now just have untrusted devices in a separate VLAN walled off from my other networks.
I've since ditched my cable boxes and thus the ISP router and now just have untrusted devices in a separate VLAN walled off from my other networks.
I have a manual thermostat, no batteries required. It has worked flawlessly for over 30 years. It has a simple intuitive interface: a switch for "heat" or "cool" and a dial with a pointer to set the desired temperature.
Why make things more complicated than they need to be?
Why make things more complicated than they need to be?
It costs quite a bit to maintain an empty house at a comfortable temperature. It also takes a good while (order of hours) to converge on that comfortable temperature if you haven't run the HVAC in a long time and the weather is extreme.
The ubiquitous programmable thermostats do different things at night, in the morning, during the workday, and in the evening. The idea being that the temperature is allowed to drift when no one's home, but is brought back in line by the time someone is in the house again.
However they are a PITA to program (tiny cryptic LCD, 4 buttons) and basically useless if you don't follow a consistent daily routine on the weekdays. Nest's value proposition is to be smarter about when the house is actually occupied/going to be occupied. Also when you're traveling (or if you have it in a rarely-used property) you can remotely start the heat/AC when you're several hours away so that it's comfortable by the time you get there. I have none of these problems, so I don't have one, but they do solve a problem that some people really have.
The ubiquitous programmable thermostats do different things at night, in the morning, during the workday, and in the evening. The idea being that the temperature is allowed to drift when no one's home, but is brought back in line by the time someone is in the house again.
However they are a PITA to program (tiny cryptic LCD, 4 buttons) and basically useless if you don't follow a consistent daily routine on the weekdays. Nest's value proposition is to be smarter about when the house is actually occupied/going to be occupied. Also when you're traveling (or if you have it in a rarely-used property) you can remotely start the heat/AC when you're several hours away so that it's comfortable by the time you get there. I have none of these problems, so I don't have one, but they do solve a problem that some people really have.
We are talking about a manual dial here, not a programmable thermostat. "Hey it's too cold right now, better turn it up."
In fact you will save money & energy with manual control because the heating will not turn on when it's cold but you are wearing enough layers.
In fact you will save money & energy with manual control because the heating will not turn on when it's cold but you are wearing enough layers.
I know, and I'm explaining why programmability is desirable for some people.
I bought my smart thermostat (Ecobee) for a couple reasons -
1. Economic - it easily paid for itself in one summer by not running the A/C when no one is home. I have geofencing set up to do this automatically.
2. Comfort - my office/bedroom temperature is all I really care about as it's where I spend all my time. My thermostat was not wired to there, and temperatures fluctuated wildly in my office. Ecobee has remote sensors so that I can set the rooms I care about to the correct temperature.
Overall, it has certainly made my life a lot less complicated; I never have to touch the thermostat again to get comfortable in my office, and I save a lot of money too.
1. Economic - it easily paid for itself in one summer by not running the A/C when no one is home. I have geofencing set up to do this automatically.
2. Comfort - my office/bedroom temperature is all I really care about as it's where I spend all my time. My thermostat was not wired to there, and temperatures fluctuated wildly in my office. Ecobee has remote sensors so that I can set the rooms I care about to the correct temperature.
Overall, it has certainly made my life a lot less complicated; I never have to touch the thermostat again to get comfortable in my office, and I save a lot of money too.
> Why make things more complicated than they need to be?
My energy bills dropped about 30% with the Nest.
It does a number of neat things to save money, including running the AC fan through the chilled ducts for a period of time after stopping the active cooling.
For a forgetful person like me, it's also very handy to be able to turn the house into vacation mode the day after I left for vacation.
My energy bills dropped about 30% with the Nest.
It does a number of neat things to save money, including running the AC fan through the chilled ducts for a period of time after stopping the active cooling.
For a forgetful person like me, it's also very handy to be able to turn the house into vacation mode the day after I left for vacation.
Because when you forget to change the setting to heat and wake up to a 60 degree house you rush around hoping the pipes didn't freeze. Or when you set the AC to 70 because you were warm and leave to go to work and forget to set it back.
My thermostat is set to 17 degrees Celsius (62.6) Fahrenheit.
60 Fahrenheit is practically a comfortable day-long office temperature. It's a _long_ way from freezing.
60 Fahrenheit is practically a comfortable day-long office temperature. It's a _long_ way from freezing.
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If your house is 60 degrees. It didn't freeze.
If it's 60 degrees then it isn't freezing now, but it could have been lower overnight.
Heat loss is proportional to the temperature difference across the boundary (walls and windows and roof). Even when it's quite cold outside, heat loss slows down as the house gets colder, and then you still have all the phase change energy to dump before pipes freeze. This will not happen overnight except in the most extreme cases, and it certainly will not then warm back up to 60.
Anecdotally, I was once without central heat for three days in 0-20F, and nothing froze. The basement got down to 38.
Anecdotally, I was once without central heat for three days in 0-20F, and nothing froze. The basement got down to 38.
A lot of that depends on where your house is built. I have a house in an area that can go an entire winter without getting much below 40F. No one builds with "freeze-proof" faucet design, which recesses the valve to the outside water faucets within the wall.
I had two pipes freeze and burst after 3 days of freezing temperatures (first time anyone can remember being more than 24 hours below freezing). One was an outside faucet, properly protected and insulated. The other was frozen inside the slab, near the wall.
I had two pipes freeze and burst after 3 days of freezing temperatures (first time anyone can remember being more than 24 hours below freezing). One was an outside faucet, properly protected and insulated. The other was frozen inside the slab, near the wall.
When you live somewhere with actual weather, outdoor faucets are closed and drained for the winter and most of spring. There's no such thing as "freeze-proof" faucets at -30.
I've always heard that if you're leaving your home for an extended period of time in winter, you should set the thermostats to 55F to prevent freezing.
So 60F is surely fine.
So 60F is surely fine.
Because people derive value from it. It's that simple. You don't have to, and that's fine, but having the temperature settings for the house happen on a schedule that makes sense and depends on the time and day of the week can be quite useful.
And having the ability to change the temperature from my bed is nice too.
And having the ability to change the temperature from my bed is nice too.
Sure, but we've had that level of automation for decades. My Honeywell programmable thermostat has time/day scheduling with several phases per day, and different phases for the weekend. It runs off a 9V battery and I can't tell you how long the battery lasts but I _can_ tell you that it's at least 15 years.
It would be pretty rare for a 9V battery to last for 15 years of continuous operation. In my thermostat, which has features similar to yours, the battery is just for backup in case the power goes out, and the thermostat normally runs off the 24V power from the furnace circuit (it works fine if you remove the battery). It's possible that your thermostat works the same way and your battery has been dead for many years.
That could be, but even if the battery is dead or leaking the thing trucks along and works fine.
Before the Nest there was exactly one excellent thermostat user interface: the oldschool rotary GE type like you probably have. I waited many years for a good programmable equivalent, and had to endure the endless stream of crap with hard to see LCD screens and tiny confusing buttons with tiny labels so you never knew which one made the heat go up. (And which one turned off the thermostat or changed some critical setting). Nest finally delivered that, and now look at all the copycats. It's kind of similar to what happened with the iPod and iPhone.
I don't really care for the "learning" feature but the 2 other features I find critical are 1) ability to schedule, and 2) remote control.
It's nothing you really need, but it's nice to have. I can program the temp to go 10 degrees lower overnight, and have the heat ramp up 30 minutes before we get up. I can have the blower run 15 minutes every hour without heat or cooling to make sure air circulates around the house. You could do that by hand but it would be more manual and cognitive work.
I don't really care for the "learning" feature but the 2 other features I find critical are 1) ability to schedule, and 2) remote control.
It's nothing you really need, but it's nice to have. I can program the temp to go 10 degrees lower overnight, and have the heat ramp up 30 minutes before we get up. I can have the blower run 15 minutes every hour without heat or cooling to make sure air circulates around the house. You could do that by hand but it would be more manual and cognitive work.
Because unless the house is occupied 24/7, there are substantial savings to be had.
While I don't have a Nest, I put a similar timer on my water heater and saved a lot of money ($20/mo).
While I don't have a Nest, I put a similar timer on my water heater and saved a lot of money ($20/mo).
When I was a child in, my parents had a mechanical thermostat with a timer. So did my grandma, and her system was even older.
You could set two pairs of heating times, and control which (or both/none) were used. There was an override until the next set point.
This was 1980s stuff, or maybe even earlier.
The interface was far easier to use than any digital one I've seen.
You could set two pairs of heating times, and control which (or both/none) were used. There was an override until the next set point.
This was 1980s stuff, or maybe even earlier.
The interface was far easier to use than any digital one I've seen.
Yeah, even my mid 90s built house had that. It was easy to see how it worked, too—a big spinning wheel that represented the 24 hours in a day. There were little plastic arrows you'd snap onto the outside of the ring at the appropriate time. Red ones and blue ones. Each color had an indentation in a slightly different place so as the wheel spun past the "now" marker, it would flip one of two switches. The switches controlled energy saving mode.
It actually wasn't super intuitive (in cooling mode it inverted the sense of energy saving mode, if I recall correctly), but it was easy and never failed me once I set it up.
It actually wasn't super intuitive (in cooling mode it inverted the sense of energy saving mode, if I recall correctly), but it was easy and never failed me once I set it up.
They aren't necessary but they are convenient. Being able to adjust the temperature in the middle of the night is great but being able to to adjust the temperature when on vacation is awesome. It's also flexible (will automatically adjust down if people are unexpectedly away for the day) and allows you to track energy usage more easily. Does everyone need one? No. But for some people the convenience is worth the money.
Important household functions--HVAC, refrigeration--depending on internet connectivity to function properly...?
Doesn't make sense, unless you're willing to live with the potential failure of those functions...
Doesn't make sense, unless you're willing to live with the potential failure of those functions...
Why heat or cool an an empty house?
In a cold climate you want to heat the place to some minimal level such that everything in the building doesn't freeze. In hot humid climates if you don't run the AC everything will mold.
My house didn't play nicely with my Nest. I got a new Furnace and AC and had them install a Nest. It started acting weird. We replaced it with a low-tech Honeywell while trying to get it figured out. I then replaced the Nest thinking maybe it was faulty. I took a photo of the wire layout for the Honeywell and made sure I did the proper layout for the new Nest. It worked fine for a few days and then one day I came home to a 110 degree house! The Nest reported that things were 70-whatever. I then replaced it with a Wi-Fi Honeywell (not their Nest competitor) and that one has worked fine since. It was a very scary experience. I won't be trying a Nest again.
Identical experience here. Installed Honeywell RedLINK and finally my problems went away. Ditto Honeywell wireless security, also works great. There's SO MUCH crap out there, and the wave hasn't even started yet.
Wow this happened to my family. We didn't have heat for I think 5 hours. Now we are in the SF Bay so it didn't get crazy cold but I had a wife telling me to fix it and the stupid thing wouldn't come online. I chalked it up to one of the kids pulled the unit from the base plate and the battery drained.
It seems like a GIANT bug to me that the Nest won't come back online till the battery is almost fully charged.
I "fixed" it by putting our old thermostat back in then I put the nest back a few days later.
It seems like a GIANT bug to me that the Nest won't come back online till the battery is almost fully charged.
I "fixed" it by putting our old thermostat back in then I put the nest back a few days later.
Failure for a product to perform its primary function is totally unacceptable. Let me repeat: totally unacceptable. From the comments it seems they fail if they lose network connectivity? That's got to be the stupidest thing I ever heard. Apparently some "smart" TVs suffer from similar problems. Remember, there are plenty of thermostats that have NO software - just a stupid little mercury switch - and they are more reliable than this. When any product fails at it's primary function I next it.
But hey it's the Internet of THINGS! woot!
But hey it's the Internet of THINGS! woot!
I had a Nest and sold it to my brother after Google bought them and it was clear they were never going to release the rumored remote sensors. I got an ecobee instead.
The ecobee is much smarter, mostly because of the remote sensors. My house is far more comfortable. It's also nice that ecobee has an API and IFTTT support. It has no issues running normally when the internet goes down. (My internet was down completely the other night and there was -25F windchill. It followed schedule just fine.)
I'm guessing ecobee coming from Canada they know the value of a functional thermostat...
The ecobee is much smarter, mostly because of the remote sensors. My house is far more comfortable. It's also nice that ecobee has an API and IFTTT support. It has no issues running normally when the internet goes down. (My internet was down completely the other night and there was -25F windchill. It followed schedule just fine.)
I'm guessing ecobee coming from Canada they know the value of a functional thermostat...
Mine (Gen 2) died a month ago. I charged it up and reset it, and called Nest support. They sent me a replacement even though mine was working again, and included a prepaid return label.
First problem I had with mine, and it was a great support experience.
Anecdata and all. But combined with this story, makes me wonder if they replaced it because they knew it was likely to happen again.
First problem I had with mine, and it was a great support experience.
Anecdata and all. But combined with this story, makes me wonder if they replaced it because they knew it was likely to happen again.
And to close the citation loop: https://twitter.com/internetofshit is fun for people who want to roll their eyes at misbehaving smart devices.
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In line with this is the classic "It Can't Be Hushed Here" Nest bug video, by Brad Fitzpatrick from last year:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpsMkLaEiOY
[Warning: contains extremely annoying Nest smoke detectors beeping. So prepare to lower your volume]
Brad looks very annoyed and it was no fun for him, but on an artistic level it is really well done, it is an epic battle between human and machine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpsMkLaEiOY
[Warning: contains extremely annoying Nest smoke detectors beeping. So prepare to lower your volume]
Brad looks very annoyed and it was no fun for him, but on an artistic level it is really well done, it is an epic battle between human and machine.
This is why I purchased the Honeywell 9000 WiFi Color Touchscreen Thermostat[0] instead. The nice thing about the Honeywell is that you can use it completely offline if you so choose. It also has a REAL interface, so an app is an optional extra not a required component.
Both the Nest and Honeywell require the infamous C wire, both are similar installation, and both cost around $200.
[0] http://www.amazon.com/Honeywell-RTH9580WF-Touchscreen-Thermo...
PS - And, yes, the Nest has a theoretical setup without the C wire, but you'll lose key things like fan control, or if the boiler doesn't run enough the entire thing can die. On both it is ultimately C wire or don't waste your time.
Both the Nest and Honeywell require the infamous C wire, both are similar installation, and both cost around $200.
[0] http://www.amazon.com/Honeywell-RTH9580WF-Touchscreen-Thermo...
PS - And, yes, the Nest has a theoretical setup without the C wire, but you'll lose key things like fan control, or if the boiler doesn't run enough the entire thing can die. On both it is ultimately C wire or don't waste your time.
100% on the same page as you. I didn't get the Honeywell, I actually got a relatively cheap z-wave thermostat that acts like a regular ol' dumb programmable thermostat that can also be controlled by ANY z-wave compatible home automation hub (I use the Wink hub, to my sometimes chagrin).
Pretty sure my thermostat was sub $75 on Amazon.
Pretty sure my thermostat was sub $75 on Amazon.
At least among the engineers and data scientists here, are any of us really surprised? Smart devices, especially ones that learn, can certainly do better on average, but complexity adds edge cases and those worst cases can really matter. Simple things fail simply (when they fail at all).
"At the point of desire, you want more, but at the point of daily use, you want less." -John Maeda, on complexity in product design
I've also been told by people I know About Nests crashing and turning off. [edit: yes, anecdotal but it's not an unknown event] This is completely unacceptable in a Northern climate. No, it's not the only failure mode for a heating system but I have zero interest in adding another point of failure for the sake of having a cool device. Frozen pipes is a serious business.
That was my first thought; if I owned a Nest and it stopped working for 2-3 days right now where I live, I'd be in big trouble especially if I weren't home to get a space-heater to temporarily offset the issue
And don't forget those Terms of Service prevent you from getting the damage to your house fixed.
And most house insurance does not cover flooding / water damage.
And most house insurance does not cover flooding / water damage.
Why have I only heard horror stories about the Nest? I see their reviews on Amazon and I see huge problems with this product .
Mine's fine, FWIW.
My heating system (hot water baseboards) doesn't really respond quickly enough for it to be super useful for things like away detection, but as a programmable thermostat, for the most part, it works better than I expect most software to work.
My heating system (hot water baseboards) doesn't really respond quickly enough for it to be super useful for things like away detection, but as a programmable thermostat, for the most part, it works better than I expect most software to work.
Because happy users don't feel motivated to tell people everything is okay. It's a common bias which you have to constantly remind yourself to correct for.
That would make sense if there weren't plenty of other product reviews in which people are gushing about how awesome they are.
They're usually astroturfed. Some vendors will go as far as offering a small rebate to customers who leave a positive review of the product.
I would guess that probably 85% of "user-generated content" on mainstream outlets like Amazon is the result of astroturfing or other paid schemes. It's practically impossible to compete in any online marketplace without turfing the crap out of every slightly relevant outlet. Your competitors are doing it constantly, and the disadvantage will be really big if you don't play ball too.
One example: our objectively superior product with a great design and great functional foundation was substantially less popular than the dirty rip off that had their site built with cheap oDesk labor and designed with cheesy stock photos, but spent ridiculous amounts of money on SEO and fake Facebook comments. We were substantially cheaper too. There was literally no reason to ever use the other person's offering, and there was no reason for them to show up ahead of us on searches, but they did.
Don't believe Google's line of BS that to get to the top you just need to put out good content. It's total nonsense. What you need are backlinks, which are bought and laundered into a network of sites controlled by the same SEO group, and social media clout, which is bought by paying third-world contractors $1.50/hr to make fake Facebook and Twitter profiles and talk about your company.
I would guess that probably 85% of "user-generated content" on mainstream outlets like Amazon is the result of astroturfing or other paid schemes. It's practically impossible to compete in any online marketplace without turfing the crap out of every slightly relevant outlet. Your competitors are doing it constantly, and the disadvantage will be really big if you don't play ball too.
One example: our objectively superior product with a great design and great functional foundation was substantially less popular than the dirty rip off that had their site built with cheap oDesk labor and designed with cheesy stock photos, but spent ridiculous amounts of money on SEO and fake Facebook comments. We were substantially cheaper too. There was literally no reason to ever use the other person's offering, and there was no reason for them to show up ahead of us on searches, but they did.
Don't believe Google's line of BS that to get to the top you just need to put out good content. It's total nonsense. What you need are backlinks, which are bought and laundered into a network of sites controlled by the same SEO group, and social media clout, which is bought by paying third-world contractors $1.50/hr to make fake Facebook and Twitter profiles and talk about your company.
What's the ratio of happy to unhappy users? If 80% of Nest users are happy you could see twice as many positive reviews as negative and still overstate the percentage of unhappy customers.
Considering how cold it gets up here in Canada, this is scary.
Scary enough to have redundancy?
edit: I'm talking about redundant systems. A wood fireplace, for example.
You should have a backup of any form of technology you rely on to maintain your life. We regularly do it with far less critical applications.
edit: I'm talking about redundant systems. A wood fireplace, for example.
You should have a backup of any form of technology you rely on to maintain your life. We regularly do it with far less critical applications.
Can you have redundant thermostats? Though I'd note that traditional thermostats and even simple programmable ones are very reliable.
Sure, at least for traditional two-wire thermostats that turn on when the circuit is closed: connect them in parallel.
The Nest is so obviously a product designed in warm California—not anywhere that sees truly hard winter. If it were designed well, it would fail safe (furnace on). I'd rather have a hefty heating bill from my furnace running 24/7 than have all of the pipes in my house freeze and break. If I ever install a Nest or other smart thermostat, it will be in parallel to the bimetallic-strip-and-mercury-switch from forty years ago.
The Nest is so obviously a product designed in warm California—not anywhere that sees truly hard winter. If it were designed well, it would fail safe (furnace on). I'd rather have a hefty heating bill from my furnace running 24/7 than have all of the pipes in my house freeze and break. If I ever install a Nest or other smart thermostat, it will be in parallel to the bimetallic-strip-and-mercury-switch from forty years ago.
Thanks. A failsafe with a fallback to a sensible default would seem to have been a pretty basic feature. But as you say... CA.
I'm pretty sure the fail safe for a furnace should not be on and blasting. In a well insulated house (well, not CA either) you could easily get the temperature into dangerous areas with a constantly on furnace, and you don't want that happening when asleep.
The risk is the boiler remaining off when you are not around; that's the condition where massive property damage would occur (pipes freezing). If you're present, presumably you would notice a failed-safe boiler running often and address the issue. The boiler controller would preserve the safety of the system itself even if the thermostat calls for heat constantly.
In the event the house is too hot, you could open windows, leave, or if it is above freezing outside simply turn off the boiler directly. If it gets too hot while you're asleep, it's not "dangerous": you would wake up sweating. Granted, infants or the infirm may have issues, but in general they face a multitude of dangers that need special consideration or supervision.
What Nest should have really done is include an old-school analog control mechanism as the fail safe (reed switch, magnet, and a bimetallic strip?) that would maintain a safe baseline (say, 50ºF) if the "smart" controller fails.
In the event the house is too hot, you could open windows, leave, or if it is above freezing outside simply turn off the boiler directly. If it gets too hot while you're asleep, it's not "dangerous": you would wake up sweating. Granted, infants or the infirm may have issues, but in general they face a multitude of dangers that need special consideration or supervision.
What Nest should have really done is include an old-school analog control mechanism as the fail safe (reed switch, magnet, and a bimetallic strip?) that would maintain a safe baseline (say, 50ºF) if the "smart" controller fails.
I don't think it would be as simple as a high heating bill. A residential furnace is certainly not made to run 24/7. No big deal if you're at work but if you're out of town for a while...
The thermostat doesn't actually control the plant directly. It requests heat or AC by closing a connection. The HVAC controller responds to those requests as it is able to as per its programmed parameters.
You're absolutely right that furnaces aren't designed to run 24/7. But your thermostat can request heat 24/7 and unless the furnace control board is broken, it'll the cycle the system as necessary to keep up with the requests.
Most people never learn this because the systems are designed for peak needs and most days don't get anywhere near peak.
You're absolutely right that furnaces aren't designed to run 24/7. But your thermostat can request heat 24/7 and unless the furnace control board is broken, it'll the cycle the system as necessary to keep up with the requests.
Most people never learn this because the systems are designed for peak needs and most days don't get anywhere near peak.
> But your thermostat can request heat 24/7 and unless the furnace control board is broken, it'll the cycle the system as necessary to keep up with the requests.
I have a hot water boiler. Even when constantly calling for heat, I can hear the element relays click on and off to avoid over-pressuring. The recirculation pump stays on the whole time.
(I'm agreeing with you; just pointing out that my system does cut out under normal operation, while calling for heat.)
I have a hot water boiler. Even when constantly calling for heat, I can hear the element relays click on and off to avoid over-pressuring. The recirculation pump stays on the whole time.
(I'm agreeing with you; just pointing out that my system does cut out under normal operation, while calling for heat.)
Maybe you could have a thermostat in parallel that's normally set to a minimum temperature? Thermostat -> furnace communication is pretty dead simple.
I'm curious why the nest can't do exactly that. Have a simple microcontroller running a thermostat, with hard low, soft low, hard high, soft high. Then let the brain twiddle the soft low/high all it likes. If the brain goes missing, the micro just carries on brainless with the previous settings. If the brain really screws the pooch, at least the hard low can kick in somewhere before pipes burst.
It seems like a safety-net would be high-school easy, and at least let them claim they've learnt from their mistakes.
It seems like a safety-net would be high-school easy, and at least let them claim they've learnt from their mistakes.
Think about what you just said. Redundancy for a thermostat. You know, that thing that before the Nest you never even had to think about.
Perhaps not, but I have lost power for a week during a blizzard and it was nice to have a fire-place (redundancy). Disregarding the power-loss scenerio, if my any part of my HVAC system fails, I have space-heaters.
tcdent didn't say redundancy for a thermostat. For example, a fireplace and some wood is redundancy that covers both thermostat failures and power failures. If you live in dangerous weather as mentioned in the original comment, it would be stupid not to have a Plan B.
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The thermostat at my place works great. That wasn't enough to keep the heater from breaking for about a week around Thanksgiving.
Redundancy is already built into many home heating systems. My heat pump has a backup furnace for emergency heat (which is also used if it's too cold outside for the heat pump to work efficiently.)
So the hardware is solid enough -- it's just up to the thermostat to not drop the ball.
So the hardware is solid enough -- it's just up to the thermostat to not drop the ball.
I tried to put my original thermostat on top of my Nest but it doesn't fit. Do you have any tips?
Not before Nest, no. I guess so now?
I looked into this, but I quickly realised I never use my Thermostat.
My heating is controlled by a time-switch that directly enables the boiler in the morning and at night, and as far as I know this is how most people I know operate.
We do have thermostats but they are largely ignored boxes that sit in the hallway and/or landing.
Is this just something to do with living in a cold country? I would have thought a nest equivalent that directly operates the boiler would have been a better device ...
My heating is controlled by a time-switch that directly enables the boiler in the morning and at night, and as far as I know this is how most people I know operate.
We do have thermostats but they are largely ignored boxes that sit in the hallway and/or landing.
Is this just something to do with living in a cold country? I would have thought a nest equivalent that directly operates the boiler would have been a better device ...
Sounds like you have a water-pipe central heating system. You probably have thermostatic valves on each radiator, which control the flow to each radiator.
That's why the main thermostat doesn't do much.
That's why the main thermostat doesn't do much.
Yep exactly! It's pretty much standard here. So I guess the Nest is targeting people with electric heating only? Sounds like taking a "quick win" while ignoring a potentially larger market!
Nest is arrogant and obnoxious as a product. It is overrated and unnecessary. So ridiculous when you stop and think about it. If you ever scroll through the settings, it's completely laughable that this is all for a thermostat.
And all for some supposed improvement that is marginal at best. At worst, it simply doesn't work; taking over and setting some uncomfortable temperature that you never requested. My old thermostat worked just fine. Set it on exactly what I liked, so there was no need for it to "learn". I literally gave it a specific number. Don't really get the concept of wanting it to second guess me.
When I Googled and found others with similar issues, they seemed to be largely insulted on forums, as if the users were somehow unworthy of the wonderful Nest. They just hadn't invested enough time in understanding what the Nest wants.
The whole thing seems like a hoax--an elaborate parody of the times.
And all for some supposed improvement that is marginal at best. At worst, it simply doesn't work; taking over and setting some uncomfortable temperature that you never requested. My old thermostat worked just fine. Set it on exactly what I liked, so there was no need for it to "learn". I literally gave it a specific number. Don't really get the concept of wanting it to second guess me.
When I Googled and found others with similar issues, they seemed to be largely insulted on forums, as if the users were somehow unworthy of the wonderful Nest. They just hadn't invested enough time in understanding what the Nest wants.
The whole thing seems like a hoax--an elaborate parody of the times.
If the software fails this often, they really should have some sort of reversion mode with multiple watchdogs that runs on a tiny microcontroller and just keeps the temperature at 70 degrees. If they can't get that right, maybe just a hard switch that wires in a calibrated bimetalic strip to keep the wheels on until the software is fixed.
I've had a Nest for ~ 3 years now. It was a mistake. The "learning" on it is not intelligent enough to understand the idiosyncrasies of our 60 yr old house. I have to manually adjust it every day to make sure my kids are roasting/freezing in their bedrooms. I really should just switch it back to a manual thermostat.
> to make sure my kids are roasting/freezing in their bedrooms.
I'm sure it's just a grammatical mistake, but I lol'ed.
We have a lot of problems with the Nest thermostats at work. I've got a 10 year old basic thermostat at home that works exactly as it should. Follows its schedule perfectly.
No "learning" necessary.
I'm sure it's just a grammatical mistake, but I lol'ed.
We have a lot of problems with the Nest thermostats at work. I've got a 10 year old basic thermostat at home that works exactly as it should. Follows its schedule perfectly.
No "learning" necessary.
Perhaps we need to start looking at arbitration clauses the same as we see doing business with some company is some distant country. Fine when everything goes smoothly, but expect to lose your money if it doesn't.
The way to look at it is that a company with an arbitration clause might as well not be in the US.
The way to look at it is that a company with an arbitration clause might as well not be in the US.
It isn't a smart/learning thermostat, but I've been very happy with my http://www.radiothermostat.com/ CT30 - and it hasn't left me in the cold. There is a newer model now, but you can get them with a Wifi or z-wave module. It has a json API and of course that means there are free apps too.
I easily added a few controls to my own home automation system and now I can control it from anywhere and I don't need a 3rd party (other than the internet) involved. What do I like the most? Since I've set it up I haven't had to physically touch it. Programming it through json or an app is easier than the buttons on it. Now if you want a smart/learning t-stat, you'll want something else.
I easily added a few controls to my own home automation system and now I can control it from anywhere and I don't need a 3rd party (other than the internet) involved. What do I like the most? Since I've set it up I haven't had to physically touch it. Programming it through json or an app is easier than the buttons on it. Now if you want a smart/learning t-stat, you'll want something else.
After seeing this article, I noticed my Nest hadn't been "online" since December 26th.
It could not see any wifi ssid's: not mine, not my neighbors', nor my iPhone's hotspot held right next to it. It was fully charged, not sluggish -- none of the problems listed as 'typical problems'.
I went through the menu system and did a reset. I think that was a soft reboot. Still no success.
Then I found you could reset it by pushing it in for 10 seconds until it turns off. It seemed more like a hard reset, and voila -- network back up.
It's anecdotal, but this firmware update doesn't seem to be just about the charging. They seem to have messed up the wireless capabilities until a hard reset is performed.
It could not see any wifi ssid's: not mine, not my neighbors', nor my iPhone's hotspot held right next to it. It was fully charged, not sluggish -- none of the problems listed as 'typical problems'.
I went through the menu system and did a reset. I think that was a soft reboot. Still no success.
Then I found you could reset it by pushing it in for 10 seconds until it turns off. It seemed more like a hard reset, and voila -- network back up.
It's anecdotal, but this firmware update doesn't seem to be just about the charging. They seem to have messed up the wireless capabilities until a hard reset is performed.
I find these companies deeply deceptive and disingenuous which advertise IoT things (or anything that contains more than 100k lines of code) so reliable as not to warn possible consequences or offer solid fallback mechanisms.
Again? This smells like class action for negligence is coming at them this time.
Interesting. This happened to me on the fifth and I assumed it had been an isolated glitch. The steps I had to take to make the thermostat work again were quite nonintuitive, and it was frustrating at how little help there was to be found in the available documentation.
Why don't they build in a simple fail safe on the Nest?
That is, have a user settable manual switch that fails to "heat on" if there is no response from the main unit.
The house would be quite hot - but probably much less damaging than frozen pipes.
The liability costs for frozen pipes could be staggering.
That is, have a user settable manual switch that fails to "heat on" if there is no response from the main unit.
The house would be quite hot - but probably much less damaging than frozen pipes.
The liability costs for frozen pipes could be staggering.
I had been thinking of buying a Nest, now I think I'll attempt to build my own using a Raspberry Pi. There are some very inexpensive bluetooth beacons that support temperature measurement...
Does anyone have ideas for cool hardware or algorithms for something like this?
Does anyone have ideas for cool hardware or algorithms for something like this?
Digi-Key is your friend. Build yourself a daughter card with a bunch of relay driver IC's and 24VAC relays. Bare minimum is three, but there are several different arragements for home HVAC, and more doesn't hurt. Some high-SEER rating HVAC units also have multiple speeds. Say, 6-8 relays for some flexibility. Check behind your existing thermostat and see how many wires it gets to be sure.
Most units just use bang-bang control around some known limits. Something I've always wanted to try is to have a "periodic recirculation" mode for the times that I'm relying on passive solar heating, just to turn over the stratified air.
Most units just use bang-bang control around some known limits. Something I've always wanted to try is to have a "periodic recirculation" mode for the times that I'm relying on passive solar heating, just to turn over the stratified air.
Great ideas.
> Something I've always wanted to try is to have a "periodic recirculation" mode
Yes! That is one thing I want to try too.
I did an experiment in an office setting during summer where I found that if set on "auto" someone would inevitably turn the thermostat down to 65 to cool some spot that was in the sun or where the air had gotten too warm. When I switched the fan to "always on" I would set the thermostat to 70 and nobody would feel the need to adjust it.
I suppose depending on the cost of running the compressor vs the fan my approach may not have saved money, but it was interesting to see the difference in comfort offered by both.
> Something I've always wanted to try is to have a "periodic recirculation" mode
Yes! That is one thing I want to try too.
I did an experiment in an office setting during summer where I found that if set on "auto" someone would inevitably turn the thermostat down to 65 to cool some spot that was in the sun or where the air had gotten too warm. When I switched the fan to "always on" I would set the thermostat to 70 and nobody would feel the need to adjust it.
I suppose depending on the cost of running the compressor vs the fan my approach may not have saved money, but it was interesting to see the difference in comfort offered by both.
The Ecobee3 can be programmed to run the fans for a configurable amount of time every hour.
I love Nest, but this is the exact reason why I have not installed one in my mountain home. I have to keep the heater set at 55 so the pipes won't freeze and burst.
A bug like this would be financially catastrophic.
A bug like this would be financially catastrophic.
I have a mercury thermostat in the basement set to 12C directly across the thermostat leads. I live in a cold place, if the heat goes off things get damaged. You can't beat simplicity.
So how many people will use this lesson about common mode failure to re-evaluate their risk assessment of technology with a central point of failure?
Now think about all the people installing "smart" smoke detectors.
Dude, did you try rebooting your thermostat?
this is what happens when people want to keep advancing and be looked at as "superior". "wow you still have that old LG ac box, why don't you go get a nest man" if it isn't broke, don't fix it. now you get screwed. hahaha.
The furnace turns off almost immediately after changing the WiFi key once the Nest loses connectivity. At first I thought it was coincidence but now that I rotate on a strict schedule it's a joke in our office. However, what's not a joke is what happens when the internet goes down. So does our heat.
What the hell, Nest?
Relevant: https://twitter.com/internetofshit